Praise

Lee Strobel: Biblical Truths About the Supernatural | Praise

May 8, 2025 | 53:40

Sheila Walsh welcomes bestselling author Lee Strobel to discuss his new book, Seeing the Supernatural. Together, they explore thought-provoking topics like near-death experiences, demon possession, and spiritual warfare from a biblical perspective.

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Praise | Lee Strobel: Biblical Truths About the Supernatural | Praise | May 8, 2025

Coming up tonight on praise...
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It's pentecost sunday.
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They go to their church to thank god.
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The service had already started.
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The pastor gets up and says,
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Does anybody have any announcements?
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Boy, do i.
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So barbara comes walking down the center aisle.
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The place freaks out because they'd never seen her except
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In a wheelchair for seven years.
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The next day she goes to one of her doctors.
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And he said later, he said, when i saw her walking toward
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My office, my first thought was, oh, she died.
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This is a ghost.
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Because this is medically impossible.
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I, you know, people
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Thought i was so successful at the chicago tribune and so
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Forth writing books and doing tv, and they never saw me
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Drunk in the alley on saturday night.
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God rescued me from that.
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♪♪
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Tonight on praise from dallas, award winning investigative
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Journalist and best selling author, lee strobel.
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Now your host, sheila walsh.
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Gonna be so glad that you tuned in for this particular program,
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And never say that tbn is on the cutting edge.
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My guest tonight, the book hit the new york times
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Bestseller list even as we're taping this show today.
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Lee strobel, what a joy to have you here.
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Oh, so great to be back.
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Love you and your family and
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Your ministry here, just an honor.
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Do you know one of the things
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You do that absolutely blows me away?
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Because i follow you on twitter
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Yeah.
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X, whatever it's called.
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And you'll say, okay, i'm at dallas airport.
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I'm at gate, you know, b20.
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Yeah. if you want to talk, you just invite people to come.
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I've had some amazing conversations.
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I remember i was in the houston airport, i tweeted out, i'm
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At gate such and such, and everyone wants talk about
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Jesus, come on by.
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About twenty seconds later, a guy taps me on his shoulder,
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And i bought him breakfast, we had a great conversation.
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So maybe i would do a book
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Someday about all my airport conversations.
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I think that would be fascinating.
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But talk about twitter.
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We had an unusual experience.
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Yes.
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This is before i had ever met you.
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My wife had met you and we
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Connected on twitter, you and
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So i called you the best friend i'd never met because i would
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Ask you to pray for me for something coming up or you
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Ask me to pray for you for
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Something coming up or whatever.
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And then in 2011, i almost died.
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And i'm literally hovering between life and death in the
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Hospital and i have an mri.
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And i tweeted you directly and i said, sheila, would you
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Pray for me?
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I have an mri tomorrow morning.
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And you said, yes, i will.
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So, you know, when you do an mri, they put earphones on you
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And they flip to a random radio station because it's noisy and
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They put you they slide you into this machine.
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So, of course, i'm nervous about all this.
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They slide me in the machine and i hear sheila walsh
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Singing a song about faith.
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And i thought they happened to flip to a radio station and
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You were-- it was like god was
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Saying to me, hey, i got sheila
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Praying for you.
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I love sheila, so you're gonna be fine.
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And turned out to be okay.
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You know what i love about that?
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Because to me, that's just god's way.
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I mean, he's so kind to us.
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Despite i mean, above everything else he's done,
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There's so much of god's
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Kindness that i see all the time.
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But this new book of yours is kind of around those
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Same kind of -- it is.
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That's true.
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It's called seeing the supernatural, investigating
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Angels, demons, mystical dreams, near death encounters,
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And other mysteries of the unseen world.
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Yeah. what was the genesis of this for you?
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Well, i found out that eight out of ten americans believe
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That there is something beyond what we can see and touch.
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And yet there's all these wacky things, these paranormal,
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Strange things, scary things that people talk about.
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So i wanted to dig into, first of all, what is the evidence
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That indeed there is a realm beyond what we can see
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And but what does the bible say about it?
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Because that's my source of truth.
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And so i delved into it for a couple of years researching
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This book, interviewing scholars and experts on these
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Topics to try to present the case that, yes, there is a
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Realm beyond what we can see and touch, and yes, god loves
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Us and he cares about us.
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And when we read about things like angels, that would be
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Encouraging to us, that they're there to minister to us.
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And so i emerged with a stronger faith as a result of
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All the research that i did.
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I was wondering, sometimes you
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Interview people who are not believers.
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Yes. you know, who are skeptics.
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Yes. what did you learn from them, or what were you able to
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Impart to them?
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How were those encounters?
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I really enjoy those.
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I interviewed the most famous skeptic of canada, charles
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Stempleton, who ended up coming back to faith before he died
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And had a supernatural experience on his deathbed that
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We could talk about.
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I interviewed michael schirmer, the editor of skeptic magazine
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In the united states.
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And so i think it's only fair to get the other and so
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Whenever i interview a scholar or an expert, if i don't
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Interview somebody on the other side, at least i've read their
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Books, i want to challenge them
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With the questions that people have.
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I think that's why our son, like barry and i last night, we
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Let our son know that we were going to interview you today,
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And christian was like, oh, gosh.
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I cannot tell you how much i respect him.
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But part of it is because of that very thing.
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Uh-huh. you know, you don't just talk to the people who
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Will support yeah.
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Your core belief.
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You speak to the people who are
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Skeptical or who are absolutely against.
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Christian says, his research won't.
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His research.
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It must take him years to write a book.
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I love the research part because i get to meet
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Fascinating people and ask them the tough questions.
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And you know what amazes me?
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I've been doing that for a number of years.
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Nobody has ever raised a
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Question that's destroyed my faith.
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There's always been a comeback.
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I remember once a guy raised all these tough questions
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About the faith.
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I was a new christian at the time and i felt what i call
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Spiritual vertigo, that sense
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Of, uh-oh, he's raised a lot of things.
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I have no idea how to answer.
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And at the end i said to him, you know, sir, you've raised a
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Lot of questions.
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I don't know how to answer, but i don't think you're the first
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Person in two thousand years to destroy christianity.
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So let me find some answers.
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So i go out, i investigate, and there were good answers to
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Every single question he had and that ought to give us
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Confidence as christians that we have an unfair advantage in
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The marketplace of ideas.
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We have truth on our side.
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That's a big advantage.
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That is huge.
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And i think that's what my son and his generation love
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About your research.
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Because christian said, you don't have to check your brain
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When you read the book.
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Yeah. you know, science
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And faith, they meld together so they do.
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Exactly.
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Now, you mentioned this gentleman in canada who had
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A near death experience.
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Tell us about that.
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Yeah. you know, charles templeton was a pulpit partner
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Of billy graham, and billy graham loved him.
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He was his best friend.
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And everybody thought charles templeton was gonna be the
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Great evangelist.
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He was a better speaker than billy graham, but then he
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Went to a liberal seminary and lost his faith.
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And he wrote an ugly book called farewell to god, my
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Reasons for rejecting the christian faith.
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And so i interviewed him for my book, the case for faith,
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And i challenged him with, what are your objections?
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And i wrote a whole book answering his objections.
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And by then he was ill.
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He was starting to deteriorate physically.
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And his wife read him the book and she wrote me a very nice
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Letter saying he appreciated it.
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And i was making plans to go back to visit him when i got
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News he died.
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But what i disclose in this book is that before he died, he
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Apparently did come back to faith in jesus christ.
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And one of his good friends said, yeah, she's convinced
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That he had a personal
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Encounter with jesus before he died.
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But what happened was he's on
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His deathbed, his wife is named madeline.
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And he calls out and says, madeline, can you see them?
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Can you hear?
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They're here.
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They're coming for me.
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Said, what are you talking about?
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Angels, the angels, they're in the room.
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They're here.
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They're taking me to heaven.
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I'm gonna be with god.
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I'm going and this is so common that people see angels coming
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For them on their deathbed.
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They went to a large hospice facility in new york state, and
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They said to all the dying people there, if you have a
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Vision before you die that's unlike any dream you've ever
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Had, we'd like to know about it.
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Would you please tell us?
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Because some people are kind of afraid to talk about it.
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Think, you'll think i have dementia or something.
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Eighty eight percent of them had a pre death vision.
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And i think the other twelve percent may have had them
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But died before they were able to tell anybody.
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These are very common and often people will see and when you
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Think about it, in luke chapter 16, jesus tells a story
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Of a rich man who died and is in a place of torment and the
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Beggar, lazarus, who died and is a place of bliss.
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And in verse 22 he says, angels carried lazarus to
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The place of bliss.
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And so it is biblical that people would see angels
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Coming for them.
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And one last thing that's so fascinating to me, children
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Who are dying see angels coming for them.
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Wow.
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And it's a very big comfort for many of them have to comfort
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Their parents because they feel
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So secure in where they're going.
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But what's interesting is, if this were just something
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Conjured up by somebody's imagination, a child, you would
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Think, would picture angels like in caricatures or
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Cartoons with big wings.
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We have many cases, and one in particular, where a little girl
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Is dying and she says, mommy, mommy, can you see them?
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The angels, they're here.
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Look at their eyes, they're so beautiful.
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They're singing so beautiful.
00:09:20.016 --> 00:09:21.384
And her mother didn't wanna disappoint her, so she lied
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And she said, oh yeah, i see them.
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Look at their big wings.
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And the daughter said, oh mommy, you don't have to lie.
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They don't have big wings.
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And she went on to describe these angels in vivid detail.
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Oh my god.
00:09:36.766 --> 00:09:37.566
It's just amazing.
00:09:37.566 --> 00:09:40.336
That's phenomenal.
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Yeah. i had a really
00:09:41.904 --> 00:09:42.905
Interesting experience last week.
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I was speaking at a crisis pregnancy center in myrtle
00:09:44.407 --> 00:09:46.909
Beach and they'd asked me if i would sing at the end, which
00:09:46.909 --> 00:09:49.912
I don't do a lot.
00:09:49.912 --> 00:09:51.013
I want to be one of those people that quits before
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People ask them to quit.
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They never asked me, so there you go.
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But because they wanted me to, i did.
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And this older lady came up to me at the end and she said, i'm
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Not sure you were able to see it but while you were singing
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How great thou art, the room was filled with angels.
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Wow.
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And they were singing along with you.
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Wow. i
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Thought, gosh, it gave me chills, you know?
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You know what?
00:10:14.770 --> 00:10:15.671
I had an experience with an angel.
00:10:15.671 --> 00:10:17.206
Really? you know, sheila, i was embarrassed to tell
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Anybody about this for years.
00:10:20.142 --> 00:10:21.777
You know who i first told?
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I was being ordained and they have all these theologians who
00:10:23.512 --> 00:10:26.415
Question you about your doctrine and everything.
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And i'm thinking, do i tell them that i had an experience
00:10:28.284 --> 00:10:30.953
With an angel when i was twelve years old?
00:10:30.953 --> 00:10:33.689
And i think, yeah, i should tell them.
00:10:33.689 --> 00:10:35.391
So i told them and the response was, yeah, okay.
00:10:35.391 --> 00:10:38.661
Wow. but my experience--
00:10:38.661 --> 00:10:40.262
And mine is corroborated in this way.
00:10:40.262 --> 00:10:43.299
I'm twelve years old, an angel appears to me in the kitchen of
00:10:43.299 --> 00:10:46.268
My home, unlike any dream it's the only dream i remember as a
00:10:46.268 --> 00:10:49.305
Child, more vivid than any dream i ever had.
00:10:49.305 --> 00:10:51.807
And this angel begins extolling the beauty of heaven.
00:10:51.807 --> 00:10:55.811
And i said to the angel, well, i'm gonna go there someday.
00:10:55.811 --> 00:11:00.149
And he looked at me and said, how do you know?
00:11:00.149 --> 00:11:02.351
What do you mean?
00:11:02.785 --> 00:11:03.786
How do i know?
00:11:03.786 --> 00:11:04.553
What kind of question is that?
00:11:04.553 --> 00:11:05.287
I'm a good kid.
00:11:05.654 --> 00:11:06.288
I obey my parents.
00:11:06.288 --> 00:11:07.523
I get good grades in school.
00:11:07.523 --> 00:11:09.892
I was at sunday school a couple of times, i'm kind of trying
00:11:09.892 --> 00:11:13.696
To give justification how good a kid i am.
00:11:13.696 --> 00:11:16.532
And the angel says, that doesn't matter.
00:11:16.532 --> 00:11:20.136
And a chill went through my how can it not matter that all my
00:11:20.136 --> 00:11:23.272
Efforts should be a good kid?
00:11:23.272 --> 00:11:24.540
And then he said, someday you'll understand.
00:11:24.540 --> 00:11:27.276
Wow. sixteen years later, by then i was an atheist.
00:11:27.276 --> 00:11:30.412
I wrote off this thing, oh, it was a bad pizza the
00:11:30.412 --> 00:11:32.782
Night before, i'm not gonna believe it.
00:11:32.782 --> 00:11:34.316
And sixteen years later, i go to church with my wife.
00:11:34.316 --> 00:11:36.952
I'm an atheist.
00:11:36.952 --> 00:11:38.154
I hear the gospel for the first time.
00:11:38.154 --> 00:11:40.289
And i get it.
00:11:40.656 --> 00:11:42.291
It isn't based on my good deeds.
00:11:42.291 --> 00:11:44.059
It's not based on how good you try to be that opens
00:11:44.059 --> 00:11:47.263
The door of heaven.
00:11:47.263 --> 00:11:48.497
It is a free gift of god's grace and we need to receive
00:11:48.497 --> 00:11:50.900
In repentance and faith.
00:11:50.900 --> 00:11:52.268
And when i heard this for the first time, i thought
00:11:52.268 --> 00:11:55.304
Back to that dream.
00:11:55.304 --> 00:11:56.338
And that's what the angel was getting at.
00:11:56.338 --> 00:11:58.407
So two things.
00:11:58.774 --> 00:11:59.809
Number one, he told me something at that time
00:11:59.809 --> 00:12:02.077
I did not know.
00:12:02.077 --> 00:12:03.245
And secondly, he made a prophecy that came true
00:12:03.245 --> 00:12:06.649
Sixteen years later.
00:12:06.649 --> 00:12:08.284
Wow. so to me, that's corroboration.
00:12:08.284 --> 00:12:10.186
That was more than just a bad pizza i had before.
00:12:10.186 --> 00:12:12.521
You know, it's interesting.
00:12:12.521 --> 00:12:14.156
My only personal experience of an angel
00:12:14.156 --> 00:12:16.492
Made me question whether i should tell anyone or not
00:12:17.526 --> 00:12:19.662
Because it was in a psychiatric hospital.
00:12:19.662 --> 00:12:22.765
You don't really want to tell people, but it was-- i'd
00:12:22.765 --> 00:12:27.136
Been on the seven 700 club for five i'd been a christian
00:12:27.136 --> 00:12:30.206
Since i was eleven, but i had an absolute breakdown and
00:12:30.206 --> 00:12:33.576
Was hospitalized for severe clinical depression.
00:12:33.576 --> 00:12:35.411
And the first night that i'm in the hospital, i had my own
00:12:35.411 --> 00:12:38.914
Room but no locks, no mirrors.
00:12:38.914 --> 00:12:40.816
I don't get in the bed.
00:12:41.317 --> 00:12:42.651
I take the blanket off the bed and i sit in the corner of the
00:12:42.651 --> 00:12:44.386
Room, and i was on suicide watch the first night.
00:12:44.386 --> 00:12:46.956
They checked on me every fifteen minutes.
00:12:46.956 --> 00:12:48.524
And i remember thinking, this morning, i was trusted with
00:12:48.524 --> 00:12:51.527
A national television audience.
00:12:51.527 --> 00:12:52.761
Tonight, i'm not trusted with my hairdryer.
00:12:52.761 --> 00:12:54.663
Wow. very stark.
00:12:54.663 --> 00:12:56.031
Wow. but i sat with my head on my knees, and i could hear
00:12:56.031 --> 00:12:58.701
People come into my room every
00:12:58.701 --> 00:12:59.902
Fifteen minutes by ignoring them.
00:12:59.902 --> 00:13:01.770
But at three o'clock in the morning, the person who came
00:13:01.770 --> 00:13:04.907
Into my room, and he looked like maybe a doctor going off
00:13:04.907 --> 00:13:06.909
Duty, when he came right over to where i was, i looked up
00:13:06.909 --> 00:13:10.679
And he was holding something and he gave it to me.
00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:12.648
I still have it.
00:13:12.648 --> 00:13:13.782
And he's it was something you'd give a child.
00:13:13.782 --> 00:13:16.285
It was a little stuffed lamb.
00:13:16.285 --> 00:13:17.553
And he went to the door, and when he got the door,
00:13:17.553 --> 00:13:19.955
He turned around and he said this.
00:13:19.955 --> 00:13:21.156
He said, sheila, the shepherd knows where to find you.
00:13:21.156 --> 00:13:23.893
Because i felt i was i was lost.
00:13:23.893 --> 00:13:26.262
Yeah. you know, i've been told by other people, if you go
00:13:26.262 --> 00:13:28.764
To a psych hospital, your ministry is done.
00:13:28.764 --> 00:13:30.432
No one will ever trust you again.
00:13:30.432 --> 00:13:31.901
Yeah. but the kindness of god in those moments where you
00:13:31.901 --> 00:13:35.938
Just feel and it changed everything for me.
00:13:35.938 --> 00:13:37.539
Yeah. wow.
00:13:37.539 --> 00:13:38.641
Wow.
00:13:38.641 --> 00:13:39.808
But so one of the things i wanted to ask you because
00:13:39.808 --> 00:13:41.810
I went on facebook last night yeah.
00:13:41.810 --> 00:13:43.145
And i said to people, i'm gonna get to interview lee strobel
00:13:43.145 --> 00:13:45.314
And this is the subject of the book.
00:13:45.314 --> 00:13:47.283
Would you like to know?
00:13:47.283 --> 00:13:48.617
Yeah. and one of the questions was, how do you know? i mean,
00:13:48.617 --> 00:13:50.953
I want to experience-- yeah.
00:13:50.953 --> 00:13:52.288
That super-- but how do i know that it's in keeping with god's
00:13:52.288 --> 00:13:55.190
God's word and not getting messed up with things i
00:13:55.190 --> 00:13:57.393
Shouldn't get messed up?
00:13:57.393 --> 00:13:58.027
Very important question.
00:13:58.027 --> 00:13:59.361
And it's one the things i deal with in the book is how do you
00:13:59.361 --> 00:14:01.563
Know this is not a counterfeit?
00:14:01.563 --> 00:14:02.932
Right. because the bible says that satan can appear as
00:14:02.932 --> 00:14:07.136
An angel of light.
00:14:07.136 --> 00:14:07.770
He can be a counterfeit.
00:14:07.770 --> 00:14:09.271
And there's a lot of paranormal
00:14:09.271 --> 00:14:11.540
Stuff that is wacky and is not biblical.
00:14:11.540 --> 00:14:15.778
And, know, for instance, psychics.
00:14:15.778 --> 00:14:17.513
I have a chapter where i deal with psychics.
00:14:17.513 --> 00:14:19.415
There's a lot of people, and
00:14:19.415 --> 00:14:20.649
The bible says, stay away from that.
00:14:20.649 --> 00:14:22.718
And for good reason.
00:14:23.185 --> 00:14:24.386
And i expose in the book how psychics trick people into
00:14:24.386 --> 00:14:27.690
Thinking they know more than they really know.
00:14:27.690 --> 00:14:30.025
And i think the bottom line is scripture.
00:14:30.893 --> 00:14:32.761
Yeah. we need to the bible says in ephesians, put on the
00:14:32.761 --> 00:14:36.031
Full armor of god.
00:14:36.031 --> 00:14:37.199
And part of that is to understand scripture so that
00:14:37.199 --> 00:14:39.768
We can spot something that is not right.
00:14:39.768 --> 00:14:42.771
And so, for instance, when we see something like for an
00:14:42.771 --> 00:14:47.276
Outbreak of supernatural dreams among muslims in closed
00:14:47.276 --> 00:14:50.813
Countries where they're experiencing jesus, and these
00:14:50.813 --> 00:14:53.649
Are dreams that are
00:14:53.649 --> 00:14:54.583
Corroborated by outside experiences.
00:14:54.583 --> 00:14:57.319
Well, there's 200 examples in the bible of
00:14:58.153 --> 00:15:00.656
Supernatural dreams, and we see them in the old testament
00:15:00.656 --> 00:15:02.891
And the new so there's something there.
00:15:02.891 --> 00:15:04.760
These deathbed visions that i mentioned, like for instance,
00:15:04.760 --> 00:15:07.529
When charles templeton saw angels coming for him. we see
00:15:07.529 --> 00:15:10.032
In acts where stephen is about to be stoned
00:15:10.032 --> 00:15:13.402
And he sees the heavens open up and he sees the father
00:15:13.402 --> 00:15:16.271
And the son together.
00:15:16.271 --> 00:15:17.072
So he has a pre death vision.
00:15:17.072 --> 00:15:19.041
So i wanna say, i don't base my belief about the supernatural
00:15:19.041 --> 00:15:23.779
Realm on stories and things i read on the internet.
00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:27.182
I base it on scripture.
00:15:27.182 --> 00:15:28.450
Yeah.
00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:29.718
And then i see things that are consistent with scripture.
00:15:29.718 --> 00:15:31.954
For instance, there are forty seven points of correspondence
00:15:31.954 --> 00:15:35.891
Between scriptural teaching and near death experiences
00:15:35.891 --> 00:15:39.395
And deathbed visions.
00:15:39.395 --> 00:15:40.696
Wow. john burke, is actually a good friend of mine, is a--
00:15:40.696 --> 00:15:44.400
Do you know john?
00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:44.900
Oh, gosh, yeah.
00:15:44.900 --> 00:15:45.701
Yeah.
00:15:45.701 --> 00:15:46.769
John is an expert on near death experiences.
00:15:46.769 --> 00:15:48.303
He wrote the book on it, studied a thousand of them.
00:15:48.303 --> 00:15:50.305
And he points out that when you look at not how people
00:15:50.305 --> 00:15:54.777
Interpret a near death experience, but what actually
00:15:54.777 --> 00:15:57.146
Takes place, it's consistent with what the bible teaches.
00:15:57.146 --> 00:16:01.383
So i think that's-- i base my beliefs on the bible.
00:16:01.383 --> 00:16:05.054
But the bible says, guess what?
00:16:05.054 --> 00:16:06.555
There's a supernatural realm.
00:16:06.555 --> 00:16:07.689
Yeah. and angels are real, and demons are real.
00:16:07.689 --> 00:16:10.392
Yeah. and there's a realm
00:16:10.392 --> 00:16:11.660
Beyond what we can see and touch.
00:16:11.660 --> 00:16:13.162
What was interesting in your book, you talk about the
00:16:13.162 --> 00:16:15.164
Number, the percentage of americans who believe that
00:16:15.164 --> 00:16:17.766
Angels are real.
00:16:17.766 --> 00:16:18.634
Yes. and it was a smaller
00:16:18.634 --> 00:16:19.635
Percentage that believed in demons.
00:16:19.635 --> 00:16:21.270
I know.
00:16:21.270 --> 00:16:21.904
Isn't that-- yeah.
00:16:21.904 --> 00:16:22.905
Numbers are all over the board.
00:16:23.572 --> 00:16:25.641
The percent of americans who believe in certain supernatural
00:16:25.641 --> 00:16:30.412
Things actually gone down in recent years.
00:16:30.412 --> 00:16:32.781
It's still at a relatively robust level, but i think
00:16:32.781 --> 00:16:36.385
There's curiosity that people have.
00:16:36.385 --> 00:16:38.153
But there's a danger there too, because you can delve into some
00:16:38.153 --> 00:16:41.290
Things that are a counterfeit, that are demonic and so forth,
00:16:41.290 --> 00:16:44.827
And you don't wanna go there.
00:16:44.827 --> 00:16:46.161
So let's focus on what the bible teaches, because you
00:16:46.161 --> 00:16:49.665
Talked about the kindness of god, and you think about
00:16:49.665 --> 00:16:53.035
Angels, for and there are many scholars going back to jerome,
00:16:53.035 --> 00:16:57.139
The great bible translator, thomas aquinas, who believed
00:16:57.139 --> 00:17:00.275
That christians have a guardian angel.
00:17:00.275 --> 00:17:03.779
Wow. and there's two passages in scripture that seem
00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:06.281
To support that.
00:17:06.281 --> 00:17:07.316
And wouldn't that just be like god?
00:17:07.316 --> 00:17:09.551
Yes. and his love and kindness to say, let me kinda
00:17:09.551 --> 00:17:13.388
Help you out here.
00:17:13.388 --> 00:17:14.590
I'm gonna assign an angel to kinda protect you a bit.
00:17:14.590 --> 00:17:17.326
If you're just joining us, i'm so glad you're tuning in
00:17:17.326 --> 00:17:20.529
Because this is gonna be an amazing program.
00:17:20.529 --> 00:17:22.764
So many people have questions about it.
00:17:22.764 --> 00:17:24.266
Like, somebody texted me last night and said, is it okay to
00:17:24.266 --> 00:17:26.401
Read my horoscope with my daily devotionals?
00:17:26.401 --> 00:17:29.138
I'm interviewing lee strobel.
00:17:29.138 --> 00:17:31.273
His book is seeing the supernatural.
00:17:31.273 --> 00:17:34.009
You really wanna get ahold of a copy of this book.
00:17:34.009 --> 00:17:36.311
It's not something you just flick through, but it's all
00:17:36.311 --> 00:17:38.914
Questions you've had in these areas.
00:17:38.914 --> 00:17:41.183
I mean, your research alone, lee, is phenomenal in terms of
00:17:41.183 --> 00:17:44.953
The people you speak to and how
00:17:44.953 --> 00:17:46.388
Long it must take you to do this.
00:17:46.388 --> 00:17:48.323
But i wondered, you talk in the book a lot too about miracles.
00:17:48.323 --> 00:17:51.894
Yes. and those stories are so
00:17:51.894 --> 00:17:53.662
Moving, but there's one in particular.
00:17:53.662 --> 00:17:54.897
I'm trying to think what the girl's name was.
00:17:54.897 --> 00:17:56.165
Yeah. but she had extreme multiple sclerosis.
00:17:56.165 --> 00:18:00.035
Oh, you're talking about barbara.
00:18:00.035 --> 00:18:01.036
Barbara schneider.
00:18:01.036 --> 00:18:01.870
Yes. talk a little about how--
00:18:01.870 --> 00:18:03.639
I became friends with barbara.
00:18:03.639 --> 00:18:04.773
You did?
00:18:04.773 --> 00:18:05.240
Yeah, i did.
00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:06.341
Barbara snyder, wonderful woman, when she was in
00:18:06.341 --> 00:18:09.912
High school, contracted multiple sclerosis.
00:18:09.912 --> 00:18:12.581
She was diagnosed at the mayo clinic.
00:18:12.581 --> 00:18:14.516
We have all those records in the mayo clinic.
00:18:14.516 --> 00:18:16.385
She deteriorated very quickly, and over the next decade
00:18:16.385 --> 00:18:20.022
Or so, she had multiple hospitalizations
00:18:20.022 --> 00:18:23.392
To the point where one of her doctors said, she is one of
00:18:23.392 --> 00:18:26.528
The most hopelessly ill patients i've ever treated.
00:18:26.528 --> 00:18:29.665
And finally they said,
00:18:30.165 --> 00:18:32.267
We just-- next time she gets pneumonia, which she got
00:18:32.267 --> 00:18:34.536
Periodic, we're just gonna have to let her die because we're
00:18:34.536 --> 00:18:37.039
Just prolonging the inevitable.
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:38.207
So here she is in hospice.
00:18:38.207 --> 00:18:39.441
She's dying at her home.
00:18:39.441 --> 00:18:41.310
She has a tube in her throat connected to oxygen
00:18:41.310 --> 00:18:45.514
Canisters in the garage to feed so she could breathe.
00:18:45.514 --> 00:18:47.950
She's curled up like a pretzel.
00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:49.518
Her fingers are touching her wrists.
00:18:49.518 --> 00:18:51.286
Her feet are extended rigidly.
00:18:51.286 --> 00:18:53.288
She hadn't walked in seven years and so her muscle
00:18:53.288 --> 00:18:56.191
Tone had disappeared.
00:18:56.191 --> 00:18:57.526
She had one lung was collapsed,
00:18:57.526 --> 00:19:00.162
The other one was at fifty percent.
00:19:00.162 --> 00:19:02.030
She had lost her vision, so all she could see was gray shapes.
00:19:02.030 --> 00:19:06.301
It wasn't totally blind, just saw gray shapes.
00:19:06.301 --> 00:19:08.136
She lost control of her bowels and her urination.
00:19:08.136 --> 00:19:11.940
And here she is, she's dying.
00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:13.442
And so somebody called up wmbi, the christian radio station at
00:19:13.442 --> 00:19:16.912
Moody bible institute in chicago, because she lived in
00:19:16.912 --> 00:19:19.147
Wheaton, illinois, and said, would you just ask people
00:19:19.147 --> 00:19:22.784
To pray for this poor woman who's dying?
00:19:22.784 --> 00:19:25.287
Well, we documented over 450 people began praying for
00:19:25.287 --> 00:19:29.024
Her because they wrote her letters saying, i'm praying for
00:19:29.024 --> 00:19:30.659
So on pentecost sunday, she's there in her bedroom and she
00:19:30.659 --> 00:19:36.031
Has two friends who are reading her some of these letters of
00:19:36.031 --> 00:19:39.067
People saying they're praying for you.
00:19:39.067 --> 00:19:40.769
And all of a sudden, she hears a voice from the corner of the
00:19:40.769 --> 00:19:44.039
Room, the voice of god saying, get up, my child, and walk.
00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:48.076
Wow. and she pulls the tube from her throat so she could
00:19:48.076 --> 00:19:54.149
Talk and she says, god just told me to get up and walk.
00:19:54.149 --> 00:19:56.551
Go get my parents.
00:19:56.551 --> 00:19:57.519
And so they ran out to get--
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.655
She couldn't wait.
00:19:59.655 --> 00:20:00.389
She jumped out of bed.
00:20:00.389 --> 00:20:01.657
And she hasn't walked in seven years?
00:20:01.657 --> 00:20:02.924
She walked in seven years.
00:20:02.924 --> 00:20:04.026
And i'll tell you something.
00:20:04.026 --> 00:20:05.294
I talked to her about it and i said, what was that like?
00:20:05.294 --> 00:20:08.063
And she said, it was the strangest thing.
00:20:08.063 --> 00:20:10.065
She said, i jumped out of bed.
00:20:10.065 --> 00:20:11.633
She said, the first thing i noticed was my feet were flat
00:20:11.633 --> 00:20:14.202
On the ground and my feet hadn't been flat in years.
00:20:14.202 --> 00:20:17.406
And then the second thing
00:20:17.406 --> 00:20:18.407
I noticed, my hands had come uncurled.
00:20:18.407 --> 00:20:21.076
And she said, the third thing i noticed, i could see.
00:20:21.076 --> 00:20:23.712
Wow. and she said, you'd think
00:20:24.413 --> 00:20:26.415
That'd be the first thing i'd notice.
00:20:26.415 --> 00:20:27.816
It was the third thing i noticed.
00:20:27.816 --> 00:20:29.384
Her mother comes in, falls to her knees, grabs her calves
00:20:29.384 --> 00:20:32.321
And said, your muscles have come back.
00:20:32.321 --> 00:20:34.156
Oh my god.
00:20:34.156 --> 00:20:35.023
Well, it's pentecost sunday.
00:20:35.023 --> 00:20:36.391
They go to their church to thank god.
00:20:36.391 --> 00:20:38.160
And there's a service that night.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:39.828
The service had already started.
00:20:39.828 --> 00:20:41.663
The pastor gets up and says,
00:20:41.663 --> 00:20:42.931
Does anybody have any announcements?
00:20:42.931 --> 00:20:44.933
Boy, do i.
00:20:44.933 --> 00:20:46.868
So barbara comes walking down the center aisle.
00:20:45.801 --> 00:20:49.404
The place freaks out because they'd never seen her except
00:20:49.404 --> 00:20:52.407
In a wheelchair for seven years.
00:20:52.407 --> 00:20:54.276
And they began singing amazing grace, i once was blind
00:20:54.276 --> 00:20:57.512
And now i see.
00:20:57.512 --> 00:20:58.814
Wow. and the next day she goes to one of her doctors and he
00:20:58.814 --> 00:21:02.050
Said later, he said, when i saw her walking toward my office,
00:21:02.050 --> 00:21:04.820
My first thought was, oh, she died and this is a ghost,
00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:08.023
Because this is medically impossible.
00:21:08.023 --> 00:21:10.659
And two doctors ended up writing about it in books.
00:21:10.659 --> 00:21:13.395
Wow. and barbara ended up marrying a pastor, wesleyan
00:21:13.395 --> 00:21:18.033
Pastor, at a little church in fredericksburg, virginia.
00:21:18.033 --> 00:21:20.202
Oh, what a story.
00:21:20.202 --> 00:21:21.403
And i got to know her, interviewed her and so forth.
00:21:21.403 --> 00:21:24.139
But yeah, so what do you do with that?
00:21:24.139 --> 00:21:25.907
Yeah. what do you do with the voice that she heard?
00:21:25.907 --> 00:21:28.810
And what do you do with multiple sclerosis being
00:21:28.810 --> 00:21:31.279
Instantly healed?
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:32.280
You sing amazing grace.
00:21:32.280 --> 00:21:33.448
You sing amazing grace, exactly.
00:21:33.448 --> 00:21:35.650
Because there's no other explanation.
00:21:35.650 --> 00:21:37.652
That's right.
00:21:37.652 --> 00:21:38.420
What do you say though, lee?
00:21:38.420 --> 00:21:39.488
I know this is an unfair question, but you're lee
00:21:39.488 --> 00:21:41.323
Strobel so i get to ask you unfair questions.
00:21:41.323 --> 00:21:43.658
What do you do with the people who are sitting at home saying,
00:21:43.658 --> 00:21:45.527
Well, that's phenomenal, but god's not healing me.
00:21:45.527 --> 00:21:47.763
Why?
00:21:47.763 --> 00:21:48.697
That's a personal question for me because my wife has
00:21:49.765 --> 00:21:52.768
A neuromuscular condition and she
00:21:52.768 --> 00:21:54.703
Has been in pain for twenty years.
00:21:54.703 --> 00:21:56.905
And she will be in pain every day for the rest of her
00:21:56.905 --> 00:21:59.541
Life, unless god intervenes and heals and he hasn't.
00:21:59.541 --> 00:22:01.643
And we prayed for healing and it hasn't come.
00:22:01.643 --> 00:22:04.045
So this is a personal issue.
00:22:04.679 --> 00:22:06.415
And i interviewed a scholar about this, doctor.
00:22:06.415 --> 00:22:09.551
Douglas grotheiss, whose own wife was dying of a brain
00:22:09.551 --> 00:22:12.954
Condition, ended up dying after i interviewed him.
00:22:12.954 --> 00:22:15.390
He's a great christian philosopher.
00:22:15.390 --> 00:22:17.692
And he made several important points.
00:22:17.692 --> 00:22:19.428
Number one, the bible says god will heal us.
00:22:19.428 --> 00:22:22.030
Now, sometimes it will be in
00:22:22.030 --> 00:22:23.265
The transition to the life to come.
00:22:23.265 --> 00:22:25.033
But he said, you know, healing was not automatic
00:22:25.033 --> 00:22:29.271
In the new testament either.
00:22:29.271 --> 00:22:30.038
No. you know,
00:22:30.038 --> 00:22:32.007
Paul went off on a
00:22:32.441 --> 00:22:34.009
Mission's trip and left trophimus behind sick.
00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:36.511
And in one chapter, jesus gives the disciples the authority to
00:22:36.511 --> 00:22:39.815
Heal, and then seven chapters later, they couldn't heal
00:22:39.815 --> 00:22:41.883
An epileptic boy. yeah.
00:22:41.883 --> 00:22:43.552
So it wasn't automatic in biblical times either.
00:22:43.552 --> 00:22:46.688
And we see, so i believe god will heal us all.
00:22:46.688 --> 00:22:50.525
And i believe god has and does use these trials and
00:22:50.525 --> 00:22:54.896
Tribulations in our life for our ultimate good.
00:22:54.896 --> 00:22:57.766
Mean, we like to quote romans 8:28, god will
00:22:57.766 --> 00:23:00.035
Cause all things to work together for good, for those
00:23:00.035 --> 00:23:01.903
Who love god and called according to his purpose.
00:23:01.903 --> 00:23:04.306
And it's almost a cliche, but it's true.
00:23:04.306 --> 00:23:06.508
It's in the bible.
00:23:06.508 --> 00:23:08.176
And you interviewed, i'm sure, jonni erickson tada.
00:23:08.176 --> 00:23:11.680
Oh, she's one of my dearest friends.
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.181
You know, and jennifer rothschild is blind.
00:23:13.181 --> 00:23:16.651
And these people who go through these incredible traumas,
00:23:16.651 --> 00:23:19.387
And yet god has used them in powerful and
00:23:19.387 --> 00:23:22.390
I look at my wife and she is a woman of love and compassion
00:23:23.558 --> 00:23:26.661
And empathy. oh, leslie, wonderful.
00:23:26.661 --> 00:23:28.697
That i don't know, would she be the same if she wasn't
00:23:28.697 --> 00:23:32.634
Going through so
00:23:32.634 --> 00:23:34.135
It's a difficult question.
00:23:34.703 --> 00:23:35.770
It's an important question.
00:23:35.770 --> 00:23:36.638
It's a legitimate question.
00:23:36.638 --> 00:23:37.772
Absolutely.
00:23:37.772 --> 00:23:39.407
And yet i don't think it should stop us from celebrating
00:23:39.407 --> 00:23:42.143
Those extraordinary cases where god,
00:23:42.143 --> 00:23:43.778
Because it does two things, sheila.
00:23:43.778 --> 00:23:45.947
Not only does a miracle like the one i talked about or
00:23:45.947 --> 00:23:48.383
Others that i document in the book, and by the way, i put the
00:23:48.383 --> 00:23:50.652
Footnotes with the references to the medical journals.
00:23:50.652 --> 00:23:53.555
I looked up several of
00:23:53.555 --> 00:23:54.656
Those, they're amazing.
00:23:54.656 --> 00:23:55.323
Look at it yourself.
00:23:55.323 --> 00:23:57.325
But not only do these miracles point toward the existence of
00:23:57.325 --> 00:24:01.396
God, but the other thing they do, when i was an atheist and i
00:24:01.396 --> 00:24:04.666
Would read the gospels, i'd say, this is fantasy land.
00:24:04.666 --> 00:24:08.703
It's talking about healings.
00:24:08.703 --> 00:24:10.272
God can't heal things like that
00:24:10.272 --> 00:24:12.407
Because it violates the laws of nature.
00:24:12.407 --> 00:24:15.277
And so i'm gonna dismiss the gospels as being fantasy.
00:24:15.277 --> 00:24:19.814
But if miracles are happening today, they could very well
00:24:19.814 --> 00:24:23.285
Have happened at jesus' day.
00:24:23.285 --> 00:24:24.452
Yes. and so this gives credibility to the gospels.
00:24:24.452 --> 00:24:27.155
And so there's--
00:24:27.155 --> 00:24:28.823
Yeah, that's true.
00:24:28.823 --> 00:24:29.691
Yeah. if you're just joining us,
00:24:29.691 --> 00:24:31.393
I'm talking to lee strobel.
00:24:31.393 --> 00:24:33.061
This is a phenomenal book, seeing the supernatural.
00:24:33.061 --> 00:24:36.665
So many people have questions.
00:24:36.665 --> 00:24:38.066
You know, the one experience i personally had of someone being
00:24:38.066 --> 00:24:41.269
Ridiculously healed, i mean, there was a woman called
00:24:41.269 --> 00:24:44.639
Jennifer rees larkham.
00:24:44.639 --> 00:24:45.807
Her dad was a very well known
00:24:45.807 --> 00:24:47.642
Preacher, evangelist in england.
00:24:47.642 --> 00:24:50.278
And she had been in a wheelchair for years,
00:24:50.278 --> 00:24:53.515
Totally incapacitated, shrunken legs,
00:24:53.515 --> 00:24:55.650
Believed god could heal her, but hadn't.
00:24:56.518 --> 00:24:59.154
And then one sunday morning before she went to church and
00:24:59.154 --> 00:25:01.656
She's going to speak somewhere, she feels god telling her,
00:25:01.656 --> 00:25:04.392
Today's the day.
00:25:04.392 --> 00:25:05.360
So, she gets through her whole message.
00:25:05.360 --> 00:25:08.029
They get through the worship.
00:25:08.029 --> 00:25:09.064
Nothing has happened, and she thinks, wow.
00:25:09.064 --> 00:25:11.166
So she actually makes an announcement to the
00:25:11.166 --> 00:25:12.901
Congregation and said, i believe i'm supposed to be
00:25:12.901 --> 00:25:15.804
Healed today, but i don't know which one of you is supposed
00:25:15.804 --> 00:25:18.406
To pray for me.
00:25:18.406 --> 00:25:19.608
And a young woman got up and walked out, and somebody
00:25:19.608 --> 00:25:23.144
Followed her and this young woman went to the restroom.
00:25:23.144 --> 00:25:26.147
She had only been a christian for a week, but she felt
00:25:26.147 --> 00:25:29.517
God say, you're the one.
00:25:29.517 --> 00:25:30.619
Wow. and her thing was, lord, i don't even know.
00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:32.787
I couldn't find matthew's
00:25:32.787 --> 00:25:33.888
Gospel if jumped up in my porridge.
00:25:33.888 --> 00:25:35.890
So she's and but god says, no, you're the one.
00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:39.194
So this woman who's had kind of colorful life and has only been
00:25:39.194 --> 00:25:43.665
A christian a week comes and lays hands with jennifer,
00:25:43.665 --> 00:25:47.035
Does not say a big fancy prayer because
00:25:47.035 --> 00:25:48.403
She doesn't
00:25:48.403 --> 00:25:49.571
Have big fancy words and god immediately healed her.
00:25:49.571 --> 00:25:51.773
Things like that are just to it's like saying, we don't
00:25:51.773 --> 00:25:54.075
Get to put god in a box.
00:25:54.075 --> 00:25:55.176
Oh, i know how god works.
00:25:55.176 --> 00:25:56.645
No, god works however god works.
00:25:56.645 --> 00:25:58.313
Yes. i tell the story in my book.
00:25:58.313 --> 00:26:00.081
Again, this is documented in a medical journal.
00:26:00.081 --> 00:26:02.050
It's a case study.
00:26:02.050 --> 00:26:03.284
It was documented by four medical researchers of a woman
00:26:03.284 --> 00:26:06.021
Who was blind for a dozen years.
00:26:06.021 --> 00:26:08.390
She went to a school for the blind.
00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:10.025
She learned to read braille.
00:26:10.025 --> 00:26:11.326
She walked with a white cane and married a baptist pastor.
00:26:11.326 --> 00:26:14.562
And one night they're getting ready for bed and he begins
00:26:14.562 --> 00:26:17.766
Crying and he puts his hand on her shoulder and begins to
00:26:17.766 --> 00:26:20.568
Pray and say, god, i know you can heal my wife.
00:26:20.568 --> 00:26:22.404
I know you can.
00:26:22.404 --> 00:26:23.271
And lord, i pray you do it tonight.
00:26:23.271 --> 00:26:25.640
And she opened her eyes in perfect vision,
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:27.909
Which has stayed for 47 years since then.
00:26:28.777 --> 00:26:31.513
This is a long documented case.
00:26:31.513 --> 00:26:35.150
And you know, it's an incurable
00:26:35.150 --> 00:26:37.452
Condition that she was cured of.
00:26:37.452 --> 00:26:39.054
And so here we have a medical journal publishing this case
00:26:39.054 --> 00:26:42.323
Study of this otherwise incurable condition being
00:26:42.323 --> 00:26:45.193
Instantly healed after prayers of jesus christ.
00:26:45.193 --> 00:26:48.496
I don't know what else to do with that except to say there
00:26:49.664 --> 00:26:53.868
Is a god and he does love us.
00:26:54.536 --> 00:26:56.571
And sometimes he, in his kindness and in his grace,
00:26:56.571 --> 00:27:00.909
Reaches down and does something extraordinary like that.
00:27:00.909 --> 00:27:03.278
And i love that god doesn't always do it the same way.
00:27:03.278 --> 00:27:05.914
Yeah. because when i was at the 700 club, we had a man
00:27:05.914 --> 00:27:08.650
Who drove his wife who was sick seven hours to the studio
00:27:08.650 --> 00:27:12.554
Because somehow he believed that if pat robertson prayed
00:27:12.554 --> 00:27:15.457
For his wife, she would
00:27:15.457 --> 00:27:16.891
Be healed, as if there's some formula.
00:27:16.891 --> 00:27:18.927
You have to find somebody--
00:27:18.927 --> 00:27:20.261
And that's why i love the fact that with jennifer's healing,
00:27:20.261 --> 00:27:23.431
It was somebody who had just come into the kingdom.
00:27:23.431 --> 00:27:25.633
Unbelievable.
00:27:25.633 --> 00:27:26.835
And she still didn't even know very much about faith.
00:27:26.835 --> 00:27:28.536
Yeah. so that's what i love, and i love that in your book
00:27:28.536 --> 00:27:31.272
Because you have but here's what i really want you to
00:27:31.272 --> 00:27:33.775
Talk about because this blows me away.
00:27:33.775 --> 00:27:35.276
Jesus appearing to people in countries that are
00:27:35.276 --> 00:27:39.147
Closed to the yes,
00:27:39.147 --> 00:27:39.347
This is fascinating.
00:27:39.814 --> 00:27:41.149
I interviewed tom doyle, who's the world's leading expert on
00:27:41.149 --> 00:27:42.884
This, and it is a phenomenon sweeping the middle east, often
00:27:42.884 --> 00:27:47.388
In countries where it's illegal to share the gospel of
00:27:47.388 --> 00:27:50.759
But that doesn't stop god.
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:52.093
And so we've had more muslims come to faith in jesus christ
00:27:52.093 --> 00:27:56.164
In the last few decades than in the 1400 years
00:27:56.164 --> 00:27:59.567
Since muhammad.
00:27:59.567 --> 00:28:00.268
Wow.
00:28:00.268 --> 00:28:01.336
And a third to a quarter of them have had a jesus
00:28:01.336 --> 00:28:04.572
Dream leading up to their conversion.
00:28:04.572 --> 00:28:06.541
Now, what's interesting about these dreams is you would
00:28:06.541 --> 00:28:10.145
Think, oh, well, maybe this is something just conjured up
00:28:10.145 --> 00:28:12.413
In their subconscious.
00:28:12.413 --> 00:28:13.648
Well, first of all, a devout muslim has no incentive to
00:28:13.648 --> 00:28:16.518
Dream about the jesus of christianity and maybe fall
00:28:16.518 --> 00:28:19.521
Into apostasy and face a death sentence in a closed so
00:28:19.521 --> 00:28:23.024
There's no incentive for that.
00:28:23.024 --> 00:28:24.259
But the other thing is, what happens in these cases is,
00:28:24.259 --> 00:28:27.061
And we document it in the book,
00:28:27.061 --> 00:28:28.863
They don't go to sleep as
00:28:29.430 --> 00:28:30.899
A muslim and wake up as a christian.
00:28:30.899 --> 00:28:33.401
There's outside corroboration that shows this true.
00:28:33.401 --> 00:28:36.538
I'll tell you an example of a woman named noor.
00:28:36.538 --> 00:28:39.207
She's a muslim mother of eight in cairo, egypt.
00:28:39.207 --> 00:28:42.644
And she has a dream about jesus, unlike any dream
00:28:42.644 --> 00:28:46.781
She'd ever had in her life.
00:28:46.781 --> 00:28:47.849
And jesus, she felt the love and the grace.
00:28:47.849 --> 00:28:50.018
She said, for the first time in my life, i'm with a man,
00:28:50.018 --> 00:28:52.554
I don't feel shame.
00:28:52.554 --> 00:28:53.521
I feel love and acceptance.
00:28:53.521 --> 00:28:55.790
And she's just bowled over and they're walking along a lake
00:28:55.790 --> 00:28:59.027
Shore in her vision.
00:28:59.027 --> 00:29:01.262
And she says, jesus, why do you appear to me?
00:29:01.262 --> 00:29:04.199
A poor muslim woman with eight children.
00:29:04.199 --> 00:29:06.768
And he looked at her and he said, my friend will explain
00:29:06.768 --> 00:29:10.438
To you tomorrow why i'm here.
00:29:10.438 --> 00:29:12.440
And she said, who's your friend?
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:14.409
And he gestures to somebody she didn't realize was walking with
00:29:14.409 --> 00:29:17.912
Them along the lakeshore because she was so mesmerized
00:29:17.912 --> 00:29:20.148
By jesus.
00:29:20.148 --> 00:29:21.449
Oh, there's a man walking with them and she sees this man.
00:29:21.449 --> 00:29:24.018
She wakes up.
00:29:24.385 --> 00:29:25.720
The next day she goes to the crowded marketplace in cairo,
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:28.890
And she sees the man from her dream.
00:29:28.890 --> 00:29:30.558
Oh my gosh.
00:29:30.558 --> 00:29:31.526
He was an underground church planter.
00:29:31.526 --> 00:29:33.828
Wow.
00:29:33.828 --> 00:29:35.063
Who wasn't gonna go to the marketplace that day because
00:29:35.063 --> 00:29:36.564
It's chaotic and crowded, but he felt god had
00:29:36.564 --> 00:29:40.034
An assignment for him.
00:29:40.034 --> 00:29:40.635
So he went that day.
00:29:40.635 --> 00:29:41.636
She comes up to us, you're the one.
00:29:41.636 --> 00:29:43.137
You're the one.
00:29:43.137 --> 00:29:44.172
He said, whoa, what are you talking about?
00:29:44.172 --> 00:29:45.139
Same glasses, same face, same clothes.
00:29:45.139 --> 00:29:47.408
He said, did you have a dream about jesus last night?
00:29:47.408 --> 00:29:50.378
Said, yes.
00:29:50.678 --> 00:29:51.713
So what does he do?
00:29:52.180 --> 00:29:53.481
He pulls her aside, opens the bible and shares the gospel.
00:29:53.481 --> 00:29:56.818
That's the corroboration that shows that this isn't just
00:29:56.818 --> 00:29:59.654
Coming from somebody's subconscious.
00:29:59.654 --> 00:30:01.289
There's an external corroboration to this,
00:30:01.289 --> 00:30:03.892
Pointing to someone else.
00:30:03.892 --> 00:30:04.792
And that's how these cases happen.
00:30:04.792 --> 00:30:06.661
They are so common that tom doyle said to me, lee, i could
00:30:06.661 --> 00:30:09.764
Pick up the phone right now and call syria or iraq
00:30:09.764 --> 00:30:14.035
And get you five more stories.
00:30:14.035 --> 00:30:15.270
It is so common.
00:30:15.270 --> 00:30:16.504
It's so common that often you'll see an advertisement in
00:30:16.504 --> 00:30:18.940
The cairo newspaper and it says, call us, and we'll tell
00:30:18.940 --> 00:30:22.911
You about the man in white you met in your dream last night.
00:30:22.911 --> 00:30:25.146
Oh, my gosh.
00:30:25.146 --> 00:30:26.481
Yeah, there's so many people who are having this experience.
00:30:26.481 --> 00:30:28.883
Can i tell you one other thing?
00:30:28.883 --> 00:30:30.018
Yeah. this happened at our--
00:30:30.018 --> 00:30:31.286
There's gonna be lots
00:30:31.286 --> 00:30:32.020
Of other things.
00:30:32.020 --> 00:30:33.121
This happened at our church in houston, texas.
00:30:33.121 --> 00:30:35.523
Wow. there was a woman, she was sixteen years old, living in
00:30:35.523 --> 00:30:38.760
A closed muslim country and reaching out to god.
00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:41.562
She was going through troubled times.
00:30:41.562 --> 00:30:42.764
God, i need you.
00:30:42.764 --> 00:30:43.564
I want you.
00:30:43.564 --> 00:30:44.666
And she had an incredible
00:30:44.666 --> 00:30:47.068
Vision of jesus, a dream of jesus.
00:30:47.068 --> 00:30:49.637
And she said, it wasn't-- i said, what did he say?
00:30:49.637 --> 00:30:53.308
She said, no, no, no, it wasn't what he said.
00:30:53.308 --> 00:30:55.076
It was who he was.
00:30:55.076 --> 00:30:56.277
It was like a motion picture projecting him.
00:30:56.277 --> 00:30:59.013
And i felt the love and the beauty and the grace.
00:30:59.013 --> 00:31:01.783
It was just overwhelming.
00:31:01.783 --> 00:31:04.152
Well, she ends up marrying a muslim gentleman and he was
00:31:04.152 --> 00:31:07.155
Part of the oil industry.
00:31:07.155 --> 00:31:08.289
So he gets transferred to houston, texas.
00:31:08.289 --> 00:31:10.692
She moves to houston, she has another dream.
00:31:10.692 --> 00:31:13.328
And in this dream, she's up to her waist in water.
00:31:13.328 --> 00:31:16.931
And there's a man, and the man
00:31:16.931 --> 00:31:18.399
Is holding a bible and he's weeping.
00:31:18.399 --> 00:31:22.036
She doesn't know what to make of this dream.
00:31:22.036 --> 00:31:24.706
But she met someone from our church.
00:31:24.706 --> 00:31:26.407
I was part of woodlands church,
00:31:26.407 --> 00:31:27.642
Kerry shook, there in houston, texas.
00:31:27.642 --> 00:31:29.911
And this woman from our church, invite, your husband's out
00:31:29.911 --> 00:31:32.647
Of town, why don't you come to our church at easter?
00:31:32.647 --> 00:31:34.682
So she came to our church.
00:31:34.682 --> 00:31:36.050
She's sitting in the auditorium waiting for the service to
00:31:36.050 --> 00:31:38.519
Begin, and she sees the man who had been with her in the pond.
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:42.557
His name is alan splawn, he's our baptism pastor.
00:31:42.557 --> 00:31:46.461
They lead her to faith in jesus christ.
00:31:47.261 --> 00:31:49.197
Wow. and then she goes into the pond on our property with alan,
00:31:49.197 --> 00:31:54.635
With the bible, weeping at this great story of this woman
00:31:54.635 --> 00:31:57.905
Coming to faith in christ and baptizing her in the name of
00:31:57.905 --> 00:32:00.675
The father, son, and holy spirit, just as her
00:32:00.675 --> 00:32:03.077
Dream foretold. wow.
00:32:03.077 --> 00:32:04.212
And i go, that's from our church in houston, texas.
00:32:04.212 --> 00:32:07.949
Look what god is doing.
00:32:07.949 --> 00:32:09.384
And you know, you can just see god saying, you think you're
00:32:09.384 --> 00:32:13.388
Gonna make it illegal to share my gospel?
00:32:13.388 --> 00:32:16.157
You know what?
00:32:16.157 --> 00:32:17.392
I'll show you a few things.
00:32:17.392 --> 00:32:18.760
I'm coming in.
00:32:18.760 --> 00:32:20.762
You know, that was in a different way totally,
00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:23.398
I discovered that in the psych hospital because i was told
00:32:23.398 --> 00:32:25.767
Nobody can come and see you for 72 hours, but the lamb
00:32:25.767 --> 00:32:28.770
Of god checked himself in with me that very night.
00:32:28.770 --> 00:32:30.805
Yeah. there's no place where the lord cannot reach us
00:32:30.805 --> 00:32:34.008
With his love and his grace.
00:32:34.008 --> 00:32:35.810
And that's what's so encouraging about the
00:32:35.810 --> 00:32:37.645
Supernatural realm.
00:32:37.645 --> 00:32:38.946
I know people get freaky about it because they're thinking
00:32:38.946 --> 00:32:41.416
About paranormal stuff that has no biblical basis.
00:32:41.416 --> 00:32:44.285
But when you really delve into what the bible teaches,
00:32:44.285 --> 00:32:46.687
It's incredibly encouraging.
00:32:46.687 --> 00:32:47.889
Yeah. and ought to tell us about god's love for us
00:32:47.889 --> 00:32:51.759
And his individual care for us.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:53.027
He knows you personally, and he loves you.
00:32:53.027 --> 00:32:55.663
Yeah. that's true for everybody who's watching today.
00:32:55.663 --> 00:32:58.066
Yeah.
00:32:58.066 --> 00:32:58.900
What would you say to people?
00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:00.134
One of the questions i was asked last night on facebook
00:33:00.134 --> 00:33:02.403
To you is, do we all have our own personal angel?
00:33:02.403 --> 00:33:04.939
Yeah, that's a great question.
00:33:04.939 --> 00:33:06.908
And there's a bit of a controversy in
00:33:06.908 --> 00:33:09.010
Christendom about that.
00:33:09.010 --> 00:33:10.311
The great bible translator jerome believed we did.
00:33:10.311 --> 00:33:12.647
Thomas aquinas believed we did.
00:33:12.647 --> 00:33:14.148
And it's based on two verses.
00:33:14.148 --> 00:33:15.783
One's in matthew chapter eighteen.
00:33:15.783 --> 00:33:18.186
And jesus said about these children.
00:33:18.186 --> 00:33:20.955
He said, do not despise these little ones, for their
00:33:20.955 --> 00:33:24.759
Angels see the face of god all the time in heaven.
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:27.361
Well, who are their angels?
00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:29.831
And then in acts, peter is
00:33:29.831 --> 00:33:33.067
Rescued from a prison by some angels.
00:33:33.067 --> 00:33:35.536
And he goes to a home where some christians had gathered,
00:33:35.536 --> 00:33:38.639
And he knocks on the door.
00:33:38.639 --> 00:33:40.041
And the servant says, who's there?
00:33:40.041 --> 00:33:41.509
And he says, it's peter.
00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:43.311
And she gets excited, and she says,
00:33:43.311 --> 00:33:45.012
Hey, everybody, peter's here.
00:33:45.012 --> 00:33:47.181
And they said, no, he's not.
00:33:47.181 --> 00:33:49.383
Peter's in he's in prison.
00:33:49.383 --> 00:33:51.018
He can't be here.
00:33:51.018 --> 00:33:52.153
That must be his angel.
00:33:52.153 --> 00:33:54.288
Wow. based on those two verses, christians believe that god
00:33:54.288 --> 00:34:00.027
Assigns an angel to each follower of his.
00:34:00.027 --> 00:34:04.098
And it could very well be.
00:34:04.665 --> 00:34:05.766
You know, there's no shortage of--
00:34:05.766 --> 00:34:07.034
But we don't really know.
00:34:07.034 --> 00:34:07.802
We don't really know.
00:34:07.802 --> 00:34:09.003
But it would be encouraging, consistent with god's you
00:34:09.003 --> 00:34:10.438
Know, it's interesting, in revelation, we see at one point
00:34:11.572 --> 00:34:14.675
Where the post resurrected jesus is on his throne.
00:34:14.675 --> 00:34:18.012
And when you do the math of that verse, it indicates there
00:34:18.012 --> 00:34:23.151
Were one hundred million angels worshiping him at that time.
00:34:23.151 --> 00:34:27.155
So there's plenty of angels.
00:34:27.155 --> 00:34:29.023
Yeah, we're not sure.
00:34:29.023 --> 00:34:29.924
There's no angel shortage.
00:34:29.924 --> 00:34:31.025
Right.
00:34:31.025 --> 00:34:32.360
What do you say to our viewers at home who are like, i wish
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:35.196
I knew god in a more
00:34:35.196 --> 00:34:37.765
Supernatural way?
00:34:37.765 --> 00:34:38.766
I wonder, did you find when you did your
00:34:38.766 --> 00:34:41.202
Research, it was divided kind of denominationally?
00:34:41.202 --> 00:34:44.939
Because i was, you know, i was raised in a baptist church and
00:34:44.939 --> 00:34:47.675
Very strict, very conservative where, you know, miracles and
00:34:47.675 --> 00:34:50.912
Things like that happened in the bible and we're done now.
00:34:50.912 --> 00:34:53.080
Yeah. when i was in seminary, went to a more charismatic
00:34:53.080 --> 00:34:55.516
Church where it's like, no, god is still-- did you find
00:34:55.516 --> 00:34:58.186
That that's impacting the research
00:34:58.186 --> 00:35:01.289
You did, how people were raised?
00:35:01.289 --> 00:35:03.291
Somewhat, yeah.
00:35:03.291 --> 00:35:04.592
I think, you know, there are what i call cessationists who
00:35:04.592 --> 00:35:07.161
Believe that in modern times that the gift of supernatural
00:35:07.161 --> 00:35:12.400
Healing, it no longer applies.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.035
But many cessationists believe that god still does miracles.
00:35:14.035 --> 00:35:16.404
Yeah. but yeah, i interviewed a baptist theologian at a
00:35:16.404 --> 00:35:22.944
Major university, and he grew up in a
00:35:22.944 --> 00:35:24.679
Pentecostal home, a charismatic home.
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:26.948
And he said, when i grew up,
00:35:26.948 --> 00:35:28.015
There was an expectation of the supernatural.
00:35:28.015 --> 00:35:30.585
And he said, i'll tell you a story.
00:35:31.385 --> 00:35:33.654
He said, in my church growing up, there was a family,
00:35:33.654 --> 00:35:36.657
And this was back before seat belts.
00:35:36.657 --> 00:35:38.759
They were driving in their car about seventy miles an hour,
00:35:38.759 --> 00:35:41.262
And their child opened the back door and fell out of the car
00:35:41.262 --> 00:35:46.033
At seventy miles an hour.
00:35:46.033 --> 00:35:47.134
They thought, my goodness, kyle's been killed.
00:35:47.134 --> 00:35:49.637
They stopped the car, they turned around, they go back,
00:35:49.637 --> 00:35:52.039
And here he is standing in the street.
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.141
And i said, what happened?
00:35:54.141 --> 00:35:55.943
And he said, oh, you didn't see the man that caught me?
00:35:55.943 --> 00:35:58.779
Wow. and this prominent theologian took out a
00:35:58.779 --> 00:36:03.951
Handkerchief and dabbed his eye, and he said, i miss that.
00:36:03.951 --> 00:36:07.455
Aw. i miss being in a home where there's an expectation
00:36:07.455 --> 00:36:12.660
Of the supernatural.
00:36:12.660 --> 00:36:13.995
Wow. and i think it's true that some people, even though the
00:36:13.995 --> 00:36:18.266
Bible teaches angels are real and demons are real and so
00:36:18.266 --> 00:36:21.769
Forth, don't wanna deal with that, and they kinda don't talk
00:36:21.769 --> 00:36:24.538
About it and so forth.
00:36:24.538 --> 00:36:25.539
And i think we're impoverished by that.
00:36:25.539 --> 00:36:28.276
I think we need to embrace what the bible teaches about
00:36:28.276 --> 00:36:31.145
The supernatural realm.
00:36:31.145 --> 00:36:32.680
So, i think there are some people who kinda rule it out
00:36:33.781 --> 00:36:37.285
Or are embarrassed by it.
00:36:37.285 --> 00:36:38.619
Yeah. you know, one theologian said to me, he said, you know,
00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:42.390
Some christians are embarrassed by the supernatural.
00:36:42.390 --> 00:36:45.393
And he said, the reason is they
00:36:45.393 --> 00:36:47.028
Wanna be accepted by everybody else.
00:36:47.028 --> 00:36:50.331
So my neighbor knows i'm a christian.
00:36:50.331 --> 00:36:52.166
Yeah, i'm a christian, but i am just like you.
00:36:52.166 --> 00:36:53.768
I'm not weird.
00:36:53.768 --> 00:36:54.268
I'm weird.
00:36:54.268 --> 00:36:55.069
I'm not into anything strange.
00:36:55.069 --> 00:36:55.936
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:55.936 --> 00:36:56.971
So, you know, forget all that weird stuff.
00:36:56.971 --> 00:36:58.806
So in looking for that kind of acceptance, sometimes people
00:36:58.806 --> 00:37:02.009
Shove aside the reality of the supernatural realm.
00:37:02.009 --> 00:37:05.079
But i think that impoverishes us.
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:06.580
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:06.580 --> 00:37:07.782
I wondered like, you do, like, a couple of years.
00:37:07.782 --> 00:37:10.151
You do research, everything.
00:37:10.151 --> 00:37:11.819
When you finished this book in particular, what were the
00:37:11.819 --> 00:37:14.955
Things that stayed with you most or that built your faith?
00:37:14.955 --> 00:37:18.426
You know, i ended up after i did this, i did a little
00:37:18.426 --> 00:37:21.529
Five- part devotional about angels.
00:37:21.529 --> 00:37:23.064
And i was impacted because of that experience i had as a kid
00:37:23.064 --> 00:37:26.767
That i had been embarrassed by because i didn't want people
00:37:26.767 --> 00:37:30.404
To think i was mentally ill or something.
00:37:30.404 --> 00:37:33.040
And the reality of the angelic
00:37:33.674 --> 00:37:35.643
World is very encouraging to me.
00:37:35.643 --> 00:37:38.179
And so i think one of the things i walk away with is
00:37:38.179 --> 00:37:41.015
Whether or not god has assigned to me a guardian angel who is
00:37:41.015 --> 00:37:44.185
My personal angel, regardless.
00:37:44.185 --> 00:37:46.053
He has created these angels,
00:37:46.654 --> 00:37:47.955
And the angels have a twofold purpose.
00:37:47.955 --> 00:37:50.691
One is to praise and honor god, but the other is to minister
00:37:50.691 --> 00:37:53.894
To his people.
00:37:53.894 --> 00:37:54.695
And i just--
00:37:55.029 --> 00:37:56.197
What do you understand that to mean?
00:37:56.197 --> 00:37:57.565
Yeah, i understand to mean that, well, i'll give you an example.
00:37:57.565 --> 00:38:01.435
We're not to pray to angels because they're not god.
00:38:01.435 --> 00:38:05.439
We see in john, in revelation, how he encounters an angel.
00:38:05.439 --> 00:38:08.909
He falls down to worship him.
00:38:08.909 --> 00:38:10.077
And the angel says, no, no, no, don't worship me.
00:38:10.077 --> 00:38:12.279
Only worship god.
00:38:12.279 --> 00:38:13.581
Because they're luminous and
00:38:13.581 --> 00:38:15.516
They're impressive and so forth.
00:38:15.516 --> 00:38:18.652
So we're not to pray to them,
00:38:19.286 --> 00:38:21.322
But we can pray to god about them.
00:38:21.322 --> 00:38:25.059
Martin luther in the small catechism has an evening prayer
00:38:25.059 --> 00:38:28.195
Where he prays, god, send your angels to protect me
00:38:28.195 --> 00:38:32.533
From the evil one.
00:38:32.533 --> 00:38:33.067
Wow.
00:38:33.067 --> 00:38:34.368
And jesus in the garden of gethsemane, he's being arrested
00:38:34.368 --> 00:38:37.805
And he says, could i not ask my father right now
00:38:37.805 --> 00:38:42.576
And he would send twelve legions of angels? that's what,
00:38:42.576 --> 00:38:46.280
Sixty thousand angels? to protect me right now if i
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.884
Were to pray to him.
00:38:49.884 --> 00:38:51.252
So to pray to god, and i never used to do this, but i do now.
00:38:51.252 --> 00:38:54.522
I like that.
00:38:54.522 --> 00:38:55.689
And i ask god, god, send your angels and protect me.
00:38:55.689 --> 00:38:58.392
Create a hedge around my family and my grandchildren
00:38:58.392 --> 00:39:01.195
And so forth, and protect us.
00:39:01.195 --> 00:39:04.031
And i think that's a totally legitimate prayer, but i never
00:39:04.031 --> 00:39:06.700
Used to pray it because i wasn't as attuned to the
00:39:06.700 --> 00:39:09.270
Supernatural realm as i feel like i am now.
00:39:09.270 --> 00:39:11.572
That's why i really want you to get ahold of this book because
00:39:11.572 --> 00:39:14.642
Lee's research is phenomenal and totally backed up by
00:39:14.642 --> 00:39:18.779
Scripture, but just so you
00:39:18.779 --> 00:39:20.014
Know, i did take your questions seriously.
00:39:20.014 --> 00:39:22.817
My phone, i'm going to i asked last night on facebook, and i'm
00:39:22.817 --> 00:39:26.020
Sheila walsh connects, if you had the privilege of
00:39:26.020 --> 00:39:28.789
Interviewing lee, what are some
00:39:28.789 --> 00:39:29.890
Of the things you would want to ask?
00:39:29.890 --> 00:39:31.425
And this person said, how do christians see into the unseen
00:39:31.425 --> 00:39:35.029
Realm, and what should we know about it before we try?
00:39:35.029 --> 00:39:38.032
What's the difference between the pure in heart who see god
00:39:38.032 --> 00:39:41.402
Versus those falling prey to forms of things that
00:39:41.402 --> 00:39:44.071
Turn out to be sorcery?
00:39:44.071 --> 00:39:45.439
Yeah. you know, there's a great account in ii kings 6 where
00:39:45.439 --> 00:39:49.910
The prophet elisha is being stalked by the syrian army.
00:39:49.910 --> 00:39:53.414
They're mad at him because he ambushed or he thwarted
00:39:53.414 --> 00:39:57.017
Their attempt to ambush the king of israel.
00:39:57.017 --> 00:39:58.886
So they're out to get him.
00:39:58.886 --> 00:40:00.654
And he had a servant, and this servant's freaking out because
00:40:00.654 --> 00:40:04.158
He realizes whatever they do to elisha, they're gonna do to me.
00:40:04.158 --> 00:40:06.660
So i'm either gonna get
00:40:06.660 --> 00:40:07.528
Enslaved or i'm gonna get killed.
00:40:07.528 --> 00:40:09.063
So he's freaking out.
00:40:09.063 --> 00:40:10.331
So he goes out early one day in the city of dothan where
00:40:10.331 --> 00:40:12.399
They were, and he looks and he sees
00:40:12.399 --> 00:40:15.135
In the distance these syrian troops.
00:40:15.135 --> 00:40:17.771
And he says, oh no, my lord, what do we do?
00:40:17.771 --> 00:40:20.074
What do we do?
00:40:20.074 --> 00:40:20.908
They're coming for us, you know?
00:40:20.908 --> 00:40:22.910
And elisha says to him, basically, i'm paraphrasing,
00:40:22.910 --> 00:40:26.647
But he said, don't freak out.
00:40:26.647 --> 00:40:28.749
He said, greater is he who is
00:40:29.383 --> 00:40:31.285
With us than he who is with them.
00:40:31.285 --> 00:40:33.053
Wow. and then i think that the
00:40:33.053 --> 00:40:35.523
Servant was still a little anxious.
00:40:35.523 --> 00:40:37.157
And so elisha prayed and he said, god, open his eyes
00:40:37.157 --> 00:40:41.161
So that he may see.
00:40:41.161 --> 00:40:42.062
Oh, wow.
00:40:42.062 --> 00:40:43.397
And god opens the eyes of the servant of elisha and he looks
00:40:43.397 --> 00:40:46.133
Out and he sees an army of angels in chariots of fire
00:40:46.133 --> 00:40:52.406
Protecting them.
00:40:52.406 --> 00:40:53.574
And that of course gave him courage and certainly
00:40:53.574 --> 00:40:56.010
God rescued them and they came out fine.
00:40:56.010 --> 00:40:58.078
But my point about that is when
00:40:58.078 --> 00:41:00.314
We do get a glimpse of the supernatural,
00:41:00.314 --> 00:41:04.018
It can give us courage.
00:41:04.518 --> 00:41:05.786
It can give us peace.
00:41:05.786 --> 00:41:07.388
It can give us a sense of acknowledgement that god is
00:41:07.388 --> 00:41:12.326
There for us, he loves us, and wants to protect us.
00:41:12.326 --> 00:41:15.896
Having said that, i think there's a danger when we
00:41:16.931 --> 00:41:20.301
Seek it too much.
00:41:20.301 --> 00:41:21.435
In other words, why do i believe, sheila, there's a
00:41:21.435 --> 00:41:24.271
Supernatural realm?
00:41:24.271 --> 00:41:25.573
Because the bible teaches it.
00:41:25.573 --> 00:41:27.775
And if you wanna see the
00:41:27.775 --> 00:41:29.276
Supernatural realm, read scripture.
00:41:29.276 --> 00:41:31.312
That's great.
00:41:31.312 --> 00:41:32.212
That's a great then you'll see it.
00:41:32.212 --> 00:41:33.681
Yeah. but i think sometimes we want more and we want to get
00:41:33.681 --> 00:41:37.518
We want to see the face of god.
00:41:37.518 --> 00:41:39.286
We want to see angels.
00:41:39.286 --> 00:41:41.288
We want to-- and you know what?
00:41:41.288 --> 00:41:43.290
Someday we will.
00:41:43.290 --> 00:41:44.692
But most of the time, it's not time yet.
00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:47.328
And if it is,
00:41:47.328 --> 00:41:48.829
God will facilitate it.
00:41:49.330 --> 00:41:50.698
But i think it's a little bit dangerous to think that somehow
00:41:50.698 --> 00:41:54.268
We're missing out if we don't have some supernatural
00:41:54.268 --> 00:41:57.905
Glimpse into the world beyond.
00:41:57.905 --> 00:41:58.806
The bible's enough.
00:41:58.806 --> 00:42:01.175
Yeah, i firmly believe in the supernatural as described
00:42:01.175 --> 00:42:03.911
In the bible.
00:42:03.911 --> 00:42:05.112
How can i remain open to hearing from the lord this way
00:42:05.112 --> 00:42:07.147
Without it feeling like i'm messing with a ouija board?
00:42:07.147 --> 00:42:09.783
Yes, boy.
00:42:09.783 --> 00:42:12.052
How do you know you're hearing the voice of god?
00:42:12.052 --> 00:42:14.188
Number one, it will never contradict scripture.
00:42:15.189 --> 00:42:17.891
Yeah. and so that's why it's so important to understand
00:42:17.891 --> 00:42:20.661
Scripture, to be well based in our understanding of the
00:42:20.661 --> 00:42:24.164
Bible and so forth.
00:42:24.164 --> 00:42:25.466
Because whatever we encounter from the supernatural realm
00:42:25.466 --> 00:42:28.636
That is contrary to scripture,
00:42:28.636 --> 00:42:32.473
We gotta rule out.
00:42:32.906 --> 00:42:34.041
And i have a chapter here where i deal with ghosts.
00:42:34.041 --> 00:42:36.410
Yeah, that was so fascinating to me.
00:42:36.410 --> 00:42:38.278
Yeah,
00:42:38.278 --> 00:42:39.546
And that's an example where we gotta be really careful.
00:42:39.546 --> 00:42:41.148
The reason is the technical definition of a ghost is
00:42:41.148 --> 00:42:44.885
Someone who physically dies, but their spirit refuses
00:42:44.885 --> 00:42:48.389
To go into the afterlife.
00:42:48.389 --> 00:42:49.390
There's nothing like that in the bible.
00:42:49.390 --> 00:42:50.924
No. you know, the bible does reference ghosts, but only as a
00:42:50.924 --> 00:42:53.527
Cultural phenomenon or belief.
00:42:53.527 --> 00:42:55.195
It doesn't teach about ghosts.
00:42:55.195 --> 00:42:56.964
And so
00:42:57.197 --> 00:42:58.332
Could these ghostly appearances that some people have witnessed
00:42:59.533 --> 00:43:03.404
Actually be demonic?
00:43:03.404 --> 00:43:04.772
Yeah, i think that's more likely because i don't see
00:43:04.772 --> 00:43:08.776
A biblical teaching about ghosts.
00:43:08.776 --> 00:43:11.645
I see biblical teaching about near death experiences.
00:43:11.645 --> 00:43:14.148
I see it about deathbed visions and so forth.
00:43:14.148 --> 00:43:16.316
I don't see it in the same way about ghosts.
00:43:16.316 --> 00:43:19.386
And so i have a chapter where i try to help people discern
00:43:19.386 --> 00:43:22.690
What could be of god but what is not of god.
00:43:22.690 --> 00:43:25.559
Yeah. and the bottom line is, of course, what's
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:28.262
Consistent with the bible.
00:43:28.262 --> 00:43:29.630
Absolutely. i think that's one of the things i appreciate most
00:43:29.630 --> 00:43:32.066
About you, lee, because you do have this incredible ability to
00:43:32.066 --> 00:43:36.904
Do phenomenal research, talk to people who would never take any
00:43:36.904 --> 00:43:40.207
Of our calls, but then absolutely undergird it
00:43:40.207 --> 00:43:44.511
With the word of god.
00:43:44.511 --> 00:43:45.646
So let me ask you, what would your prayer be when
00:43:45.646 --> 00:43:48.182
Somebody has finished it?
00:43:48.182 --> 00:43:49.249
And the book is called seeing the supernatural,
00:43:49.249 --> 00:43:51.652
New york times bestseller list hit it today.
00:43:51.652 --> 00:43:53.787
What would your prayer be when people finish reading this?
00:43:53.787 --> 00:43:56.790
My prayer would be that they would reach out to the god
00:43:56.790 --> 00:43:59.760
Of the supernatural.
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:01.095
I have a prayer at the end of the book that if people say, i
00:44:01.095 --> 00:44:06.033
Need to know this god, i know about him, but i don't feel
00:44:06.033 --> 00:44:09.903
I know him.
00:44:09.903 --> 00:44:11.138
I don't feel i have a personal relationship with him.
00:44:11.138 --> 00:44:14.808
My hope and prayer as an evangelist who wants to see
00:44:14.808 --> 00:44:17.311
Lives change like god changed my life from atheism to faith,
00:44:17.311 --> 00:44:21.248
I hope that when people, before they put down the book, will
00:44:22.416 --> 00:44:25.452
Reach out to god and say, god, you are so beyond what i
00:44:25.452 --> 00:44:29.189
Totally understand, but i don't
00:44:29.189 --> 00:44:30.657
Have to know everything to know something.
00:44:30.657 --> 00:44:32.760
And i know that you are real and i know you love me.
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:35.262
I know you sent your son to die for me.
00:44:35.262 --> 00:44:37.030
I know that salvation is a free gift of your grace.
00:44:37.030 --> 00:44:40.033
And i want to receive that gift right now.
00:44:40.033 --> 00:44:41.802
So that's my prayer for people. i you know,
00:44:41.802 --> 00:44:47.708
Lived a very immoral life,
00:44:48.275 --> 00:44:52.613
Narcissistic, self destructive
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:59.319
Life as an atheist.
00:44:59.787 --> 00:45:01.655
And people thought i was so successful at the chicago
00:45:01.655 --> 00:45:05.159
Tribune and so forth, books and doing tv,
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:08.228
And they never saw me drunk in the alley on saturday night.
00:45:09.396 --> 00:45:12.299
And god rescued me from that, you know, thanks to my wife
00:45:12.299 --> 00:45:16.804
Who became a christian and prayed for me.
00:45:16.804 --> 00:45:19.273
And i spent two years investigating the supernatural
00:45:19.273 --> 00:45:22.776
Resurrection of jesus, which i cover in the book,
00:45:22.776 --> 00:45:26.647
And became convinced that jesus didn't just claim to be the son
00:45:26.647 --> 00:45:29.817
Of god, he backed it up by returning from the dead.
00:45:29.817 --> 00:45:32.152
You want a supernatural, well established, well-proven event.
00:45:32.152 --> 00:45:35.189
That's it.
00:45:35.189 --> 00:45:36.523
And on november the eighth of '81, just saying,
00:45:36.523 --> 00:45:39.326
God, you win.
00:45:39.326 --> 00:45:39.893
It's true.
00:45:39.893 --> 00:45:40.661
Repenting of my sin,
00:45:40.661 --> 00:45:43.163
Receiving this free gift of forgiveness.
00:45:43.163 --> 00:45:44.832
And then, you know, ii corinthians 5:17 talks about,
00:45:44.832 --> 00:45:48.268
You know, when you do that, the old is gone
00:45:48.268 --> 00:45:51.772
And the new has come.
00:45:51.772 --> 00:45:52.973
Wow. and to see my life since then and to say only god
00:45:52.973 --> 00:45:58.779
Could have done in my life what he has done.
00:45:58.779 --> 00:46:00.914
My daughter at the time,
00:46:01.415 --> 00:46:04.017
I came to faith she was five years old.
00:46:04.885 --> 00:46:06.687
And all she had known, first five years of her life was a
00:46:06.687 --> 00:46:10.157
Dad who was absent, angry, kicking holes in walls out of
00:46:10.157 --> 00:46:13.827
His rage and anger, literally
00:46:13.827 --> 00:46:15.195
Kicked holes in the living room wall.
00:46:15.195 --> 00:46:16.763
I can't imagine you like that.
00:46:16.763 --> 00:46:18.065
And drunk, coming home drunk.
00:46:18.065 --> 00:46:20.400
That's all she knew.
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:22.069
But starting on that day that i
00:46:22.069 --> 00:46:23.904
Received christ, she started to watch.
00:46:23.904 --> 00:46:26.306
Something's changed with my dad.
00:46:26.306 --> 00:46:28.008
Something's new with my dad.
00:46:28.008 --> 00:46:29.409
Something's different with my dad.
00:46:29.409 --> 00:46:31.011
Never studied archeology, interviewed a scholar.
00:46:31.011 --> 00:46:33.680
She's just five years old, but she watched, she could
00:46:33.680 --> 00:46:35.949
Listen, she observed.
00:46:35.949 --> 00:46:37.451
It took about four or five months.
00:46:37.451 --> 00:46:39.286
And then one sunday morning, she came up to lesley
00:46:39.286 --> 00:46:41.788
And she said, mommy,
00:46:41.788 --> 00:46:42.890
I want god to do for me what he's done for daddy.
00:46:43.891 --> 00:46:47.394
And at age five, she received this free gift of god's grace.
00:46:47.394 --> 00:46:50.397
She became a child of god.
00:46:50.397 --> 00:46:52.266
Now she's married to a
00:46:52.266 --> 00:46:54.034
Seminary graduate and is a strong christian.
00:46:54.034 --> 00:46:56.403
My son became a professor of theology at a seminary.
00:46:56.403 --> 00:46:59.406
Wow. god changed our family.
00:46:59.406 --> 00:47:01.041
He rescued our family.
00:47:01.041 --> 00:47:02.276
And i look at this world that we're in and chuck colson
00:47:02.276 --> 00:47:05.279
Back in the 1990's said, where is the hope?
00:47:05.279 --> 00:47:07.714
Where is the hope?
00:47:08.148 --> 00:47:09.449
We live in a world that is just corroded by corruption and
00:47:09.449 --> 00:47:12.286
Sin and where's the hope?
00:47:12.286 --> 00:47:13.520
And you know where the hope is?
00:47:13.520 --> 00:47:14.655
It's in the gospel of jesus christ.
00:47:14.655 --> 00:47:15.956
It's in him changing one life at a time.
00:47:15.956 --> 00:47:19.059
And he's still in the life changing business.
00:47:19.059 --> 00:47:21.161
Yes, he is.
00:47:21.161 --> 00:47:22.362
And my life's goal is to drag as many people to heaven
00:47:22.362 --> 00:47:26.767
With me as i can.
00:47:26.767 --> 00:47:28.068
You know, i'm gonna ask you, lee, would you just take a few
00:47:28.068 --> 00:47:30.637
Minutes because i think of people who were flipping
00:47:30.637 --> 00:47:32.940
Through channels and landed on this program and somehow they
00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:37.010
Feel that tug inside that, is there more?
00:47:37.010 --> 00:47:41.014
Yeah. would you just talk to them and let them know how you
00:47:41.014 --> 00:47:44.284
Meet this supernatural god?
00:47:44.284 --> 00:47:46.286
Absolutely. you know, if you don't know jesus personally, if
00:47:46.286 --> 00:47:49.523
You don't have a relationship with him, if you never received
00:47:49.523 --> 00:47:52.426
His free gift of forgiveness and eternal life, it's not
00:47:52.426 --> 00:47:55.762
Enough just to have knowledge.
00:47:55.762 --> 00:47:57.531
You know, the bible says even the demons understand who
00:47:57.531 --> 00:48:00.434
Jesus is, and they shudder as a result.
00:48:00.434 --> 00:48:03.403
So it's not enough just to know about it.
00:48:03.403 --> 00:48:05.305
John 1:12 says, but as many as received him, to them
00:48:05.305 --> 00:48:08.642
He gave the right to become children of god, even to those
00:48:08.642 --> 00:48:11.411
Who believe in his name.
00:48:11.411 --> 00:48:12.946
And so have you done that?
00:48:12.946 --> 00:48:14.414
Have you received that?
00:48:14.414 --> 00:48:16.016
You know, the bible's a complicated book.
00:48:16.016 --> 00:48:17.884
Granted, it's eight hundred thousand words.
00:48:17.884 --> 00:48:19.820
But i can summarize a central
00:48:19.820 --> 00:48:21.388
Message in just twenty one words.
00:48:21.388 --> 00:48:23.557
One verse, romans 6:23.
00:48:23.557 --> 00:48:26.026
It says, for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of
00:48:26.026 --> 00:48:30.697
God is eternal life through christ jesus our lord.
00:48:30.697 --> 00:48:33.900
So the wages of sin, what we've earned, what we deserve because
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:36.703
Of the way we've ignored god and turned our back on him and
00:48:36.703 --> 00:48:39.139
Walked the other way, is to
00:48:39.139 --> 00:48:40.674
Spend eternity separated from god.
00:48:40.674 --> 00:48:42.909
None of us wants that.
00:48:42.909 --> 00:48:43.910
That's what hell is.
00:48:43.910 --> 00:48:45.278
But the verse says, there's hope through jesus christ
00:48:45.278 --> 00:48:50.684
Who went to the cross.
00:48:50.684 --> 00:48:51.651
He paid the penalty you deserve
00:48:51.651 --> 00:48:53.387
For the sins that you've committed.
00:48:53.387 --> 00:48:54.955
And he offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift
00:48:54.955 --> 00:48:58.325
Of his grace.
00:48:58.325 --> 00:48:59.526
So if you wanna receive that gift right now, just pray
00:48:59.526 --> 00:49:02.662
Along these lines.
00:49:02.662 --> 00:49:03.497
You don't have to close your eyes.
00:49:03.497 --> 00:49:04.564
Just let's just look at each other.
00:49:04.564 --> 00:49:07.134
And just say this prayer.
00:49:07.134 --> 00:49:08.702
Say, lord jesus, as best i can, i do believe that you are
00:49:08.702 --> 00:49:14.775
The son of god?
00:49:14.775 --> 00:49:15.609
You proved it by returning from the dead.
00:49:16.410 --> 00:49:19.746
And right now, i confess the obvious.
00:49:20.514 --> 00:49:23.417
I'm a sinner.
00:49:23.784 --> 00:49:25.452
I know that.
00:49:25.786 --> 00:49:27.187
And i wanna turn from that.
00:49:27.788 --> 00:49:30.157
And in an attitude of
00:49:30.657 --> 00:49:31.892
Repentance and faith, i wanna receive.
00:49:31.892 --> 00:49:34.261
I wanna receive this free gift of forgiveness and eternal life
00:49:35.429 --> 00:49:39.533
That you purchased for me on the cross when you died
00:49:39.533 --> 00:49:42.269
As my substitute to pay for all of my sin.
00:49:42.269 --> 00:49:44.404
Thank you jesus for enduring the torture of the cross
00:49:45.439 --> 00:49:49.009
So that we could be reconciled forever.
00:49:49.009 --> 00:49:51.645
Help me jesus to live the kind of life that you want me to
00:49:52.813 --> 00:49:56.783
Live because from this moment on,
00:49:56.783 --> 00:50:00.187
I am yours.
00:50:00.520 --> 00:50:02.222
Now if you prayed a prayer like that in sincerity, then
00:50:03.323 --> 00:50:06.893
Something supernatural has happened to you.
00:50:06.893 --> 00:50:10.397
The holy spirit is taking up residence inside of you.
00:50:10.397 --> 00:50:13.567
God has adopted you as his son or his daughter forever.
00:50:13.567 --> 00:50:18.772
And so here's your opportunity to be baptized, be part of a
00:50:18.772 --> 00:50:21.408
Vibrant church, to learn how to worship, to learn how to read
00:50:21.408 --> 00:50:23.643
The bible with fresh eyes, to learn how to pray, to see god
00:50:23.643 --> 00:50:26.913
Change your life over time for the good.
00:50:26.913 --> 00:50:30.784
You know what i love about this, lee, and i love about the
00:50:30.784 --> 00:50:32.185
Way you pour yourself into your work is that so many people out
00:50:32.185 --> 00:50:34.354
There are exhausted and discouraged and they look
00:50:34.354 --> 00:50:36.990
At all the anger on social media
00:50:36.990 --> 00:50:38.358
And everybody's yelling at each other.
00:50:38.358 --> 00:50:40.193
The hope that we have in christ.
00:50:40.193 --> 00:50:43.330
The hope of an eternity where this isn't it.
00:50:43.330 --> 00:50:45.932
You know, it's like the tuning up of the orchestra.
00:50:45.932 --> 00:50:47.934
That's right.
00:50:47.934 --> 00:50:48.602
Like that.
00:50:48.602 --> 00:50:49.503
And then the drapes open and, wow!
00:50:49.503 --> 00:50:51.238
So i think that one of the things i'm so grateful for is,
00:50:51.238 --> 00:50:55.108
As somebody who was firm in your disbelief, to be so firm
00:50:55.108 --> 00:51:00.580
In your belief and so giving to others in terms of so we just
00:51:00.580 --> 00:51:05.118
I wanna pray for you, lee.
00:51:05.118 --> 00:51:06.186
Well, thank you.
00:51:06.186 --> 00:51:07.587
Father god, i wanna thank you for this man, this son of yours
00:51:07.587 --> 00:51:11.491
That you talked to when he was just a little boy.
00:51:11.491 --> 00:51:15.061
Mhmm.
00:51:15.061 --> 00:51:16.363
And then all these years later understood what the message
00:51:16.363 --> 00:51:18.965
Was all about.
00:51:18.965 --> 00:51:20.167
And, lord, i pray for your and i all my tbn family
00:51:20.167 --> 00:51:23.303
Join me right now.
00:51:23.303 --> 00:51:24.037
We pray for your protection
00:51:24.037 --> 00:51:24.971
Over lee and leslie and their family.
00:51:24.971 --> 00:51:27.741
Lord, will you open doors that only you could open?
00:51:27.741 --> 00:51:31.077
Take them to places where only you could take them.
00:51:31.077 --> 00:51:34.114
I pray for this book that, lord, you will use it to help
00:51:34.114 --> 00:51:37.450
People understand that you are a god who loves us, a god who
00:51:37.450 --> 00:51:41.321
Sees us, a god who came to show
00:51:41.321 --> 00:51:43.924
Us what it looks like to be loved.
00:51:43.924 --> 00:51:45.992
So i thank you for this, and i thank you for this privilege of
00:51:45.992 --> 00:51:48.828
Being part of your body, of your family, in jesus' name.
00:51:48.828 --> 00:51:52.566
We're very grateful for you, lee.
00:51:52.566 --> 00:51:54.067
You're so kind.
00:51:54.067 --> 00:51:54.801
Oh gosh.
00:51:54.801 --> 00:51:55.569
No. anytime i know i'm gonna
00:51:55.569 --> 00:51:56.937
Interview you, i get so excited.
00:51:56.937 --> 00:51:58.939
I love coming and chatting with you.
00:51:58.939 --> 00:52:00.740
I feel like we should now move to a living room somewhere
00:52:00.740 --> 00:52:03.343
And hang out, drink some coffee, and chat some more.
00:52:03.343 --> 00:52:06.580
Absolutely. but for those of you watching at home, as we do
00:52:06.580 --> 00:52:09.716
Get closer to easter, i just pray that in the busyness of
00:52:09.716 --> 00:52:12.619
Life, because life's nuts, i know that.
00:52:12.619 --> 00:52:14.354
You know, we're all so busy.
00:52:14.354 --> 00:52:15.689
We all get attached to our phones and things.
00:52:15.689 --> 00:52:18.425
I pray that you'll find some space, you know, some space to
00:52:18.425 --> 00:52:22.329
Allow the message of this god who came to pursue us and that
00:52:22.329 --> 00:52:27.234
The hope we have you know, a lot of things in our culture
00:52:27.234 --> 00:52:30.570
Talk about, you know, this cream will knock 23
00:52:30.570 --> 00:52:33.573
Off you and if you take this pill, you'll be five pounds
00:52:33.573 --> 00:52:35.809
Lighter by tuesday.
00:52:35.809 --> 00:52:37.110
No. this hope that we have in jesus, this hope, paul said,
00:52:37.110 --> 00:52:42.549
Will not disappoint and that's our prayer for you
00:52:42.549 --> 00:52:47.053
From our family here.
00:52:47.053 --> 00:52:48.188
For 50 years, that's been the message of tbn, that
00:52:48.188 --> 00:52:50.724
There's a god in heaven who loves us and that when you
00:52:50.724 --> 00:52:53.560
Choose to follow him, if you prayed with lee, let us know.
00:52:53.560 --> 00:52:56.696
We would just love to celebrate with you.
00:52:56.696 --> 00:52:58.465
And i also wanted to let you know that the tbn app, tbn
00:52:58.465 --> 00:53:02.302
Plus, is free app available on your phone, on your ipad, on
00:53:02.302 --> 00:53:06.106
Your home computer, where if you watch this show and you
00:53:06.106 --> 00:53:08.675
Think, oh gosh, i wish my kids had seen this, you can
00:53:08.675 --> 00:53:11.311
Go back and you can watch it with them.
00:53:11.311 --> 00:53:13.246
So, lee, thank you.
00:53:13.246 --> 00:53:14.414
May god bless you on your trips and your book too.
00:53:14.414 --> 00:53:16.449
God bless you and your family as well.
00:53:16.449 --> 00:53:19.185
And from matt and laurie and all of us here at tbn,
00:53:19.185 --> 00:53:22.455
We love you, and we will see you next time.
00:53:22.455 --> 00:53:23.990
♪♪
00:53:23.990 --> 00:53:23.990

Lee Strobel: Biblical Truths About the Supernatural | Praise

May 8, 2025 | 53:40

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