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Charlie Kirk Today | Jacob Siegel: April 15, 2026 | Charlie Kirk Today | April 15, 2026
- So we have lots of catholic news.
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- We're in a stacey's point right now with the blockade.
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- We're in day two.
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- It does seem like most vessels are being blocked from,
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- That area around iran.
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- There's about, two dozen ports,
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- Maybe up to 30 iranian ports that are being blocked
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- Right now, which does hold long term significance.
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- We will get into that as we know more.
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- But vessels are being turned away.
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- So as we're in this stasis in the middle east,
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- We want to turn our attention to some of this action
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- That's happening
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- With on multiple fronts now, not just between
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- President trump and the pope, but with some of the cardinals.
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- And now he's also the pope has visited algeria,
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- Which comes with a whole bunch of added controversy.
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- And since you are the resident catholic here, blake,
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- Let's let you, take it away.
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- It really, really, it's just a bad day for me.
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- It's a bad day.
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- It's always annoying when catholic leaders
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- Are making me frustrated, but it's inevitable.
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- It's a big tent. it's a big church.
- 00:01:08.324 --> 00:01:09.893
- So we were talking a lot
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- About the pope, what he said about the conflict in iran.
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- He was saying,
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- God doesn't listen to the prayers of those who wage war.
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- And then the president said some stuff
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- Critical of the pope, said he was soft on crime,
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- And we didn't get to another topic
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- That i think
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- Is equally important, which is, we have a set of cardinals.
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- Now, there are
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- The cardinals are the senior clergy of the catholic church.
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- They elect the pope.
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- There are several, about almost 200 of them around the world.
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- There are 17 of them in the united states.
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- But three of them went and did an interview
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- With 60 minutes on sunday where they were saying stuff
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- Just very overtly critical, not just
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- They weren't just complaining about the war,
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- They were even complaining about immigration enforcement
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- In this country.
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- And i'll be frank, that annoys me a good bit,
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- Because it's one thing to say we should promote peace.
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- Christianity's always promoted peace.
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- It's one thing to weigh in on something
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- Like something so clearcut as for example, abortion
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- Or assisted suicide, where the church has always held
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- The same view on that for 2000 years.
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- But there are, unfortunately, christian leaders
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- Who have come along and they've adopted this view
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- That did not exist 100 years ago.
- 00:02:21.264 --> 00:02:23.066
- Certainly did not exist 2000 years ago,
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- That it's actually immoral for nations to have borders.
- 00:02:25.335 --> 00:02:28.471
- So we want to play some clips from that.
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- So this is one of those cardinals, cardinal joseph
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- Tobin.
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- And he's complaining about ice doing their job.
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- Let's play clip number ten.
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- This past january, cardinal tobin called immigration
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- And customs enforcement, or ice, a lawless organization.
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- Cardinal.
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- Those are strong words to call ice a lawless organization.
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- Yeah. why did you do that?
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- I didn't say that they were people without law.
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- But when people act in this way,
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- When they have to hide their identities, to terrify people,
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- When they can actually violate other guarantees
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- Of our constitution and bill of rights.
- 00:03:07.977 --> 00:03:10.713
- Well, i think somebody has got a call.
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- I don't i'm not the only one.
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- Oh, man, i have so many notes, so many thoughts.
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- It's first of all, first of all, the masks, mr.
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- Cardinal,
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- Are because they're getting doxed
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- And their lives are getting threatened.
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- Second of all, what about your criticisms
- 00:03:25.795 --> 00:03:29.499
- For the protesters, the agitators, those who run
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- Kamikaze missions
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- With their cars, trying to run over ice agents.
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- Any any thoughts about that?
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- And by the way,
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- Blake, again, you are my you are my cover today.
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- But but it just it strikes me because, you know, the
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- Some of the same allegations not to deviate too far
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- From what you're talking about here
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- Are leveled at the pope himself because, you know, here
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- He is in algeria, which is a predominantly muslim country,
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- And he hasn't visited nigeria where the, you know,
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- 7000 christians have been mass, massacred in recent years.
- 00:03:59.929 --> 00:04:04.233
- I mean, up to 50,000 since 2009.
- 00:04:04.233 --> 00:04:08.071
- Well, so it's this selective outrage that i find
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- Just the most troubling because then it just smacks of bias.
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- Oh, well, cognitive dissonance.
- 00:04:15.645 --> 00:04:17.413
- Well, yeah, we can be frank.
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- The pope runs a globe,
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- He oversees a global organization.
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- There is a limit to everything he can, certainly where
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- He can travel, everything he can say.
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- But that emphasizes the point you're making, which is you
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- Create a narrative by what you choose
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- To emphasize the most, what you choose to talk about.
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- Even with algeria now, there actually are
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- There are persecuted christians in algeria.
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- They are a small minority of a few thousand.
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- And the pope did talk about that.
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- There have been martyrs in algeria
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- Within the last 30 years.
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- But at the same time, yeah, if he's going to broadcast loudly
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- That immigration enforcement
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- Is a problem, but not the fact that, for example, in algeria,
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- In algeria, churches get shut down by the government
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- Pretty often they find excuses to hinder christian worship.
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- In algeria, christian proselytizing is illegal.
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- They have convicted people of this within the last decade.
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- And when you're not talking as much about that,
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- Not as loudly about that, but you're very loudly,
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- For example, having church leaders say,
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- Members of a country's government and forcing
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- That country's long standing immigration laws are a problem.
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- We have another clip from that
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- That i want to make sure we play, let's play clip number.
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- Is that 11 one of the busiest stretches
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- Of the southern border for illegal crossings?
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- I feel it got to a point where it was getting out of control
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- Under biden.
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- Underbite. yes.
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- You believe in strong borders?
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- Yeah.
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- So what's wrong, then, with the current policy?
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- This is a round up of people throughout the country.
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- People who have been living good, strong,
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- Nice, been here a long time, raise their children here, mean
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- They're just born here.
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- And our citizens.
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- That's what our objection is.
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- I would like to know what catholics feel about this
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- Indiscriminate mass deportation.
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- I think that it's very clear the american people are saying,
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- We really didn't vote for this.
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- That really upsets me
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- Because that is that is bad moral leadership from
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- You're in a senior position, you should know better.
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- It is not indiscriminate. what it is is
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- It is an enforcement of our country's laws.
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- And you know what's actively immoral?
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- Enforcing laws
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- Only for some people and ignoring them for others. and
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- This weird waffling where he says, well,
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- It was out of control under biden, but i don't
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- I don't like how it looks now.
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- They're grabbing people who are who are inside the country.
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- You're not standing up for the laws of this country.
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- If you wanted to be a good leader, you might say,
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- Hey, parishioners,
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- You shouldn't break america's laws to come here.
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- You should try to come here legally the way
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- Millions of other people in this country did.
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- You can still go to mass in your home.
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- Countries like this is not an attack
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- By the trump administration on the church.
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- It's so frustrating to see this.
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- I know charlie would always call out
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- Bad pastors, among, protestant christians.
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- I think it's our duty
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- To call out bad cardinals among the catholics.
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- Well, and it strikes me, blake, that he'll call out ice,
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- I think, falsely false accusations against him, but
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- Says nothing about, you know, illegal sex trafficking
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- And the murdering
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- Of american citizens at the hands of illegals.
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- So the doj has released a 800 page report
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- How the biden administration and the biden doj
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- Were targeting pro-lifers, many of whom are catholic,
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- Simply for their views that are long standing church
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- Positions on life and and unborn babies.
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- But you don't see a lot of noise being made about that.
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- So that makes me wonder.
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- Again, the selective outrage is very, very frustrating.
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- And again, i'm not a catholic.
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- Blake, you are catholic.
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- Putting president trump's beef with pope leo aside,
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- These are massive, massive, glaring inconsistencies.
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- And i think they need to be called out. and
- 00:08:01.270 --> 00:08:05.007
- And i think they need to be called out. and
- 00:08:05.007 --> 00:08:10.422
- I'm very excited about this next guest.
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- It's a topic i think will be very interesting.
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- So i want us to welcome jacob siegel.
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- He is an editor at tablet magazine,
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- And he's also the author of a new book called
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- The information state politics
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- In the age of total control.
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- Jacob, welcome to the program.
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- Thanks for having me.
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- Good to be here.
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- All right. let's dive right into it.
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- That's a very ominous cover.
- 00:08:37.949 --> 00:08:39.384
- Looks a lot like a cover of a kafka novel at a glance.
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- I'm guessing that's deliberate.
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- What is what is the information state?
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- It's a new kind of political regime
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- That rules not through the consent of the governed,
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- In the way that we expect a democracy to rule.
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- It doesn't rule through the formal procedures of law
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- And constitutional, procedure.
- 00:09:02.474 --> 00:09:05.310
- Instead, it it rules through control of digital code.
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- So it essentially moves decision making power
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- From the recognizable centers, that we know from the
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- The framers intention from the history of america.
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- It takes sovereignty and decision
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- Making power from there and relocates it
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- Essentially into the digital infrastructure.
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- So deep banking is an example
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- Of how the information state exercises power
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- Mass information operations, mass censorship.
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- All of these are the sort of tools
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- Of the trade of what i'm saying is
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- Really not just an abuse of government power,
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- But an entirely new kind of political regime
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- That's coming into being.
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- And we're watching it be born now.
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- Yeah.
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- And i guess as laid out, you know, i looked through
- 00:09:53.458 --> 00:09:55.760
- A summary of the book and it looks like
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- We're kind of seeing what we were warned about
- 00:09:58.496 --> 00:10:01.132
- 25 years ago with the launch of the war
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- On terrorism, with the patriot act.
- 00:10:03.034 --> 00:10:04.903
- We started to get concerned about extremism, online
- 00:10:04.903 --> 00:10:09.307
- Terrorist activities, online, tracking those things online.
- 00:10:09.307 --> 00:10:13.378
- And now we're seeing it turn around where
- 00:10:13.378 --> 00:10:16.948
- There built like the hunt for terrorists
- 00:10:16.948 --> 00:10:19.718
- Abroad has turned into this hunt
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- For terrorists in the united states.
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- And that's turned into,
- 00:10:22.754 --> 00:10:24.055
- As you say,
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- Deep banking, but also especially in
- 00:10:24.889 --> 00:10:26.458
- The censorship apparatus. correct?
- 00:10:26.458 --> 00:10:29.194
- Yeah.
- 00:10:29.427 --> 00:10:29.861
- That's right.
- 00:10:29.861 --> 00:10:30.228
- And there
- 00:10:30.228 --> 00:10:31.396
- Really is a straight line from this massive expansion
- 00:10:31.396 --> 00:10:34.466
- Of surveillance powers and not only governmental
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- Surveillance powers.
- 00:10:37.302 --> 00:10:38.570
- You know, the patriot act was part of it.
- 00:10:38.570 --> 00:10:40.805
- But what also happened after 9/11
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- Is that the social media companies
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- And the telecommunications companies
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- Were essentially turned into kind of private
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- Surveillance units that were doing the work
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- That the government couldn't do
- 00:10:52.350 --> 00:10:54.119
- Because it was unconstitutional.
- 00:10:54.119 --> 00:10:55.887
- So they were pulling all of this data in.
- 00:10:55.887 --> 00:10:58.389
- They were harvesting this data through programs like prism
- 00:10:58.389 --> 00:11:02.127
- That we found out about through the snowden leaks.
- 00:11:02.127 --> 00:11:05.196
- And so the entire commercial side of the internet was also
- 00:11:05.196 --> 00:11:09.267
- Essentially functioning as a kind of mass dragnet.
- 00:11:09.267 --> 00:11:13.404
- Now, what ended up happening after the war on terror
- 00:11:13.404 --> 00:11:16.574
- Started to wind down
- 00:11:16.574 --> 00:11:17.842
- As it entered its second decade,
- 00:11:17.842 --> 00:11:19.677
- Was that entire apparatus for surveillance,
- 00:11:19.677 --> 00:11:22.881
- Counterterrorism was redirected from targets
- 00:11:22.881 --> 00:11:26.718
- Abroad to targets at home, so that huge machinery
- 00:11:26.718 --> 00:11:30.755
- Of repression and surveillance started to get targeted
- 00:11:30.755 --> 00:11:34.993
- Against americans inside of the united states,
- 00:11:34.993 --> 00:11:38.263
- First through programs
- 00:11:38.263 --> 00:11:39.497
- Like what was called countering violent extremism
- 00:11:39.497 --> 00:11:42.300
- That were monitoring the internet for extremist
- 00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:44.736
- Behavior in the us, ostensibly tied to terrorism.
- 00:11:44.736 --> 00:11:47.939
- And then finally, through this,
- 00:11:47.939 --> 00:11:50.074
- New counter disinformation establishment.
- 00:11:50.074 --> 00:11:53.144
- All right.
- 00:11:53.444 --> 00:11:54.546
- And so this counter disinformation establishment,
- 00:11:54.546 --> 00:11:56.581
- Can you describe what it is?
- 00:11:56.581 --> 00:11:57.782
- Because in
- 00:11:57.782 --> 00:11:58.950
- A sense, from the book, it's not even just government.
- 00:11:58.950 --> 00:12:01.052
- It's almost this it's this alliance that exists
- 00:12:01.052 --> 00:12:03.855
- Between government agencies like the fbi,
- 00:12:03.855 --> 00:12:06.958
- But also this ngo blob complex.
- 00:12:06.958 --> 00:12:10.929
- And that's a very important part of this information state.
- 00:12:10.929 --> 00:12:13.631
- Correct?
- 00:12:13.631 --> 00:12:15.333
- Yeah. that's right.
- 00:12:15.333 --> 00:12:16.167
- Because right now, as i'm saying,
- 00:12:16.167 --> 00:12:18.903
- There's this new thing coming into being,
- 00:12:18.903 --> 00:12:20.572
- Which is this kind of
- 00:12:20.572 --> 00:12:21.906
- Informational power that essentially takes over,
- 00:12:21.906 --> 00:12:25.343
- Governs through control of the digital platforms.
- 00:12:25.343 --> 00:12:28.847
- But, you know, we still have a constitution
- 00:12:28.847 --> 00:12:30.815
- In the united states. there's still laws
- 00:12:30.815 --> 00:12:33.084
- That prohibit spying on american citizens.
- 00:12:33.084 --> 00:12:35.954
- And so the government is aware that it can't carry out
- 00:12:35.954 --> 00:12:38.456
- All of these functions it might like to carry out.
- 00:12:38.456 --> 00:12:41.459
- And so it outsources this work through ngos,
- 00:12:41.459 --> 00:12:44.729
- Through these sort
- 00:12:44.729 --> 00:12:45.763
- Of, cutouts that it creates, and it establishes
- 00:12:45.763 --> 00:12:48.967
- These convoluted institutional networks.
- 00:12:48.967 --> 00:12:52.837
- And this really it kicked into high gear in 2016
- 00:12:52.837 --> 00:12:57.809
- With the creation of something called the global engagement
- 00:12:57.809 --> 00:13:00.812
- Center, which obama chartered just as he was leaving office.
- 00:13:00.812 --> 00:13:05.183
- And it was really the premier government,
- 00:13:05.183 --> 00:13:08.119
- Run counter disinformation establishment.
- 00:13:08.119 --> 00:13:11.089
- But the way it worked in its own mission statement
- 00:13:11.089 --> 00:13:13.958
- Was not just to carry out
- 00:13:13.958 --> 00:13:15.526
- Actions on its own as a federal agency,
- 00:13:15.526 --> 00:13:18.429
- It was to affect what it called the whole of society effort.
- 00:13:18.429 --> 00:13:22.467
- So the whole purpose was to align
- 00:13:22.467 --> 00:13:25.470
- Different powerful institutions, what they called
- 00:13:25.470 --> 00:13:28.072
- Stakeholder institutions across american society.
- 00:13:28.072 --> 00:13:32.410
- You know, that could be media, it could be
- 00:13:32.410 --> 00:13:34.112
- Financial institutions, universities, etc.
- 00:13:34.112 --> 00:13:37.048
- Get all of them on the same page.
- 00:13:37.048 --> 00:13:39.684
- Get all of them bought into this new mandate,
- 00:13:39.684 --> 00:13:43.288
- To not only counter foreign disinformation,
- 00:13:43.288 --> 00:13:46.958
- But this expanding laundry list of bad forms of information.
- 00:13:46.958 --> 00:13:51.329
- So foreign disinformation grew to domestic misinformation,
- 00:13:51.329 --> 00:13:56.401
- Which then eventually included mal information,
- 00:13:56.401 --> 00:13:59.871
- Which became an actual term within, another government
- 00:13:59.871 --> 00:14:03.841
- Agency called cisa
- 00:14:03.841 --> 00:14:05.543
- Under the department of
- 00:14:05.543 --> 00:14:06.477
- Homeland security, made part of its mission
- 00:14:06.477 --> 00:14:09.480
- Monitoring the internet for mal information,
- 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.317
- Which referred to true statements, factually correct
- 00:14:12.317 --> 00:14:15.787
- Statements that were perceived to cause harm.
- 00:14:15.787 --> 00:14:19.524
- Can you give us examples of that mal information?
- 00:14:19.524 --> 00:14:21.960
- And was this actually censored, suppressed, i suppose.
- 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.563
- What are some good examples of that?
- 00:14:25.563 --> 00:14:27.065
- So mal information could include somebody
- 00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:30.335
- Questioning the efficacy of, coronavirus vaccines.
- 00:14:30.335 --> 00:14:34.739
- It could include somebody questioning, climate change,
- 00:14:34.739 --> 00:14:38.109
- Climate change skepticism, opposition to,
- 00:14:38.109 --> 00:14:41.846
- The war in ukraine, opposition to the withdrawal
- 00:14:41.846 --> 00:14:45.249
- From afghanistan.
- 00:14:45.249 --> 00:14:46.351
- All of these were on the list of issues
- 00:14:46.351 --> 00:14:49.387
- That the, not both the government agencies,
- 00:14:49.387 --> 00:14:53.157
- And the related institutions that were working
- 00:14:53.157 --> 00:14:55.259
- With it, like the election integrity partnership
- 00:14:55.259 --> 00:14:58.029
- And, other sort of related ngos,
- 00:14:58.029 --> 00:15:01.165
- These were the kinds of narratives
- 00:15:01.165 --> 00:15:02.934
- That they were monitoring that they they in coordination
- 00:15:02.934 --> 00:15:06.637
- With the social media companies, were looking at.
- 00:15:06.637 --> 00:15:09.474
- It's very hard to say
- 00:15:09.474 --> 00:15:10.508
- Exactly how many posts online were censored.
- 00:15:10.508 --> 00:15:14.145
- You know, i went to washington, dc.
- 00:15:14.145 --> 00:15:16.314
- I interviewed more than a dozen people who worked
- 00:15:16.314 --> 00:15:19.684
- Directly on this kind of thing, and i didn't get a single,
- 00:15:19.684 --> 00:15:23.488
- You know, solid estimate from anybody.
- 00:15:23.488 --> 00:15:26.324
- It just in the millions is all anyone could tell me,
- 00:15:26.324 --> 00:15:29.761
- Because there were deliberate firewalls created between
- 00:15:29.761 --> 00:15:33.464
- The social media companies and the sort of ngo
- 00:15:33.464 --> 00:15:36.801
- Partners and the federal agencies.
- 00:15:36.801 --> 00:15:39.604
- So it was set up in such a way that they were trying to,
- 00:15:39.604 --> 00:15:44.042
- Create a denial of liability for everybody involved.
- 00:15:44.042 --> 00:15:47.445
- Now, some of this came out
- 00:15:47.445 --> 00:15:48.980
- Through the twitter files and other reporting.
- 00:15:48.980 --> 00:15:51.582
- But just to give you an example of how it worked, you know,
- 00:15:51.582 --> 00:15:54.819
- If, for example, the election integrity partnership informed
- 00:15:54.819 --> 00:15:59.390
- The social media platforms, twitter, facebook
- 00:15:59.390 --> 00:16:01.959
- That they were concerned about a particular narrative online,
- 00:16:01.959 --> 00:16:05.963
- They didn't necessarily need to then tell facebook
- 00:16:05.963 --> 00:16:09.634
- Or twitter every post that they wanted censored.
- 00:16:09.634 --> 00:16:12.603
- Yeah, the social media platform could just dial it down
- 00:16:12.603 --> 00:16:15.273
- On its own. yeah, it's a suppress the visibility.
- 00:16:15.273 --> 00:16:17.442
- It's a it's sort of a perfect censorship machine
- 00:16:17.442 --> 00:16:19.677
- Because you just say, oh, that's the government.
- 00:16:19.677 --> 00:16:22.513
- We're concerned about this.
- 00:16:22.513 --> 00:16:24.115
- We dislike it.
- 00:16:24.115 --> 00:16:25.316
- And they do all of the censorship for you,
- 00:16:25.316 --> 00:16:28.186
- But it's not ordered.
- 00:16:28.186 --> 00:16:29.253
- So, you know, it's not violating the first amendment.
- 00:16:29.253 --> 00:16:31.389
- I want to dive more into this in the next segment.
- 00:16:31.389 --> 00:16:33.224
- So stick there for a second. jacob.
- 00:16:33.224 --> 00:16:37.015
- So stick there for a second. jacob.
- 00:16:37.015 --> 00:16:42.108
- The information state.
- 00:16:42.575 --> 00:16:44.343
- I want to take an excerpt from this.
- 00:16:44.343 --> 00:16:45.978
- It's getting at one
- 00:16:45.978 --> 00:16:47.146
- Of the most extreme cases of this censorship apparatus
- 00:16:47.146 --> 00:16:50.950
- That is exists indirectly in american life.
- 00:16:50.950 --> 00:16:54.120
- And everyone's going to remember this story
- 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:56.388
- On the eve of the 2020 presidential race,
- 00:16:56.388 --> 00:16:58.791
- The new york times published a frontal attack
- 00:16:58.791 --> 00:17:01.160
- On the principle of free speech.
- 00:17:01.160 --> 00:17:02.962
- On the cover of its sunday magazine.
- 00:17:02.962 --> 00:17:04.763
- There was an essay,
- 00:17:04.763 --> 00:17:05.865
- The first amendment in the age of disinformation.
- 00:17:05.865 --> 00:17:08.901
- The other side is author
- 00:17:08.901 --> 00:17:10.069
- Emily bazelon, a graduate of yale law school,
- 00:17:10.069 --> 00:17:13.038
- Made, the case basically that free speech only
- 00:17:13.038 --> 00:17:17.209
- Three free speech threatens democracy as much as it also
- 00:17:17.209 --> 00:17:20.846
- Provides for its flourishing.
- 00:17:20.846 --> 00:17:23.616
- And just days after this article came out,
- 00:17:23.616 --> 00:17:26.719
- We got the hunter biden laptop story.
- 00:17:26.719 --> 00:17:29.822
- And if you've forgotten
- 00:17:29.822 --> 00:17:31.157
- How heavily that was suppressed, we've heard a lot
- 00:17:31.157 --> 00:17:33.559
- That the intel agents, i believe, 50 of them, came out
- 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.662
- And said
- 00:17:36.662 --> 00:17:37.763
- This shows the hallmarks of russian disinformation.
- 00:17:37.763 --> 00:17:39.999
- But it wasn't just that
- 00:17:39.999 --> 00:17:40.933
- They smeared it as disinformation on facebook.
- 00:17:40.933 --> 00:17:43.969
- You were not allowed not merely not to post the article.
- 00:17:43.969 --> 00:17:46.805
- You could not
- 00:17:46.805 --> 00:17:48.207
- Message the article to people in a private message.
- 00:17:48.207 --> 00:17:51.977
- The new york post had its twitter account blocked
- 00:17:51.977 --> 00:17:55.314
- Because they were publishing a true story that their reporter
- 00:17:55.314 --> 00:17:59.084
- Had research.
- 00:17:59.084 --> 00:18:00.085
- This this is really the this is the information
- 00:18:00.085 --> 00:18:02.087
- State as you're describing it in full flower.
- 00:18:02.087 --> 00:18:04.123
- It's government and ngos and news publications
- 00:18:04.123 --> 00:18:07.993
- Creating this miasma that just justifies
- 00:18:07.993 --> 00:18:10.262
- The suppression of true information.
- 00:18:10.262 --> 00:18:12.498
- Isn't that correct?
- 00:18:12.498 --> 00:18:14.200
- Yeah, that's absolutely correct.
- 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:15.434
- And it's actually even worse than that,
- 00:18:15.434 --> 00:18:17.403
- In the sense that the fbi had obtained
- 00:18:17.403 --> 00:18:21.540
- Those laptops in i believe it's december of 2019.
- 00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:26.412
- So four months prior to the scandal over
- 00:18:26.412 --> 00:18:30.482
- The laptops becoming public,
- 00:18:30.482 --> 00:18:32.218
- They were in the fbi's possession,
- 00:18:32.218 --> 00:18:33.752
- Which means that the bureau
- 00:18:33.752 --> 00:18:35.454
- Had already certified that they were authentic.
- 00:18:35.454 --> 00:18:37.890
- They knew that they weren't russian plants of some sort.
- 00:18:37.890 --> 00:18:41.126
- And yet the fbi went to the social media platforms
- 00:18:41.126 --> 00:18:45.531
- Prior to the leaked, documents based on the the laptops
- 00:18:45.531 --> 00:18:50.803
- And prior to the new york post reporting on the laptops,
- 00:18:50.803 --> 00:18:54.173
- And told the social media companies,
- 00:18:54.173 --> 00:18:56.642
- Hey, we expect there to be another russian
- 00:18:56.642 --> 00:18:59.245
- Hack and dump operation in the lead up to the election.
- 00:18:59.245 --> 00:19:02.681
- This time we think it's going to target hunter biden.
- 00:19:02.681 --> 00:19:05.551
- So the fbi actually colluded
- 00:19:05.551 --> 00:19:08.520
- In what was really an information operation
- 00:19:08.520 --> 00:19:11.357
- To suppress legitimate reporting on the laptops,
- 00:19:11.357 --> 00:19:15.060
- Despite knowing that the laptops were authentic
- 00:19:15.060 --> 00:19:18.230
- Because they were in the fbi's possession.
- 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:21.166
- Outrageous, outrageous.
- 00:19:21.667 --> 00:19:22.868
- But let's follow up to, i guess, the obvious question.
- 00:19:22.868 --> 00:19:26.272
- So they've built this apparatus and it managed to exist
- 00:19:26.272 --> 00:19:30.909
- Throughout, frankly, the first trump administration,
- 00:19:30.909 --> 00:19:33.145
- Even though it was often actively hostile to it.
- 00:19:33.145 --> 00:19:35.447
- And this apparatus still exists in our government.
- 00:19:35.447 --> 00:19:38.217
- How do we go about breaking this information state?
- 00:19:38.217 --> 00:19:41.453
- How do we
- 00:19:41.453 --> 00:19:42.288
- How do we take it apart and bring back
- 00:19:42.288 --> 00:19:45.090
- Normal functioning media environment,
- 00:19:45.090 --> 00:19:47.126
- Normal functioning information environment?
- 00:19:47.126 --> 00:19:49.161
- How do we get us free?
- 00:19:49.161 --> 00:19:50.129
- As we were in the 1990s?
- 00:19:50.129 --> 00:19:53.132
- Well, i think when we're on the internet,
- 00:19:53.132 --> 00:19:55.734
- All of our data is being harvested from us.
- 00:19:55.734 --> 00:19:58.804
- It's free as it's leaving us, right?
- 00:19:58.804 --> 00:20:01.373
- We don't get anything for it.
- 00:20:01.373 --> 00:20:02.875
- As we're producing this data, it's treated as if it's free,
- 00:20:02.875 --> 00:20:06.578
- But then it's bundled in ways that monetize it.
- 00:20:06.578 --> 00:20:09.715
- So it becomes extremely valuable.
- 00:20:09.715 --> 00:20:11.884
- And because there's this sort of mass data
- 00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:14.153
- Harvesting at scale, it makes it possible to create
- 00:20:14.153 --> 00:20:18.257
- These sort of manipulated mass media environments.
- 00:20:18.257 --> 00:20:22.027
- Now, if you had to actually pay
- 00:20:22.027 --> 00:20:24.897
- People for their data that you're using,
- 00:20:24.897 --> 00:20:27.866
- I think it would disincentive of a lot of the collection
- 00:20:27.866 --> 00:20:31.637
- Of data, which would disincentivize
- 00:20:31.637 --> 00:20:34.440
- Some of these mass surveillance, efforts.
- 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.743
- And that in turn,
- 00:20:37.743 --> 00:20:38.577
- It would have a kind of cascade effect
- 00:20:38.577 --> 00:20:40.512
- Where it would also disincentivize censorship
- 00:20:40.512 --> 00:20:43.282
- Because the censorship relies on the mass surveillance.
- 00:20:43.282 --> 00:20:45.684
- So essentially creating something like a property
- 00:20:45.684 --> 00:20:48.921
- Rights structure for people's data is a step
- 00:20:48.921 --> 00:20:52.057
- In the right direction.
- 00:20:52.057 --> 00:20:53.225
- The other thing i would say, and, you know,
- 00:20:53.225 --> 00:20:55.694
- I sort of i come at this less in the sense of,
- 00:20:55.694 --> 00:20:58.464
- Immediate political solutions and more in terms
- 00:20:58.464 --> 00:21:02.634
- Of what i think is wrong with the environment
- 00:21:02.634 --> 00:21:05.304
- In a kind of bigger picture way,
- 00:21:05.304 --> 00:21:07.072
- Because the policy stuff is just not my specialty.
- 00:21:07.072 --> 00:21:11.076
- But i would say
- 00:21:11.076 --> 00:21:11.744
- In a big picture sense,
- 00:21:11.744 --> 00:21:13.045
- One of the things that the internet has done
- 00:21:13.045 --> 00:21:15.447
- And that social media has done is that it's really erode
- 00:21:15.447 --> 00:21:18.517
- Did national borders and boundaries.
- 00:21:18.517 --> 00:21:21.420
- So if you're somebody who believes in border enforcement,
- 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:24.590
- We have to carry that same sensibility over to online
- 00:21:24.590 --> 00:21:28.093
- Spaces.
- 00:21:28.093 --> 00:21:29.161
- We have to think about what does it mean to create
- 00:21:29.161 --> 00:21:32.965
- An environment on social media, for instance,
- 00:21:32.965 --> 00:21:36.368
- Where americans can enter into a political conversation
- 00:21:36.368 --> 00:21:39.171
- With other americans?
- 00:21:39.171 --> 00:21:40.139
- That's not going to be
- 00:21:40.139 --> 00:21:41.673
- Inundated by people who are not americans.
- 00:21:41.673 --> 00:21:44.009
- Stepping into that political conversation,
- 00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:46.378
- I think x has taken a good step in that direction by,
- 00:21:46.378 --> 00:21:50.382
- You know, adding to the user data
- 00:21:50.382 --> 00:21:53.285
- Of posters on that site where they're posting from.
- 00:21:53.285 --> 00:21:56.221
- But there's more that can be done in that direction.
- 00:21:56.221 --> 00:21:59.057
- All right.
- 00:21:59.057 --> 00:22:00.192
- What about so that's data ownership private sector.
- 00:22:00.192 --> 00:22:02.461
- One minute.
- 00:22:02.461 --> 00:22:03.362
- Is there something we can do to really
- 00:22:03.362 --> 00:22:05.264
- What should for example, what could the trump
- 00:22:05.264 --> 00:22:06.698
- Administration do to dismantle this
- 00:22:06.698 --> 00:22:08.667
- If it was of a mind to do so in the three years it has?
- 00:22:08.667 --> 00:22:11.904
- I mean, it's taken some some very serious steps.
- 00:22:12.905 --> 00:22:15.541
- I would say, you know, seriously rolled back both,
- 00:22:15.541 --> 00:22:18.844
- And the gc.
- 00:22:19.178 --> 00:22:20.446
- So the two
- 00:22:20.446 --> 00:22:21.580
- Primary federal agencies that were involved in this,
- 00:22:21.580 --> 00:22:24.616
- Were immediately targeted by the trump administration.
- 00:22:24.616 --> 00:22:28.554
- It doesn't mean they can't be reconstituted
- 00:22:28.554 --> 00:22:30.856
- At some point
- 00:22:30.856 --> 00:22:31.590
- In the future that the
- 00:22:31.590 --> 00:22:32.658
- Duties of those offices can't be moved elsewhere.
- 00:22:32.658 --> 00:22:35.527
- But, you know, the the other thing is to start to
- 00:22:35.527 --> 00:22:39.031
- Introduce legislation that, a bit
- 00:22:39.031 --> 00:22:43.469
- Like the settlements we just saw
- 00:22:43.469 --> 00:22:45.204
- Come out of the missouri versus the, biden case
- 00:22:45.204 --> 00:22:49.107
- That prohibits coordination between the federal government
- 00:22:49.107 --> 00:22:53.312
- And social media companies about posts to censor.
- 00:22:53.312 --> 00:22:57.149
- So that settlement,
- 00:22:57.149 --> 00:22:58.450
- Which was just reached in this big case
- 00:22:58.450 --> 00:23:00.486
- That went to the supreme court, then got kicked down.
- 00:23:00.486 --> 00:23:03.055
- It only lasts for ten years,
- 00:23:03.055 --> 00:23:04.823
- And it only prohibits some of that, activity.
- 00:23:04.823 --> 00:23:08.060
- But there remains the problem that we know about.
- 00:23:08.060 --> 00:23:11.530
- You know, for instance, the biden administration
- 00:23:11.530 --> 00:23:13.398
- As soon as it took office.
- 00:23:13.398 --> 00:23:14.867
- Sorry to do this.
- 00:23:14.867 --> 00:23:16.101
- Thank you very much.
- 00:23:16.101 --> 00:23:17.035
- We're actually out of time in our segment,
- 00:23:17.035 --> 00:23:18.537
- Jacob siegel, the information state.
- 00:23:18.537 --> 00:23:20.339
- Check it out. thank you very much for coming on.
- 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:20.339
