Praise

Mark Lanier: Big Tech on Trial | Praise

March 29, 2026 | 49:44

A courtroom battle has put the power of social media under the spotlight, as a landmark case results in a jury finding Google and Meta negligent, marking a pivotal moment in the growing debate over Big Tech’s influence. In the aftermath of this unprecedented decision, trial attorney Mark Lanier joins Matt and Laurie to unpack the case, examine the arguments, and explore what this ruling could mean for families, platforms, and the next generation.

#SocialMedia #Law #Crime #Justice #Culture #Communication #News #Government #Politics #Technology #MattCrouch #LaurieCrouch

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Praise | Mark Lanier: Big Tech on Trial | Praise | March 29, 2026

A growing crisis
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Is unfolding and it's happening on our children's screens.
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Online platforms are increasingly
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Being used for exploitation, recruitment
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And harmful interactions.
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Our children are not safe online.
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And i know that because the statistics tell the story of 104
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Million reported sexually abusive images.
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This is a document that was leaked by a metal whistleblower.
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That is their policies when it comes to chat bots
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With children.
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And if you look here, the first line, it says it is acceptable.
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This is meet his own words.
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It is acceptable to engage
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A child in conversations that are romantic or sensual.
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The business model of these companies is addiction.
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Company researchers found that instagram is harmful
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For a sizable percentage of teenagers, most notably
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Teenage girls.
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Here's another 14 playing instagram's your study
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For increases in the rate of anxiety and depression.
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That has got to change.
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It is time to give parents the right to sue
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These platforms.
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No company in america
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Has the liability shield that these companies have.
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They can do whatever they want to our kids,
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And we can't do anything about it.
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And i say that as the father of three young children.
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I'm terrified of what my kids might find on social media
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For the reasons that you've given today.
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But as a parent, i can't do a thing about it.
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If these companies decide to exploit my children
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And it is time for that to change
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And we know how
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To change it, the way to change it is to give the parents
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In this country the right to get into court.
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Open the courthouse doors and allow them to sue
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These companies. it's time.
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Social media is not bad, but
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It is in the news because of a recent trial.
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Mark, you are david.
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And, some of these companies are the goliath.
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Help our audience understand what you've just been through
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And what it means for all of us.
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I liken it to a war.
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Realize that we were trying this case
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Against two of the largest companies
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In the history of human civilization.
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These are companies
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That have values in the trillions of dollars.
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These are companies that have more information about you, me,
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Our viewers than anyone's ever assembled before.
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Google gives away free email accounts.
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Gmail.
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Why they can mine your data.
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They can mine all of that information that is sent to you
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That you send from.
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They're able to shape algorithms that will attract your mind,
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Attract your attention in ways that will captivate you.
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Now, that's just talking about us as adults.
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They also turned their engines and their ingenuity
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On how to do this to children.
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And they figured out a way.
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As google said in a secret document we found in 2012,
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Our goal is not viewership.
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Quote, it's addiction.
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Close quote. and that's what we did.
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We tried an addiction case.
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Now senator hawley is just a champion for this,
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As are a number of other politicians
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That are standing up.
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Senator blackburn,
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And others who are standing up trying to fight it.
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But the nice thing about it is we found a little wrinkle where
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We can't sue for the content because it's protected.
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They can publish porn, sexploitation,
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Anything like that. they want to.
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But what we can sue for under california law
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At least is addictive features.
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Because what they did is
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They engineered these programs and platforms to be addictive.
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So that people keep staying on them.
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Mark, you are a modern day warrior
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For the causes of freedom and goodness.
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You're a bible believing, beautiful christian and lawyer.
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You you you are in this fight.
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Let me just see if i've got some of my notes. right.
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You're not suing over content, okay?
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That's not, you know, not allowed to.
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Not allowed to. okay.
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But you are suing over the design of the system.
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That's right.
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So what you're saying in this case, in this landmark
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Event that happened days ago, is
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You might want
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To pay attention to that device that you have,
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Your ten year old, 12 year old, eight year old.
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Now, look at some point.
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These are modern day.
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Really important things.
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Yeah.
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You know, i like being able to call
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My wife if we're separated in a mall.
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Okay, so it's not like i'm ever going to largely
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Probably give this up, but what what they have
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Designed are systems we call them an algorithm
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That are specifically designed from a psychological level
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To addict you to your phone, your this or that
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For the purposes of mining.
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And that is just
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Inherently wrong for children. yeah,
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It's crazy the way they've gone about it too.
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This is not oh gee, look what we stumbled into.
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They brought in neuroscientists to talk about how the preteen
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And the teen brain is developing,
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And how can they engage that developing brain
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To get it to increase viewership.
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Youtube had a goal in 20 1314.
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They called it their big hairy audacious goal,
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And it was to increase the time spent on youtube
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By a factor of almost 300% by the end of 2016.
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Now, how are they going to do that?
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One of the ways they decided to do
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It was by targeting children as an audience.
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And so they set up not just not
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Just the idea of the algorithm.
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The algorithm itself is atrocious.
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And, by grace for a moment and tell you, the algorithm.
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Algorithm works like this.
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Imagine you go into a bookstore,
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Barnes, and noble, or whatever the bookstore is,
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And you say, hey, i'm interested in that book that,
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The crouches talked about on tbn the other day.
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And so you look at this big table when you go in
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And you see the book as soon as you see that book.
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Can you imagine if every other book
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On that table immediately transformed into a book
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That the crouches talked about on tbn?
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And then every book in the bookstore
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And then what they would do is they will give you
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One little teaser book.
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That's something that might trigger an interest in you.
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And you'll pick that up.
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And then all of a sudden every book changes, covers again.
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And that whole book change.
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And you are up against an algorithm
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That is designed to captivate you.
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Designed by the brightest minds
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In computer history to capture your attention.
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That's the algorithm that drives people.
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And it's done with the same, a science that drives a casino
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That drives they call it slot machine science.
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And in fact their internal documents talk about this.
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It's the intermittent reward system.
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Slot machines are designed to where they don't
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Give the big jackpot payout all at once.
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That happens rarely,
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But they'll give you enough
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Quarters or whatever it is you're shoveling in periodically
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To make
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You want to sit there and keep feeding it,
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Because you got an intermittent reward that gives a dopamine
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Rush to the brain.
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Well, they've set the algorithm up to do the same thing,
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And they want that dopamine hit
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To begin to develop into an addiction cycle.
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And it is absolutely sad.
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And that's just one aspect.
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They've got all these other features as well.
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This infinite scrolling, this, auto play.
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They've got all of these features designed
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To increase your time spent on their platform.
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Look, as as we get to our age,
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You and i and
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Lori and most of our viewers should know better.
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Yeah. hey, look. put your phone down.
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You know, we can talk to normal people and just say,
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You know, don't be an idiot, but you can't talk that way
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To a six year old.
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You can't talk that way to an eight year old.
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You know, look, you can try to,
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Parent the situation,
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But you didn't probably know until this case was brought.
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And by the way, just in case
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Where you think that we're talking to somebody
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That doesn't really know much about this.
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Mark, you just give give the background of how
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This case was brought to you, how you decided to take it on.
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You were chief counsel.
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You were plaintiff's counsel.
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And you
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Went walked into the lion's den and came out with a victory.
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Just recently.
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And as we get deeper into the program,
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I want to talk about what this really means in the long term.
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But how did you find the case?
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What was your thoughts behind
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How long you've been working on this?
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As, chief litigation counsel?
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There are a host of really smart, caring lawyers
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That have been engaged in this litigation for years,
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Trying to find a way to bring it to fruition.
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And they had this case set for trial.
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One of the co-leads of this consortium
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Appointed by the court is, one of our lawyers,
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My daughter rachel.
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So rachel called me up one day and said, dad, we're having a a
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Big fight about the first trial that's coming up.
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And i said, what's the fight?
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And she said, well,
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One set of lawyers wants to try it,
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And another set wants to try it,
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And they're in kind of a political fight over it,
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And they both want me to side with them.
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What do i do?
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And i said, i don't like to pick between my friends.
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She said, i don't either.
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They're both my friends.
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I said, well, honey,
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Let's pray about it and you'll figure out what to do.
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And so i hung up and
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Trusted god would provide her with the answer.
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How long ago?
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This is october.
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Okay. and, so what?
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Five months ago. okay.
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And she calls me about a week later.
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Dad, god answered my prayers.
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We've got it all figured out.
00:10:40.329 --> 00:10:41.363
Everyone is 100% behind it.
00:10:41.363 --> 00:10:43.699
I said, that's great, honey.
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Who won?
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She said, you did it. i said, what's your name?
00:10:46.135 --> 00:10:48.037
She said, dad, i told them you'd try it.
00:10:48.037 --> 00:10:50.339
And they said, well, if he'll try it, they're fine.
00:10:50.339 --> 00:10:52.374
We're all okay with that. yeah.
00:10:52.374 --> 00:10:54.009
And and i said, rachel, i don't i don't want to try it.
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She said, dad, i've prayed about it
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And i think you're supposed to.
00:10:58.614 --> 00:11:00.049
And you need to not just say that you need to pray about it.
00:11:00.049 --> 00:11:02.585
So through prayer and my daughter rachel,
00:11:02.585 --> 00:11:05.054
And the support of a lot of people,
00:11:05.054 --> 00:11:07.423
They came to me and said, would you try the case?
00:11:07.423 --> 00:11:09.425
Now you were used to that.
00:11:09.425 --> 00:11:12.261
Let's give a couple of examples of large cases
00:11:12.261 --> 00:11:16.565
That were fought in the past that you.
00:11:16.565 --> 00:11:19.235
This isn't your first rodeo.
00:11:19.235 --> 00:11:20.936
No. let's say i tried the first opioid, case
00:11:20.936 --> 00:11:25.174
Against the pharmacies that dispense them in ohio.
00:11:25.174 --> 00:11:28.644
And we want a good verdict.
00:11:28.644 --> 00:11:30.446
A few years ago,
00:11:30.446 --> 00:11:31.914
Before that, i tried the baby powder case in missouri.
00:11:31.914 --> 00:11:35.718
That got johnson and johnson to remove the asbestos tainted
00:11:35.718 --> 00:11:39.455
Talcum powder from their baby powder products worldwide.
00:11:39.455 --> 00:11:42.558
Before that, i tried the artificial
00:11:42.558 --> 00:11:45.394
Hip implant cases that got those pulled off the market
00:11:45.394 --> 00:11:49.198
Before that, that i tried, i've tried asbestos cases.
00:11:49.198 --> 00:11:53.235
I've tried, the first vioxx case that was an arthritic drug.
00:11:53.235 --> 00:11:57.740
We got pulled off the market.
00:11:57.740 --> 00:11:58.941
I tried the actos case that got the warning label
00:11:58.941 --> 00:12:02.044
Changed for actos.
00:12:02.044 --> 00:12:03.879
We've i've got,
00:12:04.280 --> 00:12:05.881
By the grace of god, about 20 billion in verdict so far.
00:12:05.881 --> 00:12:08.918
So this is your thang.
00:12:08.918 --> 00:12:11.687
You are a justice warrior.
00:12:11.687 --> 00:12:15.224
You use the law, but you have to walk in like you know,
00:12:15.224 --> 00:12:20.429
We around tbn and people
00:12:20.930 --> 00:12:22.932
And communications know about the 230, protections.
00:12:22.932 --> 00:12:26.936
And if you would explain that briefly.
00:12:26.936 --> 00:12:29.505
So you had to kind of, you know, navigate it.
00:12:29.505 --> 00:12:32.174
You're right. you're right.
00:12:32.174 --> 00:12:33.309
And so there is a law that was passed in the mid 90s
00:12:33.309 --> 00:12:36.846
And we just call it 230,
00:12:37.346 --> 00:12:39.114
Because that's the section of the code where it is.
00:12:39.114 --> 00:12:42.017
But this law says that,
00:12:42.017 --> 00:12:44.420
An internet publisher, for example, cannot be held
00:12:44.420 --> 00:12:48.591
Accountable for the content of what it's publishing
00:12:48.591 --> 00:12:52.528
Because it comes from viewers or they it comes from
00:12:52.528 --> 00:12:56.365
It seems them like a paper boy who's delivering a newspaper.
00:12:56.365 --> 00:13:00.236
And you can't sue the paper boy.
00:13:00.236 --> 00:13:01.971
If the the dallas morning news has an article
00:13:01.971 --> 00:13:05.841
That slanders someone, right.
00:13:05.841 --> 00:13:07.209
You sue the dallas morning news.
00:13:07.209 --> 00:13:08.944
So the idea is these are just paper boys that are delivering
00:13:08.944 --> 00:13:12.381
Other people's content, so you can't sue them for that.
00:13:12.381 --> 00:13:17.086
And now,
00:13:17.319 --> 00:13:18.287
That in itself may have been true
00:13:18.287 --> 00:13:19.722
In the mid 90s, but it's not true today.
00:13:19.722 --> 00:13:21.857
They have absolute filters, absolute control.
00:13:21.857 --> 00:13:24.460
They know everything and they're actually
00:13:24.460 --> 00:13:26.662
Orchestrating people to those websites.
00:13:26.662 --> 00:13:29.365
They're sponsoring them.
00:13:29.365 --> 00:13:30.499
These algorithms are far beyond that.
00:13:30.499 --> 00:13:32.868
And that's why that protection ought to be removed from them.
00:13:32.868 --> 00:13:35.537
But but that law exists.
00:13:35.537 --> 00:13:38.507
So you had to kind of work around it.
00:13:38.507 --> 00:13:41.176
Okay.
00:13:41.176 --> 00:13:42.244
So what we did is, you know, our plaintiff, caylee.
00:13:42.244 --> 00:13:44.947
Yeah.
00:13:45.180 --> 00:13:46.215
She had been victim of sexploitation on the, the
00:13:46.215 --> 00:13:49.818
The apps as a teen and even a preteen.
00:13:49.818 --> 00:13:53.555
She had been victim of,
00:13:53.555 --> 00:13:55.224
Bullying and some other things like that.
00:13:55.224 --> 00:13:58.494
We can't could not get into the content.
00:13:58.494 --> 00:14:02.898
All we could do is say, you know, you addicted her
00:14:02.898 --> 00:14:08.237
And with addiction of a child and you alter their brain
00:14:08.237 --> 00:14:11.707
In that way, you wind up turning that child
00:14:11.707 --> 00:14:15.644
Into a different
00:14:15.644 --> 00:14:16.946
Trajectory of life than they would have had otherwise.
00:14:16.946 --> 00:14:20.015
And so we just went after the features that are addictive
00:14:20.015 --> 00:14:24.787
And tried to stay off of the content
00:14:24.787 --> 00:14:27.890
So that we could actually hold
00:14:27.890 --> 00:14:29.224
This case on appeal, which is our next goal.
00:14:29.224 --> 00:14:31.860
So you basically took the case, you prayed about it.
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:36.498
And so how long did you have to prep,
00:14:36.498 --> 00:14:39.668
In regard to because ever since.
00:14:39.668 --> 00:14:42.671
Oh, so this was a while, right?
00:14:43.339 --> 00:14:46.308
This was rocket sled version of litigation,
00:14:46.308 --> 00:14:49.345
Especially at the scale that you're talking about.
00:14:49.345 --> 00:14:52.414
Yeah.
00:14:52.414 --> 00:14:53.615
You got to understand that there are millions of documents.
00:14:53.615 --> 00:14:58.487
And so this is where i feel guilty saying i tried this case.
00:14:58.487 --> 00:15:02.458
Yeah.
00:15:02.458 --> 00:15:03.726
I mean, i went in with two of my daughters as my co-counsel,
00:15:03.726 --> 00:15:06.195
And we picked the jury and, and i made the arguments
00:15:06.195 --> 00:15:09.264
And i put on the witnesses,
00:15:09.264 --> 00:15:11.033
All except one that my daughter put on rachel.
00:15:11.033 --> 00:15:13.535
And i did the closing argument, so i can say i tried this case
00:15:13.535 --> 00:15:17.306
And that would be accurate.
00:15:17.306 --> 00:15:18.474
But there was a gaggle of incredible lawyers
00:15:18.474 --> 00:15:22.945
Behind me who were reading millions of pages of documents,
00:15:22.945 --> 00:15:26.482
Who were giving me outlines, who were giving me.
00:15:26.482 --> 00:15:28.884
And so many of them are people of faith.
00:15:28.884 --> 00:15:32.087
And that was really moving because we could,
00:15:32.087 --> 00:15:35.657
I mean, this is this is high gear litigation, right?
00:15:35.657 --> 00:15:39.094
We google bought the best lawyers they could.
00:15:39.094 --> 00:15:42.364
Yeah,
00:15:42.364 --> 00:15:43.599
We're up against many of the largest law firms in the world.
00:15:43.599 --> 00:15:46.902
They've got everybody they can work in this case.
00:15:46.902 --> 00:15:50.906
We've got a small
00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:52.908
Little cottage, but we've got something on our side.
00:15:52.908 --> 00:15:56.612
We have the lord.
00:15:57.046 --> 00:15:58.247
How about truth and truth and the lord go hand in hand.
00:15:58.247 --> 00:16:02.117
He is the way, the truth and the life.
00:16:02.117 --> 00:16:04.520
He cares about justice.
00:16:04.520 --> 00:16:06.155
He cares about the vulnerable.
00:16:06.155 --> 00:16:08.090
He cares for the widows and the orphans.
00:16:08.090 --> 00:16:10.092
And he cares for the children.
00:16:10.092 --> 00:16:12.127
And and woe be to the one who causes a child to go astray.
00:16:12.127 --> 00:16:16.098
It'd be better for a millstone to be thrown.
00:16:16.098 --> 00:16:18.233
So i wanted to throw a millstone
00:16:18.233 --> 00:16:20.135
Around the neck of these companies.
00:16:20.135 --> 00:16:21.804
That was the way i was thinking.
00:16:21.804 --> 00:16:23.105
And there's a great proverb that we were living by.
00:16:23.105 --> 00:16:26.141
It's proverbs 2131 and that says,
00:16:26.141 --> 00:16:29.945
The horses prepared for battle,
00:16:29.945 --> 00:16:32.314
But the victory belongs to the lord.
00:16:33.082 --> 00:16:35.250
So we knew we've got to prepare.
00:16:35.250 --> 00:16:37.753
We've got to get our horse ready.
00:16:37.753 --> 00:16:39.388
We've got to, to to do everything it takes.
00:16:39.388 --> 00:16:42.124
If we can't sleep, we don't sleep.
00:16:42.124 --> 00:16:43.926
I can't tell you how many all nighters were pulled.
00:16:43.926 --> 00:16:46.428
I can't tell you how many times the day before.
00:16:46.428 --> 00:16:49.898
All right. i go to bed the night before closing argument.
00:16:49.898 --> 00:16:52.601
This is the pinnacle moment.
00:16:52.601 --> 00:16:54.903
I go to bed pretty early, and i told my daughters, i said,
00:16:54.903 --> 00:16:58.373
Here's what i need when i wake up.
00:16:58.373 --> 00:17:00.409
They know my hours.
00:17:00.409 --> 00:17:01.710
I said, here's what i need when i wake up.
00:17:01.710 --> 00:17:03.345
I need this stack, this stack, this stack.
00:17:03.345 --> 00:17:05.747
And i also need somebody on call that
00:17:05.747 --> 00:17:08.784
I can text to get me something at all hours of the night.
00:17:08.784 --> 00:17:12.221
So come up with the 24 hour call sheet.
00:17:12.221 --> 00:17:15.124
And, and my war room was right
00:17:15.124 --> 00:17:18.260
Underneath by a spiral staircase,
00:17:18.260 --> 00:17:20.295
The bedroom where my wife and i were sleeping.
00:17:20.295 --> 00:17:22.231
So i went upstairs.
00:17:22.231 --> 00:17:23.799
Back in, i went to bed.
00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:25.434
It was probably 10:00 at night,
00:17:25.434 --> 00:17:29.037
And my daughters are down there working fast and furious
00:17:29.037 --> 00:17:31.874
With a couple of my other young lawyers.
00:17:31.874 --> 00:17:33.809
And then i get up at 114, in the morning,
00:17:33.809 --> 00:17:38.213
And i come back down the spiral staircase
00:17:38.213 --> 00:17:40.582
And they're still down there slaving away, and they were on
00:17:40.582 --> 00:17:43.585
The shift till 3:00, so they work till 3 a.m..
00:17:43.585 --> 00:17:46.722
Then i sent them to bed,
00:17:46.722 --> 00:17:47.923
And then another crew took over at 3 a.m.
00:17:47.923 --> 00:17:50.726
And we worked it until 7 a.m..
00:17:50.726 --> 00:17:52.661
And then everybody showered, got ready and we went to court
00:17:52.661 --> 00:17:55.164
And i gave a two hour closing argument.
00:17:55.164 --> 00:17:57.232
And but it's like that.
00:17:57.232 --> 00:17:59.501
It's intense. it's it's,
00:17:59.501 --> 00:18:02.204
It it is driven by
00:18:02.638 --> 00:18:05.274
Energy and and focus and prayer and camaraderie.
00:18:05.274 --> 00:18:09.745
You don't do anything except this.
00:18:09.745 --> 00:18:11.480
I would come home on the weekends to teach at church,
00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:13.682
But other than that, you know, i don't.
00:18:13.682 --> 00:18:15.884
I don't do anything. this. i'm in a tunnel.
00:18:15.884 --> 00:18:18.554
This is.
00:18:18.554 --> 00:18:19.188
Yeah.
00:18:19.188 --> 00:18:20.088
You know, my meals are brought to me.
00:18:20.088 --> 00:18:22.257
I don't have time to go run or exercise.
00:18:22.257 --> 00:18:26.728
You know, i just, i just a minute.
00:18:26.728 --> 00:18:29.531
You use the analogy of the horse
00:18:29.531 --> 00:18:33.001
Is prepared for battle, but the victory belongs to the lord.
00:18:33.001 --> 00:18:37.472
My dad was from missouri.
00:18:37.472 --> 00:18:39.107
He had have all these old sayings,
00:18:39.107 --> 00:18:40.842
And he he he would always if he saw somebody
00:18:40.842 --> 00:18:44.713
That was kind of tired and kind of you, you you
00:18:44.713 --> 00:18:49.051
You look like you've been rode hard and put up
00:18:49.051 --> 00:18:51.186
Wet, you know, and, and so you walked in.
00:18:51.186 --> 00:18:55.190
You're looking sharp.
00:18:55.190 --> 00:18:56.425
The lord is with you. he's energized you.
00:18:56.425 --> 00:18:59.228
You're on a circuit for the media right now.
00:18:59.228 --> 00:19:02.464
That is, you know,
00:19:02.464 --> 00:19:03.999
It feels like you're on, you know, some kind of a campaign.
00:19:03.999 --> 00:19:07.636
You know, you've got to get this story out.
00:19:07.636 --> 00:19:10.105
You've got to get it.
00:19:10.105 --> 00:19:10.906
But thank you for stopping by tbn
00:19:10.906 --> 00:19:14.843
And and giving us the long form version.
00:19:14.843 --> 00:19:18.180
You're only getting to give sound bites about this
00:19:18.180 --> 00:19:22.517
In other places.
00:19:22.517 --> 00:19:23.685
This is where we want to hear kind of the full story.
00:19:23.685 --> 00:19:26.755
So with this victory,
00:19:26.755 --> 00:19:30.158
Weren't your wasn't your verbiage
00:19:30.926 --> 00:19:33.595
Supposed to be allegedly, there were internal documents
00:19:33.595 --> 00:19:38.267
Allegedly there were studies done on the inside.
00:19:38.267 --> 00:19:42.838
Now that this has gone all the way to a jury
00:19:42.838 --> 00:19:45.974
Of their peers, they have been found liable.
00:19:45.974 --> 00:19:50.646
These awards are handed out.
00:19:51.213 --> 00:19:52.814
Doesn't matter about the numbers that that that doesn't matter.
00:19:52.814 --> 00:19:55.951
What matters is one of the comparisons
00:19:55.951 --> 00:19:59.921
That i think that i'm starting to see to the tobacco industry.
00:19:59.921 --> 00:20:03.959
Can you speak to that.
00:20:04.459 --> 00:20:05.794
That may be what has happened here is domino
00:20:05.794 --> 00:20:10.299
Number one of many that's going to fall in the future.
00:20:10.299 --> 00:20:14.369
That is going to kind of make social media
00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:18.573
Back to a neutral influence rather than one,
00:20:18.573 --> 00:20:22.944
You know, because what i want social media,
00:20:22.944 --> 00:20:25.781
We have a large number of people
00:20:25.781 --> 00:20:29.384
That are watching the gospel, on social media.
00:20:29.384 --> 00:20:33.355
So we're social media is not bad.
00:20:33.355 --> 00:20:35.324
So what i said at the beginning of this,
00:20:35.324 --> 00:20:36.858
But it's in the news right now
00:20:36.858 --> 00:20:38.593
Because of systems that were embedded in it
00:20:38.593 --> 00:20:41.496
That were harmful, okay, harmful for things like anxiety,
00:20:41.496 --> 00:20:45.100
Depression, body image, sleep, sleep deprivation,
00:20:45.100 --> 00:20:49.271
All that kind of stuff was internal studies.
00:20:49.271 --> 00:20:52.341
They were allegedly there.
00:20:52.341 --> 00:20:54.209
Now we can talk. they were there.
00:20:54.209 --> 00:20:55.977
They were there.
00:20:55.977 --> 00:20:56.845
Okay. yeah. and now i can.
00:20:56.845 --> 00:20:58.947
When your verbiage can change now my verbiage can change.
00:20:58.947 --> 00:21:01.817
Because when we first got into the case,
00:21:01.817 --> 00:21:03.985
We had to sign a protective
00:21:03.985 --> 00:21:05.854
Order is what it's called under the law.
00:21:05.854 --> 00:21:07.622
It means when we see these documents,
00:21:07.622 --> 00:21:09.491
We won't share these documents. we won't make them public.
00:21:09.491 --> 00:21:12.394
These are private,
00:21:12.394 --> 00:21:13.428
Confidential, ultra confidential to the company.
00:21:13.428 --> 00:21:16.431
But once we have an open court system in america,
00:21:16.431 --> 00:21:19.201
Once we put the document into evidence and trial, it's public.
00:21:19.201 --> 00:21:22.671
And so i can say now, not only did
00:21:22.671 --> 00:21:26.308
They have the studies, but they had internal documents
00:21:26.308 --> 00:21:30.212
That where the workers were concerned.
00:21:30.212 --> 00:21:33.115
So i'll take a back story.
00:21:33.115 --> 00:21:34.349
The nice thing about being able
00:21:34.349 --> 00:21:35.650
To give the whole story here is you can take back for a moment
00:21:35.650 --> 00:21:38.186
There is a phd doctor, david michaels,
00:21:38.186 --> 00:21:42.924
And he wrote this book entitled doubt is their product.
00:21:42.924 --> 00:21:47.629
A he teaches public health at george washington university
00:21:47.629 --> 00:21:50.799
In dc.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:51.867
And david's
00:21:51.867 --> 00:21:52.801
Book is one that's profound
00:21:52.801 --> 00:21:54.336
Because he goes through the tobacco industry,
00:21:54.336 --> 00:21:56.772
He goes through the asbestos industry,
00:21:56.772 --> 00:21:59.141
He goes through a number of different industries
00:21:59.141 --> 00:22:01.710
Where the industry itself was funding science
00:22:01.710 --> 00:22:06.114
To raise doubts, as if, you know, you can go back
00:22:06.114 --> 00:22:09.851
And look for 15 years, the tobacco industry was funding
00:22:09.851 --> 00:22:13.488
Science to say smoking is not bad for your health.
00:22:13.488 --> 00:22:17.559
Well, once that balloon was popped
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:19.461
And we realized who was funding that, you know, for 30,
00:22:19.461 --> 00:22:22.564
30 years, three decades, the asbestos industry
00:22:22.564 --> 00:22:25.133
Was funding science and said asbestos does not hurt you.
00:22:25.133 --> 00:22:28.503
And once we popped that balloon, it's out there.
00:22:28.503 --> 00:22:31.339
So that's what historically has been done.
00:22:31.339 --> 00:22:35.010
Doubt is their product.
00:22:35.010 --> 00:22:37.179
So we found inside the documents the company said
00:22:37.179 --> 00:22:41.249
We're funding these studies trying to sow doubt
00:22:41.249 --> 00:22:44.453
About whether or not our product hurts teenagers.
00:22:44.453 --> 00:22:47.689
Are we going to be compared to the tobacco industry?
00:22:47.689 --> 00:22:50.559
Oh my gosh.
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:51.259
And, and and the other one said,
00:22:51.259 --> 00:22:52.961
Yeah, basically that's what we're doing.
00:22:52.961 --> 00:22:56.064
And so you've got a company where the company does a study
00:22:56.064 --> 00:22:59.935
And they the meta which is facebook, instagram
00:22:59.935 --> 00:23:03.972
Hires the university of chicago to do this incredible study
00:23:03.972 --> 00:23:08.143
On whether or not social media hurts you.
00:23:08.143 --> 00:23:11.012
They make part of the agreement
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:13.448
That the university of chicago will not publish the study.
00:23:13.448 --> 00:23:17.652
It will remain secret
00:23:18.153 --> 00:23:19.554
Within meta, and meta can decide whether or not to publish it.
00:23:19.554 --> 00:23:23.358
The study comes back and the study says that
00:23:23.358 --> 00:23:27.429
Not only is social media something that can cause
00:23:27.429 --> 00:23:30.765
A lot of problems with these children,
00:23:30.765 --> 00:23:32.734
But the more vulnerable the children,
00:23:32.734 --> 00:23:35.470
The more likely they are to have this problematic use,
00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:38.940
The more vulnerable that children, children
00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:41.977
With alcoholic parents, children without a stable home
00:23:41.977 --> 00:23:44.946
Life, children who are troubled will be even more
00:23:44.946 --> 00:23:48.950
Likely to do it.
00:23:48.950 --> 00:23:50.118
And so when i had mark zuckerberg on the stand
00:23:50.118 --> 00:23:52.587
To cross-examine him in this case, i said to him, i said, mr.
00:23:52.587 --> 00:23:56.558
Zuckerberg, will you agree with me
00:23:56.558 --> 00:24:00.228
That there are people in this world who are children
00:24:00.228 --> 00:24:05.267
And who are less, able to handle the stresses of life.
00:24:05.267 --> 00:24:10.438
They're vulnerable.
00:24:10.438 --> 00:24:11.940
They may have a difficult home life.
00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:14.276
They may have difficult genetics.
00:24:14.276 --> 00:24:16.511
They may have, struggle economically.
00:24:16.511 --> 00:24:19.915
Would you agree with me?
00:24:19.915 --> 00:24:20.749
Those people exist, he said. sure.
00:24:20.749 --> 00:24:22.951
I said, there in the world. he said, yes.
00:24:22.951 --> 00:24:24.986
I said, there in america. he said yes.
00:24:24.986 --> 00:24:26.955
I said, they're in california.
00:24:26.955 --> 00:24:28.990
He said yes. i said, they're in our neighborhood.
00:24:28.990 --> 00:24:31.860
He said, okay, fine.
00:24:32.294 --> 00:24:34.496
And i said, now seems to me
00:24:34.496 --> 00:24:36.264
There are three things we could do with those people.
00:24:36.264 --> 00:24:39.401
I'm getting sweaty.
00:24:39.401 --> 00:24:40.435
I know, you know, i know i'm
00:24:40.435 --> 00:24:41.870
Just i'm not even mark zuckerberg. okay?
00:24:41.870 --> 00:24:44.439
So i thank god i don't like where i am right now.
00:24:44.439 --> 00:24:48.944
Go ahead. i said.
00:24:49.377 --> 00:24:50.512
There are three things mr.
00:24:50.512 --> 00:24:52.080
Zuckerberg we can do.
00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:53.648
Approach one, just put on blinders
00:24:53.648 --> 00:24:56.017
Out of sight, out of mind.
00:24:56.017 --> 00:24:57.652
We don't see him.
00:24:57.652 --> 00:24:58.787
We don't have to think about him. that's one approach.
00:24:58.787 --> 00:25:01.156
He said, okay, i said approach number two.
00:25:01.156 --> 00:25:04.859
We can help them.
00:25:05.293 --> 00:25:07.562
We can figure out, here's an 80 person,
00:25:07.562 --> 00:25:09.731
Here's a vulnerable person.
00:25:09.731 --> 00:25:10.999
How can i help?
00:25:10.999 --> 00:25:13.335
That's the second thing we could do.
00:25:13.335 --> 00:25:14.603
And he said, yeah, he said, but there's a third option
00:25:14.603 --> 00:25:18.540
We can pray upon now.
00:25:19.040 --> 00:25:21.176
Oh dear.
00:25:21.176 --> 00:25:22.477
We can see them as something that we can use.
00:25:22.477 --> 00:25:26.514
We can target them to enrich our coffers.
00:25:26.514 --> 00:25:30.952
And that was my question.
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.054
Why did facebook choose option three?
00:25:33.054 --> 00:25:36.725
Oh dear god.
00:25:36.725 --> 00:25:37.826
And i started my closing
00:25:37.826 --> 00:25:39.260
Argument weeks later with a big picture of a lioness
00:25:39.260 --> 00:25:43.398
Circling the gazelle herd on the serengeti.
00:25:43.398 --> 00:25:46.835
And i brought back that story,
00:25:47.469 --> 00:25:49.704
And i said, you know, when the lions
00:25:49.704 --> 00:25:52.140
Hunting on the serengeti, they don't find the biggest,
00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:54.943
Strongest right, most agile gazelle.
00:25:54.943 --> 00:25:58.346
They look for the vulnerable.
00:25:58.346 --> 00:26:00.281
They look for the one that won't run so fast.
00:26:00.281 --> 00:26:02.484
They look for the one that will
00:26:02.484 --> 00:26:03.752
Struggle to keep up and that's the one they go for.
00:26:03.752 --> 00:26:07.656
And that's what this company's done.
00:26:07.656 --> 00:26:09.591
And the company knew it.
00:26:09.591 --> 00:26:11.126
Their internal documents, i don't have to say a legend.
00:26:11.126 --> 00:26:14.396
I can tell you
00:26:14.396 --> 00:26:15.797
About that document that said, here's a feedback loop.
00:26:15.797 --> 00:26:18.833
You take people with mental health challenges
00:26:18.833 --> 00:26:21.136
And you let them have social media addiction
00:26:21.136 --> 00:26:24.305
And it will take everything and just amplify it and amp it up
00:26:24.305 --> 00:26:27.909
Because they'll start losing sleep. they'll have that body
00:26:27.909 --> 00:26:30.211
Dysmorphia, the body image issues.
00:26:30.211 --> 00:26:32.480
They'll have all of these mental health problems on steroids.
00:26:32.480 --> 00:26:37.018
I mean, it is it it is a it's a snowball effect
00:26:37.018 --> 00:26:40.889
Of rolling down the hill. and they knew it.
00:26:40.889 --> 00:26:43.591
And still did it.
00:26:43.591 --> 00:26:44.826
Satan roams
00:26:44.826 --> 00:26:48.596
Seeking to devour, to devour.
00:26:48.596 --> 00:26:51.800
He doesn't go after,
00:26:52.233 --> 00:26:53.835
You know, the strongest in the herd either. yeah.
00:26:53.835 --> 00:26:56.337
So literally there was almost a satanic
00:26:56.337 --> 00:26:59.574
Playbook in regard to,
00:26:59.574 --> 00:27:02.644
To kind of going after the most vulnerable here.
00:27:02.644 --> 00:27:05.246
And you just, you just
00:27:05.246 --> 00:27:07.882
Got a jury to agree
00:27:08.349 --> 00:27:10.885
And make them liable for doing exactly what you just said.
00:27:10.885 --> 00:27:14.155
Yeah.
00:27:14.155 --> 00:27:15.390
You know, when peter wrote that, i wonder if he had any idea
00:27:15.390 --> 00:27:17.425
That 2000 years later, in los angeles, california courthouse,
00:27:17.425 --> 00:27:22.063
That that image would be in the mind of a lawyer
00:27:22.063 --> 00:27:24.199
Who was trying to to come against what they're doing.
00:27:24.199 --> 00:27:27.502
And it is, and i'm reminded also of, of paul in corinthians,
00:27:27.502 --> 00:27:32.841
Where he says, satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
00:27:32.841 --> 00:27:36.010
You know, the oh, but look,
00:27:36.010 --> 00:27:37.579
We're actually doing all this good.
00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:39.114
There is good that can be done with social media.
00:27:39.114 --> 00:27:41.716
I used social media to post a video thought for the day
00:27:41.716 --> 00:27:45.086
Just short 2.5 minute thought each day
00:27:45.086 --> 00:27:47.489
And and to try and focus people on on to god.
00:27:47.489 --> 00:27:50.792
There is a lot of good
00:27:50.792 --> 00:27:53.328
That can be done with social media,
00:27:53.328 --> 00:27:54.929
But every tool that can be used for god's kingdom
00:27:54.929 --> 00:27:58.333
Can also be used by the enemy
00:27:58.333 --> 00:28:01.136
He can disguise with as an angel of light.
00:28:01.136 --> 00:28:03.338
He can be a lion, and he can go out there
00:28:03.338 --> 00:28:05.373
And try to destroy that which god can use for good.
00:28:05.373 --> 00:28:09.544
Yeah, and that's his m.o..
00:28:09.544 --> 00:28:10.945
Yeah.
00:28:10.945 --> 00:28:11.946
It's like every technology that has come around
00:28:11.946 --> 00:28:15.216
All the decades, you know, television.
00:28:15.216 --> 00:28:17.685
I mean, you were going to go to hell
00:28:17.685 --> 00:28:19.020
If you had a television movies, you know, going to the theaters
00:28:19.020 --> 00:28:23.291
Directly to hell, promote music, rock music, all of it.
00:28:23.291 --> 00:28:26.628
You know, at some point, though, you know, we
00:28:26.628 --> 00:28:29.931
We have to put light where the darkness is.
00:28:29.931 --> 00:28:33.668
Amen. no one's taking social media away.
00:28:33.668 --> 00:28:36.104
That'll never happen. ever. and that's fine.
00:28:36.104 --> 00:28:38.940
People have found a voice, right?
00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:41.576
Or wrong, whether you agree with it or not.
00:28:41.576 --> 00:28:43.945
They found a voice.
00:28:43.945 --> 00:28:44.879
They're never going to give it up.
00:28:44.879 --> 00:28:46.047
Okay, so we might as well go
00:28:46.047 --> 00:28:47.882
And put light where they're starting. okay.
00:28:47.882 --> 00:28:50.685
My dad, bless his heart, was an assembly of
00:28:50.685 --> 00:28:54.856
God raised preacher's kid.
00:28:54.856 --> 00:28:58.026
Missionary kid. okay, he was as
00:28:58.026 --> 00:29:01.796
Conservative as you could be.
00:29:02.430 --> 00:29:04.332
But you know where he got outside the box occasionally
00:29:04.332 --> 00:29:08.803
When satellite came along,
00:29:09.370 --> 00:29:12.507
There were transponders.
00:29:12.507 --> 00:29:13.808
If you go back, you and i can go back to the day
00:29:13.808 --> 00:29:16.845
Of the very first time.
00:29:16.845 --> 00:29:18.446
You could buy a six foot dish, put it in your backyard,
00:29:18.446 --> 00:29:21.816
And you could have a little remote.
00:29:21.816 --> 00:29:24.052
Your dish would kind of move around
00:29:24.052 --> 00:29:25.753
And look for the transponders on the on the satellite.
00:29:25.753 --> 00:29:28.456
The very first satellite, tbn, was in the middle of it.
00:29:28.456 --> 00:29:31.593
Why? why?
00:29:31.593 --> 00:29:33.328
Because my dad looked up
00:29:33.328 --> 00:29:34.796
One day in the den of our home in orange county, california,
00:29:34.796 --> 00:29:38.700
And saw what looked like an at&t commercial on the ceiling.
00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:41.636
And the lord spoke to him and said, satellite soon.
00:29:41.636 --> 00:29:45.473
Wow. so my dad put a signature on satellite contracts
00:29:45.473 --> 00:29:48.776
All over the world, over 40 years that he ran tbn.
00:29:48.776 --> 00:29:52.847
But you know, what he was just giggly about
00:29:52.847 --> 00:29:56.017
Is that at one point, the tbn transponder was right
00:29:56.017 --> 00:29:59.520
Next to the playboy channels.
00:29:59.520 --> 00:30:01.789
Transponder.
00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:02.857
Oh, and he loved that.
00:30:02.857 --> 00:30:04.792
Wow. where others others
00:30:04.792 --> 00:30:08.463
Thought we should have our own christian satellite.
00:30:08.463 --> 00:30:13.201
And just for the christians to just sit there
00:30:13.201 --> 00:30:16.437
On their blessed assurance
00:30:16.437 --> 00:30:17.906
And get nothing but just built up instead, my
00:30:17.906 --> 00:30:22.143
Dad had this pretty hard core, you know, attitude.
00:30:22.143 --> 00:30:26.748
We've got to put light wherever we can.
00:30:26.748 --> 00:30:30.118
Hey, so we've had that attitude.
00:30:30.118 --> 00:30:32.687
Social media is not bad inherently.
00:30:32.687 --> 00:30:36.024
It's neutral.
00:30:36.024 --> 00:30:37.425
But if you build a platform with algorithms
00:30:37.425 --> 00:30:41.696
Meant to prey on the vulnerable,
00:30:41.696 --> 00:30:44.599
You get your butt handed to you in court.
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:47.535
That's the goal.
00:30:47.535 --> 00:30:48.503
You know,
00:30:48.503 --> 00:30:49.671
I love that that that's that story of of your history
00:30:49.671 --> 00:30:52.540
And heritage and your dad.
00:30:52.540 --> 00:30:54.042
And we're here in this gorgeous, well lit studio,
00:30:54.042 --> 00:30:57.145
Got nice lights in here so that people can see us
00:30:57.145 --> 00:31:00.715
And we're not in shadow and all.
00:31:00.715 --> 00:31:02.684
And you and i, and we all have flashlights on our phone,
00:31:02.684 --> 00:31:06.054
But i don't need it here because this is all well lit.
00:31:06.054 --> 00:31:09.023
But if i go into a dark corridor or i go into a closet,
00:31:09.023 --> 00:31:12.660
Or i go into someplace where there isn't light,
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:14.929
I'm so thankful to have that light to shine.
00:31:14.929 --> 00:31:17.799
We as christians can't just live in the studio, right?
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:20.802
We need to be out in the world. we need to be engaged.
00:31:20.802 --> 00:31:23.738
We need to find these areas
00:31:23.738 --> 00:31:25.773
That need the light of the lord shined in their midst.
00:31:25.773 --> 00:31:29.711
And what tbn has done, what your dad, what the vision
00:31:29.711 --> 00:31:32.780
That god put on his heart and in his eye was just profound.
00:31:32.780 --> 00:31:37.318
And i'm sure your viewers are all well aware of the fact,
00:31:37.318 --> 00:31:40.221
But you guys are like, everywhere.
00:31:40.221 --> 00:31:43.524
I mean, much everywhere.
00:31:43.524 --> 00:31:45.526
Yeah, that was one of ours.
00:31:45.526 --> 00:31:47.095
And that's one of our slogans.
00:31:47.095 --> 00:31:48.363
By the way, thanks for quoting tbn everywhere.
00:31:48.363 --> 00:31:50.665
But anyway, you just a bit of a reset mark.
00:31:50.665 --> 00:31:54.502
Linear.
00:31:54.502 --> 00:31:55.303
Thank you for popping in.
00:31:55.303 --> 00:31:57.305
Immediately.
00:31:57.305 --> 00:31:59.040
After the trial, you're here.
00:31:59.040 --> 00:32:02.176
You just sued some of the the largest companies
00:32:02.176 --> 00:32:06.214
That have ever existed on planet earth.
00:32:06.214 --> 00:32:08.816
They had what would be considered,
00:32:08.816 --> 00:32:10.985
In a legal sense, an unlimited budget.
00:32:10.985 --> 00:32:13.021
They could have hired as many, you know, hired the world.
00:32:13.021 --> 00:32:16.524
Okay? they hired whoever they needed.
00:32:16.524 --> 00:32:18.426
David versus goliath.
00:32:18.426 --> 00:32:20.228
You weren't suing over content.
00:32:20.228 --> 00:32:23.297
You were suing over the fact
00:32:23.297 --> 00:32:25.900
That they specifically knew that
00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:30.338
An algorithm was preying on the vulnerable.
00:32:31.205 --> 00:32:34.375
Give me a scenario like, let's take somebody
00:32:34.375 --> 00:32:38.946
That this, body image type thing.
00:32:38.946 --> 00:32:43.284
So what was happening to a slightly overweight
00:32:43.284 --> 00:32:48.823
Young girl that didn't feel like she looked like the girls,
00:32:48.823 --> 00:32:52.927
In the magazines?
00:32:52.927 --> 00:32:55.129
What what what's happening?
00:32:55.129 --> 00:32:56.631
What was what's the what's the what's that algorithm actually
00:32:56.631 --> 00:33:00.835
Showing here? walk us through that.
00:33:00.835 --> 00:33:02.336
So there was an interesting tool that instagram put on
00:33:02.336 --> 00:33:06.040
And they're called filters.
00:33:06.040 --> 00:33:08.276
And they would allow that teenage girl
00:33:08.276 --> 00:33:11.145
Who's in that vulnerable age where all teenage girls.
00:33:11.145 --> 00:33:14.348
And when my one of my girls, i have four daughters,
00:33:14.348 --> 00:33:16.751
When my daughters
00:33:16.751 --> 00:33:17.952
Would get dressed for school, sometimes i'd say, you know,
00:33:17.952 --> 00:33:19.687
I don't really think that's appropriate, guys.
00:33:19.687 --> 00:33:21.823
And and what they had to sit me down and say is, dad,
00:33:21.823 --> 00:33:25.093
We don't really dress for the guys.
00:33:25.093 --> 00:33:27.128
We're dressing for the girls because this is this.
00:33:27.128 --> 00:33:30.298
And the movie mean girls is there for a reason.
00:33:30.298 --> 00:33:34.068
And and so you get girls in that tender age
00:33:34.068 --> 00:33:36.671
Where they're in that comparison mode.
00:33:36.671 --> 00:33:39.140
And you give them a filter
00:33:39.707 --> 00:33:41.876
And that filter enables them to get better cheekbones to
00:33:41.876 --> 00:33:45.780
Take away a little bit of this, to get rid of teenage acne,
00:33:45.780 --> 00:33:49.183
To smooth their skin, to slender their waist,
00:33:49.183 --> 00:33:53.254
To enhance their figure in whatever ways they choose.
00:33:53.254 --> 00:33:56.991
And they can do that
00:33:56.991 --> 00:33:58.559
Faster than you and i could dial a phone call
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:01.462
And then they post that.
00:34:01.462 --> 00:34:03.297
And it's not just that person who's doing it,
00:34:03.297 --> 00:34:05.066
But people are doing it all over the world.
00:34:05.066 --> 00:34:07.535
And so that becomes what you're supposed to look
00:34:07.535 --> 00:34:10.138
Like instead of what you really look like.
00:34:10.138 --> 00:34:13.774
And so now you've got teens
00:34:13.774 --> 00:34:14.876
That don't want
00:34:14.876 --> 00:34:16.043
To look in a mirror, teens that get violently upset if
00:34:16.043 --> 00:34:19.013
Someone posts a picture of them that hasn't been filtered.
00:34:19.013 --> 00:34:22.817
And so this is going on.
00:34:23.317 --> 00:34:25.419
It's disturbing people's mindsets.
00:34:25.419 --> 00:34:27.922
Mark zuckerberg himself gets a memo
00:34:27.922 --> 00:34:31.492
That says, hey,
00:34:31.492 --> 00:34:32.560
We've got to consider taking some of these filters
00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:35.730
And just taking them off,
00:34:35.730 --> 00:34:37.465
Because one of the key safety people inside meta
00:34:37.465 --> 00:34:41.002
Had a daughter who was in the hospital
00:34:41.002 --> 00:34:43.037
Dealing with body dysmorphia with these body issues.
00:34:43.037 --> 00:34:46.741
And so she's on a tirade about it.
00:34:46.741 --> 00:34:49.277
And so the decision is made initially
00:34:49.277 --> 00:34:51.445
To pull those filters off for the teens and people to use.
00:34:51.445 --> 00:34:55.283
And then mark zuckerberg is
00:34:55.283 --> 00:34:56.684
The one who says, now we're not going to do that.
00:34:56.684 --> 00:34:58.352
That's paternalistic.
00:34:58.352 --> 00:34:59.654
Put them back on their, put them back on their
00:34:59.654 --> 00:35:03.024
And they do.
00:35:03.324 --> 00:35:04.292
What did you specifically catch?
00:35:04.292 --> 00:35:07.562
If there are a handful of gotcha moments,
00:35:07.562 --> 00:35:12.466
What what what felt super satisfying to you
00:35:12.466 --> 00:35:17.738
That i suppose if you're
00:35:17.738 --> 00:35:19.073
Keeping an internal score during the trial long trial?
00:35:19.073 --> 00:35:22.910
How many weeks?
00:35:22.910 --> 00:35:23.644
It was basically seven weeks.
00:35:23.644 --> 00:35:25.713
Eight weeks?
00:35:25.713 --> 00:35:26.314
Yeah.
00:35:26.314 --> 00:35:27.448
So, we talked as you were driving up to los angeles.
00:35:27.448 --> 00:35:32.453
Hey, i'm headed to trial.
00:35:32.453 --> 00:35:33.921
You're in los angeles, right?
00:35:33.921 --> 00:35:35.089
Yeah, i'm driving into the u.
00:35:35.089 --> 00:35:36.958
So i was driving into the court system. i got.
00:35:36.958 --> 00:35:39.393
I got kind of for me, maybe you're touching me.
00:35:39.393 --> 00:35:42.463
Praying for you.
00:35:42.463 --> 00:35:43.497
Senator josh hawley texting me. praying for you.
00:35:43.497 --> 00:35:46.100
Okay, so, look, i i've been
00:35:46.100 --> 00:35:49.136
Hoping for this moment that we're sitting now doing okay.
00:35:49.136 --> 00:35:52.406
So give me some of these gotcha moments, because, look,
00:35:52.406 --> 00:35:56.510
Cameras were not allowed into the federal court system.
00:35:56.510 --> 00:36:00.114
I don't think ever.
00:36:00.114 --> 00:36:01.282
Are they ever, generally? no. yeah, generally.
00:36:01.282 --> 00:36:04.051
And this was actually in the state court,
00:36:04.051 --> 00:36:05.786
But the judge did not allow cameras.
00:36:05.786 --> 00:36:07.388
She didn't want it to be a sideshow.
00:36:07.388 --> 00:36:09.023
It could have been.
00:36:09.023 --> 00:36:10.091
It would have been a it would have been a great show.
00:36:10.091 --> 00:36:12.693
I would have loved it.
00:36:12.693 --> 00:36:13.561
But anyway, she didn't ask me.
00:36:13.561 --> 00:36:15.563
I would have said yes.
00:36:15.563 --> 00:36:16.931
And lori and i would have had a little anchor booth
00:36:16.931 --> 00:36:19.300
In the courtroom, you know, getting a blow by.
00:36:19.300 --> 00:36:21.202
But she's a great judge.
00:36:21.202 --> 00:36:22.436
But she wanted control of this case.
00:36:22.436 --> 00:36:24.138
Okay, give us some of the gotcha moments where you were seeing
00:36:24.138 --> 00:36:28.643
This is this is going in the win column for us.
00:36:28.643 --> 00:36:32.146
What what what happened? what what internal documents.
00:36:32.146 --> 00:36:35.049
What smoking gun moments. what happened?
00:36:35.049 --> 00:36:37.318
One that stands out in my mind.
00:36:37.318 --> 00:36:39.320
And i don't mean to.
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:40.454
Well, actually, i do mean to pick on mr. zuckerberg.
00:36:40.454 --> 00:36:42.857
One of the things that stands out of my mind is i took him
00:36:42.857 --> 00:36:46.794
To task over his testimony to congress.
00:36:46.794 --> 00:36:50.064
Let me just remind you
00:36:50.064 --> 00:36:51.065
Of some of the science from your own company.
00:36:51.065 --> 00:36:52.900
Instagram studied the effect of your platform on teenagers.
00:36:52.900 --> 00:36:58.205
Let me just read you some quotes from the wall street
00:36:58.205 --> 00:36:59.974
Journal's report on this company.
00:36:59.974 --> 00:37:01.309
Researchers found that instagram is harmful
00:37:01.309 --> 00:37:03.778
For a sizable percentage of teenagers, most notably
00:37:03.778 --> 00:37:07.014
Teenage girls.
00:37:07.014 --> 00:37:08.449
Here's a quote from your own study quote.
00:37:08.449 --> 00:37:10.184
We make body image issues worse for 1 in 3 teen girls.
00:37:10.184 --> 00:37:15.656
Here's another quote teens blamed instagram.
00:37:15.656 --> 00:37:17.591
This is your study for increases in the rate of anxiety
00:37:17.591 --> 00:37:20.661
And depression.
00:37:20.661 --> 00:37:21.929
This reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups.
00:37:21.929 --> 00:37:25.966
That's your study,
00:37:25.966 --> 00:37:27.601
Senator.
00:37:27.835 --> 00:37:28.336
We try to
00:37:28.336 --> 00:37:29.370
Understand the, the feedback and how people feel
00:37:29.370 --> 00:37:32.573
About the services we can improve.
00:37:32.573 --> 00:37:33.941
Wait a minute.
00:37:33.941 --> 00:37:35.009
Your own your own study says that you make life worse
00:37:35.009 --> 00:37:39.013
For 1 in 3 teenage girls, you increase anxiety and depression.
00:37:39.013 --> 00:37:42.950
That's what it says.
00:37:42.950 --> 00:37:43.918
And you're here testifying to us in public
00:37:43.918 --> 00:37:45.720
That there's no link.
00:37:45.720 --> 00:37:46.687
You've been doing this for years.
00:37:46.687 --> 00:37:47.955
For years you've been coming in public
00:37:47.955 --> 00:37:49.590
And testifying under oath that there's absolutely no link.
00:37:49.590 --> 00:37:52.760
Your product is wonderful. the science is nascent.
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.496
Full speed ahead.
00:37:55.496 --> 00:37:56.831
While internally, you know full well your product is a disaster
00:37:56.831 --> 00:38:00.801
For teenagers.
00:38:00.801 --> 00:38:02.169
He testified
00:38:02.169 --> 00:38:03.504
That children under 13 are not allowed on instagram.
00:38:03.504 --> 00:38:07.174
Now we know for a fact that they are
00:38:07.174 --> 00:38:10.277
And that the company actually encourages it
00:38:10.277 --> 00:38:13.547
And the company knows about it.
00:38:13.547 --> 00:38:15.783
And so i wanted to really sting him with that.
00:38:15.783 --> 00:38:19.286
So i got his testimony and he said, well,
00:38:19.286 --> 00:38:21.622
What i said to congress is true.
00:38:21.622 --> 00:38:23.457
I said, no, it's not.
00:38:23.457 --> 00:38:24.325
And and so he says, yes, yes, yes.
00:38:24.325 --> 00:38:26.994
And i showed the documents
00:38:26.994 --> 00:38:28.262
And i showed that it wasn't accurate.
00:38:28.262 --> 00:38:30.231
And all of this and, and and then he goes and he leaves.
00:38:30.231 --> 00:38:35.169
Then i called to the stand, our turtle bay.
00:38:35.169 --> 00:38:38.072
Ha our turtle bay ha
00:38:38.072 --> 00:38:40.174
Was in charge of the safety and well-being.
00:38:40.174 --> 00:38:44.145
And he left because he couldn't take it anymore.
00:38:44.145 --> 00:38:47.615
And he didn't like the priorities.
00:38:47.615 --> 00:38:49.016
And he didn't like what mark zuckerberg was doing.
00:38:49.016 --> 00:38:51.685
And he became what we call a whistleblower.
00:38:51.685 --> 00:38:54.688
And i said, okay, so mark zuckerberg says
00:38:54.688 --> 00:38:57.825
That you can't be on instagram if you're under 13.
00:38:57.825 --> 00:39:01.362
He says that's not true.
00:39:01.362 --> 00:39:02.797
And i said, how do we know?
00:39:02.797 --> 00:39:04.465
And he said, let me show you. and he gets his phone out.
00:39:04.465 --> 00:39:06.767
And what he had done is and he didn't do anything hard.
00:39:06.767 --> 00:39:11.272
He just typed in some stuff and within three minutes
00:39:11.272 --> 00:39:14.942
He's got four solid minutes of instagram reels of children
00:39:14.942 --> 00:39:19.580
Going my name, my age, my favorite color,
00:39:19.580 --> 00:39:22.983
And their name would appear.
00:39:22.983 --> 00:39:24.285
Their age would appear
00:39:24.285 --> 00:39:25.286
In their favorite color, their h9 age eight h6.
00:39:25.286 --> 00:39:29.223
Age seven.
00:39:29.223 --> 00:39:30.090
Age nine, age ten, age 11, age nine.
00:39:30.090 --> 00:39:33.260
Age six.
00:39:33.260 --> 00:39:34.762
And he.
00:39:34.762 --> 00:39:35.896
He uncovers this immediately and he says, don't tell me
00:39:35.896 --> 00:39:38.566
That children under 13 aren't on instagram.
00:39:38.566 --> 00:39:40.668
It's here.
00:39:40.668 --> 00:39:41.769
And it marries up with the documents that we had
00:39:41.769 --> 00:39:44.839
That shows
00:39:44.839 --> 00:39:46.006
That that they were even teaching children how to set up
00:39:46.006 --> 00:39:48.709
Private instagram accounts to hide from their parents.
00:39:48.709 --> 00:39:53.080
Oh my goodness.
00:39:53.080 --> 00:39:54.515
And they called him finsta accounts.
00:39:54.515 --> 00:39:58.052
And, it, it those, those were moments that were just like.
00:39:58.052 --> 00:40:01.822
And another really moment what,
00:40:02.490 --> 00:40:06.060
What the company tried to do is they tried this case by saying
00:40:06.060 --> 00:40:09.196
That our client, caylee had come from a difficult home.
00:40:09.196 --> 00:40:13.234
Yeah. they wanted to blame the mom.
00:40:13.234 --> 00:40:15.736
They wanted to blame the dad.
00:40:15.736 --> 00:40:17.705
They wanted, you know, her parents had divorced
00:40:17.705 --> 00:40:20.374
When she was three.
00:40:20.374 --> 00:40:21.775
The dad was isolated from the rest of the family,
00:40:21.775 --> 00:40:24.812
So they wanted to claim abandonment.
00:40:24.812 --> 00:40:27.882
And and they said,
00:40:27.882 --> 00:40:29.083
You know, that the daughter had a trauma at school
00:40:29.083 --> 00:40:33.087
And that trauma at school had caused the daughter
00:40:33.087 --> 00:40:35.389
And my client to think that she might kill herself.
00:40:35.389 --> 00:40:38.692
They had to take her to the hospital.
00:40:38.692 --> 00:40:40.895
And, they took her to the hospital
00:40:40.895 --> 00:40:42.596
Because she was threatening to kill herself.
00:40:42.596 --> 00:40:44.665
And and the other side does this, you know,
00:40:44.665 --> 00:40:48.269
And it shows all these documents,
00:40:48.269 --> 00:40:49.703
And then they just say, so there she was a mess.
00:40:49.703 --> 00:40:53.340
She was a basket case of her own making.
00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:56.243
And her parents think.
00:40:56.243 --> 00:40:57.745
And then i get up to do the the redirect.
00:40:57.745 --> 00:41:02.049
And i said,
00:41:02.383 --> 00:41:03.250
It actually
00:41:03.250 --> 00:41:03.984
Was a cross-examination. i got to
00:41:03.984 --> 00:41:05.319
Cross-examine their psychiatrist and i said, timeout.
00:41:05.319 --> 00:41:08.455
She went to the hospital because she's threatened suicide. yes.
00:41:08.455 --> 00:41:12.927
I said, you didn't tell the jury why she threatened suicide.
00:41:12.927 --> 00:41:16.297
She said, well, what do you mean?
00:41:16.297 --> 00:41:17.631
I said, it's in the medical records.
00:41:17.631 --> 00:41:19.600
Y'all just didn't show it.
00:41:19.600 --> 00:41:21.035
Hmhmm said, well, what do you mean?
00:41:21.035 --> 00:41:22.636
I said, let's look at it together.
00:41:22.636 --> 00:41:24.138
Let's show the jury.
00:41:24.138 --> 00:41:25.739
She threatened to commit suicide because her mom was going
00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.709
To punish her by taking her phone away.
00:41:28.709 --> 00:41:31.045
She said, mom, if you take my phone away
00:41:31.045 --> 00:41:33.213
Where i can't have social media, i'll kill myself.
00:41:33.213 --> 00:41:36.350
That's how addicted she was to social media.
00:41:37.251 --> 00:41:40.321
She wasn't
00:41:40.321 --> 00:41:41.589
Threatening to commit suicide over an embarrassment at school.
00:41:41.589 --> 00:41:44.291
She was threatening to commit suicide
00:41:44.291 --> 00:41:46.026
Because her mom was going to take away your phone.
00:41:46.026 --> 00:41:47.962
And that was her lifeline.
00:41:47.962 --> 00:41:50.130
Close quote. this.
00:41:50.130 --> 00:41:52.132
It's atrocious.
00:41:52.132 --> 00:41:53.701
I'm going to play lawyer for a second.
00:41:53.701 --> 00:41:55.502
I'm going to i'm going to ask you, like you're on the stand.
00:41:55.502 --> 00:41:59.406
I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth.
00:41:59.406 --> 00:42:00.674
Another great. you tried this case?
00:42:00.674 --> 00:42:04.144
Yes, yes.
00:42:04.445 --> 00:42:05.679
Okay.
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:09.283
You prayed about whether you should or you shouldn't.
00:42:09.283 --> 00:42:12.953
True.
00:42:12.953 --> 00:42:14.221
How did you know
00:42:14.221 --> 00:42:16.457
You were supposed to do this?
00:42:16.457 --> 00:42:19.259
It's for me.
00:42:19.259 --> 00:42:20.327
It's an assortment of things.
00:42:20.327 --> 00:42:23.597
I did not look up to the ceiling and have it written.
00:42:23.597 --> 00:42:26.700
I looked up to the ceiling, but it wasn't written.
00:42:26.700 --> 00:42:29.203
So god decided to reveal it to me in a different way.
00:42:29.203 --> 00:42:32.339
First of all, you remember the persistent widow with the judge?
00:42:32.339 --> 00:42:36.210
That was my daughter, rachel.
00:42:36.210 --> 00:42:37.878
She kept saying, dad, dad, dad, dad.
00:42:37.878 --> 00:42:40.547
And she was persistent.
00:42:40.547 --> 00:42:42.416
She's very wise and she's godly.
00:42:42.416 --> 00:42:45.786
And so that weighed heavily.
00:42:45.786 --> 00:42:47.521
My wife weighed heavily.
00:42:47.521 --> 00:42:50.124
And then i
00:42:50.124 --> 00:42:51.258
Started looking at the case, and i realized the justice
00:42:51.258 --> 00:42:54.561
That was involved and the stakes that were involved.
00:42:54.561 --> 00:42:57.498
I mean, god says through the prophet micah,
00:42:57.498 --> 00:43:00.668
What does the lord require of you to love?
00:43:00.668 --> 00:43:04.304
Justice is the first thing he says.
00:43:04.304 --> 00:43:06.473
Then do mercy and walk humbly with your god to love justice
00:43:06.473 --> 00:43:10.711
And to do justice.
00:43:10.711 --> 00:43:12.646
And i saw this as a righteous cause.
00:43:12.646 --> 00:43:14.848
And then in the midst of all of that, god's moving in my heart,
00:43:14.848 --> 00:43:18.118
And he's saying
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:19.853
He's he's
00:43:20.154 --> 00:43:21.055
I've got the conviction of the holy spirit,
00:43:21.055 --> 00:43:24.258
But it's also this, this mental processing.
00:43:24.258 --> 00:43:27.327
And that's the way he tends to work with me.
00:43:27.327 --> 00:43:29.430
He's worked he's worked very directly as well,
00:43:29.430 --> 00:43:32.533
In other ways.
00:43:32.533 --> 00:43:34.068
But that's when closing.
00:43:34.068 --> 00:43:36.136
I need a little bit of a closing argument here.
00:43:36.136 --> 00:43:39.206
Okay. i'm ready to go.
00:43:39.206 --> 00:43:40.774
About a million more.
00:43:40.774 --> 00:43:42.776
Mark lanier, we need we need right now, kind of the
00:43:42.776 --> 00:43:48.182
The the closing argument,
00:43:48.749 --> 00:43:50.884
You know, this case backwards and forwards.
00:43:50.884 --> 00:43:54.655
You know,
00:43:54.955 --> 00:43:57.091
What it was and what it wasn't.
00:43:57.091 --> 00:44:00.227
Okay, so there isn't very many people.
00:44:00.227 --> 00:44:02.529
You have a team of people that might know as much,
00:44:02.529 --> 00:44:05.265
You know, about this.
00:44:05.265 --> 00:44:06.533
But you you are.
00:44:06.533 --> 00:44:08.936
Now, if you would please give us
00:44:08.936 --> 00:44:13.874
What you
00:44:14.108 --> 00:44:15.209
Believe this is setting the stage for in the future.
00:44:15.209 --> 00:44:18.045
What could what what could happen
00:44:18.045 --> 00:44:20.214
And what positive things can come out of this,
00:44:20.214 --> 00:44:23.383
But talk directly to our audience, okay?
00:44:23.383 --> 00:44:26.386
Our jury is the audience.
00:44:26.386 --> 00:44:29.523
Give them
00:44:29.523 --> 00:44:32.126
What you believe after praying about it,
00:44:32.126 --> 00:44:36.697
Sensing the holy spirit's leading for you
00:44:36.697 --> 00:44:39.299
To try this case as the chief litigator,
00:44:39.299 --> 00:44:42.503
Getting the outcome that we have, finding these,
00:44:43.470 --> 00:44:48.642
Not the content, but literally the design
00:44:48.642 --> 00:44:52.246
Of the system to be found liable.
00:44:52.246 --> 00:44:55.649
What do you need?
00:44:56.083 --> 00:44:57.317
Our audience to take away from the whole experience
00:44:57.317 --> 00:45:01.855
That you just went through?
00:45:01.855 --> 00:45:03.557
Oh, mercy.
00:45:03.557 --> 00:45:04.358
All right, let's do it.
00:45:04.358 --> 00:45:07.394
Psalm 23 starts out
00:45:07.861 --> 00:45:10.998
And in hebrew it would say, i don't.
00:45:11.799 --> 00:45:13.767
I really yahweh is my shepherd.
00:45:13.767 --> 00:45:18.305
Except is isn't even in there. there's no ver.
00:45:18.305 --> 00:45:21.275
It's just yahweh, my shepherd.
00:45:21.275 --> 00:45:24.111
Because of this intimacy between david and the lord.
00:45:24.111 --> 00:45:28.916
And then he adds, lo zah,
00:45:28.916 --> 00:45:33.487
I won't lack anything i need,
00:45:33.487 --> 00:45:37.057
Because god will make me lie down
00:45:37.057 --> 00:45:40.894
In green, fresh, lush pastures, whether i want to or not.
00:45:40.894 --> 00:45:45.532
He will make
00:45:45.532 --> 00:45:46.533
Now that's what happens
00:45:46.533 --> 00:45:47.801
When the lord is our shepherd,
00:45:47.801 --> 00:45:49.670
When the lord is not our shepherd,
00:45:49.670 --> 00:45:51.839
And we chase after other gods, and we chase
00:45:51.839 --> 00:45:55.175
After the gods of ourselves, we get up to no good.
00:45:55.175 --> 00:45:59.947
And there are
00:46:00.314 --> 00:46:01.849
Truths for that for you and me, but there are truths
00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:04.918
For that in the lives we lead, because the sacred
00:46:04.918 --> 00:46:08.789
Is not simply going to church on sunday
00:46:08.789 --> 00:46:11.859
Or getting your news from tv.
00:46:11.859 --> 00:46:13.493
And the sacred includes
00:46:13.493 --> 00:46:15.295
Where you go to work, where you go to school,
00:46:15.295 --> 00:46:17.598
Where, who you hang out with, what you do in your spare time,
00:46:17.598 --> 00:46:21.034
What you do when you get on the internet.
00:46:21.034 --> 00:46:24.738
All of those are areas where god wants you
00:46:24.738 --> 00:46:27.774
To be driven by him as your shepherd,
00:46:27.774 --> 00:46:31.812
Letting him give you the lush, green pastures
00:46:31.812 --> 00:46:34.581
Instead of you being your own and you being a renegade.
00:46:34.581 --> 00:46:38.151
So what we had in this case was a company.
00:46:38.151 --> 00:46:41.288
Actually two companies that were not driven by the law.
00:46:41.288 --> 00:46:45.058
They were driven by a desire to make the most money
00:46:45.058 --> 00:46:47.928
They possibly could, and they fell into traps
00:46:47.928 --> 00:46:52.366
That were so wrong for people that hurt so many people.
00:46:52.366 --> 00:46:58.238
And and the key is that god
00:46:58.839 --> 00:47:01.742
Does not just sit in the heavens and laugh at what goes on.
00:47:01.742 --> 00:47:05.646
He takes an interest
00:47:05.646 --> 00:47:07.915
And he judgment starts with his people.
00:47:07.915 --> 00:47:11.218
The judgment will extend out.
00:47:11.218 --> 00:47:13.553
And so what we got to witness and what we got to be a part of,
00:47:13.553 --> 00:47:17.357
Is trying to bring some measure of god's justice
00:47:17.357 --> 00:47:20.227
And some measure of his light into the darkness that exists,
00:47:20.227 --> 00:47:24.932
That is able to capture the hearts
00:47:24.932 --> 00:47:28.669
And the minds of our children and do destructive things.
00:47:28.669 --> 00:47:33.340
And so our whole goal
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:35.375
And my closing argument on this is pretty simple.
00:47:35.375 --> 00:47:38.679
The companies operate off of what
00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:41.114
They call the attention economy.
00:47:41.114 --> 00:47:44.418
They make money, if you will spend time on their platform
00:47:44.418 --> 00:47:50.424
And they design the platform to engage you.
00:47:50.424 --> 00:47:54.294
Now, as as my good brother says, we adults
00:47:54.294 --> 00:47:58.365
Have ought to have enough sense to say, hey, here's
00:47:58.365 --> 00:48:01.568
A good time. now it's time to go to bed.
00:48:01.568 --> 00:48:03.637
But children and teenagers are still developing that
00:48:04.705 --> 00:48:08.442
Prefrontal cortex in their brain that gives them discipline.
00:48:08.442 --> 00:48:12.612
They don't have it yet.
00:48:12.612 --> 00:48:13.814
They're not able to see consequences yet.
00:48:13.814 --> 00:48:16.550
That simple anatomy, the companies knew it.
00:48:16.550 --> 00:48:20.120
And that's why these kids can get on their machines
00:48:20.120 --> 00:48:22.723
And they can scroll endlessly.
00:48:22.723 --> 00:48:24.658
And pretty soon it's
00:48:24.658 --> 00:48:25.692
3:00 in the morning and they've got to get up
00:48:25.692 --> 00:48:27.227
In three hours to get ready for school.
00:48:27.227 --> 00:48:29.429
And their brains just aren't in any shape to learn.
00:48:29.429 --> 00:48:32.566
They've lost out on that rem
00:48:32.566 --> 00:48:33.900
Sleep that they needed for their brains to grow.
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:36.970
And the companies exploited this.
00:48:37.738 --> 00:48:39.873
And people have been hurt by this.
00:48:39.873 --> 00:48:42.476
And we've got a generation that has traded their future
00:48:42.476 --> 00:48:46.913
For the profits of these multi-trillion dollar companies.
00:48:46.913 --> 00:48:52.119
And at some point, we who see this
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.922
Need to be guided into the truth of the law,
00:48:55.922 --> 00:48:58.892
To try to help shine his light
00:48:58.892 --> 00:49:00.894
And bring some measure of correction and justice.
00:49:00.894 --> 00:49:03.997
My witness.
00:49:04.331 --> 00:49:05.399
Mark, you're on the stand still.
00:49:05.399 --> 00:49:08.001
We have to agree on something.
00:49:08.001 --> 00:49:09.503
Social media is not inherently bad.
00:49:09.503 --> 00:49:12.205
Amen.
00:49:12.205 --> 00:49:12.906
Okay, so isn't.
00:49:12.906 --> 00:49:14.674
Doesn't facebook do this?
00:49:14.674 --> 00:49:16.243
This is kind of let's do this together
00:49:16.243 --> 00:49:18.578
That that so we're green that social media.
00:49:18.578 --> 00:49:21.214
Amen. but those systems they design.
00:49:21.214 --> 00:49:25.786
Amen.
00:49:26.019 --> 00:49:26.987
We'll see you next time.
00:49:26.987 --> 00:49:37.464
You see.
00:49:37.697 --> 00:49:37.697

Mark Lanier: Big Tech on Trial | Praise

March 29, 2026 | 49:44

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