Praise

Stephen Meyer: Return of the God Hypothesis | Praise

March 27, 2025 | 55:9

Tonight on Praise, Matt and Laurie Crouch sit down with Stephen Meyer to discuss his groundbreaking book, Return of the God Hypothesis. Together, they’ll explore the fascinating intersection of science, faith, and the divine, while touching on important topics of prophecy and the future.

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Praise | Stephen Meyer: Return of the God Hypothesis | Praise | March 27, 2025

Male announcer: coming up tonight on "praise."
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Stephen c. meyer: in a sense, we're arguing that science
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Should return to its judeo-christian roots and
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Realize that when we study nature, we're studying something
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That was created by god, designed by god, and to
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Understand that is to reveal his glory.
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♪♪♪
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Male announcer: tonight on "praise" from dallas, new york
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Times bestselling author and geophysicist, stephen meyer.
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And now your host matt and laurie crouch.
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Matt crouch: stephen meyer, what an experience to be with joe
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Rogan, where most of the time we had ever heard god mentioned on
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The number one podcast in the world,
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It was really in a negative light,
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It would have been being made fun of,
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Something's changing in our world.
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You were right in the middle of it for three hours.
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Tell us a little bit about your takeaway of being with joe rogan
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On that podcast.
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Stephen: it was a fantastic experience.
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He asked really probative questions.
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Some of the comments people thought he was being aggressive
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Or will hostile towards me.
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I didn't take it that way at all.
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It seemed like he was just very curious.
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I went on to talk about my work on the evidence for intelligent
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Design in life and in the universe.
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And we talked quite a bit about the scientific evidence for
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Intelligent design, the scientific evidence for god.
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But he also wanted to know about my personal religious
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Experience, my christian beliefs.
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He wanted to know why i was a christian.
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We got into discussing the historical reliability of
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The gospels.
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We talked about the resurrection.
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It was a wide ranging conversation.
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It went on--when i looked up when it was all
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Over, it was three hours and twenty minutes.
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So, it reminded me a little bit of kind of seminars when i was
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Teaching at the college level.
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He just--one question led to another, and so i enjoyed it
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Quite a lot and the time flew by.
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I thought, you know, three hours, that would be a long
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Time, but when we got done, i didn't realize how much time had
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Passed because the conversation was just so engaging.
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Matt: you know, it's an interesting thing, stephen.
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You're, you know, an academic, you know, phd level.
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And joe rogan is, you know, kind of a sports commentator turned
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Question asker, you know what i mean?
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So, it was kind of the way that your information from this, you
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Know, kind of academic world and the phd level was having to
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Translate or be lost in translation with the real world.
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And even, you know, remember, this is the number one podcast
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On earth, most of the time, okay?
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And so, that was a unique blend of, you know, look, we're at
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Least on the same side.
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We're talking about the return of the god hypothesis.
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This is stephen's latest book.
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We're gonna be getting into a lot of this, and we've
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Interviewed you before, but we're on the same team.
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That was a--that was supposed to be kind of a grilling.
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And something feels like it's changing in regard to, let's
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Call it the god movement kind of happening inside of a
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Secularized world.
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Are you seeing that happen?
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You certainly saw it happen that day.
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Stephen: yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, it was interesting after joe had me on, and he had on
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Matthew mcconaughey, the christian actor, he had on the
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Young man that wrote the song about the "rich men north of
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Richmond," i can't remember his name, but that young man did a
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Fantastic job sharing his faith.
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He was quoting joe rogan from the proverbs, and rogan at one
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Point said, "that's profound," you know?
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And he said, "yeah, it is."
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So, i think that certainly joe rogan has been exploring some of
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These topics, and the god question, if you will, but we're
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Seeing this in other places in the media.
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I had an interview last year, last summer with piers morgan.
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And it was about my book, "return of the god hypothesis,"
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But it turned out that piers morgan is a believing catholic
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And was very open to discussing the god question.
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I've been on an interview with tom holland and douglas murray,
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Two very prominent british, one of the prominent british author,
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The other an historian, both for quite a while were calling
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Themselves christian atheists and the idea of that--the
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Moniker was that whereas they couldn't either one quite get
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Themselves over the line to belief, they saw the importance
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And the value of christianity culturally.
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They lamented the loss of a christian foundation
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For culture.
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And so, you have these very prominent intellectuals,
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Scholars, professors, scientists in my world, and many people
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Beginning to investigate or discuss openly the
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Possibility that god is a reality.
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Matt: there was a clip that i saw.
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John lennox was interviewing richard dawkins, and he
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Challenged richard by saying, "i have studied every--virtually
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Every historic writer, and there are none that i have found that
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Says what you said, richard dawkins," famous atheist,
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Richard dawkins, "that jesus was a figment of
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Everybody's imagination.
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He wasn't a real person."
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And richard in this clip with john lennox said, "look, look,
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Look, i've backed away from that, you know, position.
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And he was a real person and--but there are a few people
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That wrote about it, and that he was not even a real person."
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And what is really happening is science, your field, your
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Intellectual field is kind of catching up with the bible.
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The bible has always been true, but science is trying to kind of
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Ignore faith and who and what we believe in.
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And it's turning out that they're more of the believers
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Than we are.
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So, it's easier to believe in an intelligent design creator than
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It is in this darwinian kind of evolution, which, by the way, on
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This broadcast, we wanna fully put the last nail in
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That coffin.
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Look to do that.
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But to your point, and this early point that we're making,
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It feels like there's a bunch of so--i wrote down a few of
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The names.
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Niall ferguson is kind of another historian.
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Stephen: well, yeah, this is--i have a colleague
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In britain, justin brierley, who's written a book called
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"the surprising rediscovery of belief in god."
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And he's analyzing this phenomenon somewhat culturally,
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Whereas i'm looking at it scientifically.
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I look at the scientific discoveries that have been made
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That seem to have very clear, what you might say, that have
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Clear theistic implications.
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They seem to point to a designing mind or intelligence
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Of some kind.
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Justin's been looking at it from the standpoint of just what's
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Going on culturally and noticing that many prominent
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Intellectuals, writers, scholars are rediscovering belief in god.
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And one interesting couple is ayaan hirsi ali
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And her husband, niall ferguson.
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Niall is a very well known british historian.
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Ayaan hirsi ali was one of the--she had a nominal muslim
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Background, was one of the sidekicks of richard dawkins in
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The early days of the new atheist movement in 2007, 8, 9,
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10 in that period of time.
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And she has become a christian, written now very openly about
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Her change of worldview and belief.
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And her husband, niall ferguson, apparently has also recently
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Been baptized.
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So, this is five years ago, i wrote a piece in the jerusalem
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Post talking about the new, new atheists, the old new atheists
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Were hostile and angry, and they were against christianity.
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The new new atheists, like at that time, niall ferguson, tom
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Holland, and others, douglas murray, were still atheists
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Or agnostics.
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They didn't believe personally yet, but they were lamenting the
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Loss of a christian foundation for culture.
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But now in 2025, some of those people have come full circle
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To faith.
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Some are not quite there yet, but it--so it's an interesting
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Phenomenon that's taking place.
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Matt: it'd be hard not to mention jordan peterson.
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Stephen: jordan peterson, what an extraordinary person.
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Matt: in this studio here, a number of times, and his journey
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Kind of from psychology towards what looks and feels to be, you
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Know, very close to, you know, kind of switching teams.
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Stephen: yeah, if he's not there yet, he's right at the at the
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Boundary between.
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Yeah, he, i mean, he discovered the psychological wisdom of the
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Bible reading the torah, the stories in genesis in particular
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Of the patriarchs.
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I think there are many people who have come to faith by
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Watching jordan peterson struggle with whether or not
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To believe.
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His new book is, i think, "one who wrestles with god," and he's
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Wrestling with god, but people find his, i think, his
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Something--they find something very authentic in the way he's
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Addressing these questions and it's, i think, opening many
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Minds to the possibility that god might,
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In fact, be a reality.
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Laurie crouch: tell--explain what you were just saying to me
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Back in the back room about tom holland and the christian--
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Stephen: right, right.
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For your audience who may not know tommy, he's a prominent
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British historian.
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He's written a book called "dominion" which is about the
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Importance of christianity to the development of
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Western culture.
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And tom was an historian of the ancient world.
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He was fascinated with, as he put it in a lecture i heard, he
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Was fascinated with the bad guys.
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He likes the assyrians and the persians and the greeks and
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The romans.
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And as he continued to study western history, gets to the
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Second and the third century and he realized something really
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Dramatic has changed.
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People are suddenly concerned with the poor and the
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Disenfranchised and the widows and the orphans.
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And he said, "you don't find that in the ancient world."
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He said, "the overriding single characteristic of ancient
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Cultures, especially ancient governments, was their
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Abject cruelty."
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You have the persians invent crucifixion, the romans
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Perfect it.
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It's a horrible thing.
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The opening chapter of "dominion" is by itself worth
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Buying the book, it's extraordinary.
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And he's describing the way the roman elite were so repulsed at
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Their own practice of crucifixion that they had to put
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It outside the city and pretend that it wasn't happening, but
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Yet they used it, and with vicious effect, in subjugating
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Any kind of uprising or rebellion.
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He said, "then you get to the early centuries of the christian
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Era and there's this concern for those who are left behind, who
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Are weak, who are powerless, who are victims."
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And he said, "now fast forward to the twentieth century and we
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Have, you know, we have conservative christians and we
00:11:36.685 --> 00:11:39.188
Have woke people and there's a culture war going on."
00:11:39.188 --> 00:11:41.557
He said, "but we're all swimming in christian waters."
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The people who are advocating the woke ideology, properly
00:11:45.895 --> 00:11:51.133
Sometimes called cultural marxism, are concerned
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With whom?
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Victims.
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And so, where do we get that concern?
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He says, "we get that from christianity."
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And so, he said, "you know, we have different views about
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Things, but we have to realize where these," he says human
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Rights is an exotic concept.
00:12:05.481 --> 00:12:07.917
You don't find that in the ancient world.
00:12:07.917 --> 00:12:09.485
It's something that only makes sense if you believe that human
00:12:09.485 --> 00:12:12.321
Beings are created in the image of god.
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Laurie: wow.
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Matt: well that was a pretty amazing kind of overview that
00:12:16.492 --> 00:12:22.331
What we're really talking about today, we wanna kind of bridge
00:12:22.331 --> 00:12:27.403
This gap between, stephen, science and the bible.
00:12:27.403 --> 00:12:33.309
And what we're talking about and what stephen and some of the tbn
00:12:33.309 --> 00:12:40.282
Staff prior to this broadcast today have been talking about is
00:12:40.282 --> 00:12:44.520
An entire series of productions, documentaries, let's say, that
00:12:44.520 --> 00:12:51.560
Kind of take this theme on.
00:12:51.560 --> 00:12:54.363
You know, there's a large theme of the rediscovery of god.
00:12:54.363 --> 00:12:58.934
There's a whole bunch of different themes that we're kind
00:12:58.934 --> 00:13:00.836
Of talking about and breaking these down.
00:13:00.836 --> 00:13:03.939
One of the things that i wanted to just make sure that we do on
00:13:03.939 --> 00:13:10.846
This broadcast is this darwinian evolution feels like it's
00:13:10.846 --> 00:13:16.518
Gasping and there is no real modern credible scientists that
00:13:16.518 --> 00:13:22.725
Are, you know, hanging their hat on that anymore.
00:13:22.725 --> 00:13:26.362
Give us an overview of where we stand, you know, we could open
00:13:26.362 --> 00:13:31.467
An old textbook and it's still there that was published, you
00:13:31.467 --> 00:13:35.471
Know, some--
00:13:35.471 --> 00:13:36.839
But it feels like that's largely going the way of the dodo bird.
00:13:36.839 --> 00:13:40.042
Stephen: yeah, well let me relate this to the god question
00:13:40.042 --> 00:13:42.411
That we've been talking about.
00:13:42.411 --> 00:13:43.746
Richard dawkins, who is perhaps the world's most prominent
00:13:43.746 --> 00:13:47.149
Advocate of what's called neo-darwinism, the modern
00:13:47.149 --> 00:13:51.186
Version of darwin's theory, has said that darwin made it
00:13:51.186 --> 00:13:53.889
Possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.
00:13:53.889 --> 00:13:56.892
Well, why is that?
00:13:56.892 --> 00:13:58.260
Well, prior to darwin, dawkins explains, one of the best
00:13:58.260 --> 00:14:01.563
Reasons we had for believing in god was the evident design that
00:14:01.563 --> 00:14:04.466
We see in the world around us.
00:14:04.466 --> 00:14:06.135
And darwin came along and attempted to explain the design
00:14:06.135 --> 00:14:09.104
Of living organisms by reference to an undirected, unguided
00:14:09.104 --> 00:14:12.441
Process that could mimic the powers of a designing
00:14:12.441 --> 00:14:16.211
Intelligence without itself being
00:14:16.211 --> 00:14:18.781
Guided or directed in any way.
00:14:18.781 --> 00:14:20.115
That was his famous process of natural selection.
00:14:20.115 --> 00:14:23.185
It was nature that was doing the selecting of all the different
00:14:23.185 --> 00:14:26.555
Variations and then selecting the ones that would survive and
00:14:26.555 --> 00:14:30.159
Be passed on.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:31.493
And therefore, it was doing the work of a designing intelligence
00:14:31.493 --> 00:14:34.697
Without being intelligent.
00:14:34.697 --> 00:14:36.131
And so, you get rid of the idea of a designing mind being
00:14:36.131 --> 00:14:39.368
Necessary to explain something like the eye or the vertebrate
00:14:39.368 --> 00:14:42.905
Limb or the human body and all the intricate organs we have.
00:14:42.905 --> 00:14:47.977
So, now fast forward 150, 60, 70 years, and we find that a
00:14:47.977 --> 00:14:53.682
Growing number of even evolutionary biologists, people
00:14:53.682 --> 00:14:58.153
Who are working in that subdiscipline of biology, are
00:14:58.153 --> 00:15:01.390
Telling us that the modern version of darwin's theory
00:15:01.390 --> 00:15:05.127
That's based on the idea of natural selection acting on
00:15:05.127 --> 00:15:07.529
Random mutations, that theory doesn't work anymore.
00:15:07.529 --> 00:15:10.566
The process of natural selection acting on random mutations lacks
00:15:10.566 --> 00:15:14.003
The creative power to generate the major changes that we see
00:15:14.003 --> 00:15:18.307
Happening in the history of life as documented in the
00:15:18.307 --> 00:15:20.142
Fossil record.
00:15:20.142 --> 00:15:21.510
Does a real nice job of explaining small scale
00:15:21.510 --> 00:15:23.779
Variation, darwin's famous galapagos finches and how their
00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:28.117
Beaks get a little smaller, a little bigger in response to
00:15:28.117 --> 00:15:30.519
Changing weather patterns, but it doesn't do a good job of
00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.756
Explaining where birds and other animals come from in the
00:15:33.756 --> 00:15:36.358
First place.
00:15:36.358 --> 00:15:37.726
And so, those large scale macroevolutionary innovations
00:15:37.726 --> 00:15:41.330
Are not well explained by darwin's mechanism or any other
00:15:41.330 --> 00:15:43.899
Evolutionary mechanism.
00:15:43.899 --> 00:15:45.467
And instead, when we see big new changes occur in the fossil
00:15:45.467 --> 00:15:49.004
Record, we know that you need a lot of new genetic and other
00:15:49.004 --> 00:15:53.108
Forms of information to build those forms of life.
00:15:53.108 --> 00:15:56.311
And what we know from our experience, our uniform and
00:15:56.311 --> 00:15:58.514
Repeated experience, which is the basis of all science, is
00:15:58.514 --> 00:16:02.418
That to generate information like the kind of information we
00:16:02.418 --> 00:16:05.721
Have in dna or the kind of information we have in a written
00:16:05.721 --> 00:16:08.891
Text or a hieroglyphic, that information always comes from
00:16:08.891 --> 00:16:11.894
A mind.
00:16:11.894 --> 00:16:13.228
So, when we see these big bursts of creativity in the fossil
00:16:13.228 --> 00:16:15.564
Record, we know there had to be a lot of new dna with a lot of
00:16:15.564 --> 00:16:18.233
New information.
00:16:18.233 --> 00:16:19.601
And that information in turn, points back to the need for
00:16:19.601 --> 00:16:22.905
A mind.
00:16:22.905 --> 00:16:24.239
And so, we're seeing evidence of what we call intelligent design
00:16:24.239 --> 00:16:26.575
In the history of life.
00:16:26.575 --> 00:16:27.910
Matt: i will confirm that i did actually graduate from the third
00:16:27.910 --> 00:16:33.549
Grade, okay?
00:16:33.549 --> 00:16:34.883
So, like talk to me like i'm a third grader.
00:16:34.883 --> 00:16:38.487
And let me ask you this one question, is--when darwin was
00:16:38.487 --> 00:16:42.191
Alive, so if you can go back.
00:16:42.191 --> 00:16:45.461
So, we're talking early 1800s.
00:16:45.461 --> 00:16:48.397
Stephen: a little later, 1859 is the publication of his
00:16:48.397 --> 00:16:51.100
Famous book.
00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:52.468
Matt: okay, so mid 1800s.
00:16:52.468 --> 00:16:54.336
What did science know about a cell, for instance, in
00:16:54.336 --> 00:16:59.842
That time?
00:16:59.842 --> 00:17:01.343
What would we--what was the maximum, what was the
00:17:01.343 --> 00:17:05.047
Breakthrough technology of knowing what the cell was.
00:17:05.047 --> 00:17:07.516
Stephen: we had microscopes by that time, but pretty much if
00:17:07.516 --> 00:17:10.986
You look through a microscope, you'd see an enclosure, a
00:17:10.986 --> 00:17:13.922
Boundary of the cell, and then some things going on inside
00:17:13.922 --> 00:17:19.094
There, but it's not real distinct.
00:17:19.094 --> 00:17:21.230
And so, in 1859, for example, darwin didn't know about the
00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:26.835
Miniature machines that we found at work inside cells.
00:17:26.835 --> 00:17:30.172
Matt: okay, he would have seen something.
00:17:30.172 --> 00:17:32.941
How big is a cell?
00:17:32.941 --> 00:17:34.309
Five microns?
00:17:34.309 --> 00:17:35.644
Something in that range?
00:17:35.644 --> 00:17:37.112
Stephen: i'd have to check.
00:17:37.112 --> 00:17:38.447
Matt: and so, he would have been looking at that, right?
00:17:38.447 --> 00:17:42.151
He would have seen--.
00:17:42.151 --> 00:17:43.485
Stephen: he or other scientists at the time would have had some
00:17:43.485 --> 00:17:45.354
Awareness that the cell was the smallest unit of life.
00:17:45.354 --> 00:17:48.123
Matt: and it's round, yes?
00:17:48.123 --> 00:17:49.458
Stephen: it's blobbish.
00:17:49.458 --> 00:17:50.792
Yes, round.
00:17:50.792 --> 00:17:52.161
Matt: roundish.
00:17:52.161 --> 00:17:53.495
He's looking at it and maybe getting to see
00:17:53.495 --> 00:17:55.998
Into it a touch--
00:17:55.998 --> 00:17:57.332
Stephen: a touch, let me give you a quote from one
00:17:57.332 --> 00:17:58.800
Of his close colleagues, thomas henry huxley.
00:17:58.800 --> 00:18:01.270
He said, "the cell is a simple, homogeneous, or homogeneous, a
00:18:01.270 --> 00:18:06.808
Globule of undifferentiated protoplasm."
00:18:06.808 --> 00:18:11.380
It's just a bunch of goo inside this enclosure.
00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:14.550
Okay, now we know that the cell is--contains a complex
00:18:14.550 --> 00:18:22.491
Information, storage, transmission, and
00:18:22.491 --> 00:18:24.860
Processing system.
00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:26.695
The storage of the information is in dna.
00:18:26.695 --> 00:18:28.897
The processing of the information takes place because
00:18:28.897 --> 00:18:31.266
Of sophisticated molecular machines, protein machines.
00:18:31.266 --> 00:18:36.004
And it--and the cell also contains all types of little
00:18:36.004 --> 00:18:39.942
Miniature machines, micro-molecular machines.
00:18:39.942 --> 00:18:42.945
So, it's a very sophisticated chemical factory that's run
00:18:42.945 --> 00:18:47.683
By information.
00:18:47.683 --> 00:18:49.284
And so, the origin of information becomes
00:18:49.284 --> 00:18:51.386
A really important question.
00:18:51.386 --> 00:18:52.721
If you want to explain the origin of life, you've got to
00:18:52.721 --> 00:18:55.023
Explain where did that information come from.
00:18:55.023 --> 00:18:57.392
Dna, most of us remember from high school or earlier--
00:18:57.392 --> 00:19:00.062
Matt: double helix--
00:19:00.062 --> 00:19:01.430
Stephen: double helix.
00:19:01.430 --> 00:19:02.764
Isn't just important because of the cool helical shape.
00:19:02.764 --> 00:19:05.033
It's important because along the spine of the double helix, there
00:19:05.033 --> 00:19:08.537
Are chemical subunits that are functioning just like alphabetic
00:19:08.537 --> 00:19:12.341
Characters in a written text or like the digital zeros and ones
00:19:12.341 --> 00:19:15.611
That we have in software.
00:19:15.611 --> 00:19:17.045
This was francis crick's great insight in 1958.
00:19:17.045 --> 00:19:19.848
He put forward something he called the sequence hypothesis,
00:19:19.848 --> 00:19:23.185
Which was the realization that dna is carrying information in a
00:19:23.185 --> 00:19:26.955
Digital or alphabetic form.
00:19:26.955 --> 00:19:28.890
And so, the question is, where does that information come from?
00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:32.261
And random mutations isn't a very good or persuasive
00:19:32.261 --> 00:19:36.131
Explanation for that.
00:19:36.131 --> 00:19:37.466
If you take a section of preexisting genetic text and you
00:19:37.466 --> 00:19:40.469
Start to randomly change the characters, you're going to
00:19:40.469 --> 00:19:43.505
Degrade the information in the dna long before you find another
00:19:43.505 --> 00:19:47.342
Piece of dna that will build something good.
00:19:47.342 --> 00:19:49.344
It's kind of like a computer program.
00:19:49.344 --> 00:19:51.213
If you take a section of computer program and you start
00:19:51.213 --> 00:19:54.216
Randomly changing the zeros and ones, you're not gonna get a new
00:19:54.216 --> 00:19:57.286
Operating system or a program, you're gonna destroy the
00:19:57.286 --> 00:20:01.523
Information that you had in the first place.
00:20:01.523 --> 00:20:03.225
So, randomly changing any informational system is going to
00:20:03.225 --> 00:20:07.062
Degrade that system before you get something new, and that
00:20:07.062 --> 00:20:09.798
Applies to the information in life.
00:20:09.798 --> 00:20:11.366
So, if you've got--if you're lucky enough to get a gene in
00:20:11.366 --> 00:20:13.335
The first place that has some code in it, it's really hard to
00:20:13.335 --> 00:20:17.072
Figure out how you're going to get from there to any new
00:20:17.072 --> 00:20:18.974
Section of code without destroying what you have.
00:20:18.974 --> 00:20:22.044
Matt: you elevated from third grade to about junior high or
00:20:22.044 --> 00:20:25.447
High school in your answer, but if there is a way to destroy
00:20:25.447 --> 00:20:32.354
Darwinian evolution with a short kind of paragraph, how would you
00:20:32.354 --> 00:20:41.797
Do it the easiest?
00:20:41.797 --> 00:20:43.131
Stephen: here would be the two things i'd emphasize.
00:20:43.131 --> 00:20:44.499
I did a little prager u video on this in five minutes, so people
00:20:44.499 --> 00:20:47.302
Will look it up online.
00:20:47.302 --> 00:20:48.670
The first i call the mystery of the missing fossils.
00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:51.840
That the major groups of organisms, the major groups of
00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:55.077
Animals in the fossil record appear abruptly.
00:20:55.077 --> 00:20:58.180
First, in one of the big events i wrote about in a book called
00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:01.183
"darwin's doubt" is called the cambrian explosion.
00:21:01.183 --> 00:21:03.618
But it's not the only such explosion.
00:21:03.618 --> 00:21:05.821
A paleontologist colleague of mine, sadly who's recently
00:21:05.821 --> 00:21:08.924
Deceased, gunther bechly, and i wrote an article about 19 major
00:21:08.924 --> 00:21:13.328
Fossil explosions in the history of life.
00:21:13.328 --> 00:21:15.097
Darwin's picture of the history of life is of a great branching
00:21:15.097 --> 00:21:17.866
Tree where all the--where you start with a simple one-celled
00:21:17.866 --> 00:21:21.002
Organism and then things morph and change very gradually to
00:21:21.002 --> 00:21:23.939
Form all the types of organisms we see on the planet today.
00:21:23.939 --> 00:21:28.110
But that's not what we see in the fossil record.
00:21:28.110 --> 00:21:30.278
We don't see a great branching tree where you have depicting
00:21:30.278 --> 00:21:33.348
Continuous biological change.
00:21:33.348 --> 00:21:35.350
You see the abrupt appearance of major groups
00:21:35.350 --> 00:21:38.053
Disconnected from anything else.
00:21:38.053 --> 00:21:39.388
So, there's discontinuity is the dominant feature of the
00:21:39.388 --> 00:21:42.624
Fossil record.
00:21:42.624 --> 00:21:43.959
That's the mystery of the missing fossils.
00:21:43.959 --> 00:21:45.627
The other mystery is how do you build an animal?
00:21:45.627 --> 00:21:48.830
And what we now know is that you can't build new forms of life,
00:21:48.830 --> 00:21:53.168
New biological form without new biological information.
00:21:53.168 --> 00:21:57.773
You need the code to tell--
00:21:57.773 --> 00:22:01.343
Matt: the cat to be a cat.
00:22:01.343 --> 00:22:02.778
Stephen: tell the cat to be the cat, okay?
00:22:02.778 --> 00:22:04.713
So, you got the dna builds proteins, the proteins have to
00:22:04.713 --> 00:22:07.616
Be organized into different cell types, the cell types into
00:22:07.616 --> 00:22:10.252
Organs and tissues, and ultimately body plans.
00:22:10.252 --> 00:22:13.355
So, you've got to have information.
00:22:13.355 --> 00:22:15.924
But the darwinian explanation of the origin of information is
00:22:15.924 --> 00:22:20.796
Unpersuasive, and there's a whole lot of reasons for that.
00:22:20.796 --> 00:22:23.298
It's extremely improbable.
00:22:23.298 --> 00:22:24.833
But if you just think of the analogy i gave a minute ago of
00:22:24.833 --> 00:22:27.102
The taking a section of computer code and then randomly changing
00:22:27.102 --> 00:22:30.639
The zeros and ones, ask yourself, are you going to
00:22:30.639 --> 00:22:33.041
Generate new code or are you going to destroy what
00:22:33.041 --> 00:22:35.544
You've got?
00:22:35.544 --> 00:22:36.912
And whenever i ask that a large group of, you know, a large
00:22:36.912 --> 00:22:39.314
Audience, and there're computer programmers,
00:22:39.314 --> 00:22:40.649
They always start laughing.
00:22:40.649 --> 00:22:41.983
They know the answer.
00:22:41.983 --> 00:22:43.318
So, the origin of information has turned out to be a hugely
00:22:43.318 --> 00:22:47.155
Difficult problem for both biological evolutionary
00:22:47.155 --> 00:22:51.393
Explanations of the origin of new life and the explanations
00:22:51.393 --> 00:22:55.363
For the origin of the first life.
00:22:55.363 --> 00:22:56.998
But we do know of a cause that produces information, and that's
00:22:56.998 --> 00:23:00.635
A mind.
00:23:00.635 --> 00:23:02.003
Whenever we see information, whether it's in a
00:23:02.003 --> 00:23:04.606
Computer--section of computer code or a section a paragraph in
00:23:04.606 --> 00:23:08.443
A book or a hieroglyphic inscription or information
00:23:08.443 --> 00:23:12.481
Embedded over a radio or a television signal, that
00:23:12.481 --> 00:23:15.317
Information ultimately always comes from a mind.
00:23:15.317 --> 00:23:17.452
So, the discovery of information at the foundation of life in
00:23:17.452 --> 00:23:21.790
Even the simplest cells points to the activity of a designing
00:23:21.790 --> 00:23:25.994
Mind, a master programmer.
00:23:25.994 --> 00:23:27.662
And that's the big--that i think is the biggest discovery of late
00:23:27.662 --> 00:23:30.398
Twentieth century science.
00:23:30.398 --> 00:23:31.733
Matt: you called it unpersuasive.
00:23:31.733 --> 00:23:33.935
That his argument of the base of a tree going out
00:23:33.935 --> 00:23:37.739
Is unpersuasive.
00:23:37.739 --> 00:23:39.074
Does that mean you think it's b.s.?
00:23:39.074 --> 00:23:41.676
Stephen: it's been tested and found wanting, we can say, yeah.
00:23:41.676 --> 00:23:49.084
Matt: i'm just trying to break it down.
00:23:49.084 --> 00:23:50.452
Stephen: break it down.
00:23:50.452 --> 00:23:52.354
Let me tell you a story to underscore.
00:23:52.354 --> 00:23:55.223
2016, there's a major conference convened in london, not just by
00:23:55.223 --> 00:23:59.794
Scientists, not just by biologists, but by evolutionary
00:23:59.794 --> 00:24:03.632
Biologists, people who are working in the field that want
00:24:03.632 --> 00:24:07.269
To know how did life arise, how did one form of life arise from
00:24:07.269 --> 00:24:10.505
A simpler pre-existing form.
00:24:10.505 --> 00:24:12.774
And they convened this conference because they are
00:24:12.774 --> 00:24:15.677
Almost to a person completely dissatisfied with the standard
00:24:15.677 --> 00:24:18.914
Textbook theory of modern darwinism, sometimes
00:24:18.914 --> 00:24:22.417
Called neo-darwinism.
00:24:22.417 --> 00:24:23.785
And so, the conference is called to explore other evolutionary
00:24:23.785 --> 00:24:28.023
Ideas, other mechanisms besides natural selection that might be
00:24:28.023 --> 00:24:31.092
Able to explain the origin of fundamentally new forms of life.
00:24:31.092 --> 00:24:35.564
One of the conveners of the conference after it was all
00:24:35.564 --> 00:24:37.666
Over, characterized the conference as--she characterized
00:24:37.666 --> 00:24:41.736
It for its lack of momentousness.
00:24:41.736 --> 00:24:43.939
In effect, she said we did a good job of explaining the
00:24:43.939 --> 00:24:47.442
Problems, of highlighting the problems, but we didn't come up
00:24:47.442 --> 00:24:50.345
With any real fundamental solutions.
00:24:50.345 --> 00:24:52.781
And so, i think people who are--there's still plenty of
00:24:52.781 --> 00:24:55.116
People who will give lip service to neo-darwinism or to some
00:24:55.116 --> 00:25:00.288
Secular materialistic evolutionary theory within
00:25:00.288 --> 00:25:04.125
University departments, but when you look at the technical
00:25:04.125 --> 00:25:07.062
Literature in the field, you see more and more people expressing
00:25:07.062 --> 00:25:10.565
Doubts, more and more problems are accumulating without
00:25:10.565 --> 00:25:14.302
Finding solutions.
00:25:14.302 --> 00:25:15.804
And as we make our alternative case for intelligent design,
00:25:15.804 --> 00:25:20.175
We're attracting more and more young talent because people
00:25:20.175 --> 00:25:22.844
Realize this is a better way to look at life.
00:25:22.844 --> 00:25:25.313
It's a designed system.
00:25:25.313 --> 00:25:27.215
It has all the features of a designed system.
00:25:27.215 --> 00:25:29.017
Laurie: so, it sounds like that might just fade away.
00:25:29.017 --> 00:25:31.119
Stephen: it's beginning to fade away.
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:32.454
Laurie: to never be spoken of again.
00:25:32.454 --> 00:25:33.822
Stephen: i would say we're attracting more young talent
00:25:33.822 --> 00:25:35.357
Than they are, and that's how scientific revolutions
00:25:35.357 --> 00:25:37.659
Take place.
00:25:37.659 --> 00:25:39.094
Matt: we are sitting with stephen meyer.
00:25:39.094 --> 00:25:42.664
Stephen meyer's book is, "return of the god hypothesis."
00:25:42.664 --> 00:25:47.669
We've sat with you before, we've discussed this book, but it
00:25:47.669 --> 00:25:52.540
Feels like there is a wind in
00:25:52.540 --> 00:25:57.345
The sails of this kind of, you
00:25:57.345 --> 00:26:02.851
Know, science, you know, that we are really making it
00:26:02.851 --> 00:26:08.089
Very difficult.
00:26:08.089 --> 00:26:10.558
That some theory of evolution created in the mid-1800s when
00:26:10.558 --> 00:26:17.065
Scientists thought the human cell, say the quote again.
00:26:17.065 --> 00:26:21.436
Stephen: "homogeneous glob of undifferentiated protoplasm,"
00:26:21.436 --> 00:26:27.108
Jello, goo.
00:26:27.108 --> 00:26:28.476
Laurie: goo, that's my word.
00:26:28.476 --> 00:26:30.812
Matt: that is so awesome.
00:26:30.812 --> 00:26:32.147
Laurie: just goo.
00:26:32.147 --> 00:26:33.915
Matt: say it one more time.
00:26:33.915 --> 00:26:35.250
It's my favorite new phrase.
00:26:35.250 --> 00:26:36.618
Stephen: "the cell is a homogeneous glob of
00:26:36.618 --> 00:26:39.087
Undifferentiated protoplasm," said thomas henry huxley, 1869,
00:26:39.087 --> 00:26:43.892
Something like that, yeah.
00:26:43.892 --> 00:26:45.226
Matt: my goodness.
00:26:45.226 --> 00:26:46.594
Three scientific discoveries that reveal the mind behind
00:26:46.594 --> 00:26:50.999
The universe.
00:26:50.999 --> 00:26:52.333
This is becoming kind of the gold standard.
00:26:52.333 --> 00:26:55.837
We encourage you to get this.
00:26:55.837 --> 00:26:57.205
Stephen and tbn are--we're gonna be working on quite a bit of
00:26:57.205 --> 00:27:03.044
Content in regard to this, and we're excited about it, okay.
00:27:03.044 --> 00:27:09.417
Stephen: matt, can i mention why on that subject we have--we
00:27:09.417 --> 00:27:12.754
Already have a new documentary coming out called "the story of
00:27:12.754 --> 00:27:15.423
Everything" that's based on the story i tell in the book of
00:27:15.423 --> 00:27:19.227
Three major discoveries that scientists have made in the last
00:27:19.227 --> 00:27:22.664
Century that have clear god-friendly implications.
00:27:22.664 --> 00:27:27.268
The first of those discoveries is the idea that the universe
00:27:27.268 --> 00:27:30.605
Had a beginning, the realization that the universe had a
00:27:30.605 --> 00:27:33.108
Beginning, that there was a creation event.
00:27:33.108 --> 00:27:34.876
The second is that from the beginning, the laws of physics
00:27:34.876 --> 00:27:38.413
Have been what they--what physicists say, "they've been
00:27:38.413 --> 00:27:40.782
Fine tuned to allow for life."
00:27:40.782 --> 00:27:42.817
They--we now characterize our universe as a goldilocks
00:27:42.817 --> 00:27:45.787
Universe where everything is just right to result in in life,
00:27:45.787 --> 00:27:48.923
Indeed intelligent life.
00:27:48.923 --> 00:27:50.325
And the third is the one we've been talking about, that inside
00:27:50.325 --> 00:27:52.627
The cell, we find this exquisite realm of digital nanotechnology
00:27:52.627 --> 00:27:57.499
Suggesting a master programmer, master engineer behind even the
00:27:57.499 --> 00:28:00.869
Simplest living cell.
00:28:00.869 --> 00:28:02.237
We're telling that story in a new film called
00:28:02.237 --> 00:28:03.805
"story of everything."
00:28:03.805 --> 00:28:05.140
It should be out later in theaters this year.
00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:07.709
Matt: and we have a short clip.
00:28:07.709 --> 00:28:10.211
Watch this.
00:28:10.211 --> 00:28:12.747
Male: how likely is it that this panorama that appears to me
00:28:12.747 --> 00:28:18.186
Every time i open my eyes does not have some very good reason
00:28:18.186 --> 00:28:24.159
For its existence?
00:28:24.159 --> 00:28:26.694
Male: so, we have two great competing stories about reality.
00:28:26.694 --> 00:28:30.064
One posits a purposeful creator behind the universe.
00:28:30.064 --> 00:28:32.834
The other envisions mindless processes producing everything
00:28:32.834 --> 00:28:35.904
We see.
00:28:35.904 --> 00:28:39.908
But which of these stories is true?
00:28:39.908 --> 00:28:43.444
What explains all of this?
00:28:43.444 --> 00:28:48.616
What's the story of everything?
00:28:48.616 --> 00:28:53.988
Matt: "story of everything," we'll be keeping you up to date
00:28:53.988 --> 00:28:58.159
On where and how you can see that project, and it is in
00:28:58.159 --> 00:29:03.932
Conjunction with stephen meyer and the entire crew that you
00:29:03.932 --> 00:29:10.505
Work with.
00:29:10.505 --> 00:29:11.873
Mention the name of your entire society up there on the
00:29:11.873 --> 00:29:14.676
West coast.
00:29:14.676 --> 00:29:16.010
Stephen: we have an institute called the discovery institute
00:29:16.010 --> 00:29:18.146
And a program called the center for science and culture that
00:29:18.146 --> 00:29:21.316
Has about 50 different scientific research fellows, and
00:29:21.316 --> 00:29:25.653
Those fellows are in turn connected with a very large
00:29:25.653 --> 00:29:28.089
Network of scientists around the world who are now thinking about
00:29:28.089 --> 00:29:31.626
Science in a more theistic framework, which is a return to
00:29:31.626 --> 00:29:35.430
The early way science was done with figures like johannes
00:29:35.430 --> 00:29:38.499
Kepler and robert boyle and sir isaac newton.
00:29:38.499 --> 00:29:41.336
So, in a sense, we're arguing that science should return to
00:29:41.336 --> 00:29:44.539
Its judeo-christian roots and realize that when we study
00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:47.909
Nature, we're studying something that was created by god,
00:29:47.909 --> 00:29:52.013
Designed by god.
00:29:52.013 --> 00:29:53.348
And to understand that is to reveal his glory.
00:29:53.348 --> 00:29:57.018
Laurie: so, okay. so, break it down.
00:29:57.018 --> 00:29:59.153
Why does all of this science matter to just the people that
00:29:59.153 --> 00:30:03.391
Probably feel, some like me, just ordinary folks?
00:30:03.391 --> 00:30:07.629
Why does all of this matter?
00:30:07.629 --> 00:30:09.297
Stephen: well, it's a great question.
00:30:09.297 --> 00:30:11.032
Science has played surprisingly an outsized role in the
00:30:11.032 --> 00:30:14.936
Formation of what you might call the dominant worldview of
00:30:14.936 --> 00:30:19.274
The culture.
00:30:19.274 --> 00:30:20.608
And in the early days of science, in a period called the
00:30:20.608 --> 00:30:23.945
Scientific revolution in the 16th, 17th century, scientists
00:30:23.945 --> 00:30:28.082
Were doing science for explicitly christian reasons.
00:30:28.082 --> 00:30:31.419
They believed that nature was made by god, that it was
00:30:31.419 --> 00:30:35.089
Intelligible to us because there was a rational order there that
00:30:35.089 --> 00:30:38.059
We could understand because god made our minds in his image.
00:30:38.059 --> 00:30:41.863
And so, he endowed nature with rationality and design, and
00:30:41.863 --> 00:30:45.133
Because he designed our minds to think the way he thought, we
00:30:45.133 --> 00:30:48.469
Could understand it.
00:30:48.469 --> 00:30:50.705
Fast forward to the 19th century, you get theories like
00:30:50.705 --> 00:30:53.207
Darwin's theory of evolution, you get marxism in economics,
00:30:53.207 --> 00:30:58.112
You get in early 20th century, freudian psychology.
00:30:58.112 --> 00:31:01.916
And you have these great secular thinkers who are now answering
00:31:01.916 --> 00:31:05.053
These fundamental religious or worldview questions.
00:31:05.053 --> 00:31:07.722
Darwin tells us where we came from.
00:31:07.722 --> 00:31:09.624
Marx has a utopian vision of the future.
00:31:09.624 --> 00:31:11.592
He has a kind of eschatology.
00:31:11.592 --> 00:31:13.895
And freud tells us what to do about our guilt, what to do
00:31:13.895 --> 00:31:16.197
About the human condition.
00:31:16.197 --> 00:31:17.532
And between these three and other major secular figures,
00:31:17.532 --> 00:31:21.369
They answer the major worldview questions that previously had
00:31:21.369 --> 00:31:24.639
Been asked and answered within the judeo-christian tradition,
00:31:24.639 --> 00:31:29.344
Creation, fall, redemption.
00:31:29.344 --> 00:31:31.846
And so, you get a new worldview that arises ostensibly on the
00:31:31.846 --> 00:31:35.483
Basis of science in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
00:31:35.483 --> 00:31:38.987
And we've had that kind of--that's been the dominant
00:31:38.987 --> 00:31:41.556
Worldview for most of the ensuing 100 years or so,
00:31:41.556 --> 00:31:45.426
Especially among elite academics, scientists,
00:31:45.426 --> 00:31:48.296
Intellectuals, writers.
00:31:48.296 --> 00:31:50.031
And that worldview is percolated in the culture.
00:31:50.031 --> 00:31:53.101
So, over the last 20 years or so, as people like the pew
00:31:53.101 --> 00:31:57.505
Foundation have polled people in the united states,
00:31:57.505 --> 00:32:00.208
They've found there's been a precipitous drop in belief in
00:32:00.208 --> 00:32:03.211
God among ordinary people because the elite intellectuals
00:32:03.211 --> 00:32:09.150
Have been telling us it's not credible.
00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:10.918
We did some polling in 2018 of young people between 18 and 30
00:32:10.918 --> 00:32:15.757
And asked them, "well, what are the main reasons that you would
00:32:15.757 --> 00:32:18.559
Not consider or no longer believe in god?"
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.264
And the top reason was no evidence or no scientific
00:32:23.264 --> 00:32:26.501
Evidence for god.
00:32:26.501 --> 00:32:27.869
The second reason stated was theories of evolution.
00:32:27.869 --> 00:32:31.005
A distant third was the idea of pain and suffering in the world.
00:32:31.005 --> 00:32:35.276
So, you got a picture of people who maybe recently had come out
00:32:35.276 --> 00:32:38.813
Of university.
00:32:38.813 --> 00:32:40.181
They've been exposed to secular professors who had adopted this
00:32:40.181 --> 00:32:44.652
Scientific atheistic, or scientific
00:32:44.652 --> 00:32:47.155
Materialist worldview.
00:32:47.155 --> 00:32:48.589
So, that worldview had caused them to lose faith in god, and
00:32:48.589 --> 00:32:52.326
That has all kinds of downstream consequences, one of which is, i
00:32:52.326 --> 00:32:55.897
Think, because i experienced this myself as a young person, a
00:32:55.897 --> 00:33:00.034
Kind of bleak view of reality, a kind of if we are the product of
00:33:00.034 --> 00:33:04.572
Purely impersonal forces and if eventually the universe is going
00:33:04.572 --> 00:33:07.775
To experience a heat death, then eventually there will be no
00:33:07.775 --> 00:33:11.646
People left--
00:33:11.646 --> 00:33:13.014
Laurie: hopelessness.
00:33:13.014 --> 00:33:14.348
Stephen: hopelessness.
00:33:14.348 --> 00:33:15.683
In other words, an impersonal universe.
00:33:15.683 --> 00:33:17.151
But nothing can mean anything to a rock or to an atom or
00:33:17.151 --> 00:33:21.456
A molecule.
00:33:21.456 --> 00:33:22.790
Things only mean things to people, to persons.
00:33:22.790 --> 00:33:25.893
So, if there isn't a personal reference point, if there's not
00:33:25.893 --> 00:33:29.430
A person that will--who created us in the first place and a
00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:35.603
Person who will be here after we die, there's no possibility of
00:33:35.603 --> 00:33:38.606
Ultimate meaning.
00:33:38.606 --> 00:33:39.941
And i think young people have sensed that.
00:33:39.941 --> 00:33:41.776
There's a recent harvard study that says--that shows that 36%
00:33:41.776 --> 00:33:45.947
Of young people who are experiencing anxiety and
00:33:45.947 --> 00:33:48.349
Depression report that they have persistent doubts about whether
00:33:48.349 --> 00:33:52.019
Or not their lives have any meaning or purpose.
00:33:52.019 --> 00:33:55.123
So, i think a lot of what we call anxiety and depression is
00:33:55.123 --> 00:33:58.493
Really a metaphysical anxiety.
00:33:58.493 --> 00:34:00.061
We're wondering if there's any reason for me to be here, if
00:34:00.061 --> 00:34:02.930
Anyone cares, if there's any hope of an afterlife, those
00:34:02.930 --> 00:34:05.833
Sorts of questions.
00:34:05.833 --> 00:34:07.201
Matt: so, if we go to splitting the atom, you know, in the '40s,
00:34:07.201 --> 00:34:13.941
We map dna in the '90s--
00:34:13.941 --> 00:34:15.510
Stephen: elucidate the--well we elucidate the structure, watson
00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:18.446
And crick in 1953.
00:34:18.446 --> 00:34:20.414
And then in '58, they realize that the structure is also
00:34:20.414 --> 00:34:23.651
Containing a code.
00:34:23.651 --> 00:34:24.986
It's containing digital information.
00:34:24.986 --> 00:34:26.354
Matt: so, that was a big aha moment,
00:34:26.354 --> 00:34:28.322
We map dna.
00:34:28.322 --> 00:34:30.525
And so, those are really, from science standpoints, kind of the
00:34:30.525 --> 00:34:36.197
Three biggies, you know, as it were, that relate to at least
00:34:36.197 --> 00:34:40.801
The discussion we're having.
00:34:40.801 --> 00:34:42.904
And so, if the scientists were really on top of their game, and
00:34:42.904 --> 00:34:50.645
They, you know, they were the person of the year, you know,
00:34:50.645 --> 00:34:54.348
From time magazine, and they were on the cover of all the
00:34:54.348 --> 00:34:57.718
Magazines as winning, where do you put the lowest dip in
00:34:57.718 --> 00:35:04.859
Intelligent design being laughed at.
00:35:04.859 --> 00:35:07.662
When was that? when was it the worst?
00:35:07.662 --> 00:35:09.997
Stephen: well there's always a lag time, matt, between the
00:35:09.997 --> 00:35:13.067
Discoveries and people realizing their full implications.
00:35:13.067 --> 00:35:16.771
So, i would say the late '50s you have this--it's ironic
00:35:16.771 --> 00:35:20.208
Because some of the key discoveries are being made in
00:35:20.208 --> 00:35:22.677
The '50s, particularly about the complexity of the cell and the
00:35:22.677 --> 00:35:26.847
Information bearing properties of dna.
00:35:26.847 --> 00:35:28.649
But in 18--or 1959, you have this kind of triumphant
00:35:28.649 --> 00:35:33.221
Scientific materialism.
00:35:33.221 --> 00:35:34.922
And i think since then, as it's not just what we're discovering
00:35:34.922 --> 00:35:38.392
About life, it's also what we're discovering about the universe.
00:35:38.392 --> 00:35:40.795
The realization that the universe had a
00:35:40.795 --> 00:35:42.697
Definite beginning.
00:35:42.697 --> 00:35:44.031
That before the beginning of the universe.
00:35:44.031 --> 00:35:46.100
Well, how do you talk about the beginning of the universe.
00:35:46.100 --> 00:35:48.769
What happened before the beginning of the universe when
00:35:48.769 --> 00:35:50.771
What happens at the beginning is the beginning of time, space,
00:35:50.771 --> 00:35:54.141
Matter, and energy.
00:35:54.141 --> 00:35:55.476
There's evidence for a creation event.
00:35:55.476 --> 00:35:58.012
Matt: big bang.
00:35:58.012 --> 00:35:59.347
Stephen: the big bang and the whole story of its confirmation.
00:35:59.347 --> 00:36:01.916
Matt: you know what's crazy to sit here for me to think about?
00:36:01.916 --> 00:36:04.318
This is just the way my brain works.
00:36:04.318 --> 00:36:06.287
I'm sitting here thinking, at the same time, we creatives are
00:36:06.287 --> 00:36:11.692
Making "leave it to beaver" and creating characters like eddie
00:36:11.692 --> 00:36:16.297
Haskell, "you look lovely today, mrs. cleaver," you know?
00:36:16.297 --> 00:36:20.034
The scientific community is destroying the bible.
00:36:20.034 --> 00:36:23.371
Stephen: you have to distinguish between the scientific
00:36:23.371 --> 00:36:26.340
Discoveries, what the actual evidence is saying--
00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:28.409
Matt: and the implications.
00:36:28.409 --> 00:36:29.777
Stephen: and the ideology of scientists, which has continued
00:36:29.777 --> 00:36:32.213
In many ways up to the present, but this is some of the story of
00:36:32.213 --> 00:36:35.316
Where we are is you had this very prominent movement called
00:36:35.316 --> 00:36:38.619
The new atheists, circuit 2007 right up to about 2015, '16 with
00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:45.326
Books like "the god delusion" by richard dawkins, "universe from
00:36:45.326 --> 00:36:48.829
Nothing" by lawrence krauss.
00:36:48.829 --> 00:36:50.631
And i think that's part of the story where we are.
00:36:50.631 --> 00:36:53.434
That those arguments, i think, now are spent for us.
00:36:53.434 --> 00:36:56.904
And they're spent for largely because those scientists didn't
00:36:56.904 --> 00:37:00.975
Engage the discoveries that i've been talking about and other
00:37:00.975 --> 00:37:04.278
Scientists have been talking about, the discovery that the
00:37:04.278 --> 00:37:07.715
Universe had a beginning, the problem of the fine tuning of
00:37:07.715 --> 00:37:10.518
The universe.
00:37:10.518 --> 00:37:12.219
One way to illustrate that is that the scientists we're
00:37:12.219 --> 00:37:14.789
Talking about are living in a goldilocks universe.
00:37:14.789 --> 00:37:16.824
You have all these fundamental parameters of physics, the
00:37:16.824 --> 00:37:19.960
Strength of gravity, the strength of the force that's
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:23.431
Causing the expansion of the universe, the masses of the
00:37:23.431 --> 00:37:27.234
Elementary particles, they all fall within these narrow ranges
00:37:27.234 --> 00:37:31.038
Outside of which life would be completely impossible.
00:37:31.038 --> 00:37:34.475
And the odds of getting all these parameters just right are
00:37:34.475 --> 00:37:37.945
Almost incalculable.
00:37:37.945 --> 00:37:39.313
They're so--the odds are so small.
00:37:39.313 --> 00:37:41.015
And so, one of the leading scientific atheists of that
00:37:41.015 --> 00:37:43.918
Period of the 1950s, fred hoyle, who was--who made fun of the big
00:37:43.918 --> 00:37:50.458
Bang theory because he thought it pointed to a creation event
00:37:50.458 --> 00:37:52.993
And therefore to god, ends up coming to faith--or coming to
00:37:52.993 --> 00:37:57.131
Believe in god himself because he discovers this fine tuning
00:37:57.131 --> 00:38:00.534
Evidence and he says that--his quote is that he says that, "the
00:38:00.534 --> 00:38:04.872
Best data we have suggests that is a super intellect monkeyed
00:38:04.872 --> 00:38:09.043
With physics to make life possible."
00:38:09.043 --> 00:38:11.512
So, you have this kind of intellectual shift.
00:38:11.512 --> 00:38:13.547
So, there's always kind of a lag time between the discoveries and
00:38:13.547 --> 00:38:16.817
The realization of their full import and then the effect that
00:38:16.817 --> 00:38:21.622
It has on culture.
00:38:21.622 --> 00:38:22.990
So, in the 1950s, culturally, we're still living on the fumes
00:38:22.990 --> 00:38:26.827
Of, we have a--we're we're living on a christian memory.
00:38:26.827 --> 00:38:30.030
And what's happening now, i think, is that we're laying the
00:38:30.030 --> 00:38:32.566
Foundation for a renewal of that theistic judeo-christian
00:38:32.566 --> 00:38:36.370
Perspective because the scientific evidence is there for
00:38:36.370 --> 00:38:40.174
The reality of a creator.
00:38:40.174 --> 00:38:41.509
The philosophical arguments are very strong in supporting
00:38:41.509 --> 00:38:45.246
That conclusion.
00:38:45.246 --> 00:38:46.580
Matt: and they are all in this book.
00:38:46.580 --> 00:38:47.948
And by the way, when you said spent force, that equates to
00:38:47.948 --> 00:38:50.985
B.s., right?
00:38:50.985 --> 00:38:52.386
Stephen: if you say, yeah.
00:38:52.386 --> 00:38:53.754
Matt: so, "return of the god hypothesis."
00:38:53.754 --> 00:38:58.893
Stephen, thank you for being with us.
00:38:58.893 --> 00:39:02.630
I wanna give you kind of the final word and the "return of
00:39:02.630 --> 00:39:06.934
The god hypothesis," you kind of go over our heads a lot, okay?
00:39:06.934 --> 00:39:11.338
Or mine anyway.
00:39:11.338 --> 00:39:12.907
But thank you because you do take your time in this, and you
00:39:12.907 --> 00:39:18.512
Start making these things.
00:39:18.512 --> 00:39:19.847
And what i call stephen water cooler moments.
00:39:19.847 --> 00:39:24.118
I can actually remember some of these points that you make and i
00:39:24.118 --> 00:39:29.857
Can actually tell somebody else about it.
00:39:29.857 --> 00:39:31.625
So, that's the good part. that this is--
00:39:31.625 --> 00:39:33.694
Stephen: i was fortunate to have the experience of teaching
00:39:33.694 --> 00:39:36.730
Freshmen for 12 years.
00:39:36.730 --> 00:39:38.966
And so, i would stand on my head.
00:39:38.966 --> 00:39:40.868
I'd do gags in class.
00:39:40.868 --> 00:39:42.236
I'd use visual aids.
00:39:42.236 --> 00:39:43.571
I'd steal my kids's toys to make a point.
00:39:43.571 --> 00:39:46.674
And so, i tried to bring a lot of that into the book too.
00:39:46.674 --> 00:39:50.211
I do two things.
00:39:50.211 --> 00:39:51.579
I try to explain the science very, you know, methodically and
00:39:51.579 --> 00:39:55.583
Slowly so that anyone can understand, but there's also a
00:39:55.583 --> 00:39:59.086
Great story here.
00:39:59.086 --> 00:40:00.454
And it is the story of the rediscovery of god.
00:40:00.454 --> 00:40:02.790
It was kind of a rise, fall, rise plot structure in that
00:40:02.790 --> 00:40:06.093
Sciences arose in a in a judeo-christian milieu for
00:40:06.093 --> 00:40:08.929
Christian reasons in the 16th, 17th century.
00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:12.066
We lost that framework in the 19th century.
00:40:12.066 --> 00:40:14.768
We lost the thread, but it's coming back, and it's
00:40:14.768 --> 00:40:17.738
Coming back because--
00:40:17.738 --> 00:40:19.907
Matt: god says so.
00:40:19.907 --> 00:40:21.742
Stephen: because the universe has talked back and it's
00:40:21.742 --> 00:40:24.678
Provided compelling evidence for the reality of its creator.
00:40:24.678 --> 00:40:28.415
Matt: okay, so this is basically the new version of that.
00:40:28.415 --> 00:40:32.887
And what i--my point that i made that you understood is that you
00:40:32.887 --> 00:40:38.125
Take your time here, and that's good because it feels like when
00:40:38.125 --> 00:40:42.997
We're--we only have a "praise" program to do, we both
00:40:42.997 --> 00:40:46.700
Talk fast, we'd like to go through and get
00:40:46.700 --> 00:40:48.836
Past it and get a lot of information in, but this is the
00:40:48.836 --> 00:40:52.006
Thing to get and send to your teenagers,
00:40:52.006 --> 00:40:55.543
Your school-age children.
00:40:55.543 --> 00:40:57.778
This was meant to be understood, and thank you for that.
00:40:57.778 --> 00:41:01.415
Stephen: that's what i was trying to say a minute ago is i
00:41:01.415 --> 00:41:03.551
Took my time to teach the science that you need to
00:41:03.551 --> 00:41:06.120
Understand the argument as you go.
00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:08.188
So, you shouldn't be terrified by a book that discusses
00:41:08.188 --> 00:41:11.959
Cosmology, physics, biology 'cause
00:41:11.959 --> 00:41:13.661
We take our time to explain it.
00:41:13.661 --> 00:41:14.995
The other thing i'd say in just a hat tip to my colleagues, i'm
00:41:14.995 --> 00:41:19.199
Just the synthesizer in chief.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:21.235
I've been very fortunate to work with all these great scientists
00:41:21.235 --> 00:41:25.439
Who are doing research projects on all these topics.
00:41:25.439 --> 00:41:27.775
So, i've been able to skim the cream off of their research,
00:41:27.775 --> 00:41:30.477
Synthesize it, and present it in a way that lots of people can
00:41:30.477 --> 00:41:33.747
Understand, but there's a lot of frontline scientific research
00:41:33.747 --> 00:41:37.017
That stands behind this, including work of scientists
00:41:37.017 --> 00:41:40.120
Like dr. tourer, who has over 1000 peer-reviewed
00:41:40.120 --> 00:41:43.691
Scientific publications.
00:41:43.691 --> 00:41:45.025
He's listed as one of the top 40 scientists in the world,
00:41:45.025 --> 00:41:48.362
Extraordinary guy, yeah.
00:41:48.362 --> 00:41:49.763
Laurie: i love him.
00:41:49.763 --> 00:41:51.131
Matt: and so, what we're--what this is also is telling that
00:41:51.131 --> 00:41:55.636
Bigger story that early in mankind, we all seem to kind of
00:41:55.636 --> 00:42:03.577
Understand, or they seem to understand this god of heaven
00:42:03.577 --> 00:42:07.281
And the earth, a creator of some sort.
00:42:07.281 --> 00:42:10.150
And then the story really just kind of starts sliding off, and
00:42:10.150 --> 00:42:16.090
I guess we get to the bottom of that in the '50s decade.
00:42:16.090 --> 00:42:19.827
Stephen: the late 19th century through the '50s, and then i
00:42:19.827 --> 00:42:22.796
Think there have been a series of things that are discoveries
00:42:22.796 --> 00:42:26.333
That are bringing--are showing the inadequacy of the
00:42:26.333 --> 00:42:29.670
Materialistic worldview and pointing again to the reality of
00:42:29.670 --> 00:42:34.475
A designing mind or creator behind the universe.
00:42:34.475 --> 00:42:37.177
Matt: thus the title "return of the god hypothesis."
00:42:37.177 --> 00:42:41.048
Okay, with that also, you have any final questions?
00:42:41.048 --> 00:42:43.384
Laurie: no.
00:42:43.384 --> 00:42:44.718
Matt: okay, final thought is yours, stephen.
00:42:44.718 --> 00:42:47.388
This is a lot of work.
00:42:47.388 --> 00:42:48.722
This is a lot of synthesized, you know, peer-reviewed
00:42:48.722 --> 00:42:52.793
Knowledge that's all got put into one place.
00:42:52.793 --> 00:42:55.429
But at some point, there has to be a takeaway that you want
00:42:55.429 --> 00:42:58.532
Somebody to have that invest time and for grandma and grandpa
00:42:58.532 --> 00:43:03.837
That are gonna buy this book and you get it off amazon, wherever
00:43:03.837 --> 00:43:08.542
And get it to somebody that you want your grandkids to have and
00:43:08.542 --> 00:43:12.479
All that.
00:43:12.479 --> 00:43:13.847
What do you want them to experience?
00:43:13.847 --> 00:43:16.784
Stephen: i remember a minute ago i was talking about those young
00:43:16.784 --> 00:43:18.585
People that are saying that they have doubts about the meaning,
00:43:18.585 --> 00:43:24.291
Whether their own lives have any meaning or ultimate purpose.
00:43:24.291 --> 00:43:28.662
I was one of those young people.
00:43:28.662 --> 00:43:30.864
And at 14, i had questions that were coming
00:43:30.864 --> 00:43:33.767
Into my head that i couldn't answer.
00:43:33.767 --> 00:43:35.102
What's going to matter in 100 years?
00:43:35.102 --> 00:43:38.172
It seemed like whatever i did, whatever i tried to achieve,
00:43:38.172 --> 00:43:40.107
Whatever goal i set was ultimately, it would be lost in
00:43:40.107 --> 00:43:43.544
What bertrand russell called the great heat death of the universe
00:43:43.544 --> 00:43:45.913
That's coming, you know, this bleak, materialistic vision of
00:43:45.913 --> 00:43:49.516
Reality where we come from an impersonal set of forces.
00:43:49.516 --> 00:43:53.120
We will--when we die, we rot.
00:43:53.120 --> 00:43:55.589
Eventually, all of us will die and rot.
00:43:55.589 --> 00:43:57.624
So, i love baseball and i love baseball players.
00:43:57.624 --> 00:43:59.693
I was reading a biography of all the great--the history of
00:43:59.693 --> 00:44:03.363
Baseball while i was in the hospital in a full leg cast.
00:44:03.363 --> 00:44:06.900
And i--and all the stories ended the same way.
00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:09.103
You know, the baseball players will get recruited.
00:44:09.103 --> 00:44:12.239
They were promising, they make the major leagues, they have
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:14.575
Mass records.
00:44:14.575 --> 00:44:15.909
But by the time they were 40, they had retired.
00:44:15.909 --> 00:44:17.845
They'd live out the rest of their days enjoying the
00:44:17.845 --> 00:44:19.580
Celebrity of being a pro-athlete,
00:44:19.580 --> 00:44:21.115
But then they died, what happened?
00:44:21.115 --> 00:44:22.449
And then there were the other there were--all that was left of
00:44:22.449 --> 00:44:24.818
Their lives were some numbers on a piece of paper.
00:44:24.818 --> 00:44:27.421
And i got thinking, "well, but what if i had been a surgeon?
00:44:27.421 --> 00:44:29.790
Would it be any different?"
00:44:29.790 --> 00:44:31.125
I mean, to me being a baseball player was the greatest thing,
00:44:31.125 --> 00:44:33.060
But there was a sense that no matter what we do in this life,
00:44:33.060 --> 00:44:36.296
Eventually we die, and within 100 years or so, it will
00:44:36.296 --> 00:44:39.633
Be forgotten.
00:44:39.633 --> 00:44:41.335
Some of them said that, you know, there, you know, no graves
00:44:41.335 --> 00:44:45.506
Are remembered very long, you know?
00:44:45.506 --> 00:44:47.474
And so, i just had this, i think, concern about meaning.
00:44:47.474 --> 00:44:52.813
You know, what would--where would you find meaning in life?
00:44:52.813 --> 00:44:56.216
And i was kind of--and then i began to worry that there was
00:44:56.216 --> 00:45:00.721
Something wrong with me because i had these questions popping
00:45:00.721 --> 00:45:02.823
Into my head, and i thought, "this must be what it means to
00:45:02.823 --> 00:45:05.626
Be insane," because i didn't see anyone else around me asking
00:45:05.626 --> 00:45:08.495
These kinds of questions.
00:45:08.495 --> 00:45:10.197
And now i know that lots of people do, but at 14, i didn't
00:45:10.197 --> 00:45:12.800
Know that.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:14.168
And i had this kind--i think it was a panic attack.
00:45:14.168 --> 00:45:15.836
I thought, "oh, maybe i'm insane."
00:45:15.836 --> 00:45:18.005
And so, i started to have these worries that there was something
00:45:18.005 --> 00:45:20.974
Wrong with me, that i was having these kind of metaphysical
00:45:20.974 --> 00:45:23.477
Questions which i didn't, at the time, know were
00:45:23.477 --> 00:45:25.212
Metaphysical questions.
00:45:25.212 --> 00:45:27.080
And i was saved out of that.
00:45:27.080 --> 00:45:29.016
I started to read, at one point, i came across the big fat white
00:45:29.016 --> 00:45:33.253
Catholic family bible in the living room, and i opened it,
00:45:33.253 --> 00:45:36.824
And it fell to a division between the testaments.
00:45:36.824 --> 00:45:39.359
There's a picture of a very rugged looking jesus saying,
00:45:39.359 --> 00:45:42.329
"come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and i will
00:45:42.329 --> 00:45:46.700
Give you rest."
00:45:46.700 --> 00:45:48.101
And i thought, "that sounded pretty good."
00:45:48.101 --> 00:45:49.436
And i started reading the next page, chapter 9 in the gospel
00:45:49.436 --> 00:45:53.874
Of matthew.
00:45:53.874 --> 00:45:55.342
And i found that i was--my mind was racing.
00:45:55.342 --> 00:45:58.445
I had--i could--but it settled me and enabled me to sleep.
00:45:58.445 --> 00:46:02.716
And so, i'd read another chapter the next night.
00:46:02.716 --> 00:46:04.952
And little by little as i encountered the worldview of the
00:46:04.952 --> 00:46:08.589
Bible, i found that there were answers to these questions that
00:46:08.589 --> 00:46:11.491
Have been nagging me.
00:46:11.491 --> 00:46:13.260
One of them was about time and about this idea that the sense
00:46:13.260 --> 00:46:16.263
That everything just shifted and moved and changed and there was
00:46:16.263 --> 00:46:19.633
Nothing stable that--so if i clap my hands,
00:46:19.633 --> 00:46:23.403
I can now remember that event
00:46:23.403 --> 00:46:24.738
A minute ago, but where did that event go?
00:46:24.738 --> 00:46:26.073
It's already gone.
00:46:26.073 --> 00:46:27.407
And that, at some level, really troubled me.
00:46:27.407 --> 00:46:29.877
It didn't seem like there was anything constant.
00:46:29.877 --> 00:46:32.012
And then i came across this passage in the book of hebrews
00:46:32.012 --> 00:46:34.014
That said, "jesus christ is the same yesterday, today, and
00:46:34.014 --> 00:46:37.985
Forever," and i had this sense there had to be something that
00:46:37.985 --> 00:46:39.887
Didn't change, or else everything that was constantly
00:46:39.887 --> 00:46:41.922
Changing around us had no lasting significance or meaning
00:46:41.922 --> 00:46:45.559
Or even reality.
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:47.494
And so, little by little, i encountered things in the bible
00:46:47.494 --> 00:46:50.063
That were addressing these really nagging questions.
00:46:50.063 --> 00:46:52.065
So, later i get to college and i'm taking philosophy classes
00:46:52.065 --> 00:46:55.936
And i had this wonderful christian philosophy professor
00:46:55.936 --> 00:46:58.505
Named norman krebs.
00:46:58.505 --> 00:46:59.840
He was teaching francis schaeffer's books as a
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:02.576
Philosophy classes.
00:47:02.576 --> 00:47:03.944
And in one of them, schaeffer quoted jean-paul sartre as
00:47:03.944 --> 00:47:06.580
Saying, "without an infinite reference point, nothing finite
00:47:06.580 --> 00:47:09.683
Has any lasting or enduring meaning."
00:47:09.683 --> 00:47:11.752
And i about jumped out of my chair because i said, "that's
00:47:11.752 --> 00:47:14.288
What was bothering me."
00:47:14.288 --> 00:47:15.789
And after class, i rush rushed up to krebs and i said, "this
00:47:15.789 --> 00:47:18.692
Was the thing that was bothering me."
00:47:18.692 --> 00:47:20.193
I said, "now i realize i wasn't insane.
00:47:20.193 --> 00:47:22.329
I was a philosopher."
00:47:22.329 --> 00:47:24.598
And he laughed and he said, "well, there's a fine line
00:47:24.598 --> 00:47:27.601
Between philosophy and insanity," he said.
00:47:27.601 --> 00:47:30.837
But the point is that for me the bible addressed these
00:47:30.837 --> 00:47:36.376
Things, these philosophical, metaphysical questions that i
00:47:36.376 --> 00:47:39.947
Was having, and it gave me adequate answers.
00:47:39.947 --> 00:47:42.883
And so, i began to be convinced that it was true.
00:47:42.883 --> 00:47:45.652
And that's when things started.
00:47:45.652 --> 00:47:47.154
And for me, it wasn't--i didn't have one of these ecstatic
00:47:47.154 --> 00:47:49.256
Damascus road experiences.
00:47:49.256 --> 00:47:51.024
Some kids at my school were going to billy graham crusades
00:47:51.024 --> 00:47:53.660
And coming back all full of joy.
00:47:53.660 --> 00:47:55.729
I just felt normal for the first time in my life.
00:47:55.729 --> 00:47:58.732
And that's when things really shifted for me.
00:47:58.732 --> 00:48:00.567
So, i always, you know, in my teaching, i'm sorry this is such
00:48:00.567 --> 00:48:03.503
A long answer, but when i was teaching at the college level, i
00:48:03.503 --> 00:48:07.574
Started--i offered a course called "reasons for faith"
00:48:07.574 --> 00:48:10.577
Because i wanted to connect with students that were--kids that
00:48:10.577 --> 00:48:13.613
Were wired like i had been wired.
00:48:13.613 --> 00:48:15.248
And i'd get the kids from the english department and the
00:48:15.248 --> 00:48:17.884
Philosophy majors and the kids that were across campus in the
00:48:17.884 --> 00:48:20.854
Sciences that were, you know, a little bit brainiac, but who's
00:48:20.854 --> 00:48:24.624
Had--their brains were spinning, and they didn't know what to do
00:48:24.624 --> 00:48:27.194
With all that.
00:48:27.194 --> 00:48:29.129
And so, that's--so i've always had a sense of wanting to help
00:48:29.129 --> 00:48:32.766
People find the answers that i found.
00:48:32.766 --> 00:48:35.769
Matt: the constant that jesus is the same yesterday, today, and
00:48:35.769 --> 00:48:39.306
Forever was the beginning of the settling of the
00:48:39.306 --> 00:48:43.910
Constant that you needed.
00:48:43.910 --> 00:48:45.245
Stephen: what's it gonna matter in 100 years?
00:48:45.245 --> 00:48:47.247
Well, if there is someone who is an infinite reference point and
00:48:47.247 --> 00:48:51.818
That infinite reference point is personal, you can't--there's no
00:48:51.818 --> 00:48:54.988
Meaning if there's no persons, right?
00:48:54.988 --> 00:48:56.957
So, unless the infinite reference point that sartre
00:48:56.957 --> 00:48:59.192
Talked about is personal, there can't--if there's no infinite
00:48:59.192 --> 00:49:02.462
Reference point, we all die, we rot, that's it.
00:49:02.462 --> 00:49:04.398
There's no meaning.
00:49:04.398 --> 00:49:05.732
But if the only thing--if we just have infinite matter and
00:49:05.732 --> 00:49:08.235
Energy, that doesn't give us meaning either.
00:49:08.235 --> 00:49:10.370
What creates the possibility of meaning is a relationship with a
00:49:10.370 --> 00:49:13.573
Person that can continue in an everlasting way as in exactly
00:49:13.573 --> 00:49:18.378
What jesus christ promised.
00:49:18.378 --> 00:49:20.047
Laurie: so, those words of everlasting and eternal and all
00:49:20.047 --> 00:49:23.884
Of those, wow.
00:49:23.884 --> 00:49:26.153
Stephen: the resurrection and the life, yeah.
00:49:26.153 --> 00:49:28.588
Laurie: i'm sorry we didn't answer that--ask that sooner.
00:49:28.588 --> 00:49:32.359
Beautiful.
00:49:32.359 --> 00:49:33.760
Matt: yeah, max lucado calls john 3:16 the hope diamond of
00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:38.765
The bible, you know?
00:49:38.765 --> 00:49:40.567
And that is--you know, was there a moment when, you know, the
00:49:40.567 --> 00:49:47.174
Bible says that it--with the heart, man believes unto
00:49:47.174 --> 00:49:50.844
Salvation; with the mouth, confession is made.
00:49:50.844 --> 00:49:53.780
And you--so you believe in your heart.
00:49:53.780 --> 00:49:58.251
Was there a moment when that hit you like a ton of bricks, or was
00:49:58.251 --> 00:50:02.589
It just this slow roll to belief in jesus?
00:50:02.589 --> 00:50:09.496
Stephen: it's probably a bit of both, but my conversion was a
00:50:09.496 --> 00:50:13.433
Very long protracted affair.
00:50:13.433 --> 00:50:15.635
But i remember my junior year in high school vowing, "i'm going
00:50:15.635 --> 00:50:21.608
To stop thinking about christianity for two weeks.
00:50:21.608 --> 00:50:24.144
I've just got to stop thinking about it."
00:50:24.144 --> 00:50:25.846
And so, it was that kind of a thing.
00:50:25.846 --> 00:50:28.315
And i remember going to a high school reunion
00:50:28.315 --> 00:50:32.819
And someone rushing up to me and
00:50:32.819 --> 00:50:34.154
Telling me that they had become a christian.
00:50:34.154 --> 00:50:35.489
And they said, "i remembered in high school you were
00:50:35.489 --> 00:50:37.691
A christian."
00:50:37.691 --> 00:50:39.059
I said, "no, i wasn't a christian.
00:50:39.059 --> 00:50:41.394
I was just obsessively thinking about it and talking about it
00:50:41.394 --> 00:50:44.264
All the time, but i didn't think i was," you know?
00:50:44.264 --> 00:50:46.766
And so, it was just a strange sort of
00:50:46.766 --> 00:50:49.536
Thing, i guess, that way.
00:50:49.536 --> 00:50:50.871
Matt: so, there was a, at some point, a realization that there
00:50:50.871 --> 00:50:55.575
Was a belief in your heart that jesus was who he said he was.
00:50:55.575 --> 00:51:00.313
And you found that largely on your own, reading a catholic
00:51:00.313 --> 00:51:04.251
Bible in the front room of your house?
00:51:04.251 --> 00:51:06.286
Stephen: well, yeah.
00:51:06.286 --> 00:51:07.921
Also, i would find--i would kind of find gospel radio programs
00:51:07.921 --> 00:51:12.192
All coming from the south, you know?
00:51:12.192 --> 00:51:14.327
I thought--i was in seattle.
00:51:14.327 --> 00:51:15.862
I thought all the christians were from oklahoma or texas.
00:51:15.862 --> 00:51:18.498
Laurie: they were.
00:51:18.498 --> 00:51:19.833
Stephen: and, you know, so.
00:51:19.833 --> 00:51:21.334
But in any case, eventually, you know, i got to college and i
00:51:21.334 --> 00:51:24.938
Met--i had science professors that were believers.
00:51:24.938 --> 00:51:26.973
I had philosophy professors.
00:51:26.973 --> 00:51:28.441
I started to have mentors and i became convinced that
00:51:28.441 --> 00:51:30.377
Christianity was true, but i was still not quite sure i wanted to
00:51:30.377 --> 00:51:33.980
Be a christian.
00:51:33.980 --> 00:51:35.315
And so, there, you know, everybody has to deal with the
00:51:35.315 --> 00:51:37.050
Issues of the will, and it took me a while.
00:51:37.050 --> 00:51:38.385
Matt: when did you cross that line?
00:51:38.385 --> 00:51:39.719
Stephen: i think it was probably my first year out of college
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.321
When i settled.
00:51:41.321 --> 00:51:42.689
Yeah, it was probably, yeah.
00:51:42.689 --> 00:51:44.457
I was 24, i think.
00:51:44.457 --> 00:51:46.560
And then what ignited for me was a real desire to want to serve
00:51:46.560 --> 00:51:51.131
God and to find a way to share what i had come to with
00:51:51.131 --> 00:51:54.968
Other people.
00:51:54.968 --> 00:51:56.303
And soon after that, i attended this conference in dallas that i
00:51:56.303 --> 00:51:58.972
Told you about in the last interview, where there were
00:51:58.972 --> 00:52:01.274
These scientists who were gathered to discuss the big
00:52:01.274 --> 00:52:03.176
Questions, the origin of the universe, the origin of life,
00:52:03.176 --> 00:52:05.845
The origin and nature of human consciousness.
00:52:05.845 --> 00:52:07.914
And i was blown away to learn about these scientific
00:52:07.914 --> 00:52:11.218
Discoveries that were pointing to the reality of a designing
00:52:11.218 --> 00:52:14.487
Mind, to the reality of god.
00:52:14.487 --> 00:52:17.090
And so, i had to come to faith largely on the basis of
00:52:17.090 --> 00:52:19.392
Philosophical reflection.
00:52:19.392 --> 00:52:21.494
And then it was to discover that there was scientific
00:52:21.494 --> 00:52:25.232
Evidence supporting what i had come to on philosophical
00:52:25.232 --> 00:52:27.834
Grounds, that just lit me, you know?
00:52:27.834 --> 00:52:30.403
And i--and then a year later, i was off to grad school and i was
00:52:30.403 --> 00:52:33.473
In cambridge studying the origin of life.
00:52:33.473 --> 00:52:36.276
And so, yeah.
00:52:36.276 --> 00:52:37.644
I've had a passion to help people see that this is
00:52:37.644 --> 00:52:39.846
Really true.
00:52:39.846 --> 00:52:41.214
This is not--i had one student who came up to me after taking
00:52:41.214 --> 00:52:44.351
One of my courses and he said, "i'm so angry now," and i said,
00:52:44.351 --> 00:52:47.087
"why are you angry?"
00:52:47.087 --> 00:52:48.455
It was my "reasons for faith" course.
00:52:48.455 --> 00:52:49.789
He said, "because you're saying christianity is true."
00:52:49.789 --> 00:52:52.492
And i said, "well, you must believe that.
00:52:52.492 --> 00:52:54.327
I mean, you're involved in young life and all this is--"
00:52:54.327 --> 00:52:56.529
"yeah, but," he said, "in church, i always got the sense
00:52:56.529 --> 00:52:58.965
That it was true, like true for me, true, and you're--it's true
00:52:58.965 --> 00:53:02.702
For you, true, but it's not true, true.
00:53:02.702 --> 00:53:04.437
It's not true like science is true, like history is true.
00:53:04.437 --> 00:53:07.007
It's not true like based on facts true."
00:53:07.007 --> 00:53:09.709
And i think a lot of people have the sense of their christian
00:53:09.709 --> 00:53:12.679
Faith is only subjectively based.
00:53:12.679 --> 00:53:14.914
I've had some experience of god, but i don't think there's any
00:53:14.914 --> 00:53:18.084
Evidence for it that i could share with anybody else.
00:53:18.084 --> 00:53:20.353
And i wanted to help people bridge that divide because i
00:53:20.353 --> 00:53:23.523
Have talked to non-believers, they get so frustrated when they
00:53:23.523 --> 00:53:25.825
Talk to christians, and we say, "well, you just gotta
00:53:25.825 --> 00:53:28.161
Have faith."
00:53:28.161 --> 00:53:29.529
And they said, "well, give me something more.
00:53:29.529 --> 00:53:31.131
I need some evidence.
00:53:31.131 --> 00:53:32.966
I need some reasons."
00:53:32.966 --> 00:53:34.334
And so, that's been really a kind of defining calling and
00:53:34.334 --> 00:53:38.171
Passion for me.
00:53:38.171 --> 00:53:39.539
Matt: i'd like to make a point here, if
00:53:39.539 --> 00:53:41.341
I could please, for a second.
00:53:41.341 --> 00:53:42.676
I'd like to just point out something.
00:53:42.676 --> 00:53:45.445
I have some news for you, stephen.
00:53:45.445 --> 00:53:47.681
You are as much of an evangelist as you are anything because you
00:53:47.681 --> 00:53:52.485
Realize there is a passion for people to understand the
00:53:52.485 --> 00:53:57.724
Consistency of a god that said, "i'm the same yesterday, today,
00:53:57.724 --> 00:54:02.495
And forever."
00:54:02.495 --> 00:54:03.830
And some people need to know that.
00:54:03.830 --> 00:54:05.665
It's packed in here, it's explained in here in a very
00:54:05.665 --> 00:54:08.902
Intellectual way.
00:54:08.902 --> 00:54:10.303
And you're gonna wanna send it to somebody.
00:54:10.303 --> 00:54:12.472
You become the evangelist, get the book and send it
00:54:12.472 --> 00:54:16.009
To somebody.
00:54:16.009 --> 00:54:17.344
Everyone's going, "oh yeah, i know who to send that to.
00:54:17.344 --> 00:54:20.480
I have a couple of people that i know need to hear this thing."
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:25.318
Stephen, thank you for being with us.
00:54:25.318 --> 00:54:26.653
Stephen: thank you and sorry for the long
00:54:26.653 --> 00:54:28.154
Answers at the end of the interview.
00:54:28.154 --> 00:54:30.090
Matt: lots of content from stephen meyer.
00:54:30.090 --> 00:54:34.160
Coming with tbn.
00:54:34.160 --> 00:54:35.795
And i mean, we're sitting here in 2025.
00:54:35.795 --> 00:54:38.031
I mean, i'm talking '26, '27--
00:54:38.031 --> 00:54:39.933
I mean, we got a lot of stuff coming in regard to this kind of
00:54:39.933 --> 00:54:45.305
Content because there is "a return to the god hypothesis."
00:54:45.305 --> 00:54:51.311
That's his way of saying it.
00:54:51.311 --> 00:54:53.146
God is on the move, okay?
00:54:53.146 --> 00:54:55.048
And we'll see you next time.
00:54:55.048 --> 00:54:56.383
Thank you, stephen. bye bye.
00:54:56.383 --> 00:54:57.884
♪♪♪
00:54:57.884 --> 00:54:57.884

Stephen Meyer: Return of the God Hypothesis | Praise

March 27, 2025 | 55:9

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