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Crime Stories With Nancy Grace

Savannah Copeland | Crime Stories With Nancy Grace

December 3, 2024 | S1:E171

Savannah Copeland | Crime Stories With Nancy Grace
13-Year-Old Savannah Copeland Allegedly Murdered by 15-Year-Old in Powell, Tennessee; Nancy Grace Offers Insight into the Devastating Case.
#Victim #Pain #Actions #Evil #Trials-HardTimes #Injustice #inActive #Television #Accountability #Murder #Media #Crime #Discover

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Crime Stories With Nancy Grace | Savannah Copeland | Crime Stories With Nancy Grace | December 3, 2024
  • Breaking news tonight.
  • 00:00:00.056 --> 00:00:01.324
  • A beautiful young teen cheerleader
  • 00:00:01.324 --> 00:00:04.561
  • Frenzy stabbed by a teen boy.
  • 00:00:04.561 --> 00:00:08.665
  • Dad having to use a tracking app
  • 00:00:08.665 --> 00:00:11.901
  • To try to find his girl's body.
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  • Good evening, i'm nancy grace.
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  • This is crime stories.
  • 00:00:17.340 --> 00:00:18.641
  • Thank you for being with us.
  • 00:00:18.641 --> 00:00:34.324
  • Savannah copeland
  • 00:00:34.757 --> 00:00:35.859
  • Is a 13 year old middle schooler in tennessee.
  • 00:00:35.859 --> 00:00:38.995
  • She has big dreams of becoming a forensic anthropologist
  • 00:00:38.995 --> 00:00:42.765
  • And is an all star athlete,
  • 00:00:42.765 --> 00:00:44.501
  • Excelling in gymnastics, karate, and cheerleading.
  • 00:00:44.501 --> 00:00:48.304
  • But things take a deadly turn when savannah vanishes
  • 00:00:48.304 --> 00:00:52.375
  • In the middle of the night.
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  • Can you imagine?
  • 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:58.448
  • You wake up in the morning.
  • 00:00:58.448 --> 00:01:00.683
  • You get everything ready for your children
  • 00:01:00.683 --> 00:01:03.253
  • And then wake them for breakfast and your child is not there.
  • 00:01:03.253 --> 00:01:08.691
  • That is what this little 13 year old cheerleader's parents
  • 00:01:08.691 --> 00:01:12.695
  • Experienced. listen.
  • 00:01:12.695 --> 00:01:14.664
  • She's never gone out.
  • 00:01:14.664 --> 00:01:16.332
  • As far as i know.
  • 00:01:16.332 --> 00:01:18.034
  • You know, i mean, i could look at her
  • 00:01:18.868 --> 00:01:20.303
  • Life 360 every single day, and i could see
  • 00:01:20.303 --> 00:01:23.306
  • She didn't sneak out. she never went out.
  • 00:01:23.306 --> 00:01:25.074
  • We never had to worry about that. from our friends.
  • 00:01:25.074 --> 00:01:27.844
  • W 86 michael copeland.
  • 00:01:27.844 --> 00:01:31.714
  • Little 13 year old savannah's father. trying
  • 00:01:31.714 --> 00:01:33.983
  • To make sense of what happened that horrible night.
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  • First of all, life.
  • 00:01:37.720 --> 00:01:39.322
  • 360 we've all heard of it.
  • 00:01:39.322 --> 00:01:41.157
  • Many people know about it.
  • 00:01:41.157 --> 00:01:42.325
  • Many people doubt,
  • 00:01:42.325 --> 00:01:44.194
  • What it is to barry hutchinson joining us,
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  • Veteran law enforcement and detective, now
  • 00:01:47.564 --> 00:01:49.933
  • Owner, and chief investigator at barry and associates
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  • Investigative services.
  • 00:01:53.002 --> 00:01:54.804
  • Barry, it's quite an investigative tool.
  • 00:01:54.804 --> 00:01:59.042
  • Live 360.
  • 00:01:59.042 --> 00:02:00.376
  • Explain.
  • 00:02:00.376 --> 00:02:03.112
  • It can be used to track
  • 00:02:03.112 --> 00:02:04.480
  • The movements of whoever the phone belongs to.
  • 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.784
  • As you know, nancy, the, cell towers.
  • 00:02:07.784 --> 00:02:11.154
  • Phones can be pinged on every location,
  • 00:02:11.154 --> 00:02:13.122
  • Wherever the phones and signals and the triangulation pattern.
  • 00:02:13.122 --> 00:02:16.659
  • And it's really, really helpful.
  • 00:02:16.659 --> 00:02:17.961
  • To track the movements.
  • 00:02:17.961 --> 00:02:19.195
  • Of victims and where they work particular times to establish
  • 00:02:19.195 --> 00:02:23.233
  • Motives and everything else involved in the case.
  • 00:02:23.233 --> 00:02:25.501
  • Straight out to lauren collins joining us, investigative
  • 00:02:25.501 --> 00:02:29.339
  • Reporter, co-host primetime crime on youtube.
  • 00:02:29.339 --> 00:02:32.775
  • You can find her at pop crime.tv.
  • 00:02:32.775 --> 00:02:35.278
  • Lauren, thank you for being with us.
  • 00:02:35.278 --> 00:02:36.813
  • Explain to me
  • 00:02:36.813 --> 00:02:38.014
  • What happened that night because i find it very unusual.
  • 00:02:38.014 --> 00:02:41.918
  • This little 13 year old girl
  • 00:02:41.918 --> 00:02:43.953
  • Was always where she said she would be bullied at school,
  • 00:02:43.953 --> 00:02:48.124
  • At church,
  • 00:02:48.124 --> 00:02:49.192
  • At cheerleading practice, on the way
  • 00:02:49.192 --> 00:02:51.394
  • Between those three locations.
  • 00:02:51.394 --> 00:02:53.563
  • Never once
  • 00:02:53.563 --> 00:02:55.465
  • Had she not been home when she was supposed to be home.
  • 00:02:55.465 --> 00:02:59.335
  • What happened that night?
  • 00:02:59.335 --> 00:03:00.770
  • What do we know at the beginning?
  • 00:03:00.770 --> 00:03:02.639
  • What did the parents find that morning?
  • 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:04.674
  • What we do know is that, as you mentioned, her parents woke up
  • 00:03:04.674 --> 00:03:08.811
  • And she wasn't there. they panicked.
  • 00:03:08.811 --> 00:03:11.781
  • I use air tags for my kids, but i have heard life 360
  • 00:03:11.781 --> 00:03:15.685
  • Is also amazing. so her dad
  • 00:03:15.685 --> 00:03:18.621
  • Pulled the app
  • 00:03:18.955 --> 00:03:20.089
  • Open and he realized that, oh my gosh, she's nearby.
  • 00:03:20.089 --> 00:03:23.660
  • She was sort of at this trail by the community pool.
  • 00:03:23.660 --> 00:03:27.830
  • Lauren, when you say the trail
  • 00:03:27.830 --> 00:03:30.833
  • Led alongside a pool, is that the community pool?
  • 00:03:30.833 --> 00:03:35.605
  • We're talking about the neighborhood pool, so to speak.
  • 00:03:35.605 --> 00:03:38.908
  • Yes. it's the broad acres neighborhood, nancy.
  • 00:03:38.908 --> 00:03:41.711
  • And if you look online,
  • 00:03:41.711 --> 00:03:42.845
  • This neighborhood is described as warm and charming.
  • 00:03:42.845 --> 00:03:46.416
  • It's actually a very popular pool and a popular trail.
  • 00:03:46.416 --> 00:03:50.253
  • Okay.
  • 00:03:50.486 --> 00:03:51.287
  • I want to talk to barry hutchinson
  • 00:03:51.287 --> 00:03:52.522
  • Again, our law enforcement and owner of barry and associates
  • 00:03:52.522 --> 00:03:55.925
  • Investigative services.
  • 00:03:55.925 --> 00:03:57.193
  • Barry, when you look at live 360.
  • 00:03:57.193 --> 00:04:01.164
  • Okay. because i've got two teens.
  • 00:04:01.164 --> 00:04:04.033
  • I don't know how this happened, but they just turned 17
  • 00:04:04.033 --> 00:04:06.736
  • And they're always going in different directions.
  • 00:04:06.736 --> 00:04:09.472
  • Now, i know where they're
  • 00:04:09.472 --> 00:04:10.440
  • Supposed to be, but this live 360 is amazing.
  • 00:04:10.440 --> 00:04:14.243
  • It can tell you if they're on foot
  • 00:04:14.243 --> 00:04:16.179
  • Because it shows little sneakers walking.
  • 00:04:16.179 --> 00:04:18.881
  • It can tell
  • 00:04:18.881 --> 00:04:20.083
  • If they're sitting in a car or even if the car is not moving.
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  • It can tell
  • 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:24.887
  • If they're in a moving car and how fast the car is going.
  • 00:04:24.887 --> 00:04:28.458
  • And it shows you a map where where they're headed,
  • 00:04:28.458 --> 00:04:32.261
  • What street they're on, and my children have it on me as well.
  • 00:04:32.261 --> 00:04:36.032
  • So another feature of live 360 barry
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  • Hutchinson is that if you know the right button to push,
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  • It can show you their trail that day.
  • 00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:48.144
  • That's what lauren column was talking about.
  • 00:04:48.144 --> 00:04:50.813
  • The trail.
  • 00:04:50.813 --> 00:04:51.848
  • So explain the trail.
  • 00:04:51.848 --> 00:04:54.484
  • It almost looks like,
  • 00:04:54.484 --> 00:04:56.185
  • A digitized footprint line.
  • 00:04:56.786 --> 00:04:59.088
  • Little dots showing you where they've been.
  • 00:04:59.088 --> 00:05:01.424
  • How does it do that, barry?
  • 00:05:01.424 --> 00:05:03.960
  • It's all done by satellite and geofencing.
  • 00:05:03.960 --> 00:05:07.530
  • It's a very, very great tool.
  • 00:05:08.164 --> 00:05:09.866
  • It shows everything.
  • 00:05:09.866 --> 00:05:10.867
  • But one thing i want you to keep in mind also
  • 00:05:10.867 --> 00:05:13.669
  • Doesn't necessarily 100% mean that's where the person was.
  • 00:05:13.669 --> 00:05:17.340
  • It means less where the phone was.
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  • Okay.
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  • Barry hutchinson,
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  • I don't know how old your children are,
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  • But if you have a child that's a teen,
  • 00:05:24.514 --> 00:05:26.916
  • I guarantee you their phone is with them.
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  • Unless you're actually.
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  • You're right, barry,
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  • Unless it's been physically taken away from them.
  • 00:05:32.522 --> 00:05:35.224
  • So lauren collins joining me, investigative reporter.
  • 00:05:35.224 --> 00:05:38.327
  • Lauren, you're telling me that the dad opens up
  • 00:05:38.327 --> 00:05:41.564
  • The live free 60 app trying to find out where is she?
  • 00:05:41.564 --> 00:05:46.936
  • Savannah's not in her bed,
  • 00:05:46.936 --> 00:05:48.771
  • And he looks at where she's been
  • 00:05:49.405 --> 00:05:53.576
  • Because apparently her phone by that time was dead.
  • 00:05:53.576 --> 00:05:57.580
  • What happened exactly the night before she disappears.
  • 00:05:57.580 --> 00:06:01.684
  • Listen, getting a call that his daughter is missing.
  • 00:06:01.684 --> 00:06:04.253
  • Michael copeland heads back home to search for savannah using
  • 00:06:04.253 --> 00:06:07.557
  • The line 360 app that shows where the phone goes.
  • 00:06:07.557 --> 00:06:10.560
  • They could see the path that savannah took and at what time.
  • 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.796
  • The app shows the family that savannah went
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  • Missing between midnight and 2:30 a.m.,
  • 00:06:15.665 --> 00:06:17.633
  • But does not show her exact location.
  • 00:06:17.633 --> 00:06:20.336
  • Starting in the general location,
  • 00:06:20.336 --> 00:06:22.138
  • The family goes door to door asking
  • 00:06:22.138 --> 00:06:23.973
  • If someone has a doorbell camera that might have seen
  • 00:06:23.973 --> 00:06:26.509
  • What direction savannah was going in.
  • 00:06:26.509 --> 00:06:28.578
  • To no avail.
  • 00:06:28.578 --> 00:06:30.046
  • Lauren column.
  • 00:06:30.046 --> 00:06:31.080
  • That is heartbreaking.
  • 00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:32.882
  • So the parents see this trail the dad does
  • 00:06:32.882 --> 00:06:36.285
  • And they start walking the trail door
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  • To door asking people, have you seen savannah?
  • 00:06:39.655 --> 00:06:44.060
  • And, in my book, don't be a victim.
  • 00:06:44.060 --> 00:06:47.563
  • I ask parents, guardians, caretakers to keep photos
  • 00:06:47.563 --> 00:06:52.134
  • Of their children, current photos on their phone,
  • 00:06:52.134 --> 00:06:56.205
  • And any other identifying
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  • Features that they can show people immediately
  • 00:06:59.876 --> 00:07:03.079
  • And to always know what their children are wearing,
  • 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.349
  • What their backpack looks like.
  • 00:07:06.349 --> 00:07:08.050
  • Anything about them. now, tell me about this.
  • 00:07:08.050 --> 00:07:10.686
  • So here it is. first thing in the morning, dad goes to work.
  • 00:07:10.686 --> 00:07:13.222
  • He gets the call. savannah is not here.
  • 00:07:13.222 --> 00:07:14.824
  • He races home and they start going door
  • 00:07:14.824 --> 00:07:17.793
  • To door along this live 360 trail.
  • 00:07:17.793 --> 00:07:20.796
  • Tell me about that.
  • 00:07:20.796 --> 00:07:22.999
  • Yes. they were frantically looking for their child,
  • 00:07:22.999 --> 00:07:26.435
  • And they followed the path that they saw on the app,
  • 00:07:26.435 --> 00:07:30.439
  • Which was so helpful
  • 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:32.375
  • Until they were able to connect with law enforcement
  • 00:07:32.375 --> 00:07:36.946
  • And finally go to the trail behind the community pool.
  • 00:07:36.946 --> 00:07:41.217
  • What is hard to believe
  • 00:07:41.217 --> 00:07:44.587
  • Is that many people have actually found fault
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  • With the little 13 year old cheerleader
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  • For leaving her home in the middle of the night,
  • 00:07:51.861 --> 00:07:56.332
  • Based on her history.
  • 00:07:56.832 --> 00:07:59.135
  • As i always say,
  • 00:07:59.135 --> 00:08:00.469
  • When you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
  • 00:08:00.469 --> 00:08:04.140
  • I have never once seen my daughter or son,
  • 00:08:04.140 --> 00:08:08.544
  • Or no of them crawling out the window
  • 00:08:08.544 --> 00:08:12.315
  • Or leaving the house in the middle of the night.
  • 00:08:12.315 --> 00:08:15.184
  • Does that mean it will never happen?
  • 00:08:15.985 --> 00:08:17.587
  • No, i'm just saying it never has.
  • 00:08:17.587 --> 00:08:19.722
  • When you don't know what's going to happen,
  • 00:08:19.722 --> 00:08:21.857
  • You look back at what has already happened.
  • 00:08:21.857 --> 00:08:24.760
  • In this case.
  • 00:08:24.760 --> 00:08:25.761
  • This little girl had never left home before.
  • 00:08:25.761 --> 00:08:30.266
  • Savannah copeland,
  • 00:08:30.266 --> 00:08:31.300
  • Just 13 years old, all caught up in middle school
  • 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.605
  • And cheerleading had never snuck out before.
  • 00:08:35.605 --> 00:08:40.076
  • So why that night of all nights
  • 00:08:40.076 --> 00:08:43.980
  • In 13 years, it had never happened.
  • 00:08:43.980 --> 00:08:47.383
  • And i submit she was lured out, lured out, bringing to mind
  • 00:08:47.383 --> 00:08:53.189
  • The case of another 13 year old little girl, nicole lovell.
  • 00:08:53.189 --> 00:08:58.294
  • Nicole lovell, we believe,
  • 00:08:58.861 --> 00:09:01.430
  • Was lured out by a phone app
  • 00:09:01.430 --> 00:09:04.600
  • Or an online dating apps
  • 00:09:05.134 --> 00:09:07.703
  • Such as kit kik lured out of her home.
  • 00:09:07.703 --> 00:09:12.074
  • Her mother discovers the next morning she's gone.
  • 00:09:12.074 --> 00:09:16.045
  • Nicole
  • 00:09:16.245 --> 00:09:18.114
  • Also lured out
  • 00:09:18.114 --> 00:09:20.216
  • By an older teen boy.
  • 00:09:20.216 --> 00:09:23.252
  • She also is stabbed dead
  • 00:09:23.786 --> 00:09:27.623
  • And her body found beside the road.
  • 00:09:27.623 --> 00:09:31.594
  • It's a phenomena straight out to phillip dubay
  • 00:09:31.594 --> 00:09:35.731
  • Joining us, high profile lawyer
  • 00:09:35.731 --> 00:09:37.466
  • Out of la with the public defender's office.
  • 00:09:37.466 --> 00:09:41.003
  • A phillip
  • 00:09:41.303 --> 00:09:43.339
  • Teen crime.
  • 00:09:43.339 --> 00:09:45.408
  • I always have considered teen killers
  • 00:09:45.408 --> 00:09:49.311
  • As more dangerous than adults because
  • 00:09:49.311 --> 00:09:52.948
  • They don't have a conscience, yet they don't understand
  • 00:09:52.948 --> 00:09:55.985
  • The gravity of what they're doing.
  • 00:09:55.985 --> 00:09:58.487
  • So they are acting, without any moral compass at all.
  • 00:09:58.487 --> 00:10:05.094
  • As in the case i just told you about,
  • 00:10:05.094 --> 00:10:07.496
  • Nicole lovell, just 13 years old,
  • 00:10:07.496 --> 00:10:10.466
  • Who was lured out of her home with her mom by an older teen,
  • 00:10:10.466 --> 00:10:15.037
  • David eisenhauer, who i believe had been a valedictorian
  • 00:10:15.037 --> 00:10:19.075
  • At some small private school
  • 00:10:19.075 --> 00:10:20.976
  • Before he went on to be an athlete scholar at college.
  • 00:10:20.976 --> 00:10:25.381
  • He had just gotten there 17 ish years old,
  • 00:10:25.381 --> 00:10:29.785
  • Luring this little girl out because he did not want anyone
  • 00:10:29.785 --> 00:10:34.523
  • To find out about their sex relationship.
  • 00:10:34.523 --> 00:10:37.727
  • That's what happened right there.
  • 00:10:37.727 --> 00:10:39.462
  • So the luring out of a little girl,
  • 00:10:39.462 --> 00:10:43.265
  • 13 years old, like savannah copeland,
  • 00:10:43.265 --> 00:10:46.235
  • I find it very difficult to understand
  • 00:10:46.235 --> 00:10:48.104
  • How people believe, how people blame the child.
  • 00:10:48.104 --> 00:10:52.508
  • Well, first of all, it depends on what you mean
  • 00:10:53.409 --> 00:10:55.177
  • By luring out if the child was being lured out to be killed.
  • 00:10:55.177 --> 00:10:58.914
  • And yes, that's that's a different analysis.
  • 00:10:58.914 --> 00:11:01.550
  • But if the child was being lured out
  • 00:11:01.550 --> 00:11:03.152
  • Just to hook up, get to know one another
  • 00:11:03.152 --> 00:11:05.421
  • And sort of like that romeo and.
  • 00:11:05.421 --> 00:11:07.123
  • Juliet at 230 in the morning to be,
  • 00:11:07.123 --> 00:11:09.959
  • I've told many a jury, nothing good happens after midnight.
  • 00:11:09.959 --> 00:11:13.796
  • If you're getting lured out of your bedroom
  • 00:11:13.796 --> 00:11:16.732
  • With your parents at midnight, it is not for anything.
  • 00:11:16.732 --> 00:11:20.336
  • Good debate.
  • 00:11:20.336 --> 00:11:21.937
  • I mean, do you have children?
  • 00:11:21.937 --> 00:11:23.506
  • For pete's sake?
  • 00:11:23.506 --> 00:11:25.541
  • No, i understand, no.
  • 00:11:25.541 --> 00:11:26.709
  • And this is exactly why.
  • 00:11:26.709 --> 00:11:28.344
  • Well, there you go.
  • 00:11:28.344 --> 00:11:29.245
  • Why did i even ask you a question?
  • 00:11:29.245 --> 00:11:32.181
  • Okay.
  • 00:11:32.181 --> 00:11:33.048
  • You know, when you do have children,
  • 00:11:33.048 --> 00:11:34.316
  • You're going to understand that there's no good reason for them
  • 00:11:34.316 --> 00:11:37.286
  • To be leaving the home at midnight.
  • 00:11:37.286 --> 00:11:40.389
  • They were lured, and it's not for a good reason.
  • 00:11:40.389 --> 00:11:42.491
  • Want to go have milk and cookies?
  • 00:11:42.491 --> 00:11:45.561
  • The luring takes two.
  • 00:11:46.061 --> 00:11:47.763
  • The child could have said no.
  • 00:11:47.763 --> 00:11:49.031
  • I've got ten years each other.
  • 00:11:49.031 --> 00:11:50.733
  • I've got a 13 year old girl.
  • 00:11:50.733 --> 00:11:52.635
  • I need to get to know somebody at 2:30 a.m..
  • 00:11:52.635 --> 00:11:56.005
  • Welcome to the 21st century.
  • 00:11:56.005 --> 00:11:57.840
  • Where do you think we are
  • 00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:58.741
  • Nowadays? it's communicate online.
  • 00:11:58.741 --> 00:12:01.343
  • They communicate through their phones.
  • 00:12:01.343 --> 00:12:03.112
  • They want to hook up.
  • 00:12:03.112 --> 00:12:04.013
  • They want to get to know one another.
  • 00:12:04.013 --> 00:12:05.614
  • And mom and dad certainly not going to allow it at that hour.
  • 00:12:05.614 --> 00:12:08.484
  • So what do they do? they sneak out.
  • 00:12:08.484 --> 00:12:10.753
  • You know, the real question is.
  • 00:12:10.753 --> 00:12:12.354
  • Maybe in your world, maybe you snuck out at 2 a.m.,
  • 00:12:12.354 --> 00:12:17.293
  • But that's not what we're talking about.
  • 00:12:17.293 --> 00:12:19.428
  • Yes, i know about cell phones.
  • 00:12:19.428 --> 00:12:21.197
  • I bought my children's cell phones.
  • 00:12:21.197 --> 00:12:22.998
  • I pay the monthly bill for their cell phones.
  • 00:12:22.998 --> 00:12:25.167
  • Yes, i know about cell phones, but that's a whole nother thing.
  • 00:12:25.167 --> 00:12:30.239
  • Having a cell phone
  • 00:12:30.239 --> 00:12:31.473
  • And getting lured out of your home
  • 00:12:31.473 --> 00:12:33.609
  • Where you're everybody's asleep and you have to sneak out
  • 00:12:33.609 --> 00:12:37.046
  • At 12 midnight.
  • 00:12:37.046 --> 00:12:38.214
  • That is luring. you know what?
  • 00:12:38.214 --> 00:12:40.783
  • I can't talk to you, jory krause.
  • 00:12:40.783 --> 00:12:43.252
  • And don't enjoy crossing.
  • 00:12:43.252 --> 00:12:44.420
  • Joining us, our psychologist,
  • 00:12:44.420 --> 00:12:47.122
  • Faculty at saint louis university and consultant
  • 00:12:47.122 --> 00:12:49.658
  • With the blue wall institute, author of operation s.o.s..
  • 00:12:49.658 --> 00:12:53.996
  • Doctor joy, could you talk some sense into dubé?
  • 00:12:53.996 --> 00:12:56.966
  • There's no good reason.
  • 00:12:56.966 --> 00:12:59.101
  • No innocent reason for a child.
  • 00:12:59.101 --> 00:13:01.904
  • Just 13.
  • 00:13:01.904 --> 00:13:02.938
  • She just turned 13, for pete's sake, to get lured
  • 00:13:02.938 --> 00:13:05.875
  • Out of her home with her parents at midnight.
  • 00:13:05.875 --> 00:13:10.913
  • I agree, there's no
  • 00:13:11.380 --> 00:13:12.481
  • Good reason, but there is a reason.
  • 00:13:12.481 --> 00:13:15.718
  • Some motivation, some enhancement.
  • 00:13:15.718 --> 00:13:17.820
  • Something to get her out of that home.
  • 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.956
  • The big key will be, you know, you get more information
  • 00:13:22.024 --> 00:13:25.427
  • Off of that phone.
  • 00:13:25.427 --> 00:13:26.662
  • If there were text messages or if he got close to the home,
  • 00:13:26.662 --> 00:13:30.833
  • The home wi-fi would register on his phone.
  • 00:13:30.833 --> 00:13:33.936
  • There's got to be
  • 00:13:33.936 --> 00:13:34.970
  • Some motivation, and that's got to be documented.
  • 00:13:34.970 --> 00:13:38.440
  • And it can be documented through that phone.
  • 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:42.004
  • And it can be documented through that phone.
  • 00:13:42.004 --> 00:13:42.445
  • Tennessee teen savannah
  • 00:13:42.946 --> 00:13:44.781
  • Copeland had vanished suddenly during the night,
  • 00:13:44.781 --> 00:13:47.884
  • And her father has not heard from her for hours.
  • 00:13:47.884 --> 00:13:51.021
  • Where is 13 year old tennessee cheerleader savannah.
  • 00:13:51.021 --> 00:13:55.792
  • And then mom and dad's worst nightmare?
  • 00:13:55.792 --> 00:13:58.995
  • Worst nightmare comes true.
  • 00:13:58.995 --> 00:14:02.532
  • At around 445 this afternoon
  • 00:14:02.532 --> 00:14:05.835
  • Through dispatch, we received a call on a possible,
  • 00:14:05.835 --> 00:14:11.775
  • Deceased body on a
  • 00:14:12.208 --> 00:14:14.144
  • Trail over in broad acres subdivision.
  • 00:14:14.144 --> 00:14:17.514
  • Our officers responded to that.
  • 00:14:18.148 --> 00:14:20.417
  • Did find a body.
  • 00:14:20.417 --> 00:14:21.618
  • Reaching out to the knox county sheriff's office.
  • 00:14:21.618 --> 00:14:23.954
  • Deputies begin searching for savannah copeland.
  • 00:14:23.954 --> 00:14:26.356
  • Nearly 12 hours after deputies are called in to help search
  • 00:14:26.356 --> 00:14:29.592
  • Michael copeland,
  • 00:14:29.592 --> 00:14:30.794
  • Hear sirens and says he knew they had to be for savannah,
  • 00:14:30.794 --> 00:14:33.663
  • A teen walking along a popular trail
  • 00:14:33.663 --> 00:14:35.799
  • That runs behind a public swimming pool
  • 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:37.634
  • In the broad acres neighborhood in powell,
  • 00:14:37.634 --> 00:14:39.703
  • Finds the lifeless body of savannah copeland.
  • 00:14:39.703 --> 00:14:42.339
  • Savannah copeland has been stabbed multiple times
  • 00:14:42.339 --> 00:14:44.908
  • By what appears to be a small knife
  • 00:14:44.908 --> 00:14:46.910
  • And left to bleed to death alone on the dirt trail.
  • 00:14:46.910 --> 00:14:50.680
  • You were hearing our friend, sheriff tom spangler
  • 00:14:50.680 --> 00:14:53.917
  • With the knox county, tennessee
  • 00:14:53.917 --> 00:14:55.218
  • Sheriff's office, along with our friends at
  • 00:14:55.218 --> 00:14:57.721
  • 86 to doctor kendall crowns, joining us,
  • 00:14:57.721 --> 00:15:01.691
  • Renowned chief medical examiner at tarrant county.
  • 00:15:01.691 --> 00:15:04.928
  • That's fort
  • 00:15:04.928 --> 00:15:05.595
  • Worth, an esteemed lecturer
  • 00:15:05.595 --> 00:15:07.397
  • At the burnett school of medicine at tcu.
  • 00:15:07.397 --> 00:15:10.700
  • Doctor crowns, thank you for being with us.
  • 00:15:10.700 --> 00:15:12.369
  • How can you look at multiple stabbings
  • 00:15:12.369 --> 00:15:16.573
  • And determine a
  • 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:19.042
  • When there's overlapping stabs?
  • 00:15:19.042 --> 00:15:21.845
  • How many times the victim has been stabbed and two
  • 00:15:21.845 --> 00:15:27.150
  • That the
  • 00:15:27.417 --> 00:15:28.318
  • Knife is the the cutting instrument was,
  • 00:15:28.318 --> 00:15:32.055
  • As it has said been said the shallow.
  • 00:15:32.055 --> 00:15:36.226
  • So you can look at the stab wounds and get an actual count.
  • 00:15:37.394 --> 00:15:41.164
  • Sometimes when they criss cross an overlap,
  • 00:15:41.164 --> 00:15:43.233
  • You can still get an idea
  • 00:15:43.233 --> 00:15:44.434
  • Based on how the other stab wounds,
  • 00:15:44.434 --> 00:15:46.603
  • What the stab wounds would look like,
  • 00:15:46.603 --> 00:15:48.705
  • And kind of separate out the ones that have criss cross
  • 00:15:48.705 --> 00:15:51.274
  • Or overlapped and get an approximate account account.
  • 00:15:51.274 --> 00:15:56.312
  • Now determining whether the, knife is a short
  • 00:15:56.312 --> 00:15:59.516
  • Blade or a long blade can be difficult
  • 00:15:59.516 --> 00:16:01.651
  • Because the body has what is called
  • 00:16:01.651 --> 00:16:03.553
  • Elasticity, or when you push in and it can deform a little bit.
  • 00:16:03.553 --> 00:16:07.457
  • And so you can shove a short bladed knife in deeper than,
  • 00:16:07.457 --> 00:16:11.928
  • The actual length of the blade.
  • 00:16:11.928 --> 00:16:13.496
  • So determining
  • 00:16:13.496 --> 00:16:14.631
  • The overall blade length sometimes can be difficult,
  • 00:16:14.631 --> 00:16:17.767
  • But you can get a
  • 00:16:17.767 --> 00:16:19.035
  • Rough approximation depending on the depth of the stab wound.
  • 00:16:19.035 --> 00:16:22.872
  • Back to the overlapping stab wounds
  • 00:16:22.872 --> 00:16:27.143
  • And i encounter this in the investigation
  • 00:16:27.143 --> 00:16:31.181
  • In the stabbing death of travis alexander
  • 00:16:31.181 --> 00:16:34.451
  • By jodi arias.
  • 00:16:34.784 --> 00:16:37.687
  • May she rot in hell.
  • 00:16:37.687 --> 00:16:39.422
  • He was stabbed,
  • 00:16:39.422 --> 00:16:40.423
  • And it was argued over and over and over
  • 00:16:40.423 --> 00:16:42.826
  • How many times travis had been stabbed
  • 00:16:42.826 --> 00:16:44.861
  • Before he was shot in the head.
  • 00:16:44.861 --> 00:16:46.696
  • Some authorities said 27,
  • 00:16:47.263 --> 00:16:49.666
  • 28, 29 and 30 times
  • 00:16:49.666 --> 00:16:53.670
  • Due to overlapping stab wounds
  • 00:16:53.670 --> 00:16:58.541
  • Where you are in a frenzy stab mode and you stab repeatedly,
  • 00:16:58.541 --> 00:17:04.514
  • And some of the stab wounds are actually exactly
  • 00:17:04.514 --> 00:17:07.617
  • Where other stab wounds are now.
  • 00:17:07.617 --> 00:17:09.953
  • The pliability of human flesh
  • 00:17:09.953 --> 00:17:13.523
  • Also lends to confusion
  • 00:17:14.023 --> 00:17:17.727
  • In determining how many stab wounds explain.
  • 00:17:17.727 --> 00:17:21.631
  • So those are what is called mes lines.
  • 00:17:22.465 --> 00:17:25.568
  • That's what.
  • 00:17:25.568 --> 00:17:26.469
  • When your surgeon is doing an operation,
  • 00:17:26.469 --> 00:17:28.104
  • They try to cut along those
  • 00:17:28.104 --> 00:17:29.706
  • Lines to make it so the skin doesn't pull apart
  • 00:17:29.706 --> 00:17:33.243
  • And creates less of a scar.
  • 00:17:33.243 --> 00:17:35.778
  • So when you're being stabbed, they're not concerned about
  • 00:17:35.778 --> 00:17:38.915
  • Your cosmetics.
  • 00:17:38.915 --> 00:17:39.983
  • So they'll go against
  • 00:17:39.983 --> 00:17:41.084
  • These lines and the the skin itself will pull apart
  • 00:17:41.084 --> 00:17:44.787
  • And make the wounds look gaping or enlarged
  • 00:17:44.787 --> 00:17:47.724
  • Based on that, pulling apart of the skin.
  • 00:17:47.724 --> 00:17:50.660
  • And again, also with stab wounds, you have to consider the
  • 00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:53.763
  • They don't necessarily just stick the knife in,
  • 00:17:53.763 --> 00:17:55.965
  • But they will also stick it in and then pull it
  • 00:17:55.965 --> 00:17:58.067
  • Down, making large gaping holes as well.
  • 00:17:58.067 --> 00:18:01.104
  • So they can be very confusing
  • 00:18:01.104 --> 00:18:02.672
  • When you get multiple stab wounds of this nature,
  • 00:18:02.672 --> 00:18:05.775
  • Which we generally call
  • 00:18:05.775 --> 00:18:07.243
  • Overkill, because you don't need to stab
  • 00:18:07.243 --> 00:18:09.913
  • Someone that many times to kill them.
  • 00:18:09.913 --> 00:18:11.714
  • In this case, it was determined very quickly that a small
  • 00:18:11.714 --> 00:18:15.985
  • Knife was used to murder the 13 year
  • 00:18:15.985 --> 00:18:19.622
  • Old cheerleader, savannah copeland. and let me add,
  • 00:18:19.622 --> 00:18:22.892
  • She has a twin brother.
  • 00:18:23.393 --> 00:18:25.962
  • She has two brothers.
  • 00:18:25.962 --> 00:18:29.065
  • We think their names twin brother casey
  • 00:18:29.065 --> 00:18:32.435
  • And other brother britton, as i recall.
  • 00:18:32.435 --> 00:18:35.939
  • That said,
  • 00:18:36.239 --> 00:18:38.174
  • A special bond between twins
  • 00:18:38.174 --> 00:18:40.743
  • Is like no other boy girl twins
  • 00:18:40.743 --> 00:18:44.714
  • And another brother.
  • 00:18:45.181 --> 00:18:48.585
  • That said,
  • 00:18:48.885 --> 00:18:50.720
  • Back to the number of stabbings and the assumption
  • 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.824
  • That a small knife was used,
  • 00:18:54.824 --> 00:18:57.827
  • A small knife.
  • 00:18:58.161 --> 00:19:01.231
  • This is probative as well.
  • 00:19:01.231 --> 00:19:03.032
  • And i'll explain later.
  • 00:19:03.032 --> 00:19:05.535
  • A small knife is deemed to be
  • 00:19:05.535 --> 00:19:07.537
  • 2 to 6in long.
  • 00:19:07.537 --> 00:19:11.140
  • Okay.
  • 00:19:11.374 --> 00:19:12.642
  • Could that be a pocket knife?
  • 00:19:12.642 --> 00:19:16.379
  • Doctor kimball crowns?
  • 00:19:16.379 --> 00:19:18.948
  • Yes, i could definitely be a pocket knife.
  • 00:19:18.948 --> 00:19:20.950
  • Usually they're small blades that are, opened in six.
  • 00:19:20.950 --> 00:19:25.488
  • Another issue, doctor jenna crowns.
  • 00:19:25.488 --> 00:19:27.423
  • And, believe me, all of this is critical
  • 00:19:27.423 --> 00:19:31.160
  • As it comes to proving this case.
  • 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.896
  • We know all about brian ko burger, right?
  • 00:19:33.896 --> 00:19:36.332
  • We wish we didn't, but we did.
  • 00:19:36.332 --> 00:19:38.668
  • In that case, the killer
  • 00:19:38.668 --> 00:19:41.104
  • Who the state says is brian k burger, murdered four people.
  • 00:19:41.104 --> 00:19:45.074
  • And what appeared to be a frenzied stabbing
  • 00:19:45.074 --> 00:19:47.110
  • Because they were slashed and stabbed multiple times.
  • 00:19:47.110 --> 00:19:50.113
  • It was anything but a frenzied stabbing.
  • 00:19:50.113 --> 00:19:52.782
  • In that case, a fixed blade knife was used.
  • 00:19:52.782 --> 00:19:56.986
  • How is that different from a pocket knife?
  • 00:19:56.986 --> 00:20:00.156
  • And how can you tell from the stab wounds that a fixed blade
  • 00:20:00.156 --> 00:20:04.794
  • Or a shallow knife, such as a pocket knife, was used?
  • 00:20:04.794 --> 00:20:07.897
  • How can you differentiate that this is important.
  • 00:20:07.897 --> 00:20:11.734
  • So pocket knives, when you open them
  • 00:20:12.535 --> 00:20:14.971
  • Up, will become fixed at the end when you lock it into place.
  • 00:20:14.971 --> 00:20:18.374
  • So it will be a fixed blade at that point.
  • 00:20:18.374 --> 00:20:20.877
  • One thing you can look for with a pocket knife,
  • 00:20:20.877 --> 00:20:23.012
  • If it's driven all the way into the hilt,
  • 00:20:23.012 --> 00:20:25.715
  • It will leave a basically an abrasion, kind
  • 00:20:25.715 --> 00:20:29.185
  • Of a semi-circular abrasion around the stab wound itself.
  • 00:20:29.185 --> 00:20:32.989
  • If you're using a larger fixed blade knife,
  • 00:20:32.989 --> 00:20:36.192
  • You can
  • 00:20:36.426 --> 00:20:37.293
  • You can get similar, similar injuries
  • 00:20:37.293 --> 00:20:39.662
  • When the knife is shoved in all the way, again
  • 00:20:39.662 --> 00:20:41.597
  • To the hilt of a cross guard, whatever you want to say.
  • 00:20:41.597 --> 00:20:44.233
  • And it will leave, a pattern, abrasion marks on there.
  • 00:20:44.233 --> 00:20:48.137
  • So what you're looking for with the pocket knife is
  • 00:20:48.137 --> 00:20:51.674
  • You look for those characteristics,
  • 00:20:51.674 --> 00:20:53.176
  • Kind of abrasions around the side of the stab wound.
  • 00:20:53.176 --> 00:20:56.612
  • Whereas if you have a large, fixed knife, you look for the,
  • 00:20:56.612 --> 00:20:59.582
  • The, abrasions from the cross guard itself.
  • 00:20:59.582 --> 00:21:05.005
  • The, abrasions from the cross guard itself.
  • 00:21:05.005 --> 00:21:06.724
  • A gruesome
  • 00:21:07.024 --> 00:21:07.891
  • Discovery along a popular trail path.
  • 00:21:07.891 --> 00:21:10.828
  • 13 year old savannah copeland's body has been found
  • 00:21:10.828 --> 00:21:14.198
  • Brutally stabbed just hours after she's gone missing.
  • 00:21:14.198 --> 00:21:18.335
  • Who killed the 13 year old athlete.
  • 00:21:18.335 --> 00:21:22.272
  • Who lured a 13 year old little girl out of her home
  • 00:21:22.272 --> 00:21:26.543
  • While her parents were sleeping after midnight?
  • 00:21:26.543 --> 00:21:30.514
  • Now to listen to defense attorney phillip dubay,
  • 00:21:30.514 --> 00:21:33.050
  • Who does not have children, i might add, that's just normal.
  • 00:21:33.050 --> 00:21:36.520
  • It's not normal.
  • 00:21:36.520 --> 00:21:38.489
  • It is normal for teens, even children,
  • 00:21:38.489 --> 00:21:41.191
  • To communicate on their phones and their tablets.
  • 00:21:41.191 --> 00:21:43.394
  • But getting lured out of your home after midnight
  • 00:21:43.394 --> 00:21:47.398
  • Or at any time is not normal.
  • 00:21:47.398 --> 00:21:51.368
  • And why would you do that after midnight?
  • 00:21:51.368 --> 00:21:54.071
  • So the parents can't know unless it was for a nefarious reason?
  • 00:21:54.071 --> 00:21:59.143
  • We're talking about a 13 year old little girl just turned
  • 00:21:59.143 --> 00:22:04.181
  • One of a set of twins
  • 00:22:04.681 --> 00:22:07.484
  • Her brother and other siblings left behind.
  • 00:22:07.484 --> 00:22:11.789
  • To add to the tragedy,
  • 00:22:11.789 --> 00:22:14.525
  • If that can even be imagined,
  • 00:22:14.525 --> 00:22:17.828
  • The perp is identified.
  • 00:22:17.828 --> 00:22:20.464
  • Tonight, just around 9 p.m., detectives identified
  • 00:22:20.464 --> 00:22:23.133
  • A person of interest and arrested a 15 year old male
  • 00:22:23.133 --> 00:22:28.071
  • And is being charged with second degree murder
  • 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.476
  • In the death of a.
  • 00:22:32.476 --> 00:22:36.513
  • 13 year old young lady.
  • 00:22:37.014 --> 00:22:40.384
  • A 15 year old boy just turned.
  • 00:22:40.984 --> 00:22:44.822
  • By the way, you were just hearing sheriff tom spangler
  • 00:22:44.822 --> 00:22:48.325
  • Of knox county, tennessee, sheriff's office from w 86.
  • 00:22:48.325 --> 00:22:52.529
  • But the dad, savannah's father, weighs in.
  • 00:22:52.529 --> 00:22:57.334
  • Listen.
  • 00:22:57.568 --> 00:22:58.735
  • It was a betrayal of trust.
  • 00:22:58.735 --> 00:23:01.038
  • I'm angry at this kid's family
  • 00:23:01.038 --> 00:23:04.308
  • That i have opinions about. now.
  • 00:23:04.308 --> 00:23:08.445
  • Not only a 15 year old boy
  • 00:23:09.012 --> 00:23:12.015
  • Just turned 15, but also known to the family.
  • 00:23:12.015 --> 00:23:16.620
  • A family friend.
  • 00:23:16.620 --> 00:23:18.555
  • You heard michael
  • 00:23:18.555 --> 00:23:19.756
  • Copeland, savannah's dad, speaking to our friends at w 86.
  • 00:23:19.756 --> 00:23:23.527
  • He calls it a betrayal of trust.
  • 00:23:23.527 --> 00:23:26.697
  • He said he's angry
  • 00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:28.765
  • At the boys, a simile that he now has opinions about.
  • 00:23:28.765 --> 00:23:33.070
  • I'd like to hear what those opinions are.
  • 00:23:33.070 --> 00:23:35.005
  • Why was the boy out at that time of night?
  • 00:23:35.005 --> 00:23:37.808
  • Why was he luring a little girl?
  • 00:23:37.808 --> 00:23:40.644
  • He just turned 13 out of her home.
  • 00:23:40.644 --> 00:23:44.147
  • So many questions swirling right now,
  • 00:23:44.147 --> 00:23:46.683
  • But i want to circle back to doctor kendall crowns.
  • 00:23:46.683 --> 00:23:49.386
  • Joining us, medical examiner, tarrant county chief
  • 00:23:49.386 --> 00:23:52.623
  • Medical examiner at tarrant county.
  • 00:23:52.623 --> 00:23:55.659
  • Savannah, a 13 year old little girl bled out.
  • 00:23:55.659 --> 00:24:00.197
  • She didn't get apparently stabbed in the heart,
  • 00:24:00.197 --> 00:24:03.800
  • So she died instantly.
  • 00:24:03.800 --> 00:24:05.435
  • She laid there in the middle of the night,
  • 00:24:05.435 --> 00:24:09.006
  • All alone in the woods as her life's
  • 00:24:09.006 --> 00:24:12.776
  • Blood slipped out of her.
  • 00:24:12.776 --> 00:24:16.547
  • How long would it have taken her to die?
  • 00:24:16.547 --> 00:24:20.584
  • Doctor kendall crowns.
  • 00:24:20.584 --> 00:24:22.219
  • If she's not stabbed in the heart,
  • 00:24:22.986 --> 00:24:24.755
  • It depends on what vessel is here.
  • 00:24:24.755 --> 00:24:26.790
  • How many times she's stabbed.
  • 00:24:26.790 --> 00:24:28.659
  • It can be minutes to anywhere from a few minutes
  • 00:24:28.659 --> 00:24:32.496
  • To 10 to 15 minutes, depending on what gets stabbed.
  • 00:24:32.496 --> 00:24:35.966
  • Veteran trial lawyer phillip dubay,
  • 00:24:35.966 --> 00:24:37.634
  • Defense attorney out of la.
  • 00:24:37.634 --> 00:24:39.436
  • So this may have been a frenzy attack with so many stab wounds.
  • 00:24:39.436 --> 00:24:43.807
  • But given
  • 00:24:44.107 --> 00:24:46.443
  • The probative evidence, the evidence we're
  • 00:24:46.443 --> 00:24:48.912
  • Going to find out at autopsy, he would have left her there
  • 00:24:48.912 --> 00:24:54.851
  • On the ground in the woods at 2:30 a.m.,
  • 00:24:54.851 --> 00:24:59.323
  • All alone, and walked away as she died.
  • 00:24:59.323 --> 00:25:05.095
  • Thoughts?
  • 00:25:05.395 --> 00:25:07.331
  • Well, first of all, you're asking a 15 year old to think
  • 00:25:07.331 --> 00:25:09.866
  • Like an adult and to render aid and to try to get help.
  • 00:25:09.866 --> 00:25:12.936
  • Now, i'm asking you your opinion on that.
  • 00:25:12.936 --> 00:25:16.340
  • Is it anything but cold blood?
  • 00:25:16.340 --> 00:25:18.609
  • Because he could have called for help to save her,
  • 00:25:18.609 --> 00:25:21.545
  • But he didn't.
  • 00:25:21.545 --> 00:25:22.846
  • Now, one of the clues
  • 00:25:23.347 --> 00:25:24.514
  • Is that the prosecution filed this as a second degree.
  • 00:25:24.514 --> 00:25:27.551
  • A first degree in tennessee
  • 00:25:27.551 --> 00:25:28.819
  • Would be a premeditated ted killing.
  • 00:25:28.819 --> 00:25:31.888
  • This was clearly unpremeditated,
  • 00:25:31.888 --> 00:25:35.292
  • Which is probably why they filed it as a second.
  • 00:25:35.292 --> 00:25:38.195
  • If it were truly alluring.
  • 00:25:38.195 --> 00:25:39.963
  • It showed he had murder on his mind by keeping,
  • 00:25:39.963 --> 00:25:43.900
  • An unsure, shallow folding knife on his person.
  • 00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:46.803
  • And that clearly shows an intent to kill.
  • 00:25:46.803 --> 00:25:49.039
  • It sounds like something erupted.
  • 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:50.941
  • There was some type of paroxysm, if you will, of fury out on
  • 00:25:50.941 --> 00:25:54.544
  • That dirt trail
  • 00:25:54.544 --> 00:25:55.746
  • Where he suddenly erupted in blind rage and stabbed her up.
  • 00:25:55.746 --> 00:25:59.483
  • But i don't think it was planned.
  • 00:25:59.483 --> 00:26:01.518
  • I think it was spur of the moment,
  • 00:26:01.518 --> 00:26:03.820
  • Which is why they're going to do a transfer hearing,
  • 00:26:03.820 --> 00:26:06.056
  • At which time the judge will decide
  • 00:26:06.056 --> 00:26:07.557
  • If this kid stands trial as an adult.
  • 00:26:07.557 --> 00:26:11.361
  • I would like to correct you.
  • 00:26:11.962 --> 00:26:14.131
  • In tennessee, the law defines second degree murder
  • 00:26:14.131 --> 00:26:18.835
  • As one of two types, and one of those types is a knowing
  • 00:26:18.835 --> 00:26:23.006
  • Killing of another repeat
  • 00:26:23.006 --> 00:26:26.977
  • A knowing killing of another.
  • 00:26:26.977 --> 00:26:30.514
  • It is not a voluntary manslaughter
  • 00:26:30.514 --> 00:26:33.750
  • Such as you are describing when under the law.
  • 00:26:33.750 --> 00:26:36.987
  • When we hear the words knowing
  • 00:26:36.987 --> 00:26:39.423
  • That means that you have a mens rea,
  • 00:26:39.423 --> 00:26:42.793
  • That you have an intent,
  • 00:26:43.326 --> 00:26:46.029
  • A knowledge of what you're doing, a knowing killing.
  • 00:26:46.029 --> 00:26:50.534
  • This is not,
  • 00:26:50.534 --> 00:26:53.070
  • Voluntary manslaughter is not a dui
  • 00:26:53.070 --> 00:26:55.372
  • Where you get drunk,
  • 00:26:55.372 --> 00:26:56.506
  • But you did not intent on actually killing somebody.
  • 00:26:56.506 --> 00:27:00.277
  • This is a knowing killing
  • 00:27:00.277 --> 00:27:03.313
  • As you just try to pull the wool over my eyes.
  • 00:27:03.313 --> 00:27:06.550
  • And tennessee.
  • 00:27:06.883 --> 00:27:07.984
  • It's a knowing killing. that's murder too.
  • 00:27:07.984 --> 00:27:10.287
  • You know.
  • 00:27:10.287 --> 00:27:11.254
  • I understand, but remember, there's two ways
  • 00:27:11.254 --> 00:27:12.856
  • You can do it explicitly or implicitly.
  • 00:27:12.856 --> 00:27:15.592
  • If he stabbed her 4 or 5 times and kept doing it. yes.
  • 00:27:15.592 --> 00:27:19.129
  • It is so reckless that anybody could infer
  • 00:27:19.129 --> 00:27:22.833
  • Subjectively and objectively an intent to kill without
  • 00:27:22.833 --> 00:27:26.069
  • Actually uttering the words, i am going to take you out.
  • 00:27:26.069 --> 00:27:29.639
  • Your life is over.
  • 00:27:29.639 --> 00:27:31.041
  • The conduct of engaging and repeated stabbing suggests
  • 00:27:31.041 --> 00:27:34.578
  • That even lies at intent to kill.
  • 00:27:34.578 --> 00:27:38.181
  • Who do you think you're talking to?
  • 00:27:38.915 --> 00:27:40.917
  • Do you think i just saw a turnip truck?
  • 00:27:40.917 --> 00:27:43.653
  • I have tried many, many homicides.
  • 00:27:43.653 --> 00:27:46.990
  • Don't try to muddy the water by spouting out the definitions
  • 00:27:46.990 --> 00:27:51.194
  • Under the law of implicit and express intent.
  • 00:27:51.194 --> 00:27:54.865
  • Because the law says murder can be proved by implicit evidence.
  • 00:27:54.865 --> 00:28:00.670
  • Implicit intent, or express now implicit.
  • 00:28:00.670 --> 00:28:06.076
  • Let me start with express.
  • 00:28:06.076 --> 00:28:07.744
  • That's when i say, deb,
  • 00:28:07.744 --> 00:28:09.446
  • I'm killing you now, and then i shoot you.
  • 00:28:09.446 --> 00:28:12.315
  • My words have expressly shown i intend to kill you.
  • 00:28:12.315 --> 00:28:17.687
  • Implicit means the jury can judge by the actions
  • 00:28:17.687 --> 00:28:22.225
  • Or other extrinsic evidence, such as repeat stabbing.
  • 00:28:22.225 --> 00:28:27.397
  • If he did not mean to kill her, then why stab her
  • 00:28:27.397 --> 00:28:30.400
  • Over and over and over and leave her to bleed out dead,
  • 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.638
  • You know, so all of your legal mumbo jumbo.
  • 00:28:34.638 --> 00:28:37.440
  • Don't even try that with me, dubay,
  • 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:39.743
  • Because the law says intent can be proven implicitly
  • 00:28:39.743 --> 00:28:43.780
  • Or expressly.
  • 00:28:43.780 --> 00:28:45.315
  • And i would argue to a jury that with this many stab wounds,
  • 00:28:45.315 --> 00:28:48.485
  • He had to intend to kill her, which supports
  • 00:28:48.485 --> 00:28:51.688
  • A knowing killing, which is murder, too.
  • 00:28:51.688 --> 00:28:55.192
  • Under tennessee law.
  • 00:28:55.192 --> 00:28:56.827
  • Are you saying that's wrong?
  • 00:28:56.827 --> 00:28:58.829
  • No. but the end game
  • 00:28:59.296 --> 00:29:00.630
  • Here is to spare this kid a transfer to the adult court.
  • 00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:03.900
  • Just wasted 45 of my time.
  • 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:07.404
  • Now, the victory would be to keep the kid in juvenile court
  • 00:29:07.404 --> 00:29:10.473
  • Because he would max out, i think, at age 21.
  • 00:29:10.473 --> 00:29:13.443
  • Whereas if he's found unsuitable for juvenile court,
  • 00:29:13.443 --> 00:29:16.446
  • He'll go upstairs to adult court
  • 00:29:16.446 --> 00:29:18.315
  • Where he could, in theory, do up to 60 years.
  • 00:29:18.315 --> 00:29:21.418
  • And by the way,
  • 00:29:21.418 --> 00:29:22.452
  • It was brilliant for the prosecution not to file
  • 00:29:22.452 --> 00:29:24.554
  • This as the first degree because,
  • 00:29:24.554 --> 00:29:27.357
  • The jury could come back or the court could
  • 00:29:27.357 --> 00:29:29.326
  • Come back with a life without parole type sentence.
  • 00:29:29.326 --> 00:29:32.128
  • So at some point, this young man will get out.
  • 00:29:32.128 --> 00:29:36.002
  • A 15 year old boy is taken into custody
  • 00:29:36.734 --> 00:29:39.337
  • After the brutal stabbing
  • 00:29:39.337 --> 00:29:40.671
  • Death of 13 year old tennessee cheerleader savannah copeland.
  • 00:29:40.671 --> 00:29:44.876
  • Investigators are not saying what led them to arrest
  • 00:29:44.876 --> 00:29:47.378
  • 15 year old malachi harris for the murder of savannah copeland.
  • 00:29:47.378 --> 00:29:51.115
  • Harris is someone the copeland family knows,
  • 00:29:51.115 --> 00:29:53.317
  • Someone they have befriended.
  • 00:29:53.317 --> 00:29:54.785
  • Investigators haven't said what the motive
  • 00:29:54.785 --> 00:29:56.787
  • For the murder is yet, but malachi harris is charged
  • 00:29:56.787 --> 00:29:59.423
  • With second degree murder in the death of the teen.
  • 00:29:59.423 --> 00:30:02.493
  • To lauren coughlan, investigative reporter.
  • 00:30:03.394 --> 00:30:05.296
  • Lauren, explain to me how she was found.
  • 00:30:05.296 --> 00:30:09.133
  • How was 13 year old savannah copeland sound.
  • 00:30:09.133 --> 00:30:12.703
  • While her parents were searching for her?
  • 00:30:12.703 --> 00:30:14.906
  • Nancy.
  • 00:30:14.906 --> 00:30:15.706
  • They heard sirens in the distance
  • 00:30:15.706 --> 00:30:18.876
  • And they thought to themselves, oh my gosh, this can't be good.
  • 00:30:18.876 --> 00:30:22.914
  • And unfortunately, while a teen was walking the trail,
  • 00:30:22.914 --> 00:30:26.651
  • She came across savannah's body and called the authorities.
  • 00:30:26.651 --> 00:30:31.055
  • I'm wondering how long this little girl suffered.
  • 00:30:31.055 --> 00:30:34.926
  • A petition released by the court accuses
  • 00:30:34.926 --> 00:30:38.663
  • 15 year old malachi harris of stabbing savannah
  • 00:30:38.663 --> 00:30:42.833
  • Multiple times with a pocket knife
  • 00:30:42.833 --> 00:30:45.536
  • He took with him that night when he lured her out of her home
  • 00:30:45.536 --> 00:30:49.674
  • After midnight, leaving her alone on the trail,
  • 00:30:49.674 --> 00:30:52.944
  • Telling no one her body laid there
  • 00:30:52.944 --> 00:30:56.514
  • Undiscovered until late the next day,
  • 00:30:56.514 --> 00:30:59.784
  • When a teen walking the trail finds her lifeless.
  • 00:30:59.784 --> 00:31:05.423
  • Two. lauren count again, i understand.
  • 00:31:06.257 --> 00:31:09.593
  • Prosecutors announced they will try
  • 00:31:09.593 --> 00:31:13.230
  • Malachi harris as an adult.
  • 00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:17.201
  • They want to.
  • 00:31:17.568 --> 00:31:18.636
  • And on january 14th, there is going to be
  • 00:31:18.636 --> 00:31:22.239
  • A hearing that will determine if he will be tried as an adult.
  • 00:31:22.239 --> 00:31:25.576
  • But in the meantime, he is being held at the juvenile
  • 00:31:25.576 --> 00:31:30.414
  • Detention center that is called richard l been in knoxville
  • 00:31:30.414 --> 00:31:34.318
  • And that nancy is not a happy place.
  • 00:31:34.318 --> 00:31:38.489
  • To tell it to be a high profile defense lawyer
  • 00:31:38.489 --> 00:31:41.625
  • Or lawyer out of l.a.
  • 00:31:41.625 --> 00:31:43.728
  • They, as many jurisdictions call it, bind over
  • 00:31:43.728 --> 00:31:46.797
  • Process is when a juvenile is, quote,
  • 00:31:46.797 --> 00:31:50.801
  • Bound over or transferred to adult superior court.
  • 00:31:50.801 --> 00:31:55.973
  • In most jurisdictions, as there is a semblance
  • 00:31:56.874 --> 00:32:00.378
  • Of the seven deadly seven deadly sins
  • 00:32:00.378 --> 00:32:04.615
  • That almost automatically ensure
  • 00:32:04.615 --> 00:32:08.519
  • A teen will be treated as an adult.
  • 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:12.757
  • I want to remind everyone that a teen
  • 00:32:12.757 --> 00:32:14.725
  • Is never put in an adult jail
  • 00:32:14.725 --> 00:32:18.763
  • If they are tried and sentenced as an adult,
  • 00:32:18.763 --> 00:32:21.866
  • They go to a juvenile facility until they become 21.
  • 00:32:21.866 --> 00:32:26.303
  • Then they go into an adult facility.
  • 00:32:26.303 --> 00:32:30.875
  • Back to the bond.
  • 00:32:31.308 --> 00:32:32.176
  • Ever process in the seven deadly?
  • 00:32:32.176 --> 00:32:34.945
  • I should have these memorized.
  • 00:32:34.945 --> 00:32:36.380
  • I don't
  • 00:32:36.380 --> 00:32:37.581
  • The seven deadly guarantee you a bond over to adult court.
  • 00:32:37.581 --> 00:32:41.685
  • Murder, rape, sodomy,
  • 00:32:41.685 --> 00:32:45.356
  • Child molestation, armed robbery,
  • 00:32:45.356 --> 00:32:49.193
  • Arson, and aggravated assault.
  • 00:32:49.794 --> 00:32:53.397
  • Those are the seven aggravated assault
  • 00:32:53.397 --> 00:32:56.033
  • With a weapon such as a knife or a gun.
  • 00:32:56.033 --> 00:33:01.205
  • When you shoot somebody.
  • 00:33:01.205 --> 00:33:02.740
  • Those almost guarantee you'll be treated as an adult.
  • 00:33:02.740 --> 00:33:06.010
  • What's your response to be.
  • 00:33:06.010 --> 00:33:08.612
  • Not in tennessee.
  • 00:33:08.612 --> 00:33:10.247
  • They do it a little bit differently.
  • 00:33:10.247 --> 00:33:11.515
  • Their removal process requires a probable cause finding that,
  • 00:33:11.515 --> 00:33:16.287
  • The crime has been committed and that given the minors age,
  • 00:33:16.287 --> 00:33:20.724
  • Prior rehabilitative efforts,
  • 00:33:20.724 --> 00:33:23.661
  • The sophistication of the crime and a mental health history,
  • 00:33:23.661 --> 00:33:28.099
  • Certainly, whether or not the minor has a,
  • 00:33:28.099 --> 00:33:30.401
  • A criminal record
  • 00:33:30.401 --> 00:33:32.036
  • And that the interests of the community would be served.
  • 00:33:32.036 --> 00:33:35.406
  • The minor can be removed out of juvenile
  • 00:33:35.406 --> 00:33:38.109
  • To the adult court jurisdiction.
  • 00:33:38.109 --> 00:33:40.377
  • And the stakes, as you know, nancy, are quite high.
  • 00:33:40.377 --> 00:33:42.913
  • This young man, under tennessee law, could do between 15
  • 00:33:42.913 --> 00:33:46.517
  • And 16 years in the state prison after the age of 18.
  • 00:33:46.517 --> 00:33:51.122
  • Also, you pointed out, as i expected,
  • 00:33:51.856 --> 00:33:55.626
  • How long a sentence could be if a teen is treated as an adult.
  • 00:33:55.626 --> 00:34:01.198
  • What you do not point out as how light a sentence
  • 00:34:01.198 --> 00:34:04.969
  • Could be in juvenile juvenile juvie court.
  • 00:34:04.969 --> 00:34:08.906
  • July jail.
  • 00:34:08.906 --> 00:34:10.641
  • He could walk free in as little as 18 months,
  • 00:34:10.641 --> 00:34:15.846
  • With time credit for dating back to the time he was arrested
  • 00:34:15.846 --> 00:34:20.584
  • 18 months for multiple stab wounds on a 13 year old girl
  • 00:34:20.584 --> 00:34:26.056
  • Left to bleed out in the woods at 2:30
  • 00:34:26.056 --> 00:34:29.326
  • A.m., away from her mother, away from her father and her home.
  • 00:34:29.326 --> 00:34:33.597
  • I want to talk about premeditation
  • 00:34:33.597 --> 00:34:36.333
  • Because to you, barry hutchinson, joining me, former
  • 00:34:36.333 --> 00:34:39.937
  • Law enforcement now
  • 00:34:39.937 --> 00:34:41.705
  • Chief investigator at baring associates investigations.
  • 00:34:41.705 --> 00:34:44.341
  • Barry, when you lure a little girl
  • 00:34:44.341 --> 00:34:47.745
  • Out of her home, and as i said earlier by somebody,
  • 00:34:47.745 --> 00:34:52.449
  • That's going to be
  • 00:34:52.883 --> 00:34:53.984
  • Determined by looking at text messages, phone calls,
  • 00:34:53.984 --> 00:34:58.189
  • Snaps, you name it,
  • 00:34:58.189 --> 00:35:01.659
  • The intent will be there.
  • 00:35:01.659 --> 00:35:03.227
  • I believe that lure that helped lure her out, but also the fact
  • 00:35:03.227 --> 00:35:07.231
  • That he goes to get her carrying a knife.
  • 00:35:07.231 --> 00:35:11.001
  • So then they don't just go walk around the block,
  • 00:35:11.969 --> 00:35:14.538
  • They don't sneak down to waffle house.
  • 00:35:14.538 --> 00:35:16.273
  • He lures her to a densely wooded
  • 00:35:16.273 --> 00:35:19.777
  • Area, a secret location.
  • 00:35:19.777 --> 00:35:22.913
  • All of that shows intent to me.
  • 00:35:22.913 --> 00:35:27.284
  • I would agree with you 1,000%, nancy.
  • 00:35:28.018 --> 00:35:29.954
  • I mean, he obviously had nefarious ideas.
  • 00:35:29.954 --> 00:35:32.990
  • I mean, why would he be taking her to a remote area?
  • 00:35:32.990 --> 00:35:35.559
  • I mean, to me, it all points to him wanting.
  • 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:37.494
  • To have some kind of a sexual escapade with the young lady.
  • 00:35:37.494 --> 00:35:40.598
  • Maybe her.
  • 00:35:40.598 --> 00:35:41.599
  • Oh my goodness, i just wrote down the word sex.
  • 00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:43.567
  • Question mark lauren karlan, what is his motivation?
  • 00:35:43.567 --> 00:35:47.471
  • Is it because he tried to have sex with a little girl, i.e.
  • 00:35:47.471 --> 00:35:51.242
  • Rape her and she refused?
  • 00:35:51.242 --> 00:35:53.510
  • Or is it something akin to, brian ko burger?
  • 00:35:53.510 --> 00:35:56.914
  • Who wanted the thrill of a kill?
  • 00:35:56.914 --> 00:35:59.350
  • Do we know anything?
  • 00:35:59.350 --> 00:36:00.684
  • Such as was she unclothed?
  • 00:36:00.684 --> 00:36:03.454
  • Nancy, i have been digging and trying to figure out
  • 00:36:03.454 --> 00:36:06.724
  • What his motive would be, and
  • 00:36:06.724 --> 00:36:09.927
  • I come to the same conclusion as you here as as
  • 00:36:09.927 --> 00:36:13.264
  • It was possibly sexually motivated, i.
  • 00:36:13.264 --> 00:36:16.367
  • We don't know if she was found partially clothes or,
  • 00:36:16.367 --> 00:36:20.571
  • Fully clothed, but i did notice
  • 00:36:20.571 --> 00:36:23.340
  • On this young man social media,
  • 00:36:23.340 --> 00:36:26.243
  • He follows the high school band, the powell band.
  • 00:36:26.243 --> 00:36:29.813
  • So, he didn't seem like he was into gang activity
  • 00:36:29.813 --> 00:36:34.251
  • At all, because, you know, that also crossed my mind.
  • 00:36:34.251 --> 00:36:36.954
  • Could this possibly be.
  • 00:36:36.954 --> 00:36:38.289
  • Did you say he was in the band?
  • 00:36:38.289 --> 00:36:40.491
  • Wait, did you say he was in the band?
  • 00:36:40.491 --> 00:36:42.593
  • I do not know if he's in the band,
  • 00:36:42.593 --> 00:36:44.662
  • But on his facebook, he follows only three things.
  • 00:36:44.662 --> 00:36:47.965
  • And one of them is the powell high school band.
  • 00:36:47.965 --> 00:36:52.009
  • And one of them is the powell high school band.
  • 00:36:52.009 --> 00:36:52.303
  • The teen accused of killing savannah copeland,
  • 00:36:53.270 --> 00:36:55.239
  • Has been in court for status hearings at least four times.
  • 00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:58.709
  • The suspect has sat quietly in the court, even as he learned
  • 00:36:58.709 --> 00:37:02.279
  • That state prosecutors intend to try him.
  • 00:37:02.279 --> 00:37:04.515
  • Harris as an adult, judge tim
  • 00:37:04.515 --> 00:37:06.717
  • Irwin has set a transfer hearing for january 14th,
  • 00:37:06.717 --> 00:37:09.987
  • And that is the discovery deadline as well.
  • 00:37:09.987 --> 00:37:12.990
  • Harris court appointed attorney
  • 00:37:12.990 --> 00:37:15.092
  • Josh hedrick has filed a request for discovery.
  • 00:37:15.092 --> 00:37:18.495
  • Assistant district attorney general rachel hill
  • 00:37:18.495 --> 00:37:21.365
  • Told the court that genetic testing
  • 00:37:21.365 --> 00:37:23.300
  • And other forensic
  • 00:37:23.300 --> 00:37:24.435
  • Testing results
  • 00:37:24.435 --> 00:37:25.536
  • May not be back until after the first of the year.
  • 00:37:25.536 --> 00:37:28.305
  • Very little has been released about harris so far.
  • 00:37:28.305 --> 00:37:31.275
  • We know that he was known to the copeland family,
  • 00:37:31.275 --> 00:37:34.211
  • Who has at times welcomed him into their home.
  • 00:37:34.211 --> 00:37:37.514
  • Harris was living with his grandfather
  • 00:37:37.514 --> 00:37:39.283
  • And several siblings at the time of the killing.
  • 00:37:39.283 --> 00:37:41.919
  • Harris is being held in the richard
  • 00:37:41.919 --> 00:37:43.487
  • L bean detention facility.
  • 00:37:43.487 --> 00:37:45.456
  • Not just a teen boy, but a family friend
  • 00:37:45.456 --> 00:37:49.727
  • Who the copeland's had welcomed into their home
  • 00:37:49.727 --> 00:37:52.629
  • On multiple occasions.
  • 00:37:52.629 --> 00:37:55.499
  • The degree of betrayal runs deep
  • 00:37:55.499 --> 00:37:58.769
  • And you hear the father state he is angry
  • 00:37:58.769 --> 00:38:02.806
  • At the perps family as well.
  • 00:38:03.407 --> 00:38:07.411
  • To lauren conlin,
  • 00:38:07.845 --> 00:38:10.481
  • I got so many questions, but explain to me
  • 00:38:10.481 --> 00:38:14.518
  • What this boy's demeanor was in court.
  • 00:38:15.285 --> 00:38:18.822
  • He was described nancy as emotionless,
  • 00:38:18.822 --> 00:38:22.359
  • Kind of looking down at his hands.
  • 00:38:22.359 --> 00:38:24.762
  • He he didn't appear to have any type of remorse.
  • 00:38:24.762 --> 00:38:27.865
  • You know, i'm very curious about the defense, philip dubay,
  • 00:38:27.865 --> 00:38:31.368
  • Because if he claims that it wasn't him,
  • 00:38:31.368 --> 00:38:35.572
  • The fact that they are waiting for genetic testing
  • 00:38:35.572 --> 00:38:38.876
  • Indicates to me that they think they found dna, likely
  • 00:38:38.876 --> 00:38:43.347
  • His dna at the scene or her dna possibly on his clothing,
  • 00:38:43.347 --> 00:38:47.618
  • I don't know, but there is dna that's being tested right now.
  • 00:38:47.618 --> 00:38:51.422
  • And reminds me of codebreaker who almost got away with it.
  • 00:38:51.422 --> 00:38:55.993
  • If he had not left dna on the snap of a knife hilt.
  • 00:38:55.993 --> 00:39:02.166
  • So if there is dna he can't clean.
  • 00:39:02.166 --> 00:39:05.402
  • It wasn't me.
  • 00:39:05.402 --> 00:39:06.503
  • He's going to have to go with mental defect.
  • 00:39:06.503 --> 00:39:09.473
  • And that's
  • 00:39:09.473 --> 00:39:10.607
  • Why it's so important that i'm able to match the knife
  • 00:39:10.607 --> 00:39:13.343
  • Up his pocket knife to those wounds.
  • 00:39:13.343 --> 00:39:18.749
  • Exactly.
  • 00:39:19.016 --> 00:39:19.850
  • Otherwise, there really is no defense
  • 00:39:19.850 --> 00:39:21.618
  • For the young man other than a mental defense.
  • 00:39:21.618 --> 00:39:25.122
  • And obviously he gave a statement to the police
  • 00:39:25.122 --> 00:39:27.724
  • Would be my guess.
  • 00:39:27.724 --> 00:39:28.759
  • The science evidence
  • 00:39:28.759 --> 00:39:29.927
  • Might not, under these circumstances,
  • 00:39:29.927 --> 00:39:31.728
  • Be enough, but it sounds like he copped out.
  • 00:39:31.728 --> 00:39:34.064
  • Frankly,
  • 00:39:34.064 --> 00:39:35.332
  • We're going to find out a lot about this
  • 00:39:35.332 --> 00:39:36.967
  • Young man, given his age,
  • 00:39:36.967 --> 00:39:38.469
  • He could have been in the throes of early onset schizophrenia,
  • 00:39:38.469 --> 00:39:42.372
  • Bipolar disorder, nose, maybe even a personality disorder.
  • 00:39:42.372 --> 00:39:47.277
  • And again, the goal,
  • 00:39:47.277 --> 00:39:48.412
  • The end game at the transfer hearing is not innocent.
  • 00:39:48.412 --> 00:39:51.482
  • It's to keep him retained in the juvenile court jurisdiction.
  • 00:39:51.482 --> 00:39:56.320
  • I just stop right there.
  • 00:39:56.854 --> 00:39:58.889
  • Number one, do you have a shred, a scintilla,
  • 00:39:58.889 --> 00:40:02.860
  • A speck of evidence that he has schizophrenia?
  • 00:40:02.860 --> 00:40:07.397
  • Or did you just make that up?
  • 00:40:07.397 --> 00:40:09.032
  • No, i'm just telling you
  • 00:40:09.566 --> 00:40:10.801
  • That's going to be explored when you hear like, for example.
  • 00:40:10.801 --> 00:40:14.137
  • So you have.
  • 00:40:14.137 --> 00:40:15.172
  • No evidence. against night? no.
  • 00:40:15.172 --> 00:40:17.274
  • But there was a flat fact in court.
  • 00:40:17.274 --> 00:40:19.476
  • You have no emotion, i guess.
  • 00:40:19.476 --> 00:40:20.978
  • Now, obviously ailing the young man.
  • 00:40:20.978 --> 00:40:25.082
  • Yes. yeah.
  • 00:40:25.382 --> 00:40:26.316
  • Guilt to doctor jury crossen,
  • 00:40:26.316 --> 00:40:29.219
  • Could you explain why a personality disorder
  • 00:40:29.219 --> 00:40:33.524
  • That phillip dubay just fabricated,
  • 00:40:33.524 --> 00:40:36.727
  • Is not a defense.
  • 00:40:37.160 --> 00:40:38.962
  • It does not rise to a mental defect.
  • 00:40:38.962 --> 00:40:41.532
  • And it is certainly not insanity.
  • 00:40:41.532 --> 00:40:43.634
  • It could be, for all i know, histrionic or narcissistic.
  • 00:40:43.634 --> 00:40:46.403
  • That's that's not a, a mental defense.
  • 00:40:46.403 --> 00:40:49.473
  • Yeah, neither of those are mental defects.
  • 00:40:49.473 --> 00:40:52.643
  • As far as, like, a defense,
  • 00:40:53.243 --> 00:40:54.945
  • You know, keep in mind, insanity is a legal term.
  • 00:40:54.945 --> 00:40:57.548
  • It's not a psychological diagnosis or anything.
  • 00:40:57.548 --> 00:41:00.584
  • What you're going to be looking at is his mental state
  • 00:41:00.584 --> 00:41:03.854
  • At the time.
  • 00:41:03.854 --> 00:41:05.322
  • And of the commission of the crime.
  • 00:41:05.322 --> 00:41:07.357
  • And what led up to that.
  • 00:41:07.357 --> 00:41:08.892
  • That's why it's important to know
  • 00:41:08.892 --> 00:41:10.193
  • About that relationship and things that happened there,
  • 00:41:10.193 --> 00:41:12.663
  • Because you're going to have behavioral traits.
  • 00:41:12.663 --> 00:41:14.998
  • You're going to have his personality displayed.
  • 00:41:14.998 --> 00:41:17.367
  • And that's something that you can document.
  • 00:41:17.367 --> 00:41:19.603
  • And when he does a court evaluation,
  • 00:41:19.603 --> 00:41:21.905
  • The evaluator would get into those dynamics to be able
  • 00:41:21.905 --> 00:41:25.943
  • To come up with a diagnosis to present to the court.
  • 00:41:25.943 --> 00:41:29.646
  • And he's looking at these cheerleader
  • 00:41:30.447 --> 00:41:31.748
  • Photos and imagining my little girl at age 13,
  • 00:41:31.748 --> 00:41:35.586
  • If you know or think you know anything about this case,
  • 00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:41.925
  • Anything at all, text
  • 00:41:41.925 --> 00:41:45.095
  • K c s o typ k c
  • 00:41:45.095 --> 00:41:49.099
  • S o typ 2847411.
  • 00:41:49.099 --> 00:41:55.906
  • At this moment the state is building its case
  • 00:41:56.773 --> 00:42:00.811
  • And the defense is building its own case.
  • 00:42:00.811 --> 00:42:04.815
  • We stop now and remember an american hero.
  • 00:42:05.682 --> 00:42:07.985
  • Police officer richard houston.
  • 00:42:07.985 --> 00:42:09.987
  • Mesquite police department, texas, shot
  • 00:42:09.987 --> 00:42:12.823
  • And killed in the line of duty.
  • 00:42:12.823 --> 00:42:15.959
  • Served 21 years with mesquite pd.
  • 00:42:15.959 --> 00:42:20.564
  • Survived by wife, now widow shelly.
  • 00:42:20.564 --> 00:42:24.034
  • Children shelby, hannah and lucas.
  • 00:42:24.034 --> 00:42:27.804
  • American hero.
  • 00:42:28.138 --> 00:42:29.439
  • Police officer richard houston.
  • 00:42:29.439 --> 00:42:32.309
  • Thank you to our guests for being with us tonight
  • 00:42:32.309 --> 00:42:35.178
  • And wading through the intricacies and the heartache
  • 00:42:35.178 --> 00:42:39.883
  • Of juvenile killers.
  • 00:42:39.883 --> 00:42:43.353
  • But especially thank you to you for being with us tonight
  • 00:42:43.353 --> 00:42:46.490
  • And every night. nancy grace signing off.
  • 00:42:46.490 --> 00:42:49.259
  • I'll see you tomorrow night, six and 9:00 sharp eastern.
  • 00:42:49.259 --> 00:42:52.195
  • And until then. good night. friend.
  • 00:42:52.195 --> 00:42:52.195