Praise

Burl Cain & CJ Orndorff: Transforming Lives Through Faith | Praise

June 24, 2025 | 58:25

Matt and Laurie Crouch sit down with CJ Orndorff from Second Chance and Mississippi Commissioner of Corrections Burl Cain. They explore the transformative power of faith within prisons and share inspiring stories of how God is working to bring hope and renewal to America’s prison system.

#PrisonMinistry #Prisoner #Faith #Transformation #Family #Gospel #Salvation

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Praise | Burl Cain & CJ Orndorff: Transforming Lives Through Faith | Praise | June 24, 2025

Coming up tonight on praise.
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We learned a long time ago.
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We can't whoop them into being different.
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It just does not work. you just make people meaner.
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You drive them.
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But we did learn that you can lead them.
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I believe that prison ministry gives, somebody an opportunity
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To look down on a person that's struggling.
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I resisted that because i believed that god
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Has a plan for that person's life.
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That desire that god had
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When they were conceived is still there.
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Prisons must prepare them
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To get out where they skills so they can have a job.
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And we must do that from the day they come in to prove.
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My greatest joy is to see those lives put their hands up
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And say the prayer with me at the end of the meeting.
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Tonight, on praise
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From dallas prison minister and musician c.j.
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Orndorff and commissioner burl cain
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And now your host
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Matt and laurie crouch the red
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Words of jesus
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In matthew 25.
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I was naked and you clothed me.
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I was sick and you visited me.
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I was in prison and you came to me.
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Then the righteous will answer him, saying, lord,
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When did we see you hungry
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Or feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
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And when did we see you as a stranger and not take you in?
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Or when did we see you sick or in prison and not come to you?
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And the king will answer and say to them, assuredly,
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I say to you, in as much as you did it
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To one of the least of these, my brother,
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You did it unto me.
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Welcome to praise.
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We're talking about prison reform.
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Tbn█s initiative is called second chance.
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And we welcome two very important people
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To that storyline.
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C.j. orndorff,
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Doctor burl cain.
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You've been elevated to doctor
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All of a sudden, your█re doctor burl cain
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He deserves it. i appreciate it. yeah.
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You've been in it long enough to to have a doctorate.
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Let's say honorary doctor.
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Okay, okay.
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Give you one if you don't have it.
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Okay. so i'd love it.
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Burl, let's go back in the wayback machine for a minute.
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We're going to go back to about 2006, so we're going way back.
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C.j., you were there, by the way.
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Just, by full disclosure.
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C.j. is, my better half.
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Yeah.
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Besides, you
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Is my wife's brother, so his friends over there,
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That's my brother.
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So he's my, he's my brother in law, and we fight.
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Okay, so we'll fight after the show's over.
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To say so.
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C.j., laurie and i came to angola prison.
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The alcatraz of the south
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And there was a famous, now veteran warden named burl cain.
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Who welcomed us there.
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Amazing trip.
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I like the way it was.
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It had completely changed the,
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Atmosphere of what was the bloodiest prison.
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The most notorious prison, maybe in the united states.
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Maybe.
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You know, at least on the part of alcatraz for sure
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And nobody wanted to go there.
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No wardens wanted to take the job.
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It would chew you up, spit you out, and end your career.
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21 years later,
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You had a completely different atmosphere there.
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And that's how we met all those years ago.
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Prison reform is.
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You're saying.
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I hear you're now
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The commissioner of prisons in mississippi.
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I've been to mississippi state with you.
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I've interviewed you many times,
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And you came to see us here in dallas.
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And i'm never going to let you out of a tv
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And studio without interviewing you.
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So i said, sit down, put a mic on this guy.
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That's right.
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And let's do some tv together.
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I want to hear i want to start the story
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With where prison reform
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And you began.
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You told me off camera
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That you had some undue influence in your life.
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Tell our audience a little bit about where
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You and prison reform got some instructions.
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And from who?
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Well, in my family, i was the baby of six.
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And so my mom kind of treated me like one a lot
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You know?
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So anyway,
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I go see mom, and i'm thinking she's going to be all excited.
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I'm going to be the warden of this prison.
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Now, i started out at the warden at the top.
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I didn't start at the bottom, so that was unique in itself.
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But anyway,
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So i thought she was going to be
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All excited and say, oh, this is great and good.
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And she said, well, let me tell you one thing,
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Okay, god is going to hold you accountable
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That those men know him and you better not fail.
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Wow. and i said, yes, ma'am.
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So your mom, turned you into an immediate evangelist.
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She did as you're going to go in and she puts the,
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Let's say, the burden on you, that it's your responsibility
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To bring jesus to these guys.
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She was a school teacher, so she was she was a
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She was a power in our lives because we did what she said.
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And, she charged me with that.
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And so she was real proud because she's, i think, realized
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I had a chance to make a difference.
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She didn't say that. she just said what i said.
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That was all and i ended
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With yes, ma'am.
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And so it was a phone call.
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And so that was it
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Then when i got to the prison, out of respect for her.
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The first visit
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I had, you know, when you come to the new job,
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When everybody wants to meet you and so forth.
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I said, well,
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I called ahead
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And i said, i want you
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To put the three chaplains in a different room
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When i get there.
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And so when i got there, i went to that room first
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And left everybody now that sent a signal,
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The chaplain were important to me.
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Most important, i got.
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And when i got there, i told the three of them.
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I kind of gave them the charge, i said.
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I said i actually told them what my mom said,
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And i said, i'm going to divide this prison into three groups.
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You're all going to be shepherds
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And you're going to feed the flock.
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And the flock don't grow.
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I'm going to get a new shepherd.
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So that was their charge.
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I like it.
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And, and so consequently, two of the flock grew and one
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Didn't, and one lost the job, and we got a new shepherd.
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But anyway, that was what i meant.
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But this was this was wrong because i really passed off
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What she told me to them. yeah.
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And and i realized that later, but only when i got to angola
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And it came all back to me again,
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Because right after i got there, i had an execution.
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But i didn't
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Want to go to the prison itself because we would lose our job.
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You'd be short.
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I was too young to retire.
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So that was yuck.
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So you go to basically an impossible job virtually,
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Or what would have been impossible prior to that.
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It was.
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And god tapped you on the shoulder, in and
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And god in that moment looks a lot like your mama and,
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And told you bring jesus to this place,
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And i'm going to hold you responsible for it
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And c.j. pick up the story, because
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Burl cain is
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One of the most well known people and voices
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In the entire prison system.
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Now, the commissioner of prisons in mississippi, but when c.j.
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And laurie and i walked on to the grounds of, you know,
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Angola prison, it was like we were meeting michael jordan.
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You know,
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If you were in the nba, we were now with michael jordan
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And help tell the story because it was
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It was a complete disaster.
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And it had really turned into
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A model that that should have been
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That every prison should hope to be like.
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Well, when we walked in, i'll never forget,
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I've never seen 600 inmates in a chapel before.
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Yeah. they were packed in there.
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They were a lively bunch of guys.
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I mean, this is.
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And i'd been in in prison industry for,
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12 years at that point.
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Yeah.
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And i'd never seen it before.
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600 men enthusiastically doing worship, singing and
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And it was obvious to me the fruit was there, that warden
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Cain stepped into the ministry the minute he was there.
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Yeah.
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And that his efforts were being rewarded
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With the transformation of these men's lives.
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And it that's just been a launching pad, really, to me.
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And and i started to hear
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Stories that they actually had lifers there
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That would never see
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The light of day on the outside of the prison
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Unless they were ordained as ministers of the gospel,
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And they would go out to inmates
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With one officer
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Just because they had the state had to have their
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Their protection there. you know.
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But they would go to other facilities
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And other churches and speak and come home at night
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Back to angola, that exact same things.
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What i remember what a story.
00:09:48.077 --> 00:09:49.512
I remember you saying, hey, there's a biblical model.
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The disciples are sent out two by two.
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So i'm going to just kind of ordain
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These guys and send them out.
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You would get them basically saved, filled with,
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You know, the the holy spirit and, and
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And send them out and, you know, look, you changed,
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This angola prison, which
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Was prior to you, unchangeable.
00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:19.208
But it goes deeper.
00:10:19.208 --> 00:10:20.509
Prison reform goes deeper than an evangelistic experience.
00:10:20.509 --> 00:10:26.382
So there's other aspects to a lot of these
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People's lives that need effected change.
00:10:30.219 --> 00:10:34.390
Okay.
00:10:34.390 --> 00:10:35.224
You were talking,
00:10:35.224 --> 00:10:38.327
Kind of off camera a little bit.
00:10:38.327 --> 00:10:39.995
Pick the story up now. okay.
00:10:39.995 --> 00:10:43.199
Your mama told you.
00:10:43.199 --> 00:10:44.700
Get these guys the gospel of jesus and that
00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:48.137
That's a really good starting point.
00:10:48.137 --> 00:10:52.341
But at some point, you've got to go a little beyond that.
00:10:52.341 --> 00:10:56.445
Pick the story up, about what prison reform really is
00:10:56.445 --> 00:11:00.216
And should be.
00:11:00.216 --> 00:11:01.350
Let me explain one thing first.
00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:03.419
When i got there,
00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:04.920
I didn't really you know, i had the experience of
00:11:04.920 --> 00:11:07.123
The prison, but it was a god thing.
00:11:07.123 --> 00:11:09.091
I wasn't smart enough.
00:11:09.091 --> 00:11:10.926
Nor can i take credit for change in angola.
00:11:10.926 --> 00:11:13.963
It was him i remember standing on the curb
00:11:13.963 --> 00:11:16.966
And looking at this guy, saying, thank you, jesus.
00:11:16.966 --> 00:11:19.802
I wasn't that smart to think of that. yeah.
00:11:19.802 --> 00:11:21.971
And one thing was, right after i got there,
00:11:21.971 --> 00:11:25.241
I was crying about higher education
00:11:25.241 --> 00:11:27.276
Because they didn't teach anybody on death row
00:11:27.276 --> 00:11:29.411
How to read, because don't teach them
00:11:29.411 --> 00:11:31.514
To read, they're going to be executed.
00:11:31.514 --> 00:11:33.015
I said, well, how are they going to read the bible?
00:11:33.015 --> 00:11:34.717
How can they read the rules? that's crazy.
00:11:34.717 --> 00:11:37.353
So we got to teach these guys how to read.
00:11:37.353 --> 00:11:39.221
I'm crying about education.
00:11:39.221 --> 00:11:41.357
And all of a sudden
00:11:41.357 --> 00:11:42.358
I'm sitting here with doctor george roundtree
00:11:42.358 --> 00:11:45.327
And another guy and we we were talking about that
00:11:45.327 --> 00:11:48.330
And they were from the new orleans
00:11:48.330 --> 00:11:49.732
Baptist theological seminary and the baptist.
00:11:49.732 --> 00:11:52.601
And i'd come up to see me and i said,
00:11:52.601 --> 00:11:53.903
Why don't we get you education,
00:11:53.903 --> 00:11:55.404
Get you
00:11:55.404 --> 00:11:56.639
A get to seminary to come up and give you an education and
00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:59.275
Do that.
00:11:59.542 --> 00:12:00.776
I said, man, they█re not going to come up here and do this.
00:12:00.776 --> 00:12:02.711
He said, well, what if they did?
00:12:02.711 --> 00:12:04.146
I said, well, i'll be happy if they will.
00:12:04.146 --> 00:12:07.183
And so sure enough like that, they did.
00:12:07.183 --> 00:12:09.451
And so that started in 96.
00:12:09.451 --> 00:12:11.987
I went there 95.
00:12:11.987 --> 00:12:13.222
And so the seminary was there.
00:12:13.222 --> 00:12:16.525
And starting when you came, it was already operating.
00:12:16.525 --> 00:12:19.862
We graduated our first class.
00:12:19.862 --> 00:12:21.931
And so the morality came from there.
00:12:21.931 --> 00:12:24.900
But i realized
00:12:24.900 --> 00:12:26.035
That the moral people don't write pilfer and steal.
00:12:26.035 --> 00:12:29.605
So if i can get these guys to be moral, we'll be safe.
00:12:29.605 --> 00:12:32.942
And in the community, it was safe.
00:12:32.942 --> 00:12:34.577
Because corrections means correct behavior.
00:12:34.577 --> 00:12:37.746
So we were missing the boat in corrections.
00:12:37.746 --> 00:12:39.782
We were trying to do it without having the moral component.
00:12:39.782 --> 00:12:43.419
So if you go and change someone, we all grow up with our mom
00:12:43.419 --> 00:12:46.622
Or dad.
00:12:46.622 --> 00:12:47.523
We go to church, we get taught morality,
00:12:47.523 --> 00:12:48.791
We get taught skills and trades and so forth.
00:12:48.791 --> 00:12:51.193
But in corrections,
00:12:51.193 --> 00:12:52.228
We missed that
00:12:52.228 --> 00:12:53.462
Because it wasn't popular to have religion in front of them.
00:12:53.462 --> 00:12:56.432
Okay.
00:12:56.432 --> 00:12:57.333
You were saying, to me and and again, i've,
00:12:57.333 --> 00:13:00.603
I've spent quite a bit of time with you,
00:13:00.603 --> 00:13:02.972
And i've interviewed you a number of times,
00:13:02.972 --> 00:13:04.473
And i know some of, how you think.
00:13:04.473 --> 00:13:07.109
And i love your prison reform, but you were saying off camera,
00:13:07.109 --> 00:13:10.312
And you said it very clear just a little bit ago.
00:13:10.312 --> 00:13:12.581
I want you to do it again, that
00:13:12.581 --> 00:13:15.751
Basically a lot of prisons
00:13:15.751 --> 00:13:18.988
Was just about being mean to the prisoners,
00:13:18.988 --> 00:13:22.558
Keeping them locked down, saying no to everything,
00:13:22.558 --> 00:13:26.128
And all that did is made them meaner.
00:13:26.128 --> 00:13:28.764
Okay.
00:13:28.764 --> 00:13:29.965
We were talking about when i got into business with prison
00:13:29.965 --> 00:13:32.701
Everybody were punitive and so was punishment.
00:13:32.701 --> 00:13:36.005
Punish, punish, punish.
00:13:36.005 --> 00:13:37.406
And we punish you enough
00:13:37.406 --> 00:13:39.008
You won█t come back and you'll be good.
00:13:39.008 --> 00:13:41.443
That's not true.
00:13:41.443 --> 00:13:42.444
That's crazy.
00:13:42.444 --> 00:13:43.445
That's just made the inmates meaner.
00:13:43.445 --> 00:13:45.648
And so then we had to deal with meaner people.
00:13:45.648 --> 00:13:47.816
So the violence perpetuated itself.
00:13:47.816 --> 00:13:50.419
And so it came out with a really bad outcome.
00:13:50.419 --> 00:13:53.222
Yeah.
00:13:53.222 --> 00:13:54.156
There's finally where they were released,
00:13:54.156 --> 00:13:55.457
And we released meaner people back in the community
00:13:55.457 --> 00:13:58.127
Instead of safer people.
00:13:58.127 --> 00:13:59.728
So you get these guys that have broken the law.
00:13:59.728 --> 00:14:02.097
You got mean prison guards, you lock them down,
00:14:02.097 --> 00:14:05.067
You're mean to them.
00:14:05.067 --> 00:14:06.335
You're just everyone's just kind of forced into their thing,
00:14:06.335 --> 00:14:09.571
And all it does is make meaner prisoners.
00:14:09.571 --> 00:14:11.807
It does.
00:14:11.807 --> 00:14:12.841
And we think that's going to change something.
00:14:12.841 --> 00:14:14.610
Let me just say,
00:14:14.610 --> 00:14:16.111
I don't think i have ever seen a more loved man.
00:14:16.111 --> 00:14:20.015
Yeah.
00:14:20.015 --> 00:14:20.883
Walking through the halls of a prison or
00:14:20.883 --> 00:14:23.452
On that platform than i saw those men give.
00:14:23.452 --> 00:14:28.590
And all they did was respected and loved you.
00:14:28.590 --> 00:14:32.561
And it was it was shocking to me.
00:14:32.561 --> 00:14:35.497
I couldn't believe it.
00:14:35.497 --> 00:14:36.632
And that has carried on for years.
00:14:36.632 --> 00:14:39.101
Even the other day when we came to visit, whenever that was.
00:14:39.101 --> 00:14:42.271
Same thing.
00:14:42.604 --> 00:14:43.906
These men adore they they love him
00:14:43.906 --> 00:14:46.709
Because he's helped their lives, he's helped guide and change.
00:14:46.709 --> 00:14:50.646
And everyone had jobs.
00:14:50.646 --> 00:14:52.081
I remember they were working on car.
00:14:52.081 --> 00:14:54.083
It just what you've done is just been amazing.
00:14:54.083 --> 00:14:56.685
And and when you when you think about
00:14:56.685 --> 00:14:58.721
The two things of the influence of your mom,
00:14:58.721 --> 00:15:02.925
Which was make sure they they have faith
00:15:02.925 --> 00:15:06.428
And they make sure they have that component and,
00:15:06.428 --> 00:15:09.298
And make sure that you move them along and abilitate take them.
00:15:09.298 --> 00:15:13.702
She was a teacher.
00:15:13.702 --> 00:15:14.970
She had to graduate these kids through her,
00:15:14.970 --> 00:15:19.008
You know, grade that she was teaching
00:15:19.008 --> 00:15:21.243
To get them from the lower grade to the next grade.
00:15:21.243 --> 00:15:25.047
And she that was the influence that you had.
00:15:25.047 --> 00:15:27.683
We got to get these guys and give them
00:15:27.683 --> 00:15:30.619
Practical knowledge beyond their own faith.
00:15:30.619 --> 00:15:33.722
That's a great start. okay.
00:15:33.722 --> 00:15:36.125
But you've got to also get this reform started in their lives.
00:15:36.125 --> 00:15:41.263
Give us your kind of
00:15:41.730 --> 00:15:44.700
Storyline on that part of it.
00:15:45.334 --> 00:15:47.903
Well, the one thing i didn't tell you was
00:15:47.903 --> 00:15:50.439
When i went to lsu, my degree is education.
00:15:50.439 --> 00:15:54.076
I'm a teacher. okay.
00:15:54.076 --> 00:15:56.512
So i learned in that
00:15:56.512 --> 00:15:58.380
The methods class how to manage high school students.
00:15:58.380 --> 00:16:01.917
So i didn't know what i was doing in prison.
00:16:01.917 --> 00:16:04.253
But the first thing i did is i got black a bs program
00:16:04.253 --> 00:16:07.623
Experience in god.
00:16:07.623 --> 00:16:08.857
I had taken out just recently in our sunday school class,
00:16:08.857 --> 00:16:13.195
And so we did it in a president angola
00:16:13.195 --> 00:16:15.697
And we taught our sunday school class came.
00:16:15.697 --> 00:16:17.966
We taught 20 inmates, but the deal was
00:16:17.966 --> 00:16:20.903
They had to teach 20 more.
00:16:20.903 --> 00:16:23.038
So we started out right off the bat when i first got there.
00:16:23.038 --> 00:16:26.542
So we were started with on this moral track
00:16:26.542 --> 00:16:29.878
To try to change the culture and to prison to morality.
00:16:29.878 --> 00:16:33.515
And so that's what we did.
00:16:33.515 --> 00:16:35.684
And that caught on big time.
00:16:35.684 --> 00:16:37.219
And pretty soon
00:16:37.219 --> 00:16:38.320
We had a whole bunch of people doing experiencing god.
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.156
So then the violence started to settle.
00:16:41.156 --> 00:16:43.559
So we saw that happening.
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:45.194
But then they started liking it because then they were
00:16:45.194 --> 00:16:47.696
We were being better to them
00:16:47.696 --> 00:16:49.565
And we didn't have to fight with them so much.
00:16:49.565 --> 00:16:51.767
So maybe they started
00:16:51.767 --> 00:16:53.135
As correctional officers to be an easier to deal with.
00:16:53.135 --> 00:16:56.371
So the whole thing spun on itself.
00:16:56.371 --> 00:16:58.974
And so that's how it happened.
00:16:58.974 --> 00:17:00.275
Okay.
00:17:00.275 --> 00:17:00.809
So but at some point
00:17:00.809 --> 00:17:02.978
Now you're a moral person and you're experiencing god.
00:17:02.978 --> 00:17:06.782
And what a, what a great tool that was and still is really.
00:17:06.782 --> 00:17:11.286
But i remember how popular it was way
00:17:11.286 --> 00:17:13.222
Back, you know,
00:17:13.222 --> 00:17:14.123
When when we were together way back in
00:17:14.123 --> 00:17:16.024
Is just one of the biggest kind of books out there at the time.
00:17:16.024 --> 00:17:19.995
But but at some point,
00:17:20.462 --> 00:17:23.332
What you showed me at
00:17:23.332 --> 00:17:25.200
Mississippi state prison,
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.170
More recently when we were together, is
00:17:28.170 --> 00:17:31.940
That sometimes somebody locked up
00:17:32.641 --> 00:17:37.346
Has never worked for money,
00:17:37.346 --> 00:17:41.617
Received that money, and then been rewarded
00:17:41.617 --> 00:17:45.420
By buying something they wanted that had never happened before.
00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:50.159
They were raised in in an environment of crime
00:17:50.159 --> 00:17:53.996
And you steal and you this, you that and that.
00:17:53.996 --> 00:17:58.000
Sometimes in prison, when you give somebody
00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.936
A menial job only punching a hole and sheet metal, okay.
00:18:00.936 --> 00:18:06.074
And they sit there and they do that
00:18:06.074 --> 00:18:07.643
At the end of the week, they got a few bucks.
00:18:07.643 --> 00:18:09.878
Well, you let them order a pizza
00:18:09.878 --> 00:18:13.148
And they are then getting a chance
00:18:13.148 --> 00:18:16.818
To understand that work creates money, and money
00:18:16.818 --> 00:18:22.157
Creates something that they want and things.
00:18:22.157 --> 00:18:25.494
And maybe that's the first time they had ever
00:18:25.494 --> 00:18:29.097
Experienced that in their entire life.
00:18:29.097 --> 00:18:32.701
You're training them.
00:18:32.701 --> 00:18:33.969
You could be a good warden. well, you saw it.
00:18:33.969 --> 00:18:36.538
You called it.
00:18:36.538 --> 00:18:37.606
I listened to you when you were telling me, okay.
00:18:37.606 --> 00:18:40.576
I mean, that's good, that's cool.
00:18:40.576 --> 00:18:43.145
It's true. and so we did that at angola.
00:18:43.145 --> 00:18:45.280
We started paying inmates.
00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:46.982
And in mississippi, we did the same thing.
00:18:46.982 --> 00:18:50.085
And it█s exactly what you said.
00:18:50.085 --> 00:18:52.454
They had a job, they made money.
00:18:52.454 --> 00:18:54.823
So then they wanted to make more money.
00:18:54.823 --> 00:18:56.358
So they worked hard to get a better job and a better job.
00:18:56.358 --> 00:18:59.461
And you would see on one of our documentaries
00:18:59.461 --> 00:19:01.530
With the promise keeper, where you had an inmate say,
00:19:01.530 --> 00:19:04.299
There's no unemployment in angola.
00:19:04.299 --> 00:19:06.301
Everybody had a job, and they were proud.
00:19:06.301 --> 00:19:08.971
They were really proud,
00:19:08.971 --> 00:19:10.105
And we all had a purpose in their life.
00:19:10.105 --> 00:19:12.708
And then they could brag back to their family.
00:19:12.708 --> 00:19:15.210
I'm working here,
00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:16.378
But they were learning skills they used on the street.
00:19:16.378 --> 00:19:18.780
If they ever got out. yeah.
00:19:18.780 --> 00:19:20.282
So we have to have jobs.
00:19:20.282 --> 00:19:22.050
So you talk about here here's what worked.
00:19:22.050 --> 00:19:25.053
You have to have a job skill when you get out.
00:19:25.053 --> 00:19:28.890
The felony kills you with getting jobs.
00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:32.561
And so you'd be surprised who will not hire you.
00:19:32.561 --> 00:19:36.632
Amazon won█t hire the felony.
00:19:36.632 --> 00:19:39.134
Most of them won't walmart won't hire the felony.
00:19:39.134 --> 00:19:41.970
These are basic jobs.
00:19:41.970 --> 00:19:43.605
So the felony really hurts.
00:19:43.605 --> 00:19:45.407
So if there were some way that we could drop that off
00:19:45.407 --> 00:19:48.510
When you got out of prison,
00:19:48.510 --> 00:19:49.611
Somehow, some way you get a job might be better.
00:19:49.611 --> 00:19:52.681
But let█s don't go there anyway.
00:19:52.681 --> 00:19:54.650
The whole thing is we have to teach a job skill.
00:19:54.650 --> 00:19:58.120
Not a soft skills, but a real skill.
00:19:58.120 --> 00:20:00.822
If you can repair a car
00:20:00.822 --> 00:20:02.591
And you have an ase certification,
00:20:02.591 --> 00:20:04.860
Nobody cared if you had a felony
00:20:04.860 --> 00:20:06.528
Yeah, you're making a money and you can be a welder.
00:20:06.528 --> 00:20:09.798
You can get a job.
00:20:09.798 --> 00:20:11.066
But we focus too
00:20:11.066 --> 00:20:12.301
Much in prison on soft skills because it's easy and cheap.
00:20:12.301 --> 00:20:16.004
Yeah, it cost more money to do.
00:20:16.004 --> 00:20:18.507
Now i█m going to get to the point i█m fixing to make
00:20:18.507 --> 00:20:20.776
So we taught these inmates these skills and trades,
00:20:20.776 --> 00:20:23.979
So now in mississippi i have four
00:20:23.979 --> 00:20:26.682
I have 398 teachers.
00:20:26.682 --> 00:20:29.818
Okay.
00:20:29.818 --> 00:20:30.285
If i were to hire
00:20:30.285 --> 00:20:31.286
These teachers, they would cost us $22 million.
00:20:31.286 --> 00:20:35.257
It's 48,000 a year.
00:20:35.257 --> 00:20:37.159
But these inmates have a job.
00:20:37.159 --> 00:20:39.227
They're a teacher because
00:20:39.227 --> 00:20:40.495
They had a skill on the street that we identified and found.
00:20:40.495 --> 00:20:44.166
Then we let them teach this skill to other inmates.
00:20:44.166 --> 00:20:47.202
And everybody would say, in the prison business,
00:20:47.202 --> 00:20:49.604
You can't let one inmate have authority over another.
00:20:49.604 --> 00:20:52.207
Well, you don't.
00:20:52.207 --> 00:20:53.208
He's taken a skill and they want to learn it.
00:20:53.208 --> 00:20:54.976
So they want to be there.
00:20:54.976 --> 00:20:56.845
They don█t want to be there, they can leave.
00:20:56.845 --> 00:20:58.580
So the point is, we could never, ever
00:20:58.580 --> 00:21:02.351
Have enough teachers to teach that number of that population
00:21:02.351 --> 00:21:06.621
Of 20,000 prisoners a skill if we don't use
00:21:06.621 --> 00:21:09.691
The inmates themselves.
00:21:09.691 --> 00:21:11.326
So that's the new technology, new thing in prison.
00:21:11.326 --> 00:21:14.896
And we're
00:21:15.197 --> 00:21:16.264
Now seeing other states start to start to do that
00:21:16.264 --> 00:21:18.767
Because they realize they can't afford the teachers.
00:21:18.767 --> 00:21:21.336
Yeah, but we all want to teach.
00:21:21.336 --> 00:21:22.738
We all want to teach them skill,
00:21:22.738 --> 00:21:24.172
But we don't have the teachers.
00:21:24.172 --> 00:21:25.874
So now that's changed.
00:21:25.874 --> 00:21:27.209
So but we see that because through the seminary
00:21:27.209 --> 00:21:30.145
We cut out the morality and we got the four year
00:21:30.145 --> 00:21:32.481
Education that was accredited,
00:21:32.481 --> 00:21:34.616
Just not graduating from texas tech.
00:21:34.616 --> 00:21:37.219
So therefore then and there's there's a 60,
00:21:37.219 --> 00:21:40.622
There's 60 prisons in texas that have field ministers
00:21:40.622 --> 00:21:43.658
That have inmate teachers too.
00:21:43.658 --> 00:21:45.360
I don't know if they're teaching,
00:21:45.360 --> 00:21:46.361
But they're maybe preaching and that's good.
00:21:46.361 --> 00:21:48.497
But you bring it about morality, so that's good.
00:21:48.497 --> 00:21:51.366
Anyway, it█s changing the culture in prisons,
00:21:51.366 --> 00:21:52.534
Prison█s are getting safer.
00:21:52.534 --> 00:21:54.970
When i have been around you, i listen to you.
00:21:54.970 --> 00:21:59.674
And the other thing i remember you talking about
00:21:59.674 --> 00:22:03.044
Is it's easy for a warden to say no,
00:22:03.044 --> 00:22:07.949
It's safer.
00:22:08.283 --> 00:22:10.152
The the doors are locked, the prison doors are closed.
00:22:10.152 --> 00:22:14.222
And when you say no to a program, it's easier.
00:22:14.222 --> 00:22:19.594
Safer.
00:22:19.594 --> 00:22:20.762
But what ceo
00:22:20.762 --> 00:22:24.166
Ends up having a fortune 500 company that doesn't take risk?
00:22:24.166 --> 00:22:29.171
That's what you said to me.
00:22:29.171 --> 00:22:30.872
And you have to think you have to take some risk
00:22:30.872 --> 00:22:35.977
In regard to new things and new ideas inside of prison
00:22:35.977 --> 00:22:41.583
Reform, or nothing's ever going to change, right?
00:22:41.583 --> 00:22:44.653
Closing doors, locking people down,
00:22:44.653 --> 00:22:47.656
Treating them harshly just makes meaner prisoners.
00:22:47.656 --> 00:22:51.359
So it it feels like if you get to this point
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:55.230
Where you are finally saying yes to some programs
00:22:55.230 --> 00:23:00.569
When you are,
00:23:00.569 --> 00:23:03.438
Taking some risk,
00:23:03.438 --> 00:23:05.740
You know, you're the commissioner of prisons
00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:08.610
In mississippi, and these wardens have to start
00:23:08.610 --> 00:23:12.814
These new programs, these new ideas,
00:23:12.814 --> 00:23:15.450
Take some risks, give these guys some ability to learn.
00:23:15.450 --> 00:23:20.021
That's who you presented yourself
00:23:20.021 --> 00:23:24.426
And you now are starting to it's starting to catch.
00:23:24.426 --> 00:23:28.563
And and i think this the i think this makes sense.
00:23:28.563 --> 00:23:31.233
C.j., you've been in and out of prisons,
00:23:31.233 --> 00:23:34.436
For, you know, decades,
00:23:34.436 --> 00:23:38.106
Speak to this
00:23:38.473 --> 00:23:39.574
Issue exactly of prison reform and, and the difference
00:23:39.574 --> 00:23:44.846
That this guy makes to, a prison.
00:23:44.846 --> 00:23:48.783
You know, c.j., he hit a nail on the head.
00:23:48.783 --> 00:23:51.786
He listened to me.
00:23:51.786 --> 00:23:52.921
So now we have the rule
00:23:52.921 --> 00:23:54.823
And we have the rule for all our wardens
00:23:54.823 --> 00:23:56.825
That you have to say yes.
00:23:56.825 --> 00:23:58.293
More than no inherent prison.
00:23:58.293 --> 00:24:00.195
And there's another word you have to be “askable”
00:24:00.195 --> 00:24:02.597
But that's the word we made up.
00:24:02.597 --> 00:24:04.966
That means if somebody asks you a question,
00:24:04.966 --> 00:24:07.168
You can't say, get out of my face.
00:24:07.168 --> 00:24:09.271
You have to answer the question and you have to talk to them.
00:24:09.271 --> 00:24:15.944
I just, admire so much,
00:24:16.444 --> 00:24:19.848
The ability to obey what the holy spirit was telling him.
00:24:19.848 --> 00:24:24.519
And maybe, maybe he wouldn't put it in so many words.
00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:27.155
From my perspective, the lord was speaking to burl,
00:24:27.155 --> 00:24:31.059
And he gave him an, a job to do, and he did it.
00:24:31.059 --> 00:24:35.430
And to me, one of the most incredible. and,
00:24:35.430 --> 00:24:40.902
Facts about
00:24:41.236 --> 00:24:42.203
This is that he was able to
00:24:42.203 --> 00:24:45.407
Tap into the inherent
00:24:45.407 --> 00:24:49.010
Integrity of every one of those inmates
00:24:49.010 --> 00:24:53.415
That only god could put there in the first place.
00:24:53.415 --> 00:24:56.551
That mom and dad didn't
00:24:57.052 --> 00:24:58.253
Harvest the friends down the street, didn't harvest.
00:24:58.253 --> 00:25:02.090
But god anointed him, and god knew it was there.
00:25:02.090 --> 00:25:04.693
God knew it was there.
00:25:04.693 --> 00:25:05.894
And he used his servant
00:25:05.894 --> 00:25:07.195
That would do whatever it took to obey that voice inside.
00:25:07.195 --> 00:25:11.733
And then he tapped into that
00:25:11.733 --> 00:25:14.102
Integrity in every man, and then he refined it somehow
00:25:14.102 --> 00:25:18.039
By the power of the holy spirit, because i believe the holy
00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:20.375
Spirit was in involved in it and in go, and i believe he's in
00:25:20.375 --> 00:25:24.312
I believe he's involved in mississippi.
00:25:24.312 --> 00:25:27.482
And, you know, when the holy spirit gets involved and that
00:25:27.482 --> 00:25:31.252
Integrity starts to be exercised by the voice of the lord
00:25:31.252 --> 00:25:35.390
And then rewarded and all of the things that really
00:25:35.390 --> 00:25:39.327
Are very, very biblical,
00:25:39.327 --> 00:25:41.630
Start to reform that man's mind.
00:25:42.263 --> 00:25:45.200
Yeah.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:46.101
His spirit, his his whole way of life.
00:25:46.101 --> 00:25:48.370
And by the way,
00:25:48.370 --> 00:25:49.838
We've been there and we've seen this for ourselves.
00:25:49.838 --> 00:25:52.340
Yeah.
00:25:52.340 --> 00:25:53.241
So, yeah, you don't have to sit there,
00:25:53.241 --> 00:25:54.576
You know, convince me i been there. okay?
00:25:54.576 --> 00:25:57.145
I mean, i remember walking around with her
00:25:57.145 --> 00:26:01.182
And feeling i was in a safe environment
00:26:01.182 --> 00:26:04.019
Because there was a literal difference
00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:09.090
In a place that took these
00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:11.960
Foundational principles that your mama put in you,
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:15.130
That your teaching credential was, was,
00:26:15.130 --> 00:26:18.533
Starting to expand inside a prison.
00:26:18.533 --> 00:26:20.902
Your “askable” you'll listen to, i, i've seen
00:26:20.902 --> 00:26:24.873
You stop even with, you know, cameras rolling
00:26:24.873 --> 00:26:28.610
And listen to an inmate and answer the question.
00:26:28.610 --> 00:26:31.946
I've seen you do it.
00:26:31.946 --> 00:26:33.181
So the idea that prison reform,
00:26:33.181 --> 00:26:36.117
You know, some people just say, you know, they're in prison,
00:26:36.117 --> 00:26:39.621
You know, put them in the cell, get the key and throw
00:26:39.621 --> 00:26:42.590
Away the key, and you're basically undoing all of that.
00:26:42.590 --> 00:26:47.162
And you're seeing great results because we've all been there
00:26:47.162 --> 00:26:50.598
And we've seen it firsthand.
00:26:50.598 --> 00:26:51.866
Well, i remember him saying,
00:26:51.866 --> 00:26:54.035
Laurie, you can go anywhere you want.
00:26:54.035 --> 00:26:55.704
No one's going to bother you. yeah.
00:26:55.704 --> 00:26:57.405
Yeah, exactly.
00:26:57.405 --> 00:26:58.506
That's was so cool because you're
00:26:58.506 --> 00:26:59.941
Going through the hallways and there's,
00:26:59.941 --> 00:27:03.044
You know,
00:27:03.044 --> 00:27:03.578
I will enter his gates
00:27:03.578 --> 00:27:04.546
With thanksgiving in my heart and,
00:27:04.546 --> 00:27:06.281
You know, and scriptures everywhere.
00:27:06.281 --> 00:27:08.817
And it was just i remember i remember being in the big room
00:27:08.817 --> 00:27:13.054
And we were going to have dinner.
00:27:13.054 --> 00:27:14.522
And these life was these guys that had
00:27:14.522 --> 00:27:16.891
These bad men were some of the kindest,
00:27:16.891 --> 00:27:20.328
Gentle gospel, beautiful transfer of totally, absolutely.
00:27:20.328 --> 00:27:25.366
And i loved how you just fell in love with them.
00:27:25.366 --> 00:27:27.569
They were, you know,
00:27:27.569 --> 00:27:28.803
And it was just it was it was really
00:27:28.803 --> 00:27:31.573
It was shocking to me and it was amazing.
00:27:31.573 --> 00:27:35.076
But that is that is the gospel with feet on it.
00:27:35.076 --> 00:27:38.279
That's what god that's what god does.
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:40.715
That would that's what god's transfer formation.
00:27:40.715 --> 00:27:43.785
And when you
00:27:43.785 --> 00:27:45.053
Tap in to the spirit of a man that's made in the image of god,
00:27:45.053 --> 00:27:48.389
You know, and you feed that, come on.
00:27:48.389 --> 00:27:51.326
And you give that life and you give that integrity
00:27:51.326 --> 00:27:54.963
And you give that honor.
00:27:54.963 --> 00:27:56.197
And, you know, we're all human beings.
00:27:56.197 --> 00:27:58.833
We're all created in the dear god.
00:27:58.833 --> 00:28:01.069
There's respond to that response and such value.
00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:04.005
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:04.005 --> 00:28:05.473
Beautiful.
00:28:05.473 --> 00:28:06.741
We love you. well, thank you.
00:28:06.741 --> 00:28:08.777
I love you all because you're letting us tell this story.
00:28:08.777 --> 00:28:11.179
But this is really true.
00:28:11.179 --> 00:28:12.514
And the the whole point was it is really god.
00:28:12.514 --> 00:28:16.050
And he really was
00:28:16.050 --> 00:28:17.418
Laying it out there because it's like getting hospice.
00:28:17.418 --> 00:28:20.288
We had inmates die and they were not
00:28:20.288 --> 00:28:22.657
It was not dignity and respect.
00:28:22.657 --> 00:28:24.592
So with having the seminary, we had the preachers
00:28:24.592 --> 00:28:27.529
And so therefore then we created the first hospice in america
00:28:27.529 --> 00:28:30.732
That was certified.
00:28:30.732 --> 00:28:32.100
And now there's hospice is in many prisons.
00:28:32.100 --> 00:28:33.968
And then we build our own coffin
00:28:33.968 --> 00:28:35.470
And we dug out grave with a shovel, and we
00:28:35.470 --> 00:28:37.872
We had a horse drawn hearse to go to the cemetery.
00:28:37.872 --> 00:28:40.375
So dignity everywhere.
00:28:40.375 --> 00:28:41.810
Even if you're a criminal, you need to have dignity.
00:28:41.810 --> 00:28:44.879
And we if we can give it to them and that's what jesus said
00:28:44.879 --> 00:28:48.516
In the scripture when you started there.
00:28:48.516 --> 00:28:50.451
We're supposed to do that.
00:28:50.451 --> 00:28:51.619
We're not supposed to ridicule. and it's like a leper.
00:28:51.619 --> 00:28:54.489
He reached out to everybody, but we're so sanctimonious
00:28:54.489 --> 00:28:58.660
That we don't. yeah, and we have to do more of that.
00:28:58.660 --> 00:29:01.563
Yeah.
00:29:01.563 --> 00:29:02.463
And the whole thing was it's a circle.
00:29:02.463 --> 00:29:05.099
The whole thing was we will see the community change
00:29:05.099 --> 00:29:08.803
In the, in the area that we can't even go in our community
00:29:08.803 --> 00:29:12.207
Where the violent is so much because these inmate preachers
00:29:12.207 --> 00:29:15.810
Are getting out of prison now,
00:29:15.810 --> 00:29:17.912
And they're going back to those areas
00:29:17.912 --> 00:29:19.714
Where they came from, where there's drugs and violent,
00:29:19.714 --> 00:29:22.450
And they're starting churches there
00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:24.452
With the help of suburban churches
00:29:24.452 --> 00:29:26.287
Supporting those urban churches.
00:29:26.287 --> 00:29:28.256
And we're actually doing it now.
00:29:28.256 --> 00:29:30.625
And we seeing that change.
00:29:30.625 --> 00:29:31.926
And i didn't realize that what it was all about,
00:29:31.926 --> 00:29:34.395
But it was a whole circle to where you will see
00:29:34.395 --> 00:29:37.398
Reform in this country come from the prison.
00:29:37.398 --> 00:29:40.802
It's not going to come from anywhere else. wow.
00:29:40.802 --> 00:29:43.638
This praise, program is talking about, tbn.
00:29:43.638 --> 00:29:48.509
We call this, second chance, this beautiful
00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:52.680
Kind of light in the darkness kind of vibe.
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:56.251
We, are talking about this.
00:29:56.251 --> 00:29:58.720
We've had this program for for many, many years,
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.823
C.j., you've been a part of it.
00:30:01.823 --> 00:30:03.157
You've done tours after tour after tour,
00:30:03.157 --> 00:30:06.160
You've gone into prisons, you've done a lot of ministry
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.131
And the opportunity to sit with
00:30:10.131 --> 00:30:13.167
The michael jordan, of prisons.
00:30:13.801 --> 00:30:16.971
Bureau cain, because of the reform,
00:30:17.705 --> 00:30:21.542
Prison reform, you made me understand it.
00:30:22.377 --> 00:30:26.281
It's saying yes to programs.
00:30:26.281 --> 00:30:28.549
It it's not just doing the safe thing by saying no.
00:30:28.549 --> 00:30:32.320
And i have another bureau cain ism that i,
00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:36.257
Talk about a lot where you said i
00:30:36.991 --> 00:30:40.862
If i, if i'm not willing
00:30:40.862 --> 00:30:43.531
To take a chance on someone, why would i expect somebody,
00:30:43.531 --> 00:30:47.402
A business owner on the outside to take a chance on somebody?
00:30:47.402 --> 00:30:50.872
I have to take these chances,
00:30:50.872 --> 00:30:53.641
And i have to give them
00:30:53.641 --> 00:30:55.443
The dignity and watch that emerge in them.
00:30:55.443 --> 00:30:59.681
Because how do you rehabilitate somebody that's never been
00:30:59.681 --> 00:31:03.418
A militated if they don't know right from wrong,
00:31:03.418 --> 00:31:07.088
And we don't teach it,
00:31:07.555 --> 00:31:09.958
How are we going to get them progressed to be able to be
00:31:09.958 --> 00:31:13.361
A useful, member of society on the outside,
00:31:13.361 --> 00:31:16.531
You take chances, you say, yes more than you say no.
00:31:16.531 --> 00:31:20.969
And that's the difference
00:31:20.969 --> 00:31:22.670
Of lives being changed and not being changed.
00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:24.973
And you tell me how the convicted felon,
00:31:24.973 --> 00:31:27.075
You did get criticized for it, but you can't do that in prison.
00:31:27.075 --> 00:31:30.812
But i said, that's what i said.
00:31:30.812 --> 00:31:32.513
Well, if i won't harm, i can aspect
00:31:32.513 --> 00:31:34.549
Somebody on the street to harm. so i have to be a good example.
00:31:34.549 --> 00:31:37.218
So we're going to harm.
00:31:37.218 --> 00:31:38.553
So then everybody shut up.
00:31:38.553 --> 00:31:40.121
Bless our because it makes sense.
00:31:40.121 --> 00:31:42.423
It just makes sense,
00:31:42.423 --> 00:31:44.025
You know common sense back to some of this.
00:31:44.025 --> 00:31:47.395
But but by saying yes, you were you were progressive
00:31:47.395 --> 00:31:52.066
In your thinking all the way back and still are.
00:31:52.066 --> 00:31:55.770
And it's easy for a warden to say no, it's safe.
00:31:55.770 --> 00:32:00.341
It's safe.
00:32:00.341 --> 00:32:01.342
And you know,
00:32:01.342 --> 00:32:02.443
You're the guy that says yes more than you say no,
00:32:02.443 --> 00:32:05.580
Or that i have more fun. and i,
00:32:05.580 --> 00:32:09.884
Okay.
00:32:10.118 --> 00:32:10.952
If somebody just kind of tuning in.
00:32:10.952 --> 00:32:13.855
I love the idea that we,
00:32:13.855 --> 00:32:16.524
Got to kind of shine a light on this story of prison reform.
00:32:16.524 --> 00:32:19.927
It's a it's it's critical.
00:32:19.927 --> 00:32:22.163
It's the difference between life and death
00:32:22.163 --> 00:32:24.232
For a lot of these guys and dignity and and and
00:32:24.232 --> 00:32:30.271
And walking them through,
00:32:30.271 --> 00:32:33.408
Their faith.
00:32:33.741 --> 00:32:34.742
You know, i, i just for me, i can't help
00:32:34.742 --> 00:32:38.012
But just think that, you know, there's your mom teaching,
00:32:38.012 --> 00:32:41.349
You know, a grade, and she's got to get the kids
00:32:41.349 --> 00:32:44.719
And they've got to get
00:32:44.719 --> 00:32:45.520
This much information
00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:46.621
Before she passes them on to the next grade.
00:32:46.621 --> 00:32:49.290
And you're treating that same kind of educational vibe.
00:32:49.290 --> 00:32:54.062
You start with faith.
00:32:54.062 --> 00:32:55.997
That changes everything.
00:32:55.997 --> 00:32:57.799
But then you've got to get these skills into these guys,
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:01.035
And you've got to get this rehabilitation going.
00:33:01.035 --> 00:33:03.871
And that's really what we're talking about today.
00:33:03.871 --> 00:33:06.908
And you just happen to be the guy that knows more
00:33:06.908 --> 00:33:09.677
About than anybody.
00:33:09.677 --> 00:33:10.711
And or let me put it this way, you're
00:33:10.711 --> 00:33:12.814
The first guy i talked about that made any sense of success.
00:33:12.814 --> 00:33:14.982
Okay.
00:33:14.982 --> 00:33:15.650
You know, because i couldn't
00:33:15.650 --> 00:33:16.484
Have understood it until i met you.
00:33:16.484 --> 00:33:18.953
And that's why we're shining a light on it.
00:33:18.953 --> 00:33:21.222
Give us your your your what do you want to.
00:33:21.222 --> 00:33:23.925
What do you want to say
00:33:23.925 --> 00:33:24.992
To an audience member watching that just says,
00:33:24.992 --> 00:33:28.729
Well, look, they are bad guys and they've done bad things
00:33:28.729 --> 00:33:32.200
And they deserve this.
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:33.901
And i'll talk to, you know,
00:33:33.901 --> 00:33:36.337
Somebody that says, wait a second, prisons are needed
00:33:36.337 --> 00:33:39.207
And, and all of that because i suppose
00:33:39.207 --> 00:33:41.976
There has to be balance occasionally.
00:33:41.976 --> 00:33:43.845
And there are some just kind of mean old people.
00:33:43.845 --> 00:33:46.714
But but at some point
00:33:47.215 --> 00:33:49.417
We're trying to move them along in this program.
00:33:49.417 --> 00:33:52.787
Well, we learned a long time ago we can't help them.
00:33:53.821 --> 00:33:56.924
And to be indifferent, it just does not work.
00:33:56.924 --> 00:33:59.527
You just make people meaner and more violent.
00:33:59.527 --> 00:34:02.296
We learn that we have to.
00:34:02.296 --> 00:34:03.731
You can't drive them.
00:34:03.731 --> 00:34:05.133
But we did learn that you can lead them.
00:34:05.133 --> 00:34:07.502
And that's how we have to do our families and our kids.
00:34:07.502 --> 00:34:09.770
We have to be leaders, and we have to lead them to
00:34:09.770 --> 00:34:11.639
Right and lead them to good.
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:12.874
By being right and good of ourselves,
00:34:12.874 --> 00:34:15.543
We have to set that example for them.
00:34:15.543 --> 00:34:17.311
And then good things have to happen when you are.
00:34:17.311 --> 00:34:20.014
And so that's why that we have to have
00:34:20.014 --> 00:34:22.884
Inmate welfare funds and things like this.
00:34:22.884 --> 00:34:24.952
But in the public self itself,
00:34:24.952 --> 00:34:27.622
When they get out or when they come back,
00:34:27.622 --> 00:34:30.024
You know, you have to be cautious,
00:34:30.024 --> 00:34:31.893
You have to be careful, but you do anyway all the time.
00:34:31.893 --> 00:34:34.562
But give them a job, give them a way to make it.
00:34:34.562 --> 00:34:37.532
Because if you don't, if he can't have a job,
00:34:37.532 --> 00:34:40.067
He's got to steal.
00:34:40.067 --> 00:34:41.269
He's got to eat, he's got to make it somehow.
00:34:41.269 --> 00:34:44.071
And so we find and it's disappointing to me that,
00:34:44.071 --> 00:34:47.942
That in some case i don't want to get political about it.
00:34:47.942 --> 00:34:50.344
But anyway,
00:34:50.344 --> 00:34:51.379
When he made me do things more for other people,
00:34:51.379 --> 00:34:53.481
Other places, and we do found ourselves
00:34:53.481 --> 00:34:55.616
And our own people who need help,
00:34:55.616 --> 00:34:57.518
And so we have to have a mechanism to get them out.
00:34:57.518 --> 00:34:59.921
But prisons must prepare them
00:34:59.921 --> 00:35:02.456
To get out with a skill so they can have a job.
00:35:02.456 --> 00:35:06.294
And we must do that from the day they come in the prison.
00:35:06.294 --> 00:35:09.597
The first day.
00:35:09.597 --> 00:35:11.465
This is, the praise program.
00:35:12.066 --> 00:35:14.502
Lori and i are the host. you're the guest.
00:35:14.502 --> 00:35:16.170
So i'm going to put you on the spot for a second, okay?
00:35:16.170 --> 00:35:18.706
I like it. okay.
00:35:18.706 --> 00:35:21.609
You have been a part of some research
00:35:21.609 --> 00:35:25.947
That is cutting edge research.
00:35:25.947 --> 00:35:29.116
And we're going to feature some of that in this broadcast.
00:35:30.251 --> 00:35:35.556
But i want you to comment on
00:35:35.556 --> 00:35:39.393
A long bit of research
00:35:39.860 --> 00:35:43.764
That has been kind of in the works.
00:35:43.764 --> 00:35:47.568
And any research that barbara kane needed to get done
00:35:47.568 --> 00:35:52.206
And wanted to get done, so that he could have
00:35:52.206 --> 00:35:54.508
Some statistics to really prove this out, i'm in favor of
00:35:54.508 --> 00:35:58.379
Give us a little bit of a, of a preview and
00:35:58.379 --> 00:36:02.750
And and and look, sometimes statistics are just hard
00:36:02.750 --> 00:36:06.387
For people to grasp.
00:36:06.387 --> 00:36:07.822
It's a little talk to us common sense about this
00:36:07.822 --> 00:36:12.393
Massive research program
00:36:12.393 --> 00:36:15.563
That you have been a part of that,
00:36:15.563 --> 00:36:18.966
2025 and beyond is
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:21.669
Going to be, it's it's going to shape a lot of things.
00:36:21.669 --> 00:36:25.473
Give us a little preview, common sense version.
00:36:25.473 --> 00:36:28.409
What do i need to know about this research?
00:36:28.409 --> 00:36:30.845
Well, you need to know that it's starting.
00:36:30.845 --> 00:36:32.446
But way back in angola, we started a research project,
00:36:32.446 --> 00:36:36.050
Especially when we got to texas with our seminary there
00:36:36.050 --> 00:36:39.053
With with, baylor university doctor barron johnson wrote more
00:36:39.053 --> 00:36:42.790
Godless crime they of well war renowned researcher.
00:36:42.790 --> 00:36:46.961
And so we raised the funds to pay baylor and pay for him
00:36:46.961 --> 00:36:50.498
To do the research on the project
00:36:50.498 --> 00:36:52.533
We had with the seminary. and it worked.
00:36:52.533 --> 00:36:54.535
And he proved it work with a five year research project
00:36:54.535 --> 00:36:57.872
Paid for with private donors and most of them from texas.
00:36:57.872 --> 00:37:01.409
Thank you. texas.
00:37:01.409 --> 00:37:02.777
And so that's good.
00:37:02.777 --> 00:37:03.711
And senator dan patrick was one of them.
00:37:03.711 --> 00:37:06.080
And senator whitmire now
00:37:06.080 --> 00:37:08.282
Lieutenant governor, lieutenant governor dan patrick.
00:37:08.282 --> 00:37:10.951
Yeah, they played a major role in texas has in this moment
00:37:10.951 --> 00:37:14.722
Because they were the big kahuna.
00:37:14.722 --> 00:37:16.390
We just little old folks of louisiana.
00:37:16.390 --> 00:37:18.459
So we had to get texas on board.
00:37:18.459 --> 00:37:20.061
Got it. and so they grab it and go.
00:37:20.061 --> 00:37:22.096
But then what i realized after i retired
00:37:22.096 --> 00:37:24.965
That i nobody believed it could be done anywhere else.
00:37:24.965 --> 00:37:28.202
Everybody thought it was just angola.
00:37:28.202 --> 00:37:30.271
Big old turner on the river, big old farm.
00:37:30.271 --> 00:37:33.941
So i said i got to do it somewhere else.
00:37:33.941 --> 00:37:35.743
Meanwhile, they had the right in mississippi,
00:37:35.743 --> 00:37:38.879
And so i went to mississippi and told, i told them
00:37:38.879 --> 00:37:42.883
I can fix your prison, but i'd like to apply for the job.
00:37:42.883 --> 00:37:47.221
So they said, we can't afford it.
00:37:47.221 --> 00:37:49.056
I said, i don't care what you pay me.
00:37:49.056 --> 00:37:51.392
He. and so the guy said, well,
00:37:51.392 --> 00:37:52.593
You have to know the purpose of being here.
00:37:52.593 --> 00:37:54.195
I said, i sure do.
00:37:54.195 --> 00:37:55.796
And so
00:37:55.796 --> 00:37:56.697
Because if we could change another one,
00:37:56.697 --> 00:37:58.566
They couldn't say it couldn't be done.
00:37:58.566 --> 00:38:00.234
There it is.
00:38:00.234 --> 00:38:01.202
You've got to research again with pepperdine
00:38:01.202 --> 00:38:03.003
This time and baylor again to follow me right to mississippi.
00:38:03.003 --> 00:38:07.141
And then we started the whole program again
00:38:07.141 --> 00:38:09.510
And we recreated it and we did it.
00:38:09.510 --> 00:38:11.479
They just came out.
00:38:11.479 --> 00:38:12.513
The research is coming out now.
00:38:12.513 --> 00:38:14.281
It all worked.
00:38:14.281 --> 00:38:15.449
And so we'll be having
00:38:15.449 --> 00:38:17.017
Presentations on this all over the country.
00:38:17.017 --> 00:38:19.320
So what's really cool is other
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:20.955
States have seen it and are doing it.
00:38:20.955 --> 00:38:23.157
And so these this program is in about 28 states.
00:38:23.157 --> 00:38:27.027
This very morning
00:38:27.027 --> 00:38:28.529
I talked to folks from north dakota
00:38:28.529 --> 00:38:30.831
And they're ready for us to come do it. they're
00:38:30.831 --> 00:38:33.667
Day to day.
00:38:34.001 --> 00:38:35.169
We out here at mississippi state penitentiary at parchman
00:38:35.169 --> 00:38:38.038
And church it in the background.
00:38:38.038 --> 00:38:39.774
We're real proud of that.
00:38:39.774 --> 00:38:40.808
And i'm here with doctor brian johnson,
00:38:40.808 --> 00:38:42.943
Who did our research in angola and in texas,
00:38:42.943 --> 00:38:45.212
And he's doing research here about the seminary and also with
00:38:45.212 --> 00:38:47.848
With the superintendent, mark mcclure.
00:38:47.848 --> 00:38:50.684
He'd be a ward in any other prison.
00:38:50.684 --> 00:38:52.286
But in mississippi, they call them superintendents.
00:38:52.286 --> 00:38:54.255
Anyway,
00:38:54.255 --> 00:38:55.489
We are here to talk a little bit about our seminary,
00:38:55.489 --> 00:38:57.958
What impact the seminary had on the prison,
00:38:57.958 --> 00:39:00.161
But also for byron to tell us a little bit about the impact
00:39:00.161 --> 00:39:03.564
He sees from it. research.
00:39:03.564 --> 00:39:05.366
And he research a good long been a research in this one here
00:39:05.366 --> 00:39:08.602
To see if it really does work.
00:39:08.602 --> 00:39:09.870
So by what do you have to say about it?
00:39:09.870 --> 00:39:12.239
Well, commissioner, first of all let me just say
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.041
I've been at this now for about 35 years.
00:39:14.041 --> 00:39:16.777
And so i've been in a lot of prisons.
00:39:16.777 --> 00:39:18.712
Someone asked me yesterday,
00:39:18.712 --> 00:39:19.914
Is this the first person you've been in?
00:39:19.914 --> 00:39:22.149
And i said, i've been hanging out
00:39:22.149 --> 00:39:24.051
In these prisons for a long, long time.
00:39:24.051 --> 00:39:26.253
But this is one of the more
00:39:26.253 --> 00:39:27.188
Unusual prisons that we've been in.
00:39:27.188 --> 00:39:29.523
And, you know, we spent five years at angola on that project.
00:39:29.523 --> 00:39:33.594
And, we wrote a bunch of papers
00:39:33.594 --> 00:39:36.764
Trying
00:39:36.964 --> 00:39:38.132
To prove what you were saying all along was happening.
00:39:38.132 --> 00:39:40.401
But we wanted to collect the data
00:39:40.401 --> 00:39:42.436
That would give us, you know, something that's verifiable,
00:39:42.436 --> 00:39:45.873
Documented, documented, documented,
00:39:45.873 --> 00:39:48.542
At least in ongoing research, where we've followed
00:39:48.542 --> 00:39:51.645
The same guys over time, which is really hard to do.
00:39:51.645 --> 00:39:54.682
Right.
00:39:54.682 --> 00:39:55.516
And so that research was really kind
00:39:55.516 --> 00:39:57.585
Of a game changer for the field and,
00:39:57.585 --> 00:39:59.487
And got a lot of accolades.
00:39:59.487 --> 00:40:01.155
And so, when you called to say, i've come out of retirement,
00:40:01.155 --> 00:40:06.494
I thought, well, hey, you're crazy,
00:40:06.494 --> 00:40:09.897
And that you're going to try and do something
00:40:09.897 --> 00:40:11.732
For the whole state.
00:40:11.732 --> 00:40:13.234
And, i thought, well, that's pretty ambitious.
00:40:13.234 --> 00:40:15.669
And you, you know, you you've made a pitch
00:40:15.669 --> 00:40:17.605
For us to come here and do this research.
00:40:17.605 --> 00:40:19.340
So we've been on the ground a couple of years,
00:40:19.340 --> 00:40:21.775
And i have to say, we're about halfway
00:40:21.775 --> 00:40:24.278
Through with the project that we did it at angola.
00:40:24.278 --> 00:40:27.548
But we are finding the same kinds of things
00:40:27.548 --> 00:40:31.652
Here that we found in angola.
00:40:32.286 --> 00:40:34.588
And and it's really because
00:40:34.588 --> 00:40:35.990
Of the leadership of the superintendent
00:40:35.990 --> 00:40:38.192
Because we felt like it.
00:40:38.192 --> 00:40:40.060
Angola, that leadership met so much that people had to get
00:40:40.060 --> 00:40:44.932
With the program or they weren't going to stay around.
00:40:44.932 --> 00:40:48.002
And i think the superintendent has had that same message,
00:40:48.002 --> 00:40:51.672
That same leadership here.
00:40:51.672 --> 00:40:54.308
And when you lead like that, people will follow.
00:40:54.308 --> 00:40:57.177
And, and so i see it among the inmates when i talk to them,
00:40:57.177 --> 00:41:01.515
They're so encouraged about what the two of you have done
00:41:01.515 --> 00:41:04.285
To change the culture and to do so really quickly.
00:41:04.285 --> 00:41:08.055
So it's unprecedented.
00:41:08.055 --> 00:41:09.757
We're glad we could be here.
00:41:09.757 --> 00:41:11.559
And and this time we're not only doing
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:13.427
The statistics we're actually doing, we're filming it.
00:41:13.427 --> 00:41:17.331
And that's my only regret, is that we didn't film in angola,
00:41:17.331 --> 00:41:20.935
But the superintendent has allowed us
00:41:20.935 --> 00:41:23.571
To come in here and to do what we wanted to do.
00:41:23.571 --> 00:41:27.274
And so i think the next couple of years
00:41:27.274 --> 00:41:29.209
Are going to be phenomenal about what we'll be able to produce.
00:41:29.209 --> 00:41:32.379
And the difference between angola and parts men will be
00:41:32.379 --> 00:41:35.282
That the department's story will be a global story
00:41:35.282 --> 00:41:38.886
Because of the filming
00:41:39.353 --> 00:41:41.188
And the potential to reach people,
00:41:41.188 --> 00:41:42.957
Not just here in the united states, where we
00:41:42.957 --> 00:41:45.059
We hope to change policies, but around the world.
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:48.729
And so,
00:41:48.963 --> 00:41:49.964
You know, that's one thing i've learned from
00:41:49.964 --> 00:41:51.198
The two of you is just to dream big.
00:41:51.198 --> 00:41:53.500
Oh, yeah. yeah.
00:41:53.500 --> 00:41:54.635
And so let's let's dream big and see what might happen.
00:41:54.635 --> 00:41:57.705
And, so i will be very surprised
00:41:57.705 --> 00:42:00.975
If we don't find that this works just as well as it did
00:42:00.975 --> 00:42:04.612
In angola.
00:42:04.612 --> 00:42:05.846
And who knows, maybe it'll work even a little bit better here.
00:42:05.846 --> 00:42:07.748
So what about other states?
00:42:07.748 --> 00:42:09.049
So if they do this and follow this model,
00:42:09.049 --> 00:42:11.352
You pretty well can figure you're
00:42:11.352 --> 00:42:12.753
Going to get the same outcome.
00:42:12.753 --> 00:42:14.221
Well, if you have leadership like this, i know,
00:42:14.221 --> 00:42:17.658
I know that you handpicked him because you felt like this was,
00:42:17.658 --> 00:42:21.161
You know, the heir apparent, to your legacy.
00:42:21.161 --> 00:42:24.965
And i think if
00:42:25.299 --> 00:42:26.400
If we can get people that will be like, commissioner,
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.670
Superintendent mcclure that are willing
00:42:29.670 --> 00:42:31.405
To lead and take some risk.
00:42:31.405 --> 00:42:33.507
He's not trying to win a popularity contest,
00:42:34.408 --> 00:42:37.244
But he is trying to change the way fundamentally,
00:42:37.244 --> 00:42:39.947
We think about reform, rehabilitation
00:42:39.947 --> 00:42:43.384
And and prisons and corrections.
00:42:43.384 --> 00:42:46.053
And, so, you know, how can we turn this ship around?
00:42:46.053 --> 00:42:50.324
And i think that, you know,
00:42:50.324 --> 00:42:51.525
We're going to need
00:42:51.525 --> 00:42:52.559
Strong leadership like this, the bible colleges.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:55.362
And then once you've trained these men, you empower them
00:42:55.362 --> 00:42:59.767
To to turn them loose, to do the good work of the ministers.
00:42:59.767 --> 00:43:03.470
And i just hope that states are smart enough
00:43:03.470 --> 00:43:06.040
To look at mississippi,
00:43:06.040 --> 00:43:07.775
Because i think mississippi can be a leader.
00:43:07.775 --> 00:43:10.411
But that's not typically how people think of mississippi.
00:43:10.411 --> 00:43:13.714
They think of it, you know, typically bringing up the rear.
00:43:13.714 --> 00:43:16.617
But i think what could happen
00:43:16.617 --> 00:43:18.085
Is that the solutions for our system,
00:43:18.085 --> 00:43:21.388
For our prisons, can be found in places like this
00:43:21.388 --> 00:43:25.025
Where we're allowed to do the work,
00:43:25.025 --> 00:43:26.860
And document what's happening
00:43:27.494 --> 00:43:29.096
And then publish it in the best journals in the country,
00:43:29.096 --> 00:43:32.366
And then let people
00:43:32.366 --> 00:43:33.834
And their homes see it for themselves in film.
00:43:33.834 --> 00:43:38.005
Absolutely.
00:43:38.338 --> 00:43:39.239
That's what we're going to do.
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:40.474
So we're telling mcclure,
00:43:40.474 --> 00:43:41.642
You think
00:43:41.642 --> 00:43:42.876
It made your job easier to have the seminary here for you now?
00:43:42.876 --> 00:43:45.479
Yeah.
00:43:45.479 --> 00:43:46.680
I mean, one of the biggest things i saw when i got here was
00:43:46.680 --> 00:43:48.982
I don't remember what year you came, but they told me
00:43:48.982 --> 00:43:50.918
Long time ago you came here, and you,
00:43:50.918 --> 00:43:52.419
You got the bible college
00:43:52.419 --> 00:43:53.487
Started way before you were the commissioner.
00:43:53.487 --> 00:43:55.756
Way before you ever. even before i did that.
00:43:55.756 --> 00:43:58.092
And so when i got here, having the freedom
00:43:58.092 --> 00:44:00.961
And the support of you had to cut the ties.
00:44:00.961 --> 00:44:03.997
And that's what that's what's frustrating for me,
00:44:03.997 --> 00:44:06.400
Because i have been with the former christian since 1998, but
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.636
I hadn't worked in institutions.
00:44:09.636 --> 00:44:11.605
And so when i came to the institution
00:44:11.605 --> 00:44:12.873
And everything was restricted, everything was tied down.
00:44:12.873 --> 00:44:15.342
Everything was, they thought was controlled.
00:44:15.342 --> 00:44:18.178
But we know how that turned out.
00:44:18.178 --> 00:44:19.446
And so the thing is, is
00:44:19.446 --> 00:44:21.949
I was able to cut the ties and let them go.
00:44:21.949 --> 00:44:23.784
And so you had all these field ministers
00:44:23.784 --> 00:44:25.252
That had been growing the whole time since 2004.
00:44:25.252 --> 00:44:28.021
They weren't allowed to do anything.
00:44:28.021 --> 00:44:29.423
And as soon as i cut the ties
00:44:29.423 --> 00:44:31.458
And let them start going to every unit
00:44:31.458 --> 00:44:32.793
They live in, every building they live in, every zone,
00:44:32.793 --> 00:44:34.895
They live everywhere in the prison.
00:44:34.895 --> 00:44:36.797
And instead of them being clumped up and meeting
00:44:36.797 --> 00:44:39.433
That spiritual life center, they go to every unit
00:44:39.433 --> 00:44:42.169
And they see everybody and they make rounds every day.
00:44:42.169 --> 00:44:44.538
And so just that having that in the prison system,
00:44:44.538 --> 00:44:48.942
Because they all come back and tell me that's
00:44:48.942 --> 00:44:50.277
One of the things that you don't realize.
00:44:50.277 --> 00:44:51.612
They'll come back and talk to me
00:44:51.612 --> 00:44:52.513
And tell me, hey, there's a problem here.
00:44:52.513 --> 00:44:53.914
There's somebody that needs this here.
00:44:53.914 --> 00:44:55.949
And so, you know,
00:44:55.949 --> 00:44:57.151
I've talked to you a bunch and i mean,
00:44:57.151 --> 00:44:58.719
My whole thing is treat people like human beings.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:01.388
Yeah.
00:45:01.388 --> 00:45:02.589
And so when people talk to you one on one as a human being,
00:45:02.589 --> 00:45:05.425
I'm not saying you're not an inmate. we're human beings.
00:45:05.425 --> 00:45:08.162
What's your problem? let me help me.
00:45:08.162 --> 00:45:09.997
And so the film is the same way.
00:45:09.997 --> 00:45:11.632
They are here to serve.
00:45:11.632 --> 00:45:12.466
They may have a long time to serve,
00:45:12.466 --> 00:45:13.734
But they're serving the men here.
00:45:13.734 --> 00:45:15.335
They're serving the lord. so that's what makes it.
00:45:15.335 --> 00:45:17.704
That is their calling.
00:45:18.172 --> 00:45:19.473
And so i to your calling, you got more passion,
00:45:19.473 --> 00:45:21.542
You got more drive, you got more desire. yeah.
00:45:21.542 --> 00:45:23.911
And so really just being able to let them go.
00:45:23.911 --> 00:45:27.080
Yeah.
00:45:27.080 --> 00:45:28.081
And let them use what they've been trying to do
00:45:28.081 --> 00:45:30.017
To help other men.
00:45:30.017 --> 00:45:31.185
It has really changed.
00:45:31.185 --> 00:45:33.120
And you know, that's one of the things
00:45:33.120 --> 00:45:34.321
That it's really had been fast because we know what it was.
00:45:34.321 --> 00:45:37.891
But it's just that the the visions are here.
00:45:37.891 --> 00:45:41.428
It just. yeah.
00:45:41.428 --> 00:45:42.496
Well and you said empowering and that's really is
00:45:42.496 --> 00:45:44.464
When you allow them and give them the authority
00:45:44.464 --> 00:45:46.266
To do what they're trying to do,
00:45:46.266 --> 00:45:47.367
That really makes a difference fast.
00:45:47.367 --> 00:45:48.969
I think it's a paradigm shift for people to hear that.
00:45:48.969 --> 00:45:51.071
The answer for prisons is actually in the prison.
00:45:51.071 --> 00:45:53.807
They think it has to come from the outside.
00:45:53.807 --> 00:45:56.043
What you're proving is they
00:45:56.043 --> 00:45:57.511
It can come from the inside if we'll just let it happen.
00:45:57.511 --> 00:46:01.148
But you have to be bold like he is.
00:46:01.148 --> 00:46:03.483
He is doing a good job. i'm keeping him around.
00:46:03.483 --> 00:46:05.853
Yeah. would you keep him around? that's our.
00:46:05.853 --> 00:46:09.423
Look what this does?
00:46:09.890 --> 00:46:10.724
Yeah.
00:46:10.724 --> 00:46:11.925
The film editors go out to all the other than mississippi.
00:46:11.925 --> 00:46:14.194
The other superintendents are like him.
00:46:14.194 --> 00:46:16.230
And so then they change the culture
00:46:16.230 --> 00:46:17.798
In the whole department of corrections.
00:46:17.798 --> 00:46:19.266
So we have a safer department.
00:46:19.266 --> 00:46:21.134
Our dollars are spent wisely.
00:46:21.134 --> 00:46:22.569
But can we spend on programs
00:46:22.569 --> 00:46:23.971
And not on violence and things like that.
00:46:23.971 --> 00:46:26.106
So the seminary is really a cut through thing to get us to
00:46:26.106 --> 00:46:29.943
Where we need to be
00:46:29.943 --> 00:46:31.111
About changing people's lives and more rehabilitation.
00:46:31.111 --> 00:46:33.780
That's what it's all about.
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:35.415
Thank you all so much.
00:46:35.415 --> 00:46:37.217
Give me a summary.
00:46:37.217 --> 00:46:40.287
Give me a if if you were being interviewed on the news
00:46:40.287 --> 00:46:45.058
And i was going to play a news reporter
00:46:45.859 --> 00:46:47.928
And you were going to be the guy getting interviewed,
00:46:47.928 --> 00:46:50.264
And they say, what does this research say?
00:46:50.264 --> 00:46:53.300
It dates all the way back to angola.
00:46:53.300 --> 00:46:55.202
It it goes into mississippi and it's been studied
00:46:55.202 --> 00:46:59.139
And it's been years of, of research.
00:46:59.139 --> 00:47:01.575
But what what is it saying that we need to know?
00:47:01.575 --> 00:47:05.212
It said that more people do not recidivist
00:47:05.212 --> 00:47:08.849
Who do not commit crime.
00:47:08.849 --> 00:47:10.651
And what happens is when people come to prison,
00:47:10.651 --> 00:47:13.387
They're selfish.
00:47:13.387 --> 00:47:14.321
They care about themself, they're immoral,
00:47:14.321 --> 00:47:16.857
And they don't care about you.
00:47:16.857 --> 00:47:18.425
They just
00:47:18.425 --> 00:47:19.626
Want to steal your lawnmower and be lazy and don't work.
00:47:19.626 --> 00:47:21.595
So when we when we create a moral environment
00:47:21.595 --> 00:47:25.098
And they're a moral people, then you're safer
00:47:25.098 --> 00:47:28.568
And then the community safer and violence goes down.
00:47:28.568 --> 00:47:32.072
And that's what they proved.
00:47:32.072 --> 00:47:33.273
And that's what we do create more of it.
00:47:33.273 --> 00:47:35.943
So the bible again is is being proved correct.
00:47:35.943 --> 00:47:39.846
The bible is the only way.
00:47:40.414 --> 00:47:41.949
Yeah, it's the only way.
00:47:41.949 --> 00:47:43.583
Why i got to be me and why god let it be me, i don't know,
00:47:43.583 --> 00:47:47.421
But it's all him and the bible.
00:47:47.421 --> 00:47:49.423
It was his leadership. it was him.
00:47:49.423 --> 00:47:51.558
It was a mother that raised us in a christian home,
00:47:51.558 --> 00:47:53.994
Made us go to church when we didn't want to go
00:47:53.994 --> 00:47:56.496
And whipped us if we didn't. yeah.
00:47:56.496 --> 00:47:58.598
And so that's what it took.
00:47:58.598 --> 00:48:00.233
Don't ask me.
00:48:00.233 --> 00:48:00.934
So i know i came back, you two.
00:48:00.934 --> 00:48:03.837
I didn't want to go, but she made me go.
00:48:03.837 --> 00:48:06.340
My dad supported us, but she drove us to go.
00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:09.543
But she gerace right us that way.
00:48:09.543 --> 00:48:11.345
So it works with adults.
00:48:11.345 --> 00:48:13.981
Morality is what it is all about.
00:48:13.981 --> 00:48:16.283
Moral people don't steal your lawnmower.
00:48:16.283 --> 00:48:18.218
Yeah. got it.
00:48:18.218 --> 00:48:19.353
Yeah. c.j., comment on the same subject here.
00:48:19.353 --> 00:48:22.923
Oh, man.
00:48:23.190 --> 00:48:24.024
It's just,
00:48:24.024 --> 00:48:25.993
So beautiful to see the
00:48:25.993 --> 00:48:28.562
The way that the bible proves itself once again to be
00:48:28.562 --> 00:48:32.966
The the perfect book
00:48:33.433 --> 00:48:36.570
For us to line up a line our lives by,
00:48:36.570 --> 00:48:39.606
The truth of the word of god works
00:48:40.374 --> 00:48:42.576
Every time it's, sincerely approached, every time it
00:48:42.576 --> 00:48:46.046
We we pursue it and apply it to our lives.
00:48:46.046 --> 00:48:49.950
I just love to see the lord involved and reformation
00:48:49.950 --> 00:48:53.987
Of not only inmates, but also for our children
00:48:53.987 --> 00:48:57.791
And, for america.
00:48:57.791 --> 00:48:59.192
I believe that the word of god
00:48:59.192 --> 00:49:00.927
Is the final word on that as well.
00:49:00.927 --> 00:49:04.464
It's the platform for all kind of change.
00:49:04.464 --> 00:49:06.400
Well, wouldn't you sit here
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:08.168
And almost it almost makes sense to say that
00:49:08.168 --> 00:49:12.272
If, you know, we can understand the bible working in church,
00:49:12.272 --> 00:49:17.344
You know, a bunch of church folk go and it works.
00:49:17.344 --> 00:49:19.646
And we see a lot of things, but if it can work in prison.
00:49:19.646 --> 00:49:23.717
Yeah.
00:49:23.717 --> 00:49:24.785
Isn't that really where the rubber meets the road?
00:49:24.785 --> 00:49:28.488
Isn't that one of the most important research papers maybe,
00:49:28.488 --> 00:49:32.559
That have ever been written?
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:33.894
Now you've got it documented.
00:49:33.894 --> 00:49:36.329
You raise the money, you got all this.
00:49:36.329 --> 00:49:38.398
We're not just we're not just telling a story here.
00:49:38.398 --> 00:49:41.101
This is all research. and.
00:49:41.101 --> 00:49:43.670
And if the bible can work in angola prison
00:49:43.670 --> 00:49:48.008
And in mississippi state prisons, right.
00:49:48.008 --> 00:49:49.976
After all the riots that were happening there.
00:49:49.976 --> 00:49:52.212
And you come in with the, the basically the, the,
00:49:52.212 --> 00:49:57.184
The program that worked that your mama told
00:49:57.184 --> 00:50:00.253
You to be response bible for when you went to angola
00:50:00.253 --> 00:50:04.224
All those years ago?
00:50:04.224 --> 00:50:06.393
If it works there, it can work anywhere.
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:09.162
We know that.
00:50:09.162 --> 00:50:10.297
But this is this is just another time that, you know,
00:50:10.297 --> 00:50:13.900
Research is catching up with the truth of the bible.
00:50:13.900 --> 00:50:17.370
And, and it works.
00:50:17.804 --> 00:50:19.873
It is.
00:50:19.873 --> 00:50:20.407
And the,
00:50:20.407 --> 00:50:21.341
The way you look at the whole population,
00:50:21.341 --> 00:50:23.376
The way we got everybody on the
00:50:23.376 --> 00:50:25.011
Same page, was our religion to basically come from abraham.
00:50:25.011 --> 00:50:28.882
So we would tell the prisoners, look,
00:50:28.882 --> 00:50:30.884
We are from abraham, muslims and all of our lives from abraham.
00:50:30.884 --> 00:50:34.921
He don't want his kids. fine.
00:50:34.921 --> 00:50:36.289
So let's all be peaceful.
00:50:36.289 --> 00:50:37.491
Let's quit
00:50:37.491 --> 00:50:38.358
Fighting in memory of father abraham,
00:50:38.358 --> 00:50:40.527
And let's all just get along and do it.
00:50:40.527 --> 00:50:42.629
And that's what we need to be out in the world,
00:50:42.629 --> 00:50:44.631
And we all need to win that.
00:50:44.631 --> 00:50:45.732
Be nice.
00:50:45.732 --> 00:50:46.967
If nations took that advice now, all of us kids and cousins.
00:50:46.967 --> 00:50:49.870
Yeah. that's right.
00:50:49.870 --> 00:50:51.071
Yeah.
00:50:51.071 --> 00:50:52.038
It's, tbn was involved in the abraham accords,
00:50:52.038 --> 00:50:54.841
And i heard a lot about that.
00:50:54.841 --> 00:50:56.510
That why can't the all these cousins just get along
00:50:56.510 --> 00:50:59.679
And and and and it really works.
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:02.449
And it's really truthful.
00:51:02.449 --> 00:51:03.450
And what a what an amazing thing.
00:51:03.450 --> 00:51:05.852
What, what i care about is getting to tell your story.
00:51:05.852 --> 00:51:09.156
Yeah.
00:51:09.156 --> 00:51:10.123
You walked it out by faith all these years.
00:51:10.123 --> 00:51:13.927
Research is now proved it out.
00:51:13.927 --> 00:51:16.329
That's what we really sat down today to to to really bring out.
00:51:16.329 --> 00:51:20.700
And, c.j., you started this long time ago,
00:51:20.700 --> 00:51:24.237
You started going into prisons, ministering,
00:51:24.237 --> 00:51:26.873
What have you seen over all those years and the and
00:51:27.874 --> 00:51:30.911
And what really works and maybe what doesn't work?
00:51:30.911 --> 00:51:36.616
I have to say that,
00:51:37.083 --> 00:51:40.187
A lot of times,
00:51:40.554 --> 00:51:43.089
I believe that prison ministry
00:51:43.089 --> 00:51:45.425
Or approaching people that are down on their luck
00:51:45.425 --> 00:51:48.328
Struggling, being incarcerated and all of that,
00:51:48.328 --> 00:51:52.199
That it gives, somebody
00:51:52.699 --> 00:51:55.502
An opportunity to look,
00:51:55.502 --> 00:51:58.104
To sort of look down on a person that's struggling.
00:51:58.104 --> 00:52:01.107
And, and i from the very first moment
00:52:01.107 --> 00:52:04.477
That i was invited to go, i never, never approached that.
00:52:04.477 --> 00:52:09.649
And, i resisted that because i believed that
00:52:09.649 --> 00:52:13.887
God has a plan for that person's life.
00:52:13.887 --> 00:52:16.489
And it doesn't matter how they got where they are,
00:52:16.489 --> 00:52:19.593
That calling or that desire that god had when they were
00:52:19.593 --> 00:52:22.996
Conceived is still there.
00:52:22.996 --> 00:52:24.965
And so i treated each one of them
00:52:24.965 --> 00:52:26.866
Like they were valuable.
00:52:26.866 --> 00:52:28.768
And i think, i think because, you know, so many different,
00:52:28.768 --> 00:52:32.305
Ministries that are successful,
00:52:32.939 --> 00:52:35.642
Have people that have been to prison
00:52:35.642 --> 00:52:37.544
And they understand and they, they you relate
00:52:37.544 --> 00:52:41.548
To me.
00:52:41.748 --> 00:52:42.415
It was just that i relate with
00:52:42.415 --> 00:52:43.683
What god has for that person, and i wanted to see that happen.
00:52:43.683 --> 00:52:47.420
You know, so from the very first minute
00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:49.623
That i went, i fell in love with it.
00:52:49.623 --> 00:52:51.691
And that love and that respect was reciprocated to me.
00:52:51.691 --> 00:52:56.496
And i don't have a single tattoo.
00:52:57.230 --> 00:52:59.032
I've never done time, never been arrested.
00:52:59.032 --> 00:53:01.201
But for some reason i'm able to relate and they respond.
00:53:01.201 --> 00:53:07.140
And my greatest joy is to see those lives put their hands up
00:53:07.140 --> 00:53:11.211
And say the prayer with me at the end of the meeting.
00:53:11.211 --> 00:53:13.346
And maybe if they relate to
00:53:13.346 --> 00:53:14.981
You're a gangster on the inside, just not the outside.
00:53:14.981 --> 00:53:17.817
Maybe.
00:53:17.817 --> 00:53:18.885
Maybe you're just a little gangster on the inside.
00:53:18.885 --> 00:53:20.253
Excuse me of a couple of cheap shots, i'm sure i've been to j
00:53:20.253 --> 00:53:24.691
And i am so proud of my brother. he.
00:53:25.458 --> 00:53:28.328
He has a spirit like, very few that i know.
00:53:28.328 --> 00:53:33.833
And he.
00:53:33.833 --> 00:53:37.037
When i'm gone with him, i'm. so.
00:53:37.671 --> 00:53:39.873
I'm shocked by how much he loves it.
00:53:39.873 --> 00:53:42.976
He loves. he loves it.
00:53:42.976 --> 00:53:45.145
That's that. can't wait for it.
00:53:45.145 --> 00:53:47.414
But they stand at the gate and they yell out his name.
00:53:47.414 --> 00:53:50.150
And what's so crazy about it is normally
00:53:50.150 --> 00:53:53.286
He can turn around and go, hey, brother bill!
00:53:53.286 --> 00:53:56.356
And he can call out their names,
00:53:56.356 --> 00:53:58.625
And he communicates with these guys
00:53:58.625 --> 00:54:00.627
And they know each other on a first name basis.
00:54:00.627 --> 00:54:03.363
And i, i was just blown away by watching by watching you.
00:54:03.363 --> 00:54:08.702
And i just love the call of god because that is such a call.
00:54:08.702 --> 00:54:12.439
It's like
00:54:12.439 --> 00:54:13.707
We all have different callings, we all have different giftings.
00:54:13.707 --> 00:54:17.177
And, i have that.
00:54:17.177 --> 00:54:19.546
And the both of you unite, by the way.
00:54:19.546 --> 00:54:21.181
Also, there's so much there's there's a lot of times where,
00:54:21.181 --> 00:54:26.086
Tbn is, is been given the opportunity to put,
00:54:26.086 --> 00:54:30.090
Satellite equipment into prisons, and now everything
00:54:30.090 --> 00:54:33.326
Is on laptops, now on all the ipads, great tablets
00:54:33.326 --> 00:54:36.963
And all that kind of stuff and content going.
00:54:36.963 --> 00:54:39.399
And look, we're we're always seizing
00:54:39.399 --> 00:54:42.102
Every new opportunity and, and because of the partners tv.
00:54:42.102 --> 00:54:45.505
And thank you
00:54:45.505 --> 00:54:46.906
For your gifts of support to these types of things.
00:54:46.906 --> 00:54:51.077
I was hungry and you fed me, i was naked and you clothed me.
00:54:51.077 --> 00:54:55.048
I would you visit me in prison and you know, it's
00:54:55.048 --> 00:54:58.284
It's part of of the call jesus jesus's.
00:54:58.284 --> 00:55:01.421
Those are read words and import doing those matters.
00:55:01.421 --> 00:55:06.159
And thank you for, helping us do
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:11.164
You're you're in your 80s.
00:55:11.731 --> 00:55:14.467
Berle, you're still going strong.
00:55:14.467 --> 00:55:16.236
You're you're still going doing your stuff.
00:55:16.236 --> 00:55:18.371
Your research papers are out.
00:55:18.371 --> 00:55:19.873
You're going to be very busy,
00:55:19.873 --> 00:55:22.108
Explaining what this research really says.
00:55:22.108 --> 00:55:25.412
Feels like we got a little bit of a head start.
00:55:25.412 --> 00:55:28.014
We got a little bit of a scoop, on what this says.
00:55:28.014 --> 00:55:31.217
But your final thoughts in in regard to this,
00:55:31.217 --> 00:55:35.021
This life that your mama puts you into,
00:55:35.021 --> 00:55:38.324
And you've had great success
00:55:38.925 --> 00:55:41.461
In seeing what god's done through you.
00:55:41.461 --> 00:55:44.497
Your final thoughts on on all of this?
00:55:44.497 --> 00:55:47.333
As we're saying goodbye today, my final thoughts are
00:55:47.333 --> 00:55:50.970
I can't wait to see the outcome in the communities
00:55:50.970 --> 00:55:53.740
When he's got to get back home and get back in those community
00:55:53.740 --> 00:55:57.110
Churches and start changing, and we see revival
00:55:57.110 --> 00:55:59.846
And we see our country healthier than ever before.
00:55:59.846 --> 00:56:03.183
That you've seen it work.
00:56:03.750 --> 00:56:05.552
It works.
00:56:05.552 --> 00:56:06.085
I know it works. yeah.
00:56:06.085 --> 00:56:07.220
And the prisons are doing it across the country now.
00:56:07.220 --> 00:56:09.556
So it's caught on.
00:56:09.556 --> 00:56:10.924
And we just opened california in that. great.
00:56:10.924 --> 00:56:13.259
Come on now.
00:56:13.259 --> 00:56:14.260
California needs all the help they can get.
00:56:14.260 --> 00:56:15.595
Well, i got a seminary.
00:56:15.595 --> 00:56:16.996
I can tell you they're fixing to have two
00:56:16.996 --> 00:56:19.432
That's going to be in nevada.
00:56:19.432 --> 00:56:20.934
We got that one set up.
00:56:20.934 --> 00:56:22.368
So we're just moving right along.
00:56:22.368 --> 00:56:25.438
God is with us, second chance, tbn second chance
00:56:25.438 --> 00:56:27.874
Second chance, you guys.
00:56:27.874 --> 00:56:29.542
Thank you for being with us.
00:56:29.542 --> 00:56:30.510
We'll see you next time.
00:56:30.510 --> 00:56:30.510

Burl Cain & CJ Orndorff: Transforming Lives Through Faith | Praise

June 24, 2025 | 58:25

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