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Charlie Kirk Today | Auron Macintyre: July 14, 2026 | Charlie Kirk Today | July 14, 2026
- We had an amazing
- 00:00:09.265 --> 00:00:11.434
- Weekend in d.c., and what a blessing
- 00:00:11.434 --> 00:00:14.337
- It was to blake, because obviously the week
- 00:00:14.337 --> 00:00:16.806
- Was super challenging.
- 00:00:16.806 --> 00:00:18.007
- In all, it was a really tough week.
- 00:00:18.007 --> 00:00:19.676
- And, you know, erica had you know, we had planned
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- Claire's chapter leadership summit in dc, long,
- 00:00:23.113 --> 00:00:26.616
- Long time ago.
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- And then the judge postponed the preliminary hearing
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- Was originally supposed to be in april, and it was in may.
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- And then it got moved to the front part of july.
- 00:00:32.856 --> 00:00:35.391
- So it just fell right in the middle of it.
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- And actually, i said this to some people, blake,
- 00:00:37.227 --> 00:00:39.696
- It ended up being, i feel like providential timing
- 00:00:39.696 --> 00:00:42.432
- Because it gave us an opportunity
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- And gave erica an opportunity to go from
- 00:00:44.934 --> 00:00:46.503
- What was a really challenging, emotional week,
- 00:00:46.503 --> 00:00:49.072
- Watching and reliving those details from that terrible day
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- To then going to be around thousands of students
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- In washington, d.c., getting to experience firsthand
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- What turning point is building all across the country,
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- Chapter by chapter, and then getting to meet them.
- 00:01:01.451 --> 00:01:03.853
- And then blake and i had the opportunity
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- To sit down for multiple roundtables
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- With high school students, with college students
- 00:01:07.790 --> 00:01:09.692
- All across the country to hear directly from them.
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- And, blake and i'm sure i'll get a chance
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- To tell you more about that, but we'll
- 00:01:14.631 --> 00:01:15.999
- Be releasing that, footage very soon.
- 00:01:15.999 --> 00:01:18.735
- In the meantime,
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- I want to play some of these clips
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- Because they're excellent from erica,
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- Who just gave such an amazing, amazing speech at cls.
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- And and by the way, just made us so proud.
- 00:01:29.312 --> 00:01:32.182
- I'm sure she made charlie so proud. stop five.
- 00:01:32.182 --> 00:01:35.985
- You do the hard thing.
- 00:01:36.452 --> 00:01:38.788
- You do the right thing.
- 00:01:38.788 --> 00:01:40.657
- And that's what my husband did every single
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- Day.
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- She's,
- 00:01:47.530 --> 00:01:49.332
- She's just really just hitting yet.
- 00:01:49.332 --> 00:01:51.701
- A home run after home run in this thing.
- 00:01:51.701 --> 00:01:53.269
- Let's go ahead.
- 00:01:53.269 --> 00:01:53.803
- Shot six. my husband
- 00:01:53.803 --> 00:01:56.706
- Built this movement.
- 00:01:57.173 --> 00:01:59.776
- He built this machine,
- 00:01:59.776 --> 00:02:02.712
- And i watched him do it.
- 00:02:03.246 --> 00:02:05.548
- And i stood by his side
- 00:02:05.548 --> 00:02:08.051
- Through every sleepless night,
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- Through every moment of concern, through every phone
- 00:02:11.020 --> 00:02:14.757
- Call, through every high, through every low of the things
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- He could control and the things he couldn't, i was there.
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- I have seen my husband build this,
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- And he has entrusted it to all of us.
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- Blake, any thoughts as we, go through these?
- 00:02:28.671 --> 00:02:31.441
- No, i just think it's
- 00:02:31.441 --> 00:02:32.775
- It really speaks to everything we're aiming to do here.
- 00:02:32.775 --> 00:02:36.779
- Last week, we considered it
- 00:02:36.779 --> 00:02:38.381
- Incredibly important, of course, to cover the hearing.
- 00:02:38.381 --> 00:02:42.185
- Make sure everyone's following that.
- 00:02:42.185 --> 00:02:43.853
- But at the same time, the work does go on.
- 00:02:43.853 --> 00:02:46.723
- And charlie's work is not being.
- 00:02:46.723 --> 00:02:50.560
- We're not pursuing charlie's work in a courtroom in utah.
- 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:52.695
- We're pursuing it across the country
- 00:02:52.695 --> 00:02:54.764
- With the young people, the high schoolers,
- 00:02:54.764 --> 00:02:57.066
- The college kids, the young adults
- 00:02:57.066 --> 00:02:59.235
- Who are trying to transform this country, revitalize
- 00:02:59.235 --> 00:03:02.739
- This country,
- 00:03:02.739 --> 00:03:03.873
- Change that, change the course of this country
- 00:03:03.873 --> 00:03:05.742
- And bring about a faith revival.
- 00:03:05.742 --> 00:03:07.010
- And you do that through the work of turning point usa.
- 00:03:07.010 --> 00:03:09.946
- And one of the key ways we do that is through our chapters
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- And through our events.
- 00:03:12.715 --> 00:03:13.616
- And you
- 00:03:13.616 --> 00:03:14.817
- Put those things together and the chapter leadership summit,
- 00:03:14.817 --> 00:03:17.854
- It was just tremendous.
- 00:03:17.854 --> 00:03:18.988
- I had a tremendous time there, not just in those panels
- 00:03:18.988 --> 00:03:22.692
- That you and i were doing, but,
- 00:03:22.692 --> 00:03:24.427
- I when we weren't doing those,
- 00:03:24.427 --> 00:03:26.329
- I tried to just wander around the floor
- 00:03:26.329 --> 00:03:28.031
- And talk to the different people.
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- And i heard so many incredible testimonies.
- 00:03:29.432 --> 00:03:31.734
- I talked to students who said i got baptized.
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- After what happened to charlie, i completely transformed
- 00:03:35.004 --> 00:03:38.207
- My life.
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- I met a person after person with testimony like that,
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- And i think it speaks immensely to erica that she spent
- 00:03:41.311 --> 00:03:45.548
- That whole exhausting week in utah and immediately turned
- 00:03:45.548 --> 00:03:48.451
- Around, flew out to run and speak at this event
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- Because that is that's what needs to get done.
- 00:03:51.854 --> 00:03:55.458
- That's that's how the work is going to be continued
- 00:03:55.458 --> 00:03:57.660
- In the years.
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- And we hope, decades to come.
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- Blake,
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- One of the things i was struck by was,
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- There was a reporter there that i spoke to briefly,
- 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.837
- And his line to me
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- Was pretty profound. he said, i just love
- 00:04:08.971 --> 00:04:10.840
- Interacting with these students.
- 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:12.608
- They are so untouched by cynicism.
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- They're so enthusiastic.
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- And i'm telling you, everybody in this audience
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- That maybe is looking at the chaos on social media
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- Or what's going on in iran or and we're going to get into,
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- You know, lindsey graham, maybe
- 00:04:26.222 --> 00:04:27.523
- Even some of the conspiracies around that story, which are
- 00:04:27.523 --> 00:04:30.626
- Which are, were inevitable, let's be honest.
- 00:04:30.626 --> 00:04:33.730
- But if you get distracted or you get discouraged,
- 00:04:33.730 --> 00:04:36.799
- If you spend some time around some turning point students,
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- It will give you hope.
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- Like you wouldn't believe.
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- It is an absolute white pill.
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- How dedicated they are.
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- They're the way they speak
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- About their faith,
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- The way they speak about, what charlie meant to them,
- 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:52.482
- What turning point means to them.
- 00:04:52.482 --> 00:04:54.016
- It is an absolute white pill.
- 00:04:54.016 --> 00:04:55.785
- And i can't wait to get those panels out, blake,
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- Because it was really fascinating.
- 00:04:59.522 --> 00:05:01.424
- You get inside the mind of a genzer.
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- And by the way, some of these high school students
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- That we talked to
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- In that one panel, blake, they're born in 2008, 2009.
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- It was incredible.
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- They were the tail end of gen z.
- 00:05:10.400 --> 00:05:12.001
- They were yeah, they're born they're born in 2008.
- 00:05:12.001 --> 00:05:14.537
- So they have they basically have no memory
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- Even of barack obama winning an election.
- 00:05:16.339 --> 00:05:19.675
- And you mentioned they're so upbeat
- 00:05:19.675 --> 00:05:21.043
- And that's so tremendous to me because i feel that
- 00:05:21.043 --> 00:05:23.980
- Nostalgia is such a big part of magnets.
- 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:26.716
- People who think, wow, america was winning so hard
- 00:05:26.716 --> 00:05:30.052
- In the 80s, in the 90s, post 911, it went downhill.
- 00:05:30.052 --> 00:05:33.956
- These are kids who never had the blessing
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- To live through it, where it just felt like
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- America was firing on all cylinders and cylinders.
- 00:05:37.226 --> 00:05:40.563
- And for them to still be so upbeat, to believe
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- So powerfully in what this country can do
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- And how we can revitalize that, that's tremendous.
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- It's such a testament to charlie.
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- I want to make sure we play
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- Another one of these erica clips,
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- Because i think
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- It really speaks to the dynamic we were going for.
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- Let's play clip it i have seen.
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- Something i will i'm
- 00:06:03.052 --> 00:06:04.220
- Still trying to unpack and put into words.
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- And someone asked me,
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- Do you still want to go to the chapter
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- Leadership summit?
- 00:06:12.295 --> 00:06:15.264
- And i sat there and i thought,
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- If you don't fight
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- For what's right.
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- I would much rather our country
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- Look like this room than the inside of that courtroom.
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- And that got it. that got a huge, cheer
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- Afterwards, which was cut off here.
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- But it really is that we want
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- We want this country to be all those kids
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- In that room who believe in faith, who believe in america,
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- Who believe that whatever challenges there are,
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- They can be overcome.
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- And i just loved this event.
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- You see so much youthful energy.
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- You see so much optimism.
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- I, i found myself awed by the people who who come out,
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- Who want to pursue charlie's legacy.
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- Are they're better people than i am. i can say,
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- And for those who are just wondering,
- 00:07:06.983 --> 00:07:09.318
- No, this is not there's no adults at this event.
- 00:07:09.318 --> 00:07:11.254
- It's just thousands of students.
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- There's no there's no nothing.
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- It's just students
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- Doing training, getting together,
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- Meeting each other,
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- Getting equipped to go back out and take their chapters
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- To the next level.
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- And it was over to the largest, chapter leadership summit
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- In turning point history.
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- So lots to be grateful for today.
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- So lots to be grateful for today.
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- We have warren mcintyre.
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- He's, a really deep thinker.
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- He's really into philosophy.
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- Is, of course, a host at the blaze.
- 00:07:46.890 --> 00:07:48.358
- Check out his stuff.
- 00:07:48.358 --> 00:07:49.426
- He's done actual interviews and debates with a man
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- That his,
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- I think, become a fascination of some on the right and larger
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- Political circles, just because he's
- 00:07:58.068 --> 00:08:00.771
- Apparently he's been described as putin's brain.
- 00:08:00.771 --> 00:08:03.373
- Now, putin loyalists will, contest that and say
- 00:08:03.373 --> 00:08:06.944
- That that's an overstatement, certainly.
- 00:08:06.944 --> 00:08:08.412
- But nevertheless, he's become, an important flashpoint
- 00:08:08.412 --> 00:08:12.282
- In this eurasian cultural bloc.
- 00:08:12.282 --> 00:08:15.886
- And i think it it can explain a lot for us, here in america,
- 00:08:15.886 --> 00:08:19.590
- As we try to understand
- 00:08:19.590 --> 00:08:21.058
- Some of the ideas that are shaping our current moment.
- 00:08:21.058 --> 00:08:23.627
- So, oren mcintyre, welcome back to the show, my friend.
- 00:08:23.627 --> 00:08:27.397
- Explain this.
- 00:08:27.764 --> 00:08:29.566
- I think we should start with alexander dugan's
- 00:08:29.566 --> 00:08:32.536
- Most seminal work, his most famous work,
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- Which is the fourth political theory.
- 00:08:34.471 --> 00:08:36.440
- Explain in broad strokes what it is so our audience can
- 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:39.309
- Understand the basic premise.
- 00:08:39.309 --> 00:08:42.312
- Sure.
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- So, andrew,
- 00:08:42.946 --> 00:08:44.081
- Alexander in is trying to find a way beyond liberalism.
- 00:08:44.081 --> 00:08:47.618
- He sees us as living
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- In a post liberal world, and he wants to find
- 00:08:48.619 --> 00:08:50.721
- A different political theory.
- 00:08:50.721 --> 00:08:52.189
- He sees liberalism as the first political theory
- 00:08:52.189 --> 00:08:55.292
- Of modernity, and then, communism and fascism
- 00:08:55.292 --> 00:08:59.162
- As the second and third political theories
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- That attempt to address the problems of liberalism.
- 00:09:01.031 --> 00:09:04.468
- He rejects liberalism,
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- But he also recognizes
- 00:09:05.535 --> 00:09:06.703
- The shortcomings of both communism and fascism.
- 00:09:06.703 --> 00:09:09.439
- And so he does something he calls
- 00:09:09.439 --> 00:09:11.375
- Breaking the hermeneutic circle,
- 00:09:11.375 --> 00:09:13.010
- Which is saying
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- He wants to discard
- 00:09:13.810 --> 00:09:14.978
- Some of the worst elements of fascism or communism,
- 00:09:14.978 --> 00:09:17.848
- And see if there are any other alternative ideas
- 00:09:17.848 --> 00:09:20.651
- That could be found inside those ideologies.
- 00:09:20.651 --> 00:09:23.253
- Once we have shorn them of the worst parts of them.
- 00:09:23.253 --> 00:09:26.456
- For him,
- 00:09:26.456 --> 00:09:27.658
- The the atheism and materialism of communism is the worst.
- 00:09:27.658 --> 00:09:30.861
- And kind of the ethnic
- 00:09:30.861 --> 00:09:32.162
- Centering in fascism is the worst,
- 00:09:32.162 --> 00:09:35.198
- And he's trying to find a way forward with those.
- 00:09:35.198 --> 00:09:37.501
- Now, the problem with this is a couple different
- 00:09:37.501 --> 00:09:41.038
- Things, but ultimately, the thing
- 00:09:41.038 --> 00:09:42.673
- You need to remember with all of dugan's work
- 00:09:42.673 --> 00:09:44.841
- Is you have to read it in the frame of a man
- 00:09:44.841 --> 00:09:47.244
- Who is first and foremost centering his eurasian project.
- 00:09:47.244 --> 00:09:51.114
- The idea that the russian
- 00:09:51.114 --> 00:09:52.783
- Empire should have a natural dominance,
- 00:09:52.783 --> 00:09:54.918
- It should be allowed to ascend
- 00:09:54.918 --> 00:09:56.286
- The west is ultimately going to have to lose ground
- 00:09:56.286 --> 00:09:59.556
- So that russia and other countries can flourish.
- 00:09:59.556 --> 00:10:02.492
- I think there is some real, genuine philosophical insights
- 00:10:02.492 --> 00:10:06.063
- In dugan's work.
- 00:10:06.063 --> 00:10:07.097
- We always have to remember either
- 00:10:07.097 --> 00:10:08.398
- You are dealing with a propagandist
- 00:10:08.398 --> 00:10:10.267
- As you are going through this,
- 00:10:10.267 --> 00:10:11.601
- You can't just read it as some kind of
- 00:10:11.601 --> 00:10:13.103
- Objective, assessment of where we are philosophically.
- 00:10:13.103 --> 00:10:18.542
- Right.
- 00:10:18.742 --> 00:10:19.676
- So basically, the fourth political move
- 00:10:19.676 --> 00:10:23.213
- In his estimation here is you had communism.
- 00:10:23.213 --> 00:10:26.817
- He rejects that. we had fascism.
- 00:10:26.817 --> 00:10:28.318
- He rejects that.
- 00:10:28.318 --> 00:10:29.419
- And then we had liberalism, which he acknowledges
- 00:10:29.419 --> 00:10:31.221
- Sort of won the 20th century.
- 00:10:31.221 --> 00:10:34.558
- And so he's saying, you know,
- 00:10:34.558 --> 00:10:36.393
- You can't
- 00:10:36.393 --> 00:10:37.661
- Fight back against liberalism without being called a fascist,
- 00:10:37.661 --> 00:10:40.030
- A fascist, basically.
- 00:10:40.030 --> 00:10:41.498
- But there is a a fourth way, if you will,
- 00:10:41.498 --> 00:10:44.101
- Which is really just third, third way position ism.
- 00:10:44.101 --> 00:10:47.104
- Actually, but he's calling it a fourth way, which is ironic.
- 00:10:47.104 --> 00:10:50.540
- You talk about the fact
- 00:10:50.540 --> 00:10:51.608
- That he is a political propagandist at his heart.
- 00:10:51.608 --> 00:10:54.745
- Why do you say that?
- 00:10:54.745 --> 00:10:57.347
- Well, if you read the fourth political theory,
- 00:10:57.347 --> 00:10:59.416
- Duke, it's not really hiding the ball.
- 00:10:59.416 --> 00:11:00.784
- He says that
- 00:11:00.784 --> 00:11:02.018
- The west must be destroyed, that america must be destroyed.
- 00:11:02.018 --> 00:11:05.155
- The man has no love for anglo civilization.
- 00:11:05.155 --> 00:11:07.924
- He sees it as something that ultimately came
- 00:11:07.924 --> 00:11:10.193
- To dominate the world and has driven nations
- 00:11:10.193 --> 00:11:12.896
- Like russia
- 00:11:12.896 --> 00:11:13.530
- Into some kind of
- 00:11:13.530 --> 00:11:14.664
- Artificial second, place, and that they should have
- 00:11:14.664 --> 00:11:17.334
- The flourishing once they're freed
- 00:11:17.334 --> 00:11:19.035
- From kind of this cage of anglo domination.
- 00:11:19.035 --> 00:11:21.772
- So it's very clear that he's very passionate
- 00:11:21.772 --> 00:11:24.708
- About his political project
- 00:11:24.708 --> 00:11:25.976
- And i think
- 00:11:25.976 --> 00:11:27.244
- The best way to look at dugan is perhaps to look at someone
- 00:11:27.244 --> 00:11:29.846
- Like machiavelli.
- 00:11:29.846 --> 00:11:30.881
- Machiavelli wrote the prince
- 00:11:30.881 --> 00:11:32.582
- Because he was looking for a job interview,
- 00:11:32.582 --> 00:11:34.384
- And because ultimately he had a project of italian,
- 00:11:34.384 --> 00:11:37.988
- Unification.
- 00:11:37.988 --> 00:11:39.256
- Everything he writes in that book is oriented
- 00:11:39.256 --> 00:11:41.958
- Towards that goal.
- 00:11:41.958 --> 00:11:43.126
- That doesn't mean there aren't
- 00:11:43.126 --> 00:11:44.227
- Certain deep insights we can draw from the prince.
- 00:11:44.227 --> 00:11:46.696
- I have read
- 00:11:46.696 --> 00:11:47.831
- A lot of machiavelli, and i use his work quite a bit,
- 00:11:47.831 --> 00:11:49.599
- But we always have to remember
- 00:11:49.599 --> 00:11:51.034
- That he is writing in that context
- 00:11:51.034 --> 00:11:52.903
- And is famously known as a teacher of evil.
- 00:11:52.903 --> 00:11:55.338
- I think we could probably, at some level, apply
- 00:11:55.338 --> 00:11:57.407
- The same frame to duke and someone who does have deep
- 00:11:57.407 --> 00:11:59.976
- Philosophical insights, but we always have to keep
- 00:11:59.976 --> 00:12:02.846
- What he is saying in that context
- 00:12:02.846 --> 00:12:05.148
- Of his project of kind of eventual russian emergence
- 00:12:05.148 --> 00:12:08.785
- After western collapse.
- 00:12:08.785 --> 00:12:11.488
- So and i
- 00:12:11.755 --> 00:12:12.823
- Want to get blake in here because this
- 00:12:12.823 --> 00:12:14.090
- Is sort of his sweet spot too.
- 00:12:14.090 --> 00:12:15.592
- But my last question is, and i
- 00:12:15.592 --> 00:12:19.129
- The reason i wanted to talk about this today, oren,
- 00:12:19.129 --> 00:12:20.964
- Is because
- 00:12:20.964 --> 00:12:22.199
- I think there is some confusion if you're just like a normie
- 00:12:22.199 --> 00:12:24.234
- American conservative, which is nothing bad, by the way.
- 00:12:24.234 --> 00:12:27.137
- We want you spending most of your time
- 00:12:27.137 --> 00:12:28.705
- Raising your family, raising
- 00:12:28.705 --> 00:12:29.940
- Your kids like volunteering at church.
- 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:32.209
- All those things teach in little league.
- 00:12:32.209 --> 00:12:34.110
- But there is like if you just kind of check
- 00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:35.745
- In on social media, like, why?
- 00:12:35.745 --> 00:12:37.314
- Why are certain movements seeming to happen? why?
- 00:12:37.314 --> 00:12:41.218
- Why are people surprising me
- 00:12:41.218 --> 00:12:42.652
- With their position on russia, for example?
- 00:12:42.652 --> 00:12:45.622
- I think i don't want to give him too much credit,
- 00:12:45.622 --> 00:12:47.991
- But i think he's a piece of the puzzle of why
- 00:12:47.991 --> 00:12:51.161
- Some of these ideas
- 00:12:51.628 --> 00:12:52.762
- That he's suggesting, because the critiques of modern
- 00:12:52.762 --> 00:12:55.365
- Liberalism are are valid in many respects.
- 00:12:55.365 --> 00:12:58.168
- Us as american conservatives would share those critiques,
- 00:12:58.168 --> 00:13:01.504
- And they can be seductive to a larger narrative
- 00:13:01.504 --> 00:13:04.808
- Or agenda that he's got.
- 00:13:04.808 --> 00:13:06.343
- He's he's so kind of break that down.
- 00:13:06.343 --> 00:13:09.145
- Like, why is it seductive, what he's saying
- 00:13:09.145 --> 00:13:11.514
- To an american conservative?
- 00:13:11.514 --> 00:13:13.550
- It's some maybe it's an influencer,
- 00:13:13.550 --> 00:13:14.951
- Maybe it's a podcaster, a think or commentary person.
- 00:13:14.951 --> 00:13:18.054
- Why is it seductive?
- 00:13:18.054 --> 00:13:19.022
- But why should we, in your
- 00:13:19.022 --> 00:13:20.624
- Opinion, reject the larger premise?
- 00:13:20.624 --> 00:13:23.026
- Well, it's seductive because
- 00:13:23.627 --> 00:13:24.594
- Frankly, dugan is right about some things.
- 00:13:24.594 --> 00:13:26.496
- He is drawing on more classic thinkers.
- 00:13:26.496 --> 00:13:29.065
- He's drawing on evolve.
- 00:13:29.065 --> 00:13:30.567
- He's drawing on, gannon, he's drawing on carl schmidt, he's
- 00:13:30.567 --> 00:13:34.638
- Drawing on oswald
- 00:13:34.638 --> 00:13:35.605
- Spengler, he's drawing on people
- 00:13:35.605 --> 00:13:37.107
- Who have made real and important insights.
- 00:13:37.107 --> 00:13:39.376
- And so some of the things
- 00:13:39.376 --> 00:13:40.377
- That he's bringing to the table
- 00:13:40.377 --> 00:13:41.778
- Are things that you do have to grapple with.
- 00:13:41.778 --> 00:13:43.947
- But like i said,
- 00:13:43.947 --> 00:13:45.148
- Ultimately this his project is one of destroying the west.
- 00:13:45.148 --> 00:13:48.318
- It is anti-american in every way.
- 00:13:48.318 --> 00:13:51.087
- He really does see america as the great satan.
- 00:13:51.087 --> 00:13:53.623
- He does see the need for it
- 00:13:53.623 --> 00:13:55.258
- To basically die in a conflagration.
- 00:13:55.258 --> 00:13:57.727
- He often uses these apocalyptic terms, you know
- 00:13:57.727 --> 00:14:01.064
- That we need kind of this in times, the destruction
- 00:14:01.064 --> 00:14:04.367
- Of america and the west, to ultimately allow these other,
- 00:14:04.367 --> 00:14:07.771
- Nations to flourish.
- 00:14:07.771 --> 00:14:09.406
- A lot of times, even though dugan will note
- 00:14:09.406 --> 00:14:11.441
- The differences between civilizations,
- 00:14:11.441 --> 00:14:13.476
- He blames the natural outcomes
- 00:14:13.476 --> 00:14:15.245
- Of their decisions on the west, as if we are somehow
- 00:14:15.245 --> 00:14:18.081
- Singularly responsible for the bad, decisions
- 00:14:18.081 --> 00:14:20.951
- And bad outcomes of other peoples way of being.
- 00:14:20.951 --> 00:14:24.321
- And so i think it's
- 00:14:24.321 --> 00:14:25.522
- Just important to remember that while those conversations
- 00:14:25.522 --> 00:14:28.024
- Can be important,
- 00:14:28.024 --> 00:14:29.059
- While that criticism can be valid
- 00:14:29.059 --> 00:14:31.127
- Because he is drawing from
- 00:14:31.127 --> 00:14:32.595
- Older thinkers that i think do have solid points,
- 00:14:32.595 --> 00:14:35.432
- Ultimately i think he's coming to a very dangerous
- 00:14:35.432 --> 00:14:38.201
- Conclusion, one which is deeply anti-eu american.
- 00:14:38.201 --> 00:14:41.371
- We can address the
- 00:14:41.371 --> 00:14:42.839
- Issues of modernity without burning down our heritage.
- 00:14:42.839 --> 00:14:46.710
- Those things do not have to coincide well, or what stands
- 00:14:46.710 --> 00:14:49.946
- Out to me is, as you said, he's super anti-american.
- 00:14:49.946 --> 00:14:53.016
- So it stands out to me that some americans,
- 00:14:53.016 --> 00:14:56.052
- They like to fixate on this guy.
- 00:14:56.052 --> 00:14:57.587
- I think they like to find philosophers
- 00:14:57.587 --> 00:14:59.422
- Who are aggressively outside america's orbit.
- 00:14:59.422 --> 00:15:03.326
- And yet, at the same time, he seems to me like someone for
- 00:15:03.326 --> 00:15:05.762
- Someone who's supposedly outside america,
- 00:15:05.762 --> 00:15:07.731
- He's totally guided to me by currents that are in
- 00:15:07.731 --> 00:15:13.069
- Western, in american, in our ideological stuff.
- 00:15:13.069 --> 00:15:18.842
- And he just
- 00:15:18.842 --> 00:15:19.909
- He just takes the position of america's terrible
- 00:15:19.909 --> 00:15:21.945
- Using the justifications they provide.
- 00:15:21.945 --> 00:15:24.114
- This is one and we can get into this in the next segment.
- 00:15:24.114 --> 00:15:26.716
- He just tweeted this the other day,
- 00:15:26.716 --> 00:15:28.351
- The very concept of success is deeply immoral.
- 00:15:28.351 --> 00:15:31.888
- If you are successful, the other is a loser.
- 00:15:31.888 --> 00:15:35.025
- We shouldn't accept it.
- 00:15:35.025 --> 00:15:36.226
- We should prosper or suffer together.
- 00:15:36.226 --> 00:15:38.628
- Otherwise it is satanic that.
- 00:15:38.628 --> 00:15:41.431
- Honestly, that just sounds like he could be the court
- 00:15:41.431 --> 00:15:43.400
- Philosopher for like zoran mamdani, he could be the court
- 00:15:43.400 --> 00:15:47.037
- Philosopher for any radical leftist.
- 00:15:47.037 --> 00:15:50.540
- Basically just sounds like communism.
- 00:15:50.540 --> 00:15:52.208
- And so it's funny to me that this would appeal to anyone
- 00:15:52.208 --> 00:15:55.912
- In america.
- 00:15:56.246 --> 00:15:57.380
- Well, i just don't see anyone on the american, right?
- 00:15:57.380 --> 00:16:00.817
- No, this is what you what you just got to blake
- 00:16:00.817 --> 00:16:03.586
- Is super important.
- 00:16:03.586 --> 00:16:04.654
- Let's let's pick that up on the other
- 00:16:04.654 --> 00:16:05.989
- Side of the break, oren.
- 00:16:05.989 --> 00:16:07.190
- Because i think what blake's getting at
- 00:16:07.190 --> 00:16:08.625
- Is actually the core of the appeal,
- 00:16:08.625 --> 00:16:10.226
- But the also in congruency with this whole ideology.
- 00:16:10.226 --> 00:16:14.364
- So hang right there.
- 00:16:14.364 --> 00:16:18.005
- So hang right there.
- 00:16:18.005 --> 00:16:27.511
- All right.
- 00:16:27.812 --> 00:16:28.479
- So we were talking about this.
- 00:16:28.479 --> 00:16:29.980
- And let's just throw this this tweet up here.
- 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:32.616
- The very concept of success is deeply immoral.
- 00:16:32.616 --> 00:16:35.052
- If you are successful. the other is is a loser.
- 00:16:35.052 --> 00:16:37.555
- We shouldn't accept it.
- 00:16:37.555 --> 00:16:38.923
- We should prosper or suffer together.
- 00:16:38.923 --> 00:16:40.458
- Otherwise it is satanic.
- 00:16:40.458 --> 00:16:42.860
- This doesn't sound like a fourth way.
- 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:44.562
- That's just sounds like, you know,
- 00:16:44.562 --> 00:16:46.697
- A communist rehash or something. or.
- 00:16:46.697 --> 00:16:48.966
- And how is this seductive?
- 00:16:48.966 --> 00:16:52.169
- I think that, again, it's very,
- 00:16:52.803 --> 00:16:56.107
- Attractive to people because they're a lot of do good stuff.
- 00:16:56.107 --> 00:17:00.511
- Does attack that decadence of modernity.
- 00:17:00.511 --> 00:17:03.314
- It does have realistic and, and, reasonable
- 00:17:03.314 --> 00:17:07.685
- Criticisms of certain aspect of modern society.
- 00:17:07.685 --> 00:17:10.821
- But his prescriptions can often be very terrible,
- 00:17:10.821 --> 00:17:13.991
- As we see here.
- 00:17:13.991 --> 00:17:14.859
- One of the things that dugan
- 00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:15.993
- Does is take the idea, from martin heidegger of design
- 00:17:15.993 --> 00:17:19.797
- And apply it to individual, civilizations.
- 00:17:19.797 --> 00:17:22.566
- And he believes that
- 00:17:22.566 --> 00:17:23.534
- All of these individual civilizational designs
- 00:17:23.534 --> 00:17:26.103
- Are the same and have the same value in the same worth, that
- 00:17:26.103 --> 00:17:29.874
- We can't judge each other because we do not have
- 00:17:29.874 --> 00:17:32.209
- Each other's experiences.
- 00:17:32.209 --> 00:17:33.911
- This is, if it sounds like postmodernism
- 00:17:33.911 --> 00:17:36.247
- To people, in many ways it is.
- 00:17:36.247 --> 00:17:37.815
- It's a kind of a synthesis
- 00:17:37.815 --> 00:17:39.183
- Of traditionalism and postmodernism, some
- 00:17:39.183 --> 00:17:41.519
- Which i think, again, lures a lot of people in
- 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:43.621
- Because they hear the traditionalism,
- 00:17:43.621 --> 00:17:44.989
- They see the critiques, they feel that,
- 00:17:44.989 --> 00:17:46.557
- You know, to be correct.
- 00:17:46.557 --> 00:17:47.958
- But then ultimately they get let down.
- 00:17:47.958 --> 00:17:50.561
- Some of these sideways
- 00:17:50.561 --> 00:17:51.562
- Paths to pass that are ultimately
- 00:17:51.562 --> 00:17:53.664
- Very influenced by things like critical theory.
- 00:17:53.664 --> 00:17:55.432
- If you read the fourth, political theory,
- 00:17:55.432 --> 00:17:57.368
- It has chapters on why basically you need to abolish
- 00:17:57.368 --> 00:18:00.504
- The differences between genders and why you can't, you know,
- 00:18:00.504 --> 00:18:03.307
- You have to abolish the evils of racism across the world.
- 00:18:03.307 --> 00:18:06.577
- So these are in the fourth political theory.
- 00:18:06.577 --> 00:18:08.546
- They aren't just in the man's tweets.
- 00:18:08.546 --> 00:18:10.014
- It's always been a part of his philosophy.
- 00:18:10.014 --> 00:18:13.050
- Interesting.
- 00:18:13.384 --> 00:18:14.285
- Here's another tweet from him.
- 00:18:14.285 --> 00:18:16.887
- The tradition is the east eastern christianity
- 00:18:16.887 --> 00:18:20.024
- Is tradition.
- 00:18:20.024 --> 00:18:21.325
- Western christianity is modernized.
- 00:18:21.325 --> 00:18:23.561
- The far west christianity.
- 00:18:23.561 --> 00:18:25.563
- Protestantism is more modern than simply western
- 00:18:25.563 --> 00:18:28.265
- Christianity, which he labels as catholicism.
- 00:18:28.265 --> 00:18:30.801
- The west is the track is the thrash of history,
- 00:18:30.801 --> 00:18:33.904
- The black hole in the bottom of reality.
- 00:18:33.904 --> 00:18:37.441
- I. i also have to just point out here
- 00:18:38.275 --> 00:18:40.744
- That his whole worldview is putting sort of philosopher
- 00:18:40.744 --> 00:18:43.547
- Kings, guys like him at the very top of the,
- 00:18:43.547 --> 00:18:47.451
- Hierarchy in, in a civilization,
- 00:18:47.451 --> 00:18:50.421
- This multi-polar civilizational world
- 00:18:50.421 --> 00:18:52.289
- That he's, he's advocating for with eurasia as a single
- 00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:55.159
- Singular bloc, he would be the ruler of said civilization.
- 00:18:55.159 --> 00:18:59.129
- So that's something to always keep in mind.
- 00:18:59.129 --> 00:19:01.131
- Now you've met this guy or at least interviewed him.
- 00:19:01.131 --> 00:19:04.902
- I don't know if it was, you know, over zoom or something.
- 00:19:04.902 --> 00:19:08.005
- Right. but you did a debate with him.
- 00:19:08.005 --> 00:19:09.974
- What did you perceive in that debate?
- 00:19:09.974 --> 00:19:12.676
- Is he quick on his feet?
- 00:19:12.676 --> 00:19:14.111
- Did he was he able to answer criticisms of his philosophy?
- 00:19:14.111 --> 00:19:17.615
- Whether well or not.
- 00:19:17.615 --> 00:19:19.917
- So interestingly, i have both interviewed him,
- 00:19:20.884 --> 00:19:22.886
- And then i was able to arrange a debate between him
- 00:19:22.886 --> 00:19:25.222
- And another philosopher by the name of nick land.
- 00:19:25.222 --> 00:19:27.324
- People who are on twitter
- 00:19:27.324 --> 00:19:28.559
- Have probably seen him post, pretty regularly.
- 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.795
- But it was a very interesting discussion.
- 00:19:31.795 --> 00:19:34.131
- I think, again, i don't think dugan is stupid.
- 00:19:34.131 --> 00:19:36.700
- I think it's it's
- 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:37.901
- It's a poor it's a bad idea to underestimate your enemy
- 00:19:37.901 --> 00:19:41.305
- On this one.
- 00:19:41.305 --> 00:19:42.406
- He is a very intelligent guy.
- 00:19:42.406 --> 00:19:44.108
- However, when he was in that debate
- 00:19:44.108 --> 00:19:45.743
- Between, himself and nick land,
- 00:19:45.743 --> 00:19:48.512
- It was very interesting because.
- 00:19:48.512 --> 00:19:49.747
- Because nick land is in many ways a hyper anglo philosopher,
- 00:19:49.747 --> 00:19:53.250
- He is extremely interested in the west
- 00:19:53.250 --> 00:19:55.452
- And believes in the mission of the west,
- 00:19:55.452 --> 00:19:57.087
- And perhaps a way that many people
- 00:19:57.087 --> 00:19:58.856
- Are not as serious when it comes to a kind of a
- 00:19:58.856 --> 00:20:01.225
- Hyper modern, understanding of the west
- 00:20:01.225 --> 00:20:03.227
- As where dugan was very much a eastern traditionalist.
- 00:20:03.227 --> 00:20:05.663
- And so
- 00:20:05.663 --> 00:20:06.897
- They're the clashing between the two was very interesting.
- 00:20:06.897 --> 00:20:08.432
- I found that
- 00:20:08.432 --> 00:20:09.500
- While dugan was intelligent and was able to defend
- 00:20:09.500 --> 00:20:11.735
- Many of his positions,
- 00:20:11.735 --> 00:20:12.803
- It did seem like land was operating
- 00:20:12.803 --> 00:20:14.672
- At a higher level, that ultimately
- 00:20:14.672 --> 00:20:16.206
- There were several times where, he kind of ran into a barrier
- 00:20:16.206 --> 00:20:19.443
- And i think that land, very much got the best of him.
- 00:20:19.443 --> 00:20:21.979
- I did not debate him directly, because i think nick
- 00:20:21.979 --> 00:20:24.048
- Land is a much more intelligent guy who,
- 00:20:24.048 --> 00:20:25.916
- Can bring those criticisms and those questions,
- 00:20:25.916 --> 00:20:28.218
- Far more sharply than i can.
- 00:20:28.218 --> 00:20:30.187
- But if people want to catch that,
- 00:20:30.187 --> 00:20:31.789
- It is an absolutely fascinating discussion.
- 00:20:31.789 --> 00:20:34.291
- And i think we'll help you understand a little bit of
- 00:20:34.291 --> 00:20:36.994
- Where the differences are between these two worldviews.
- 00:20:36.994 --> 00:20:40.531
- So, oren, i don't know that
- 00:20:40.531 --> 00:20:42.466
- Too many of our listeners are going to race out and
- 00:20:42.466 --> 00:20:44.735
- And read this guy's books,
- 00:20:44.735 --> 00:20:45.969
- But so that they can understand him better, maybe.
- 00:20:45.969 --> 00:20:49.206
- What's a good takeaway if you encounter
- 00:20:49.206 --> 00:20:52.409
- A podcaster is into this an ex post or who's into this?
- 00:20:52.409 --> 00:20:56.480
- Just someone in real life
- 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:57.548
- Who's an enthusiast for for for dugan,
- 00:20:57.548 --> 00:21:01.085
- Who's american,
- 00:21:01.452 --> 00:21:02.453
- This guy who wants to basically destroy america.
- 00:21:02.453 --> 00:21:04.455
- What's it maybe indicate about them, for lack of a
- 00:21:04.455 --> 00:21:08.025
- Better word?
- 00:21:08.025 --> 00:21:09.927
- Well, i
- 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:11.228
- Think that again, the fact that there are truths
- 00:21:11.228 --> 00:21:13.797
- In dugan's work does make it attractive to people.
- 00:21:13.797 --> 00:21:16.600
- I don't think it's ridiculous to find insights. there.
- 00:21:16.600 --> 00:21:18.769
- I have personally found insights
- 00:21:18.769 --> 00:21:20.304
- In dugan's work that are helpful,
- 00:21:20.304 --> 00:21:22.106
- But ultimately we have to remember again
- 00:21:22.106 --> 00:21:25.042
- That the frame is always one of,
- 00:21:25.042 --> 00:21:27.244
- You know, the western imperialism is evil.
- 00:21:27.244 --> 00:21:29.179
- It is going to crush
- 00:21:29.179 --> 00:21:29.980
- All societies. it must be defeated.
- 00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:32.015
- The united states must be destroyed.
- 00:21:32.015 --> 00:21:33.817
- And you ultimately cannot side with that just because someone
- 00:21:33.817 --> 00:21:36.353
- Has some, insights into something important
- 00:21:36.353 --> 00:21:39.356
- Doesn't mean that they're right.
- 00:21:39.356 --> 00:21:40.624
- You know, karl marx was right,
- 00:21:40.624 --> 00:21:41.859
- That there were some issues with capitalism, that,
- 00:21:41.859 --> 00:21:44.561
- The alienation of labor ultimately does cause,
- 00:21:44.561 --> 00:21:47.431
- Certain impacts on people that are negative.
- 00:21:47.431 --> 00:21:49.767
- However, his solution is horrific
- 00:21:49.767 --> 00:21:51.902
- And killed
- 00:21:51.902 --> 00:21:52.569
- Hundreds of millions of people
- 00:21:52.569 --> 00:21:54.171
- And absolutely has to be rejected.
- 00:21:54.171 --> 00:21:56.106
- And i would see dugan very much as a similar light.
- 00:21:56.106 --> 00:21:59.243
- It's a guy who has certain insights.
- 00:21:59.243 --> 00:22:01.278
- And you can you can find those insights outside of dugan.
- 00:22:01.278 --> 00:22:04.114
- Remember, most of his stuff
- 00:22:04.114 --> 00:22:05.182
- Is synthesizing other people's work.
- 00:22:05.182 --> 00:22:07.451
- So there are plenty of thinkers he's drawing from that
- 00:22:07.451 --> 00:22:09.386
- You can look at and understand
- 00:22:09.386 --> 00:22:11.121
- Without necessarily having to go to dugan.
- 00:22:11.121 --> 00:22:13.557
- And if even if you do redo again,
- 00:22:13.557 --> 00:22:15.259
- You should always remember that
- 00:22:15.259 --> 00:22:16.660
- He's ultimately an enemy of your civilization.
- 00:22:16.660 --> 00:22:19.029
- And no matter what, no matter what, you know, critiques
- 00:22:19.029 --> 00:22:21.765
- He has that might have some important insight.
- 00:22:21.765 --> 00:22:24.668
- Ultimately, you can never, ever side
- 00:22:24.668 --> 00:22:26.970
- With the solutions
- 00:22:26.970 --> 00:22:28.005
- That the man has because they are directly aimed
- 00:22:28.005 --> 00:22:30.574
- At destroying your own civilization.
- 00:22:30.574 --> 00:22:32.075
- You should never become a traitor
- 00:22:32.075 --> 00:22:33.777
- To your own civilization, even if there are some problems
- 00:22:33.777 --> 00:22:36.947
- When we should be trying to renew our civilization,
- 00:22:36.947 --> 00:22:39.950
- Not destroy it.
- 00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:42.186
- Yeah.
- 00:22:42.419 --> 00:22:43.220
- And our critiques are more pointed
- 00:22:43.220 --> 00:22:44.154
- At radical progressivism,
- 00:22:44.154 --> 00:22:45.823
- Radical egalitarianism, where, you know,
- 00:22:45.823 --> 00:22:48.125
- Everybody gets the same outcome in life.
- 00:22:48.125 --> 00:22:49.460
- We don't agree
- 00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:50.561
- With those things less so with liberalism, which is,
- 00:22:50.561 --> 00:22:54.598
- You know, our tradition in the west,
- 00:22:54.598 --> 00:22:56.166
- Which is, you know, the individual matters.
- 00:22:56.166 --> 00:22:59.403
- Yeah.
- 00:22:59.636 --> 00:23:00.637
- I think you can go into a hyper individualist
- 00:23:00.637 --> 00:23:02.673
- Worldview and materialism and all these things
- 00:23:02.673 --> 00:23:04.908
- Can be very destructive as well.
- 00:23:04.908 --> 00:23:06.109
- And i think the bible answers so much of that.
- 00:23:06.109 --> 00:23:08.245
- We are part of a community, a community of faith.
- 00:23:08.245 --> 00:23:10.481
- We are brothers and sisters in christ.
- 00:23:10.481 --> 00:23:12.483
- We are not hyper individuals, but we have individual rights
- 00:23:12.483 --> 00:23:15.552
- Enshrined in our constitution. that's a beautiful thing.
- 00:23:15.552 --> 00:23:18.055
- Or in mcintyre.
- 00:23:18.055 --> 00:23:18.822
- Check out his show
- 00:23:18.822 --> 00:23:20.023
- And check out his alexander duggan debates and interviews.
- 00:23:20.023 --> 00:23:22.493
- That's fascinating. thank you. warren.
- 00:23:22.493 --> 00:23:22.493
