Allen Jackson NOW

Allen Jackson: Faith Flourishing | Allen Jackson Now

November 18, 2025 | 22:12

Byron Johnson joins Allen Jackson to discuss current events.

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Allen Jackson NOW | Allen Jackson: Faith Flourishing | Allen Jackson Now | November 18, 2025

Good evening and welcome to nashville.
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I'm alan jackson.
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There's a lot of tension in the world right now,
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But that doesn't mean there can't be hope.
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Tonight
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We're going to hear from a regular guest of ours
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Who's in the process of figuring out
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How to not just survive, but how to flourish
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Regardless of how fast things are changing.
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He's the director of the institute
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For studies of religion at baylor university in texas.
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Byron johnson, thank you for joining us again tonight.
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Thanks, allen.
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Always good to be back with you.
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But you've broken real news for us before,
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When you delivered your research that showed the growth
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In the people of faith in our country,
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Rather than the inaccurate statements
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From the mainstream media
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That claim people are pulling away from their faith.
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Well, now you finished the first phase
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Of another long term study,
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This one on what it takes to flourish in this world.
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Well, beyond just being happy,
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You've identified the facts beyond and behind flourishing.
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What made you decide to focus on this next?
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Well, you know, there's so
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Much talk about happiness and people really do
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Want to be happy.
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And we ask questions about happiness.
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We do think it's important, but it's just a little bit
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Of a picture of what it means to live a life lived.
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And so we we try to capture data on a host
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Of domains, in addition to asking if you're happy.
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And for the viewers, i think they'll relate to this.
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And in john chapter ten, verse ten,
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Jesus says, the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy.
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But i've come to give life and give abundant life.
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At some level, you could argue that we're talking
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To over 200,000 people around the world
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Trying to figure out what is the abundant life,
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What we would call the flourishing life.
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We don't use the word abundant life in our papers
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That are being published in academic scientific journals,
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But that's essentially what's going on here.
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And so what is the abundant life?
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Well,
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If one is has meaning and purpose, if you have hope,
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You have character, you have virtue,
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You have physical health,
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You have mental health, you have close relationships.
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These are all things that taken together,
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If you put them all together, gives us an idea of how
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Well you're doing in your life.
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And and i think
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Even as believers, it's always good to take stock
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Of where you are in your life.
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There may be moments when you're not doing so well
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In a certain dimension of your life.
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Maybe you've neglected your physical health
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Or you've neglected your mental health.
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But these are the kinds of things
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That we're looking at all around the world
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To see who's flourishing and who isn't.
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I think this is such an important topic
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Because personally,
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I think happiness is a life goal, is a lousy objective,
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But it's not an easy conversation to have.
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And you've done this so well.
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So what are the top things that help make people flourish?
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And what's different about that than just being happy?
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Well, you know, there's something called the world
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Happiness report that comes out every march.
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And people from around the world can't wait to see where
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Their country lands.
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And for the last eight years, finland has come out
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As the number one country in the world for being happy.
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And but it's based on one question.
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And so where we ask 109, they ask one question.
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And it's not even the best question to ask.
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They ask on a scale of 0 to 10, with zero being the worst life
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And ten being the happiest possible life.
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Where would you rank yourself?
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And so finland for some reason comes out
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Pretty high.
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But this and so do the scandinavian countries
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More generally.
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But in the global flourishing study, we don't find that
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We find that they're in the middle of the pack,
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Just like the united states is in the middle of the pack.
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And because the reason why we're in the middle of the pack
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Is we do well with financial security,
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And we do well with physical health, let's say.
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But we don't do well with meaning and purpose,
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And we don't do well with close relationships.
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And some of these things that actually do lead to
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The good life.
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You said something in a previous interview
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That i found interesting.
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When someone is flourishing, or if a church is flourishing
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Or a business is flourishing, everyone rises.
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Listen to what the president said
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About the role of faith in making our country stronger.
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America was founded on faith, as we know,
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And i've been saying it for a long time.
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And when faith gets weaker, our country seems to get weaker.
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When faith gets stronger, as it is right now,
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We're having a very good period of time.
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After some rough years and good things happen for our country.
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It's amazing the way it seems to work that way.
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Well, you reported a few years back
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That faith is getting stronger.
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What's behind that?
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Yeah, i do think that
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That quote from the president is is fairly accurate.
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And i think for a lot of people,
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They see things in society that, that bother them.
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And faith is one thing that allows people to make sense
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Of things in the world that are deeply troubling.
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You know, we say that flourishing, for
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Example, is not the absence of suffering.
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You may be in the middle of a cancer diagnosis
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And you may
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Be going through chemotherapy, but it could also be true
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That you have a relationship with god,
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That you've never enjoyed before now.
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And so
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These are the kinds of things that we're trying to understand.
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How is it that people are so resilient
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In the midst of tragedy,
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Or other kinds of things that do cause them concern?
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And so i think what you're seeing
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Is it ebbs and flows, but faith remains an undergirding factor
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In american society, no matter what sector that you look at.
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You see
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All kinds of social issues like crime, homelessness,
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Violence, gang activity.
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These are all connected at some level to faith.
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And where faith wanes, these things can can rise.
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And so i think where
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What we have shown is that faith
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Is really a part of the solution
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For so many of these social problems.
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That doesn't come as a surprise to people,
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But to know that there's empirical evidence behind it,
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I think is also very encouraging.
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At the same time.
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Well, if i'm listening to you correctly,
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You know,
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The idea has been widely held for a season
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That we should separate the church and the state.
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And and i think the christians
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Have taken that, that we should stay out of culture.
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But i think if we separate the church
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From influencing our culture,
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Then our happiness is going
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To crater and our we're not going to flourish.
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Exactly.
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In my understanding, you'd say that.
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I think that's exactly right.
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I think the founders believed that faith is what would make,
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This american experiment a successful one.
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They, they understood that people coming together
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In houses of worship would build close relationships.
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And close relationships are one of the key domains
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That factor into what it means to flourish.
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And that's why assembling together
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Is such an important thing.
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And one of our best variables
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In the entire data set is attendance.
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Just that simple variable where people come together,
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With other people that they care about
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And that they support and they lift up.
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And as we've said before, we flourish in community.
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You don't flourish in isolation.
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And i think we see so much,
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Of isolation and anxiety today.
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And i think that faith could be a real, important thing
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In, in alleviating those kinds of, problems
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Because it comes with a serious price tag.
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And for full disclosure, your research was not funded
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By pastors.
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You know, the surprising part of your research is what it says
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About young people
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Who aren't doing so well anxiety, stress, depression.
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And they're an overwhelming item.
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It used to be that the younger
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You are, the better you were doing.
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Now they're struggling.
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Explain what you found and what's contributing to that.
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I think the thing that surprised us, alan,
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Was that it's it's a global problem.
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I think people thought
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Maybe it's just the us, maybe it's just the west
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Where young people aren't doing as well as they used to do.
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But even in developing countries, we see that this
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Pattern holds that young people are not doing well. and,
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The middle aged crowd
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Seems to kind of be at the bottom of what used to be
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A u-shaped curve with young people
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And the elderly at the top of that curve.
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Because middle aged people have aging parents,
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They have mortgages, they have bills,
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They have all kinds
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Of responsibilities that that can really stress people.
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And then once you come out of that,
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You're on a better trajectory.
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But this is a very, very concerning pattern
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That young people are not doing well.
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And it makes one wonder if social media, the internet,
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If these things have a lot to do with people actually
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Not being in fellowship, not being in community,
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And not having the relationships that they need.
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We would argue that we're built to be in relationship,
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But yet, unfortunately, the internet, which i think
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Many people thought would connect
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The world, has done just the opposite,
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I think for a lot of people.
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Well, byron, we've got more research to unpack.
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Can you stay for another segment?
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Yes, absolutely.
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And during the break
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You should check out our website aj now.com.
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Or you can send me an email to check out previous shows
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And see what else we're up to here in nashville.
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I'll be right back.
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I'll be right back.
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We're back now with byron
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Johnson, the director of the institute
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For the studies of religion at baylor university in texas.
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Earlier in the show, i mentioned that we first noticed
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Your work when we read about your study
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That showed an increase in people of faith,
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Which was far different than the public polling,
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Which still says those numbers are going down.
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Would you help explain what you found was more thorough
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And thus far more accurate?
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Well, absolutely.
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What we
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Did, alan, was to review a significant number of studies
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That the data used in these studies, national level data
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Here in the united states,
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To see if there really was something going on.
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With so much emphasis on the decline in religion,
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God going away, america becoming more secular,
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Becoming more godless, atheism on the rise,
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People not going to church, and the rise of the nuns.
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And once we started to impact the data,
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What you find there is that there's a quick rush
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To judgment, made by many people.
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So the rise of the nuns, people that say i'm not affiliated.
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And then this most recent article
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That you referenced
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Just a moment ago, they talk about that,
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The unaffiliated are about 29% right now.
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So that's a huge segment of the american population.
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But those studies don't are not careful enough.
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They don't ask people who say, i'm not affiliated.
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They don't ask them
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Additional questions like, do you even go to church if you do?
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Where do you go to church?
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Could you give us the name and address of this church?
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Because what we find is a number of those people
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Who say unaffiliated actually do go to church,
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And they can give you the name
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And address of the church that they attend,
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And they say that they attend regularly.
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A lot of these churches are churches
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That are charismatic, maybe pentecostal,
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Maybe minority, churches that tend to be overlooked.
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And a lot of people don't see the name of their church
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Is, you know, a lot of these churches
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Now don't even list the denomination.
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So when you hear the name of the church,
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It has a religious sound,
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But it doesn't identify it with a particular denomination.
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So if they're looking
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For a church of the savior on that survey response sheet,
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They don't see church of the savior.
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So i'm just kind of put unaffiliated.
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But as it turns out,
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That's a non-denominational church
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Where there is a lot of faith going on.
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So you have people that are not measuring,
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Accurately and then drawing conclusions too quickly.
00:13:14.789 --> 00:13:19.060
So what they're saying is the rise of the nuns
00:13:19.060 --> 00:13:22.364
Are equated with the rise of atheism.
00:13:22.364 --> 00:13:25.634
And this,
00:13:25.634 --> 00:13:26.534
You know, they're making these beliefs
00:13:26.534 --> 00:13:27.936
That they have no basis for making.
00:13:27.936 --> 00:13:29.871
So atheism in america is around 4%.
00:13:29.871 --> 00:13:32.841
It's been 4% for the last seven decades.
00:13:32.841 --> 00:13:35.610
It hasn't changed in quite.
00:13:35.610 --> 00:13:37.479
It's quite remarkable that it hasn't.
00:13:37.479 --> 00:13:39.915
But and i'm not trying to argue that we don't live
00:13:39.915 --> 00:13:43.285
In a secular society.
00:13:43.285 --> 00:13:44.519
We actually do live in a secular society.
00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:46.588
And i know you're based in nashville,
00:13:46.588 --> 00:13:48.323
And you might argue that in the last 20 years,
00:13:48.323 --> 00:13:51.059
Nashville has become a more secular city.
00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:53.495
And i wouldn't disagree with you,
00:13:53.495 --> 00:13:55.363
But that doesn't mean people aren't still assembling.
00:13:55.363 --> 00:13:58.500
They're not.
00:13:58.500 --> 00:13:59.534
That doesn't mean they have abandoned
00:13:59.534 --> 00:14:01.503
Congregations, and it doesn't mean
00:14:01.503 --> 00:14:03.238
They don't watch shows like yours.
00:14:03.238 --> 00:14:05.140
They do.
00:14:05.140 --> 00:14:06.574
And so what we have found is that when you ask people
00:14:06.574 --> 00:14:09.044
About their prayer life,
00:14:09.044 --> 00:14:10.845
Other religious activities that they're involved in, bible
00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:14.983
Studies, scripture engagement, what we find is that a majority
00:14:14.983 --> 00:14:20.155
Of the world's population remains very religious.
00:14:20.155 --> 00:14:23.992
They do attend regularly.
00:14:23.992 --> 00:14:25.961
They do believe in god. they believe in miracles.
00:14:25.961 --> 00:14:28.330
And we find it's really interesting,
00:14:28.330 --> 00:14:30.231
As a lot of atheists, actually,
00:14:30.231 --> 00:14:31.599
When you push them and ask them, do you believe in god?
00:14:31.599 --> 00:14:34.769
A fair number of them say, well, i do pray.
00:14:34.769 --> 00:14:38.740
So it's kind of like we should be doing maybe a study
00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:43.211
That to em, we have countering this,
00:14:43.211 --> 00:14:46.247
The rise of the nuns with the rise of the others.
00:14:46.247 --> 00:14:50.819
These are people that don't fit neatly into
00:14:50.819 --> 00:14:53.488
Certain categories that researchers kind of define.
00:14:53.488 --> 00:14:56.925
And that's what we should be spending our time on,
00:14:56.925 --> 00:14:59.361
Because there are a
00:14:59.361 --> 00:15:00.562
Lot of people that don't fit into traditional categories.
00:15:00.562 --> 00:15:03.765
Yeah, it seems to me it's not a new thing.
00:15:04.632 --> 00:15:06.701
This urgency to declare faith is diminishing,
00:15:06.701 --> 00:15:09.537
Whether it's the rise of the nuns or back in the 60s.
00:15:09.537 --> 00:15:11.806
Time magazine publishes that god is dead.
00:15:11.806 --> 00:15:14.542
Yeah, somewhat prematurely, it seems to me i think so,
00:15:14.542 --> 00:15:17.879
But there is faith that hope that's alive and vibrant.
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.116
You have a little trouble sometimes
00:15:21.116 --> 00:15:22.217
Getting your findings published.
00:15:22.217 --> 00:15:23.885
I understand that the publishers push back.
00:15:23.885 --> 00:15:26.521
Well, you know,
00:15:26.521 --> 00:15:27.889
We we get everything published and we we try to do it
00:15:27.889 --> 00:15:31.192
Well and it tends to come out in very good journals.
00:15:31.192 --> 00:15:33.762
But every now and again
00:15:33.762 --> 00:15:35.263
You'll get some kind of review or response
00:15:35.263 --> 00:15:38.733
That just doesn't make much sense.
00:15:38.733 --> 00:15:40.902
And you think, what's going on here?
00:15:40.902 --> 00:15:43.271
Does the reviewer just simply hate the findings?
00:15:43.271 --> 00:15:47.742
Because the findings push against this narrative
00:15:47.742 --> 00:15:51.046
That god is not dead, that god is not going away,
00:15:51.046 --> 00:15:54.816
That god is alive and well, and that faith is a vibrant thing.
00:15:54.816 --> 00:15:58.653
And in american society, and it's vibrant around the world.
00:15:58.653 --> 00:16:02.891
That's maybe not the narrative that i think so many want.
00:16:02.891 --> 00:16:05.894
And so, yeah, we've had some trouble
00:16:05.894 --> 00:16:07.362
Getting papers published and getting op eds published.
00:16:07.362 --> 00:16:10.965
But you just keep pushing eventually, i think data rules.
00:16:10.965 --> 00:16:15.103
And, and so we are a big believer in the data.
00:16:15.103 --> 00:16:17.505
We keep pushing the research.
00:16:17.505 --> 00:16:19.707
A lot of grateful.
00:16:19.707 --> 00:16:21.142
One last question before we go.
00:16:21.142 --> 00:16:22.644
It seems people often turn to government for their solutions.
00:16:22.644 --> 00:16:25.580
But i believe the only way for true change to take place
00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:28.450
Is if we turn our hearts to the lord and seek him.
00:16:28.450 --> 00:16:30.852
Government is not the solution,
00:16:30.852 --> 00:16:32.120
It's just an expression of the hearts of the people.
00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:34.622
You found that
00:16:34.622 --> 00:16:35.590
When government works with local churches,
00:16:35.590 --> 00:16:36.825
The outcomes can be dramatically better.
00:16:36.825 --> 00:16:39.327
Can you tell us about that?
00:16:39.327 --> 00:16:41.262
Sure.
00:16:41.262 --> 00:16:42.263
When we did a national study on homelessness,
00:16:42.263 --> 00:16:44.432
We talked to mayors all across the country.
00:16:44.432 --> 00:16:47.469
These are mayors that it doesn't matter if they're democrat
00:16:47.469 --> 00:16:50.738
Or republican.
00:16:50.738 --> 00:16:51.973
When we ask them about houses of worship in faith based groups,
00:16:51.973 --> 00:16:55.543
They say we partner with all of them.
00:16:55.543 --> 00:16:57.078
We want to partner with them. they're in the trenches.
00:16:57.078 --> 00:16:59.447
They're doing all this work that's so important,
00:16:59.447 --> 00:17:02.517
And they acknowledge it.
00:17:02.517 --> 00:17:04.152
So if you go to a local city, you'll see that
00:17:04.152 --> 00:17:07.856
These groups are on the ground fighting every social problem
00:17:07.856 --> 00:17:11.593
That we have.
00:17:11.593 --> 00:17:12.393
And government leaders know it.
00:17:12.393 --> 00:17:14.796
And they will not be bashful about saying that.
00:17:14.796 --> 00:17:18.766
I think what happens is
00:17:18.766 --> 00:17:20.068
We get caught up sometimes in the rhetoric of washington,
00:17:20.068 --> 00:17:23.404
And it gives us
00:17:23.404 --> 00:17:24.506
An inaccurate picture of what's actually going on
00:17:24.506 --> 00:17:27.208
In, in the lives of everyday americans all across
00:17:27.208 --> 00:17:30.845
This great country.
00:17:30.845 --> 00:17:32.814
Well,
00:17:33.047 --> 00:17:34.149
Vira johnson, thank you for sharing your work with us.
00:17:34.149 --> 00:17:36.284
If our viewers want to read more about what you've discovered,
00:17:36.284 --> 00:17:38.953
Where should they go?
00:17:38.953 --> 00:17:40.655
Sure, you can go to ww dot,
00:17:40.655 --> 00:17:43.791
Baylor, esr dawg, and they'll find all kinds
00:17:43.791 --> 00:17:48.229
Of information there.
00:17:48.229 --> 00:17:49.264
And they can also go to global flourishing
00:17:49.264 --> 00:17:52.534
Study.com to read about the global flourishing study.
00:17:52.534 --> 00:17:56.471
Well thank you for your work.
00:17:56.471 --> 00:17:58.139
Thanks, alan.
00:17:58.139 --> 00:17:59.407
We'll be right back in just a moment.
00:17:59.407 --> 00:18:08.003
We'll be right back in just a moment.
00:18:08.003 --> 00:18:12.354
Thank you for taking the time to send your emails.
00:18:13.389 --> 00:18:15.791
They are always a highlight for our whole team.
00:18:15.791 --> 00:18:18.827
Michael from georgia wrote.
00:18:18.827 --> 00:18:20.696
First, i've been thinking that this sudden and drastic rise
00:18:20.696 --> 00:18:23.632
In anti-semitism in europe and the us is going to be used
00:18:23.632 --> 00:18:27.469
By god to drive as many jews back to israel as possible
00:18:27.469 --> 00:18:31.607
Before he unleashes wrath on the nations.
00:18:31.607 --> 00:18:35.110
It's an interesting perspective, michael.
00:18:35.945 --> 00:18:37.479
I think the the rise in hatred of the jewish people in
00:18:37.479 --> 00:18:42.251
The western europe and in america certainly will
00:18:42.251 --> 00:18:46.388
Cause some of the
00:18:46.822 --> 00:18:48.057
Jewish population to consider relocating to israel.
00:18:48.057 --> 00:18:52.027
I think the judgment of god is headed our way
00:18:52.027 --> 00:18:55.431
In general, if we don't find the humility to repent.
00:18:55.431 --> 00:18:58.267
We've been promoting ungodliness
00:18:58.267 --> 00:18:59.835
And immoral perspectives and celebrating perversion
00:18:59.835 --> 00:19:02.738
For so long.
00:19:02.738 --> 00:19:03.806
We've taken the blessings of god and imagined
00:19:03.806 --> 00:19:05.908
That we made ourselves prosperous.
00:19:05.908 --> 00:19:08.310
It's it's
00:19:08.310 --> 00:19:10.846
It's beyond unsettling.
00:19:10.846 --> 00:19:12.147
But i do believe there's a bit of an awakening.
00:19:12.147 --> 00:19:14.783
So i think as we pray for the jewish people,
00:19:14.783 --> 00:19:16.852
We should be praying for ourselves
00:19:16.852 --> 00:19:18.754
That we will recognize the truth.
00:19:18.754 --> 00:19:21.056
Jb from california wrote.
00:19:21.056 --> 00:19:22.458
Pastor, do you see any comparison
00:19:22.458 --> 00:19:23.892
Between the fall of babylon described in revelation
00:19:23.892 --> 00:19:27.129
And what's happening in new york city?
00:19:27.129 --> 00:19:29.265
It's definitely got my attention.
00:19:29.265 --> 00:19:32.134
Well, i, i agree, it seems that the election in new york
00:19:32.134 --> 00:19:34.069
Has captured a great deal of attention,
00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:36.272
With mamdani being chosen to be president.
00:19:36.272 --> 00:19:38.274
I mean, mayor, god forbid.
00:19:38.274 --> 00:19:40.109
President.
00:19:40.109 --> 00:19:41.410
But and it should capture our attention
00:19:41.410 --> 00:19:43.212
When we choose
00:19:43.212 --> 00:19:44.446
A muslim to have authority over the largest city in america.
00:19:44.446 --> 00:19:46.782
But i would remind you that chicago, la,
00:19:46.782 --> 00:19:49.118
San francisco, seattle, portland, minneapolis
00:19:49.118 --> 00:19:52.888
Are all cities refusing federal law, demanding federal funds.
00:19:52.888 --> 00:19:57.026
New york city seems to be the latest domino in that change.
00:19:57.026 --> 00:20:00.429
We're in trouble.
00:20:00.429 --> 00:20:01.163
That's going to take repentance
00:20:01.163 --> 00:20:02.197
And humility on behalf of god's people.
00:20:02.197 --> 00:20:04.300
We don't need the majority.
00:20:04.300 --> 00:20:05.634
We need to choose the truth.
00:20:05.634 --> 00:20:07.636
We'll be back in just a moment.
00:20:07.636 --> 00:20:14.743
Thank you for spending a few minutes of your day with us.
00:20:14.743 --> 00:20:18.223
Just a reminder if you ever missed the program.
00:20:18.223 --> 00:20:20.292
When it's live, you can always go to aj.
00:20:20.292 --> 00:20:22.261
Now.com.
00:20:22.261 --> 00:20:23.595
There's a full archive of all the programs.
00:20:23.595 --> 00:20:25.898
You can watch them at your leisure.
00:20:25.898 --> 00:20:27.166
You can share them with a friend.
00:20:27.166 --> 00:20:28.767
The more the merrier.
00:20:28.767 --> 00:20:30.803
Again, thank you for a few moments of your time.
00:20:30.803 --> 00:20:32.971
God bless you. and you have a good evening.
00:20:32.971 --> 00:20:32.971

Allen Jackson: Faith Flourishing | Allen Jackson Now

November 18, 2025 | 22:12

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