Matt and Laurie Crouch host Jackie Hill Perry from Nashville, TN.
#Religion;Talk Show
#Change
#Sexuality
#Kingdom of God
#Gospel
#Culture
#Identity in Christ
#Repentance
#New Creation
#Born Again
#Author
#Homosexuality
#Personal Story
#Abundance
#Temptation
#Wisdom
#Self-Righteousness
#Fruit of the Spirit
#Jackie Hill Perry
#Matt Crouch
#Laurie Crouch
#Genesis 3
#Proverbs 6:16-19
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Praise | Praise - Jackie Hill Perry - September 28, 2021 | September 30, 2021
- (beep)
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- (upbeat music)
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- - [Announcer] Tonight on "Praise," from Nashville,
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- author, teacher and poet, Jackie Hill Perry.
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- (upbeat music)
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- And now here's Matt and Laurie Crouch.
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- - Welcome to Nashville, today, all day,
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- it is all Jackie Hill Perry.
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- - Yeah, I love it.
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- - So you're prepared for that, right?
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- - I suppose.
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- - You can talk for a good hour, right?
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- Straight. No problem.
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- - I got you.
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- - Okay. All right.
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- Let's start with the first of all, you're an author.
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- We've kind of done the Jackie Hill Perry set,
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- "The Art of Joy," your Bible study, Jude.
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- "Crescendo."
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- What is "Crescendo?"
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- - So "Crescendo" and "The Art of Joy,"
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- are my two rap albums.
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- I just tell people, I just do words,
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- whatever thing I can do with words, I'm gonna do it.
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- Including Scrabble.
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- - And it's kind of poetry meets music,
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- - Do you play Banana Boat?
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- - Yeah, in the bag? Sorry.
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- (laughter)
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- - Do you play Banana Boat?
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- - I have.
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- - She loves it, I'm terrible at it.
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- - Kudos to Pastor D who plays Banana Boat very well.
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- - All right.
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- "Gay girl. Good God."
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- Why are we talking about this
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- and how does it connect to you, the author?
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- - Well, it's my story
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- of being a woman
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- who discovered that she had same-sex desires
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- before she knew how to spell her name.
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- So, you know, before five or six or seven,
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- I really don't know.
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- And since then, the Lord has saved me
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- and is subsequently changing me.
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- And we can later on define what change means.
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- But I feel just the compulsion to speak into the culture
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- to say that God really is good,
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- in light of however our sexuality may feel
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- or, you know, stuff like that.
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- - Start where you want to start,
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- but this is kind of unfolding.
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- You know, every time we have you as a guest,
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- you're really talking about the goodness of God.
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- That's really your theme.
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- If you don't talk about Jesus,
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- you're really not ultimately changing anyone or anything.
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- You're not really changing any circumstances
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- till we get to the main point,
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- the main attraction, God is good.
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- And he sent his son Jesus. All right, we get that.
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- But where do you want to,
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- where do you want to start jumping off?
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- Because this is really your story
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- and we could be introducing your story to some
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- that are watching pretty much anywhere
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- there's electricity in the world, by the way.
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- So why don't we jump off, go?
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- - Yeah. I mean, I guess we can start at the beginning,
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- which is when I first started to notice same-sex desires.
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- It was me comparing how other girls
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- felt about little boys to how I was feeling.
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- Which was, "Oh, I like and want to get to know
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- this little girl in the same way that these, you know,
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- the other kids on the playground
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- want to know the little boys and all the things."
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- And I didn't know where it was coming from
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- or why I was experiencing it.
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- And I think if this wasn't early nineties,
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- like if this was 2020,
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- then I probably would have had a word
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- to define myself by, way earlier.
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- But I didn't. And so it was just within me.
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- And so I went to church,
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- I used to go to church with my Aunt Muriel every Sunday.
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- And at some point I heard them preach
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- or teach about homosexuality.
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- And that was when like I heard the behavior,
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- then I heard the title and it's like,
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- "Oh, this is what I'm experiencing. And,
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- but I distinctively remember
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- that the way they talked about it
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- and the way they discussed it, it discussed the topic.
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- It felt shameful to be someone that would embrace it
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- or experience it.
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- And so I just kind of kept it to myself because it was like,
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- this is clearly not something that Christians like,
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- this is not people that Christians esteem.
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- And so let me just, you know,
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- deal with these issues within myself until it got to a point
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- where I couldn't keep it quiet anymore.
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- - There was no outlet in the nineties.
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- Okay. Well, you start winding back to the eighties
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- and the seventies and sixties, and only gets worse.
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- You go back too far,
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- there's laws and penalties
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- and you go back to the old Testament. It's a death sentence.
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- - Right?
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- - Okay. So maybe what we need to do is,
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- is realize that, you know,
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- we've been saying it back in the back we're we're,
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- we're talking about your book, Gay girl, Good God,
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- but we're not, what you could replace the gay word with
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- pretty much anything. What about gossip?
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- You know, it see sexuality, doesn't send you to hell,
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- not knowing Jesus sends you to hell.
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- So we've got to,
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- we got to talk about this and you know, you,
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- you explain things in a way that is testimonial in nature.
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- This is what God did for you. So just walk us through,
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- keep going. Let's get through this.
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- - Well, yeah, I mean,
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- when I was in high school is when it became harder
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- to behave as a heterosexual where I had all these desires
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- and all these feelings. And even in my friendships,
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- I wanted it to be more than a friend,
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- but I was so afraid of not only doing it,
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- but admitting it to myself. Well, you know,
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- because I didn't know what that meant.
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- In the context I grew up in it's like,
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- this will send me to hell.
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- Not even realizing that I already had a hell problem.
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- That I was, I was already a sinner.
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- I was, I wasn't even living righteous in the first place.
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- And so I just decided, I said, you know what,
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- I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna just do what I do.
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- And so I got on Myspace, which was, are, is archaic now.
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- And I connected with a young lady.
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- We ended up being in a relationship for around two years.
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- In that time, is what our transition into what in the black
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- lesbian community is called a stud.
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- And so a stud is the woman who kind of projects,
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- a kind of hyper masculine self. And so I sagged my pants.
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- I would wear certain bras to flatten my chest.
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- I put my hair in a ponytail. My voice is already heavy.
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- Didn't have to change that much.
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- And so there's also,
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- not only a sexuality experience I'm having,
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- but also a level of gender confusion.
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- And I think a lot of that was exacerbated by the culture
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- because growing up in a world that says to be woman,
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- to be girl is to like pink, to like purses,
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- to want to play with dolls. I didn't do any of that.
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- And then what they call me, they call me Tom boy.
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- They are labeling me a different gender just on the basis of
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- me not doing these socially constructed definitions
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- of womanhood and manhood.
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- And I think we do the same thing to the little boys.
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- We say, oh, he's crying, like a girl.
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- Instead of seeing his emotion
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- as an expression of him being an image bearer. Right?
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- And so I think so much of what I became and lived out
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- was stuff that was spoken over me
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- and confusion that I had ingested
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- because no one had ever taught me that you can be
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- your own kind of woman.
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- And so, yeah, it was just a wrestle.
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- But at the same time, I enjoyed myself,
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- which I think people gotta be honest.
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- It's a sin to a certain degree is enjoyable.
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- It's not lasting, it's not eternal, but I was having fun.
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- You know, it was, it was,
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- I felt at home with the women that I was with, I felt safe.
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- I felt loved. I felt taken care of.
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- And so that makes it even harder when you hear the call to
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- repentance and for someone to say, well, this is unnatural,
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- but it feels natural to me.
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- You know? And so that sounds foreign.
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- And it sounds like a lie for you to say,
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- I have to stop doing, what's making me happy.
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- It sounds foolish,
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- which is what the gospel says or what the scripture says.
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- The gospel is.
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- - Okay, help us understand something.
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- We...you know,
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- we have this idea that sin sends you to hell.
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- The church projects that I don't know how that is, but okay.
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- But the problem is you're born in sin, right?
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- Short of understanding who Jesus is, who he was,
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- what he did.
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- Died, resurrected and ascended to the father
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- and your belief in this.
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- That is what transforms you.
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- So why is there this singling out?
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- Let's say of sexuality sin.
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- Why are we singling it out?
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- And why is the church projecting that a particular sin
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- sends you to hell when not knowing Jesus sends you to hell?
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- - It's a big question.
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- Well, the wages of sin is death.
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- And so sin does incur judgment from God.
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- I think a part of the problem is that the way we read
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- the scriptures is that we sometimes accuse people
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- who are experiencing temptation of being actively sinful.
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- So what I mean is that
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- in first Corinthians 6, 9 through 10,
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- it says, do not be deceived neither,
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- the sexually immoral, nor idolaters,
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- nor men who practice homosexuality will inherit
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- the kingdom of God.
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- Notice how often we leave out practice.
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- - Oh, Hey
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- - We say homosexuals,
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- which implies just your experience of the temptation
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- warrants you Hell.
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- When it's like,
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- but Jesus was tempted in every respect yet without sin.
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- And so it is possible that someone can experience
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- temptation. And yet at the same time,
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- that doesn't necessarily mean that that temptation
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- warrants them hell.
- 00:11:03.753 --> 00:11:05.154
- If anything, that temptation is a sign post,
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- that their nature,
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- that there's a sinful nature of flesh at work
- 00:11:09.158 --> 00:11:10.659
- that needs to be renewed and needs to be put to death.
- 00:11:10.659 --> 00:11:14.864
- And so I just, I think it's, I think it's bad Bible reading,
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- but I think also the kind of talking
- 00:11:18.968 --> 00:11:22.204
- about sexuality all the time,
- 00:11:22.204 --> 00:11:24.306
- we talked about this earlier, which is, I think it's,
- 00:11:24.306 --> 00:11:26.609
- it's it's so it's easy to bully minority groups. Okay.
- 00:11:26.609 --> 00:11:31.413
- And so sexuality or those who experienced gay sexuality have
- 00:11:31.413 --> 00:11:36.018
- always been the minority group on the playground.
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- And so they are the ones that are bullied.
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- They are the ones that are talked about most.
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- They are the ones that are spoken against most
- 00:11:41.824 --> 00:11:43.459
- because if we speak against heterosexual,
- 00:11:43.459 --> 00:11:46.695
- perverted ways of expressing sexuality,
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- now we're indicting the pastor and the deacons and the
- 00:11:50.432 --> 00:11:54.036
- people in the church. So we don't want to talk about that.
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- We want to talk about,
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- we want to talk about the groups that are experiencing
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- sexuality and expressing themselves in ways that we don't,
- 00:11:59.475 --> 00:12:03.078
- because that is a kind of self-righteousness.
- 00:12:03.078 --> 00:12:06.015
- But also at the same time,
- 00:12:06.015 --> 00:12:07.550
- we have to acknowledge the fact that the church has often in
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- our discipleship and evangelistic efforts,
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- we are often responding to
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- what the culture talks about most.
- 00:12:14.990 --> 00:12:17.459
- And so if the culture is talking about gay identity
- 00:12:17.459 --> 00:12:20.429
- and trans rights and all these things a lot,
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- then the church naturally will discuss it a lot.
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- And so I think it's a really complicated situation
- 00:12:25.901 --> 00:12:29.138
- that we're in
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- anytime we've ventured into a conversation about sex.
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- - Okay.
- 00:12:32.408 --> 00:12:33.642
- So take a minute and talk about this issue
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- in a way that, let's just say,
- 00:12:39.615 --> 00:12:43.219
- the church was uncomfortable talking about,
- 00:12:43.219 --> 00:12:46.722
- or they shouldn't have been, but they were,
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- what do we need to say on this program
- 00:12:49.892 --> 00:12:54.363
- that hasn't been said?
- 00:12:54.363 --> 00:12:56.599
- And I circle back to even something you said earlier,
- 00:12:57.700 --> 00:13:00.436
- you said there wasn't a word
- 00:13:00.436 --> 00:13:02.705
- that I could even describe myself.
- 00:13:02.705 --> 00:13:04.807
- If I was five or six or seven years old in
- 00:13:04.807 --> 00:13:08.744
- 2020, 2021, 2022,
- 00:13:08.744 --> 00:13:12.581
- there might be a word that I might've been able to label
- 00:13:12.581 --> 00:13:16.752
- myself with, but you didn't even have a word in 1990,
- 00:13:16.752 --> 00:13:20.956
- you know, to label yourself what, what do we,
- 00:13:20.956 --> 00:13:26.195
- as believers in Jesus and the,
- 00:13:26.829 --> 00:13:30.099
- and what that is need to say that hasn't been said,
- 00:13:30.099 --> 00:13:35.004
- how do we help this situation?
- 00:13:35.004 --> 00:13:37.940
- - I think what we need to do
- 00:13:38.540 --> 00:13:41.810
- is read the scriptures,
- 00:13:42.311 --> 00:13:47.917
- to listen to people,
- 00:13:48.384 --> 00:13:50.219
- three- pray for wisdom.
- 00:13:50.219 --> 00:13:54.556
- It is so much easier to go out
- 00:13:55.190 --> 00:13:57.993
- and try to figure this thing out by yourself.
- 00:13:58.928 --> 00:14:01.330
- But we legitimately need the spirit of the living God,
- 00:14:02.431 --> 00:14:06.468
- and also know that this isn't strange what's happening in
- 00:14:06.468 --> 00:14:10.606
- Genesis 3, Eve is in the garden,
- 00:14:10.606 --> 00:14:14.476
- minding her sanctified business.
- 00:14:14.476 --> 00:14:17.046
- And the serpent steps up and says, Hey,
- 00:14:17.046 --> 00:14:19.882
- Did God really say,
- 00:14:19.882 --> 00:14:21.150
- you shall not eat from the fruit of the tree?
- 00:14:21.150 --> 00:14:23.152
- And she looks at the thing after conversing with the devil.
- 00:14:23.152 --> 00:14:26.855
- And she says, oh, that looks good for food.
- 00:14:26.855 --> 00:14:29.091
- Oh, that's a delight to the, to the eye.
- 00:14:29.091 --> 00:14:31.360
- Oh, that's desire to make one wise.
- 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.029
- She has an affection for created thing.
- 00:14:34.029 --> 00:14:37.433
- She has a temptation to, to,
- 00:14:37.433 --> 00:14:40.269
- to take apart or to engage with something
- 00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:44.340
- that God told her not to.
- 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:46.308
- And so what is happening in the culture is what has always
- 00:14:47.476 --> 00:14:48.711
- been happening.
- 00:14:48.711 --> 00:14:49.845
- Is that we have passions at war within us
- 00:14:49.845 --> 00:14:52.114
- that are waging war against our souls.
- 00:14:52.114 --> 00:14:54.817
- And so I think having that framework to know
- 00:14:54.817 --> 00:14:57.019
- this isn't a random thing,
- 00:14:57.019 --> 00:14:59.288
- nor is it something that you're also divorced from.
- 00:14:59.288 --> 00:15:02.324
- You have passions too. Gay or straight.
- 00:15:02.324 --> 00:15:05.027
- how many people do we know that are yet and still married
- 00:15:05.027 --> 00:15:08.497
- and still tempted to be with someone
- 00:15:08.497 --> 00:15:10.833
- that they're not married to.
- 00:15:10.833 --> 00:15:12.301
- That is a passion that God calls us to put to death. And so,
- 00:15:12.301 --> 00:15:16.438
- I don't know, man, we just, we need help.
- 00:15:16.438 --> 00:15:21.043
- - Well, yeah.
- 00:15:21.410 --> 00:15:23.879
- And it's all done by the holy spirit.
- 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:26.015
- - For sure.
- 00:15:26.015 --> 00:15:27.516
- - That's the only way we can do it because you know, I,
- 00:15:27.516 --> 00:15:30.319
- I think your part in labeling sin, you know, well,
- 00:15:30.319 --> 00:15:34.823
- we have sweet Christians that are addicted to pornography
- 00:15:34.823 --> 00:15:39.194
- and we have sweet Christians that have road rage.
- 00:15:39.194 --> 00:15:43.165
- And we have sweet Christians
- 00:15:43.165 --> 00:15:45.300
- - that are gossips
- 00:15:45.300 --> 00:15:46.802
- - that are some of the worst talkers that there can be.
- 00:15:46.802 --> 00:15:51.907
- So I know, I know so much of that.
- 00:15:52.674 --> 00:15:55.177
- I mean, so we were looking at Proverbs 6.
- 00:15:55.177 --> 00:15:58.847
- "these six things, the Lord hates- it's a strong word-
- 00:15:58.847 --> 00:16:03.685
- Yes. Seven are an abomination to him, a proud look,
- 00:16:04.753 --> 00:16:07.189
- a lying tongue hands that shed innocent blood,
- 00:16:07.189 --> 00:16:12.027
- a heart that devises wicked plans,
- 00:16:12.027 --> 00:16:15.030
- Feet that are swift in running to evil;
- 00:16:15.030 --> 00:16:18.133
- A false witness who speaks lies;
- 00:16:18.133 --> 00:16:21.136
- And one who sows discord among brethren.
- 00:16:21.136 --> 00:16:24.606
- Now I am guilty of maybe a few of those. Yeah.
- 00:16:25.507 --> 00:16:28.811
- - Well I think that this little list of things here,
- 00:16:28.811 --> 00:16:33.515
- I'm just, I'm just curious as to why we elevate
- 00:16:33.515 --> 00:16:39.421
- sexual sin over other sins. And we,
- 00:16:40.222 --> 00:16:47.729
- it's a confusing issue to me for real.
- 00:16:48.564 --> 00:16:50.866
- - Yeah.
- 00:16:50.866 --> 00:16:52.101
- We're self-righteous and "othering" people
- 00:16:52.101 --> 00:16:56.405
- makes us feel better about ourselves.
- 00:16:57.206 --> 00:17:00.542
- There's an identity issue at play,
- 00:17:00.542 --> 00:17:02.711
- and there's also a lack of compassion.
- 00:17:02.711 --> 00:17:05.013
- It shouldn't excite you to condemn people.
- 00:17:05.013 --> 00:17:07.916
- It shouldn't give you joy to have to tell someone that they
- 00:17:07.916 --> 00:17:11.620
- may not inherit the kingdom of God.
- 00:17:11.620 --> 00:17:14.189
- And so that tells me that there's a lack of grief and mercy
- 00:17:14.189 --> 00:17:18.427
- at work in you,
- 00:17:18.427 --> 00:17:20.329
- that you are so prone to identify all of these bad people
- 00:17:20.329 --> 00:17:25.167
- and never once say woe is me.
- 00:17:25.167 --> 00:17:27.669
- You know? And so I, I think we have a problem,
- 00:17:27.669 --> 00:17:30.739
- but I also have to remind those who I've conversed with
- 00:17:30.739 --> 00:17:33.842
- within the LBGTQ community is that some of the experience
- 00:17:33.842 --> 00:17:37.846
- that experiences that you have had with so-called Christians
- 00:17:37.846 --> 00:17:41.216
- are actually not with real Christians,
- 00:17:41.216 --> 00:17:43.986
- because what is fruit of the spirit? Right.
- 00:17:43.986 --> 00:17:47.422
- Love, kindness, gentleness for one.
- 00:17:47.422 --> 00:17:51.193
- And so if that is lacking consistently and persistently,
- 00:17:51.193 --> 00:17:55.764
- then I have the right to question if you actually know God,
- 00:17:55.764 --> 00:17:59.501
- why? Because God is love.
- 00:17:59.501 --> 00:18:02.738
- And so I've had to do the work of letting people
- 00:18:02.738 --> 00:18:06.942
- within the gay community know, Hey,
- 00:18:06.942 --> 00:18:08.744
- some of the people you met don't actually know God,
- 00:18:08.744 --> 00:18:13.615
- and I'm sorry, but even in that work,
- 00:18:13.615 --> 00:18:16.051
- I still have to define what is love then?
- 00:18:16.051 --> 00:18:18.954
- What is kindness then?
- 00:18:18.954 --> 00:18:20.355
- what is compassion then?
- 00:18:20.355 --> 00:18:21.857
- Because if their definition of compassion and kindness and
- 00:18:21.857 --> 00:18:24.126
- love comes from the world
- 00:18:24.126 --> 00:18:25.394
- then it doesn't come from the scriptures.
- 00:18:25.394 --> 00:18:26.895
- And so I can't also submit to how you see kindness,
- 00:18:26.895 --> 00:18:30.032
- because then I'll be unfaithful. Right?
- 00:18:30.032 --> 00:18:31.900
- And so I, I, that's why I say, I think it's a,
- 00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:34.102
- it's a lesson in wisdom and prayer and redefining
- 00:18:34.102 --> 00:18:37.406
- and clarifying that always has to be anchored
- 00:18:37.406 --> 00:18:40.108
- in a love for the person
- 00:18:40.108 --> 00:18:41.910
- rather than a boosting up of my own image.
- 00:18:41.910 --> 00:18:44.880
- - Well, and, and, and taking up our cross.
- 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.350
- Yeah. You know, I mean, there's a point where I just,
- 00:18:49.451 --> 00:18:53.121
- I do it because the Bible says to do it or not to do it,
- 00:18:53.121 --> 00:18:57.793
- although your fleshes, you know, you know,
- 00:18:57.793 --> 00:19:01.863
- and so what does that scripture mean to you.
- 00:19:01.863 --> 00:19:06.001
- - Taking up your cross.
- 00:19:06.501 --> 00:19:07.903
- - Daily.
- 00:19:07.903 --> 00:19:10.239
- - One, it reminds me that crucifixion is constant
- 00:19:08.704 --> 00:19:15.644
- and that's a part of discipleship
- 00:19:16.411 --> 00:19:17.913
- that is rarely communicated
- 00:19:17.913 --> 00:19:19.281
- because we tell people come to Jesus,
- 00:19:19.281 --> 00:19:21.016
- but we don't tell them that they have to die all the time.
- 00:19:21.016 --> 00:19:23.852
- You know,
- 00:19:23.852 --> 00:19:25.420
- like come to Jesus and you're going to get it turned life is
- 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:27.189
- going to be all good. It's like, yeah, but hard is the way.
- 00:19:27.189 --> 00:19:30.892
- And few will find it that this war, this,
- 00:19:30.892 --> 00:19:33.562
- this walk comes with much suffering.
- 00:19:33.562 --> 00:19:35.297
- And a bunch of that suffering is attached to me having to
- 00:19:35.297 --> 00:19:37.733
- die to what feels so true and so real to me.
- 00:19:37.733 --> 00:19:41.203
- But it also means that crucifixion hurts.
- 00:19:42.070 --> 00:19:46.241
- And it also means that crucifixion takes time.
- 00:19:46.241 --> 00:19:49.211
- The crucifixions historically were very long deaths.
- 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.483
- So it means that there are temptations
- 00:19:54.483 --> 00:19:57.052
- and passions within me
- 00:19:57.052 --> 00:19:58.854
- that I will have to put to death for a long time
- 00:19:58.854 --> 00:20:03.492
- and may or may not be able to defeat them finally.
- 00:20:03.492 --> 00:20:07.362
- But one day I will in glory. Right.
- 00:20:07.362 --> 00:20:10.666
- And so I think that's what I see is that God has called me
- 00:20:10.666 --> 00:20:13.869
- to be like himself,
- 00:20:13.869 --> 00:20:15.637
- which is what our culture does not want to do.
- 00:20:15.637 --> 00:20:18.273
- It does not enjoy dying to themselves because they think
- 00:20:18.273 --> 00:20:21.443
- that in, in loving themselves that they will find life.
- 00:20:21.443 --> 00:20:24.680
- There's only life in Jesus.
- 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:29.284
- - What Laurie brought out in Proverbs 6, you know,
- 00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:35.190
- would describe on any Sunday, virtually in any church,
- 00:20:36.291 --> 00:20:41.463
- the majority of people sitting there.
- 00:20:42.297 --> 00:20:43.632
- - Everybody.
- 00:20:43.632 --> 00:20:44.466
- - Okay. All right.
- 00:20:44.466 --> 00:20:45.467
- - Everybody.
- 00:20:45.467 --> 00:20:46.535
- - I'm with you on that.
- 00:20:46.535 --> 00:20:48.537
- And it is so easy to carve out one particular sin
- 00:20:49.538 --> 00:20:55.510
- and to label it in a way that all sin ultimately
- 00:20:56.445 --> 00:21:02.484
- is what separated us from God and your either
- 00:21:03.352 --> 00:21:07.823
- living with a temptation or denying yourself that
- 00:21:07.823 --> 00:21:13.061
- let's say fruit, that,
- 00:21:13.562 --> 00:21:14.830
- you know, this desirable fruit, whatever that is.
- 00:21:14.830 --> 00:21:18.166
- I mean, it could be shopping for goodness sakes.
- 00:21:18.166 --> 00:21:20.502
- I mean, it could be gluttony, you know, we don't want to,
- 00:21:20.502 --> 00:21:23.538
- we don't want to indict that issue because now we're
- 00:21:23.538 --> 00:21:28.110
- indicting a lot of people and is, you know,
- 00:21:28.110 --> 00:21:31.179
- that's just an ugly thing to think about that you would
- 00:21:31.179 --> 00:21:35.517
- really take the same steps to identify a separate group
- 00:21:36.618 --> 00:21:41.223
- based upon a scale.
- 00:21:41.223 --> 00:21:43.258
- But isn't that ultimately what
- 00:21:43.258 --> 00:21:46.194
- the gay community is experiencing.
- 00:21:46.194 --> 00:21:49.931
- - What?
- 00:21:49.931 --> 00:21:51.500
- - A feeling of being separated,
- 00:21:52.134 --> 00:21:54.302
- a feeling of being singled out and treated differently.
- 00:21:54.302 --> 00:21:58.640
- - Well, yeah, but I,
- 00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:00.942
- I think one of the complicated things or interesting things,
- 00:22:00.942 --> 00:22:05.647
- or what differentiates those within the LBGTQ community,
- 00:22:05.647 --> 00:22:10.919
- from someone who's a shoplifter, for example,
- 00:22:11.787 --> 00:22:14.289
- is this issue of identity.
- 00:22:14.289 --> 00:22:16.324
- I think there,
- 00:22:16.324 --> 00:22:18.093
- there is something difficult or something.
- 00:22:18.093 --> 00:22:23.498
- I think freedom becomes difficult
- 00:22:24.266 --> 00:22:26.334
- when we identify by our sins.
- 00:22:26.334 --> 00:22:29.004
- And so what has happened is that the experience of same-sex
- 00:22:29.004 --> 00:22:32.974
- temptation or the practice of the behavior has now become
- 00:22:32.974 --> 00:22:37.078
- an ontological thing where now this is my being.
- 00:22:37.078 --> 00:22:40.615
- And so that's why repentance is even more offensive because
- 00:22:40.615 --> 00:22:43.919
- to call you to turn from this behavior is her by you as
- 00:22:43.919 --> 00:22:48.356
- causing you, calling you to turn from yourself,
- 00:22:48.356 --> 00:22:51.226
- like who I am, my identity, who God created me to be,
- 00:22:51.226 --> 00:22:55.730
- but the fundamental identity that we all share and have is
- 00:22:55.730 --> 00:22:59.167
- that of an image bearer? What does that mean?
- 00:22:59.167 --> 00:23:01.369
- It means that I was created to image God not to.
- 00:23:01.369 --> 00:23:07.375
- Yeah. Yeah.
- 00:23:07.709 --> 00:23:09.244
- So I think that makes this whole thing really hard is that
- 00:23:10.345 --> 00:23:13.582
- people have identified by their sins.
- 00:23:13.582 --> 00:23:16.751
- And they're proud about it rather than
- 00:23:16.751 --> 00:23:19.387
- being willing to take up their cross
- 00:23:19.387 --> 00:23:21.022
- and died daily and identify themselves with the sun.
- 00:23:21.022 --> 00:23:24.159
- - Okay. You just described that there's fault on both sides.
- 00:23:25.293 --> 00:23:30.298
- The church doesn't want to indict
- 00:23:31.032 --> 00:23:35.370
- everybody in the congregation.
- 00:23:36.004 --> 00:23:37.873
- So the pastor doesn't indict everybody about a proud look
- 00:23:37.873 --> 00:23:42.143
- every Sunday and about sowing discord and being a gossip and
- 00:23:42.143 --> 00:23:46.214
- swiftly running to evil. So, you don't,
- 00:23:46.214 --> 00:23:49.150
- you don't want to indict everybody, but at the same time,
- 00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:53.088
- the gay community is saying, wait a second,
- 00:23:53.088 --> 00:23:56.024
- this is who I am. Right.
- 00:23:56.024 --> 00:23:58.226
- Okay. Where a shoplifter, doesn't just get to say, Hey,
- 00:23:58.226 --> 00:24:02.364
- this is who I am and just deal with it. Okay.
- 00:24:02.364 --> 00:24:05.000
- So the it's a complex issue,
- 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.037
- but there's fault really on both sides.
- 00:24:09.037 --> 00:24:12.107
- - Absolutely
- 00:24:12.107 --> 00:24:13.341
- - Okay. So in that and what you just explained
- 00:24:13.341 --> 00:24:17.078
- and what you lived out and what you're living out,
- 00:24:17.078 --> 00:24:21.716
- and what you're proving out is that until Jesus
- 00:24:21.716 --> 00:24:27.322
- comes into somebody and, and,
- 00:24:27.956 --> 00:24:30.358
- and until somebody is calling upon that,
- 00:24:30.358 --> 00:24:32.894
- they're really saying, or what, what somebody has said,
- 00:24:34.029 --> 00:24:39.000
- like we're sitting here saying
- 00:24:39.634 --> 00:24:40.936
- there is a change available for you,
- 00:24:41.736 --> 00:24:45.006
- but prior to 2008, you would've said, no, no, no,
- 00:24:45.006 --> 00:24:50.278
- this is who I am. Yes or no?
- 00:24:50.879 --> 00:24:53.882
- - Oh. I was raised in a church.
- 00:24:53.882 --> 00:24:55.383
- I would look careful with my words. I was scared.
- 00:24:55.383 --> 00:24:57.252
- - Okay.
- 00:24:57.252 --> 00:24:58.086
- - But, Go ahead.
- 00:24:58.086 --> 00:24:59.554
- But yes, to a certain degree, this is very much Jackie.
- 00:24:59.554 --> 00:25:03.124
- And to deny this part of me is to lay aside me for,
- 00:25:03.124 --> 00:25:08.430
- for lack of better words.
- 00:25:08.997 --> 00:25:10.498
- - Okay. So then ultimately someone might label you then
- 00:25:10.498 --> 00:25:16.771
- someone that is trying to change who somebody is.
- 00:25:17.806 --> 00:25:23.645
- - which is true.
- 00:25:24.012 --> 00:25:25.280
- - Okay. Talk about that for a minute.
- 00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:27.148
- - We just have to define what change is.
- 00:25:27.148 --> 00:25:29.884
- - Okay well, Help me with that.
- 00:25:29.884 --> 00:25:32.187
- - Because God has every intention to change who we are.
- 00:25:32.187 --> 00:25:36.491
- We are by nature, children of wrath.
- 00:25:36.491 --> 00:25:40.495
- We are born in sin and shaped in iniquity.
- 00:25:40.495 --> 00:25:45.834
- And God has every intention to create us again,
- 00:25:46.835 --> 00:25:50.305
- to make us new creatures,
- 00:25:50.305 --> 00:25:52.507
- to give us the right to become children of God.
- 00:25:52.507 --> 00:25:56.878
- And so the Bible is all about change.
- 00:25:56.878 --> 00:26:00.148
- All about conversion.
- 00:26:00.148 --> 00:26:02.450
- It's just the way we've communicated as Christians
- 00:26:02.450 --> 00:26:04.252
- has been biblical.
- 00:26:04.252 --> 00:26:05.787
- For example, we've told people, Hey,
- 00:26:05.787 --> 00:26:08.823
- if you come to Jesus,
- 00:26:08.823 --> 00:26:10.058
- what change looks like for you
- 00:26:10.058 --> 00:26:10.992
- is that he'll make you straight.
- 00:26:10.992 --> 00:26:14.529
- As if heterosexuality is a fruit of the spirit,
- 00:26:14.529 --> 00:26:17.298
- but I've never seen that in Galatians 5.
- 00:26:17.298 --> 00:26:19.834
- I don't see that. Nowhere Roman 6.
- 00:26:19.834 --> 00:26:23.038
- What I see, even in first Corinthians 6. 9 through 10,
- 00:26:23.038 --> 00:26:26.241
- which I quoted earlier, we leave out verse 11.
- 00:26:26.241 --> 00:26:28.410
- So again, don't be deceived neither, the sexually immoral,
- 00:26:28.410 --> 00:26:31.713
- nor idolaters, nor swimmers,
- 00:26:31.713 --> 00:26:33.181
- nor men who practice homosexuality
- 00:26:33.181 --> 00:26:34.983
- will inherit the kingdom of God, verse 11,
- 00:26:34.983 --> 00:26:36.951
- but such were some of you,
- 00:26:36.951 --> 00:26:38.586
- but he does not say, and you were made straight.
- 00:26:38.586 --> 00:26:40.622
- He says, you were sanctified.
- 00:26:40.622 --> 00:26:42.490
- You would justify. And your glory,
- 00:26:42.490 --> 00:26:45.293
- I'm missing one by the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
- 00:26:45.293 --> 00:26:47.796
- And by the spirit of our God.
- 00:26:47.796 --> 00:26:48.997
- And so what Paul speaks to what conversion,
- 00:26:48.997 --> 00:26:51.299
- what true change is, is that God has saved me as set apart,
- 00:26:51.299 --> 00:26:55.103
- set me apart for himself. He has made me right,
- 00:26:55.103 --> 00:26:57.839
- justified me with God.
- 00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:59.340
- And so these are the things that we need to be communicating
- 00:26:59.340 --> 00:27:02.577
- as change, which is that God makes us new people.
- 00:27:02.577 --> 00:27:06.281
- And even in us being new people,
- 00:27:06.281 --> 00:27:07.982
- we still have the same body.
- 00:27:07.982 --> 00:27:09.417
- Therefore we have the same struggles, the same temptations,
- 00:27:09.417 --> 00:27:12.020
- but now we have a spirit that fills us with power that is
- 00:27:12.020 --> 00:27:15.490
- able to help us to defeat and fight those things that we are
- 00:27:15.490 --> 00:27:19.127
- tempted to leave God for.
- 00:27:19.127 --> 00:27:20.862
- I imagine that if that is the way
- 00:27:20.862 --> 00:27:23.264
- that we communicated change,
- 00:27:23.264 --> 00:27:24.999
- we would actually have more conversions because now we've
- 00:27:24.999 --> 00:27:27.435
- preached a real gospel and not a prosperity gospel,
- 00:27:27.435 --> 00:27:30.371
- because it is a kind of prosperity gospel to say, Hey,
- 00:27:30.371 --> 00:27:32.807
- come to Jesus and he'll make you straight.
- 00:27:32.807 --> 00:27:34.476
- Implying,
- 00:27:34.476 --> 00:27:35.944
- You come to come to Jesus and be temptationless
- 00:27:35.944 --> 00:27:37.712
- Even Jesus didn't have that kind of life.
- 00:27:37.712 --> 00:27:40.281
- So we want to tell people
- 00:27:40.281 --> 00:27:41.916
- what it really means to be a Christian,
- 00:27:41.916 --> 00:27:43.785
- which is, you gonna struggle,
- 00:27:43.785 --> 00:27:45.320
- but you're not going to struggle forever.
- 00:27:45.320 --> 00:27:47.589
- - And you're going to pick up your cross and follow me.
- 00:27:47.589 --> 00:27:50.959
- - for sure.
- 00:27:50.959 --> 00:27:52.427
- - And so there's this weird kind of discussion that doesn't
- 00:27:52.427 --> 00:27:57.632
- get talked about very much that if somebody is struggling
- 00:27:58.767 --> 00:28:03.271
- with sin, then they're identified as that.
- 00:28:03.271 --> 00:28:06.174
- Well, who isn't struggling with being angry or this, or,
- 00:28:07.308 --> 00:28:12.547
- you know, or, you know, I mean,
- 00:28:13.181 --> 00:28:14.415
- my dad told the story of his own father
- 00:28:14.415 --> 00:28:18.820
- who left the foal
- 00:28:19.254 --> 00:28:21.856
- and got on a horse
- 00:28:21.856 --> 00:28:23.124
- and wanted to become a professional gambler.
- 00:28:23.124 --> 00:28:25.960
- Okay. This is when, before automobiles and the whole time.
- 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:31.266
- - He was in I guess a saloon and was playing cards
- 00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:38.439
- and the, okay, he was involved in alcoholism.
- 00:28:39.340 --> 00:28:45.914
- He was involved in wanting to run away
- 00:28:46.748 --> 00:28:49.751
- and when he finally surrendered
- 00:28:49.751 --> 00:28:53.054
- at the, at the knee of his grandmother,
- 00:28:53.054 --> 00:28:57.025
- my dad's dad, and she prayed and he actually received
- 00:28:57.025 --> 00:29:01.563
- Jesus, quote, he didn't wanna drink again.
- 00:29:01.563 --> 00:29:06.267
- He didn't want, and was called into the ministry
- 00:29:07.202 --> 00:29:09.537
- and all this.
- 00:29:09.537 --> 00:29:11.039
- So, sometimes we get this conversion experience
- 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:15.109
- confused and we say to somebody,
- 00:29:15.109 --> 00:29:19.948
- the moment you surrender to Jesus
- 00:29:19.948 --> 00:29:22.383
- you're just not gonna be tempted anymore,
- 00:29:22.383 --> 00:29:24.586
- and what's your problem?
- 00:29:24.586 --> 00:29:26.588
- And if you're having a problem converting
- 00:29:26.588 --> 00:29:30.592
- from gay to straight, for example,
- 00:29:30.592 --> 00:29:32.827
- then that's on you.
- 00:29:32.827 --> 00:29:34.462
- - Yeah, because we've made heterosexuality
- 00:29:34.462 --> 00:29:37.532
- the equivalent of holiness,
- 00:29:37.532 --> 00:29:41.803
- and it's not the same.
- 00:29:41.803 --> 00:29:43.605
- Because we are all sexual.
- 00:29:43.605 --> 00:29:45.974
- First of all, heterosexuality and homosexuality
- 00:29:45.974 --> 00:29:49.344
- are even categories that have not existed
- 00:29:49.344 --> 00:29:53.081
- prior to 1800.
- 00:29:53.081 --> 00:29:54.983
- And so, we're already dealing with contemporary ways
- 00:29:54.983 --> 00:29:58.519
- of seeing our sexuality, okay.
- 00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:00.622
- But I think beyond that, it's that we are all
- 00:30:00.622 --> 00:30:04.959
- sexual beings, but we are also sinful,
- 00:30:04.959 --> 00:30:08.463
- therefore, we are all sexually broken.
- 00:30:08.463 --> 00:30:10.565
- And so, it is unhelpful for me to assume
- 00:30:10.565 --> 00:30:14.335
- that for you to become straight is equivalent
- 00:30:14.335 --> 00:30:17.105
- to you being holy.
- 00:30:17.105 --> 00:30:18.539
- It's not.
- 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:19.807
- So what we need to say is, you need
- 00:30:19.807 --> 00:30:21.476
- to come to Jesus.
- 00:30:21.476 --> 00:30:23.411
- You need to love Jesus and serve Jesus.
- 00:30:23.411 --> 00:30:26.314
- I've had so many conversations with people
- 00:30:26.314 --> 00:30:28.883
- where they have told me, Jackie, I have tried
- 00:30:28.883 --> 00:30:30.718
- to be straight, I've tried.
- 00:30:30.718 --> 00:30:32.553
- I got married to a woman.
- 00:30:32.553 --> 00:30:34.088
- I got married to a man.
- 00:30:34.088 --> 00:30:35.523
- I did all this stuff and it never worked.
- 00:30:35.523 --> 00:30:38.092
- And my question is, but, did you ever try
- 00:30:38.092 --> 00:30:39.794
- to love Jesus?
- 00:30:39.794 --> 00:30:42.030
- That's different, because if you are coming
- 00:30:42.030 --> 00:30:44.632
- to Jesus to be straight, then you are not coming
- 00:30:44.632 --> 00:30:47.702
- to Jesus for Jesus, therefore you have only inherited
- 00:30:47.702 --> 00:30:50.738
- another idol, and that's not what we want.
- 00:30:50.738 --> 00:30:53.708
- We want legitimate, legitimate conversion,
- 00:30:53.708 --> 00:30:57.612
- legitimate conversion where the Spirit of God
- 00:30:57.612 --> 00:31:00.448
- and Jesus's righteousness is imputed to you
- 00:31:00.448 --> 00:31:02.951
- and now you love him more than anything,
- 00:31:02.951 --> 00:31:04.953
- even when you struggle with everything.
- 00:31:04.953 --> 00:31:06.888
- And that's the truth of the matter.
- 00:31:06.888 --> 00:31:08.222
- But, we have hope.
- 00:31:08.222 --> 00:31:09.424
- Daniel was able to keep us from stumbling
- 00:31:09.424 --> 00:31:11.025
- to present us with all this faultless and blameless
- 00:31:11.025 --> 00:31:12.460
- for his glorious presence with great joy.
- 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:14.429
- It's like this tension between our bodies
- 00:31:14.429 --> 00:31:17.065
- and our hearts and our passions and our minds
- 00:31:17.065 --> 00:31:19.567
- will not always exist, you know.
- 00:31:19.567 --> 00:31:21.903
- But if we are a slave to that now
- 00:31:21.903 --> 00:31:24.272
- and refuse to repent we will be
- 00:31:24.272 --> 00:31:26.240
- a slave to it forever.
- 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.077
- - I love when you get going like that.
- 00:31:29.911 --> 00:31:32.680
- Well, so the power of the cross
- 00:31:33.314 --> 00:31:37.618
- and what Jesus did for us at the cross
- 00:31:37.618 --> 00:31:41.122
- takes away all the excuses.
- 00:31:41.122 --> 00:31:43.024
- - It does, 'cause he really has made,
- 00:31:43.024 --> 00:31:45.460
- he really has made a way.
- 00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:47.929
- And it's so offensive, it's so offensive
- 00:31:47.929 --> 00:31:52.900
- to say that who or what you believe
- 00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:57.305
- is so true of yourself is wrong.
- 00:31:57.305 --> 00:32:00.341
- And I do understand that.
- 00:32:00.341 --> 00:32:01.709
- I understand it, but where are we getting
- 00:32:01.709 --> 00:32:04.679
- even that framework?
- 00:32:04.679 --> 00:32:06.547
- Is it from God?
- 00:32:06.914 --> 00:32:08.649
- Is it from the apostles?
- 00:32:08.649 --> 00:32:10.418
- Is it from the prophets?
- 00:32:10.418 --> 00:32:11.619
- If anything what the scriptures are saying is
- 00:32:11.619 --> 00:32:13.855
- we live in a place where everything, everybody does
- 00:32:13.855 --> 00:32:15.957
- what is right in their own eyes
- 00:32:15.957 --> 00:32:17.859
- and that our hearts are deceitful above all things
- 00:32:17.859 --> 00:32:20.395
- who can possibly know it.
- 00:32:20.395 --> 00:32:21.629
- And so, we need a transcendent wisdom
- 00:32:21.629 --> 00:32:25.033
- that is not dependent on what the culture believes
- 00:32:25.033 --> 00:32:27.668
- is right, but what has been revealed
- 00:32:27.668 --> 00:32:30.138
- in the Lord Jesus Christ.
- 00:32:30.138 --> 00:32:31.806
- And it's that he is the way.
- 00:32:31.806 --> 00:32:35.043
- He is the truth.
- 00:32:35.043 --> 00:32:37.545
- And he is the life.
- 00:32:37.545 --> 00:32:39.814
- And he has risen from the dead so he could give life
- 00:32:39.814 --> 00:32:43.818
- to our mortal bodies and give us the power
- 00:32:43.818 --> 00:32:47.288
- to raise above all the things that are relegating
- 00:32:47.288 --> 00:32:50.458
- us to death.
- 00:32:50.458 --> 00:32:51.692
- And so, it is an offensive gospel,
- 00:32:51.692 --> 00:32:54.228
- but it is a power in God unto salvation
- 00:32:54.228 --> 00:32:57.231
- for those who, by the power of the Spirit,
- 00:32:57.231 --> 00:32:59.233
- choose to believe it.
- 00:32:59.233 --> 00:33:00.468
- And so, we have no choice but to preach
- 00:33:00.468 --> 00:33:02.437
- this thing that makes some people mad
- 00:33:02.437 --> 00:33:04.439
- and makes other people saints.
- 00:33:04.439 --> 00:33:06.274
- That's our predicament.
- 00:33:06.274 --> 00:33:08.509
- - So, the idea that we make an idol
- 00:33:08.509 --> 00:33:15.650
- of either homosexuality or heterosexuality
- 00:33:16.484 --> 00:33:21.889
- is just, it's just trading one idol for another.
- 00:33:22.890 --> 00:33:25.593
- - Neither will save you.
- 00:33:25.593 --> 00:33:28.396
- - So, the idea that Jesus is the only true goal here
- 00:33:29.464 --> 00:33:36.671
- and if 2007 Jackie Hill Perry didn't understand.
- 00:33:37.605 --> 00:33:47.348
- - Jackie Hill.
- 00:33:47.715 --> 00:33:49.150
- - Yeah, I was Jackie Hill.
- 00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:50.351
- - Yeah sorry, Jackie Hill, 2007 Jackie Hill,
- 00:33:50.351 --> 00:33:53.855
- didn't understand that basically
- 00:33:53.855 --> 00:33:59.760
- what you were going to get when you got Jesus.
- 00:34:00.661 --> 00:34:06.100
- So, what changed?
- 00:34:06.534 --> 00:34:08.369
- How did, how did you become who you are today?
- 00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:13.641
- And what was the, what was the impetus for you
- 00:34:14.542 --> 00:34:20.615
- understanding the purity and the love of Jesus
- 00:34:21.516 --> 00:34:24.952
- that would never let you down?
- 00:34:24.952 --> 00:34:26.521
- How did that finally come about?
- 00:34:26.521 --> 00:34:28.589
- - Well one, it sounds silly, but I really do think
- 00:34:28.589 --> 00:34:33.794
- Sunday School was, is partially to blame
- 00:34:34.662 --> 00:34:38.299
- because they taught me really basic truths about Jesus.
- 00:34:38.299 --> 00:34:43.304
- They had me color the little paper
- 00:34:43.304 --> 00:34:46.574
- with Jesus and the little lambs
- 00:34:46.574 --> 00:34:48.376
- and they told us John 3:16,
- 00:34:48.376 --> 00:34:50.244
- for God so loved the world that whoever believes
- 00:34:50.244 --> 00:34:52.380
- shall not perish, but have eternal life.
- 00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:54.215
- And it's those really simple, but fundamental
- 00:34:54.215 --> 00:34:57.718
- gospel truths that actually did something
- 00:34:57.718 --> 00:35:00.121
- to my conscience during the whole thing.
- 00:35:00.121 --> 00:35:02.657
- It's really hard to continue to sin
- 00:35:02.657 --> 00:35:07.328
- when you know the truth.
- 00:35:07.328 --> 00:35:08.896
- And so, it got to a point where I was
- 00:35:08.896 --> 00:35:11.299
- just convicted all the time
- 00:35:11.299 --> 00:35:12.800
- and it was gettin' on my nerves.
- 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:14.435
- You hear me, Lord?
- 00:35:14.435 --> 00:35:15.369
- It was gettin' on my nerves.
- 00:35:15.369 --> 00:35:16.938
- I was always reminded that God wanted me,
- 00:35:16.938 --> 00:35:20.942
- that God died for me,
- 00:35:20.942 --> 00:35:22.677
- that God was displeased with my sin.
- 00:35:22.677 --> 00:35:25.713
- And I called my cousin, Keesha, 'cause she was
- 00:35:25.713 --> 00:35:28.249
- the only Christian that I had a relationship with
- 00:35:28.249 --> 00:35:30.818
- that would actually have a conversation.
- 00:35:30.818 --> 00:35:33.020
- Like I knew if I called her we wouldn't go
- 00:35:33.020 --> 00:35:34.755
- like to Leviticus 18 immediately, and Romans One.
- 00:35:34.755 --> 00:35:38.526
- Like, she would actually ask me about my day.
- 00:35:38.526 --> 00:35:40.528
- And so, I called her, which is a word,
- 00:35:40.528 --> 00:35:44.732
- that you wanna be the kind of Christian
- 00:35:44.732 --> 00:35:47.735
- that treats people like image bearers
- 00:35:47.735 --> 00:35:50.805
- and not people to be fixed.
- 00:35:50.805 --> 00:35:52.406
- And I sensed that from her.
- 00:35:52.406 --> 00:35:54.041
- So I called her.
- 00:35:54.041 --> 00:35:55.243
- I said, hey, I feel like God is calling me,
- 00:35:55.243 --> 00:35:57.078
- but I don't want him.
- 00:35:57.078 --> 00:35:59.213
- Like, I'm really enjoying my life.
- 00:35:59.213 --> 00:36:01.048
- I don't wanna be a Christian.
- 00:36:01.048 --> 00:36:02.650
- And she said something that made no sense
- 00:36:02.650 --> 00:36:05.019
- to me at the time.
- 00:36:05.019 --> 00:36:06.520
- She said, God is gonna show you how much you need him.
- 00:36:06.520 --> 00:36:09.457
- I was like okay, whatever.
- 00:36:09.457 --> 00:36:11.659
- So, I got off the phone and my life started
- 00:36:11.659 --> 00:36:14.595
- to get a little difficult,
- 00:36:14.595 --> 00:36:16.030
- which I think was God's providence
- 00:36:16.030 --> 00:36:17.932
- allowing suffering to force my head
- 00:36:17.932 --> 00:36:20.368
- to look up and say, oh man, life isn't as good
- 00:36:20.368 --> 00:36:23.137
- and as easy and as lovely as I want it to be.
- 00:36:23.137 --> 00:36:25.306
- And so, I would do what I usually do,
- 00:36:25.306 --> 00:36:26.540
- which was smoke a bunch of weed to get
- 00:36:26.540 --> 00:36:28.843
- some sorta peace, until October 2008.
- 00:36:28.843 --> 00:36:33.481
- I'm 19, I'm in my room mindin' my business,
- 00:36:33.481 --> 00:36:36.117
- not doin' nothin' spiritual 'cause I didn't
- 00:36:36.117 --> 00:36:37.418
- go to church.
- 00:36:37.418 --> 00:36:38.686
- Christians always looked at me weird
- 00:36:38.686 --> 00:36:39.887
- and so I didn't like to go into their world.
- 00:36:39.887 --> 00:36:41.522
- And so, God brought his Spirit into mine.
- 00:36:41.522 --> 00:36:44.292
- And I was in my room and I heard a thought
- 00:36:44.292 --> 00:36:48.696
- and it was, she will be the death of you.
- 00:36:48.696 --> 00:36:50.965
- And it was weird because I was like, wait.
- 00:36:50.965 --> 00:36:53.267
- Like, first of all, I wouldn't say that to myself.
- 00:36:53.267 --> 00:36:56.570
- Don't think the devil would.
- 00:36:56.570 --> 00:36:57.938
- So, maybe it's the Lord.
- 00:36:57.938 --> 00:36:59.473
- And so, I started to have this conversation with God
- 00:36:59.473 --> 00:37:02.310
- and my immediate response to God was,
- 00:37:02.310 --> 00:37:05.012
- but I don't wanna be straight,
- 00:37:05.012 --> 00:37:06.447
- because again, the gospel message I had heard
- 00:37:06.447 --> 00:37:09.417
- is that to be Christian is to be straight,
- 00:37:09.417 --> 00:37:11.485
- not, to be Christian is to be holy.
- 00:37:11.485 --> 00:37:14.855
- And so, I just was like, God, I don't
- 00:37:14.855 --> 00:37:16.924
- wanna be straight though.
- 00:37:16.924 --> 00:37:18.592
- And I felt God speak to my heart and say,
- 00:37:18.592 --> 00:37:20.628
- just learn to love me and we'll work
- 00:37:20.628 --> 00:37:23.731
- everything else out.
- 00:37:23.731 --> 00:37:25.032
- So, I started to think about my life
- 00:37:25.032 --> 00:37:26.634
- and everything that I loved and enjoyed.
- 00:37:26.634 --> 00:37:29.236
- I thought about my marijuana addiction,
- 00:37:29.236 --> 00:37:31.539
- my theft, my disrespect of authority figures
- 00:37:31.539 --> 00:37:35.543
- in all forms, my idolatry, my just every,
- 00:37:35.543 --> 00:37:40.815
- every single thing that I loved and enjoyed
- 00:37:41.682 --> 00:37:43.884
- had nothing to do with the glory of God.
- 00:37:43.884 --> 00:37:45.753
- And at that moment I realized
- 00:37:45.753 --> 00:37:47.555
- that my only, like my primary issue
- 00:37:47.555 --> 00:37:49.724
- was not my sexuality, but my unbelief.
- 00:37:49.724 --> 00:37:52.693
- It was that I lived my life for myself.
- 00:37:52.693 --> 00:37:56.197
- I did whatever I wanted to do
- 00:37:56.197 --> 00:37:58.165
- whenever I wanted to do it, which is
- 00:37:58.165 --> 00:38:00.368
- utterly rebellious against the living God.
- 00:38:00.368 --> 00:38:03.237
- But at the same time, I remembered John 3:16,
- 00:38:03.237 --> 00:38:06.841
- which said, oh, so when you said for God so loved
- 00:38:06.841 --> 00:38:10.911
- the world that whoever believe, you were talking
- 00:38:10.911 --> 00:38:13.647
- about me, too, that I am the person
- 00:38:13.647 --> 00:38:17.017
- that if I believe that I'll have eternal life.
- 00:38:17.017 --> 00:38:20.521
- And so, that's really what happened
- 00:38:20.521 --> 00:38:22.590
- is that I realized, okay, if God
- 00:38:22.590 --> 00:38:25.292
- is presenting himself as an alternative
- 00:38:25.292 --> 00:38:28.028
- to everything that I love and enjoy,
- 00:38:28.028 --> 00:38:29.930
- he must be better than everything
- 00:38:29.930 --> 00:38:32.233
- that I've lovin' and enjoyin' thus far.
- 00:38:32.233 --> 00:38:34.135
- And so, in my repentance it wasn't me,
- 00:38:34.135 --> 00:38:36.804
- oh, let me be a good person
- 00:38:36.804 --> 00:38:38.172
- or let me escape hell.
- 00:38:38.172 --> 00:38:39.940
- It's that I literally found, through the power
- 00:38:39.940 --> 00:38:43.077
- of the Holy Spirit, the fountain of living waters.
- 00:38:43.077 --> 00:38:45.479
- It was II Corinthians that the veil was being lifted
- 00:38:45.479 --> 00:38:49.450
- from my eyes for me to see the glory
- 00:38:49.450 --> 00:38:51.185
- that is in the face of Jesus Christ.
- 00:38:51.185 --> 00:38:52.953
- And I did not know that was repentance.
- 00:38:52.953 --> 00:38:54.989
- I did not know that was faith.
- 00:38:54.989 --> 00:38:56.524
- But I do know that I was different immediately.
- 00:38:56.524 --> 00:38:59.727
- So, that's what happened is that the Lord
- 00:38:59.727 --> 00:39:02.363
- saved me, child.
- 00:39:02.363 --> 00:39:03.831
- That wasn't, that wasn't none of my works lest I boast.
- 00:39:03.831 --> 00:39:06.901
- Truly.
- 00:39:06.901 --> 00:39:07.868
- - Wow.
- 00:39:07.868 --> 00:39:09.470
- - Okay.
- 00:39:09.703 --> 00:39:10.671
- - Sorry, that was a mouthful.
- 00:39:10.671 --> 00:39:11.906
- - That was, that was, that was amazing.
- 00:39:11.906 --> 00:39:14.408
- - Beautiful.
- 00:39:14.408 --> 00:39:15.676
- - And you, it feels like you were just seeing,
- 00:39:15.676 --> 00:39:21.348
- again, the scales came from your eyes,
- 00:39:22.183 --> 00:39:24.418
- you were seeing something you didn't experience in church,
- 00:39:24.418 --> 00:39:29.657
- except in Sunday School.
- 00:39:30.157 --> 00:39:32.927
- So, that seed didn't return void in your life.
- 00:39:32.927 --> 00:39:37.731
- It's almost like you came back to that.
- 00:39:37.731 --> 00:39:39.767
- But everything from the time you felt
- 00:39:39.767 --> 00:39:45.105
- the same sex attraction at five, six, seven years old,
- 00:39:46.207 --> 00:39:50.244
- you don't really remember, until that time
- 00:39:51.145 --> 00:39:54.982
- you saw nothing modeled in the church
- 00:39:54.982 --> 00:39:58.219
- that drew you there.
- 00:39:58.219 --> 00:39:59.753
- - Well, I did in my Aunt Merle.
- 00:39:59.753 --> 00:40:01.989
- She was, I always say she was the first holy woman I knew
- 00:40:01.989 --> 00:40:05.893
- 'cause she lived so differently than everybody else.
- 00:40:05.893 --> 00:40:08.429
- She was just kind all the time.
- 00:40:08.429 --> 00:40:10.731
- She did wear dresses all the time, but I was like
- 00:40:10.731 --> 00:40:12.666
- I ain't never gonna be that old.
- 00:40:12.666 --> 00:40:14.568
- But she was just different, but I didn't have
- 00:40:14.568 --> 00:40:17.304
- a theological framework that how she lived
- 00:40:17.304 --> 00:40:20.508
- was a product of a supernatural conversion
- 00:40:20.508 --> 00:40:23.210
- that God himself did.
- 00:40:23.210 --> 00:40:25.079
- - Got it.
- 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:26.313
- - 'Cause I thought Christians were people
- 00:40:26.313 --> 00:40:27.882
- that were just really good at doing the right thing.
- 00:40:27.882 --> 00:40:30.684
- They never told me that it is God
- 00:40:30.684 --> 00:40:33.387
- that raises you from the dead,
- 00:40:33.387 --> 00:40:35.222
- that it's God that makes you righteous,
- 00:40:35.222 --> 00:40:37.091
- that it's God that makes you new.
- 00:40:37.091 --> 00:40:38.859
- And so, I think if I was able, it's like
- 00:40:38.859 --> 00:40:41.228
- somebody communicated that to me instead
- 00:40:41.228 --> 00:40:44.131
- of just stop sinnin', stop dressin' like a boy,
- 00:40:44.131 --> 00:40:46.800
- stop listenin' to secular music,
- 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:48.402
- they were givin' me all these works
- 00:40:48.402 --> 00:40:50.271
- and they were never givin' me Jesus.
- 00:40:50.271 --> 00:40:52.139
- And so, I think that's, there was a disconnect
- 00:40:52.139 --> 00:40:54.775
- between what I saw and what they taught.
- 00:40:54.775 --> 00:40:56.744
- - So, it was all about do good, get good.
- 00:40:56.744 --> 00:40:58.746
- - Yes, that was it. - Do bad and get bad.
- 00:40:58.746 --> 00:41:00.814
- - Or go to the altar and cry for 10 minutes, you know.
- 00:41:00.814 --> 00:41:03.851
- Say this prayer.
- 00:41:03.851 --> 00:41:05.152
- But it's like, but I don't have any faith.
- 00:41:05.152 --> 00:41:09.323
- - Yeah.
- 00:41:09.323 --> 00:41:10.658
- - I'm saying the prayer, but I'm not even
- 00:41:10.658 --> 00:41:12.192
- believing in anybody.
- 00:41:12.192 --> 00:41:13.594
- When I'm doing it I'm thinking that the prayer itself
- 00:41:13.594 --> 00:41:16.163
- has the power unto salvation
- 00:41:16.163 --> 00:41:18.165
- and not the power of God through his gospel.
- 00:41:18.165 --> 00:41:21.569
- - So, the gospel was never explained to you
- 00:41:21.569 --> 00:41:25.706
- in a way until supernaturally a conversation
- 00:41:25.706 --> 00:41:30.444
- that stemmed from John 3:16 from Sunday School,
- 00:41:30.444 --> 00:41:34.582
- you jumped off of that and went into a conversation
- 00:41:34.582 --> 00:41:38.385
- that ultimately got your attention.
- 00:41:38.385 --> 00:41:40.821
- - Damascus.
- 00:41:40.821 --> 00:41:42.590
- - Wow, that's beautiful, by the way.
- 00:41:43.390 --> 00:41:48.662
- 'Cause that means it an happen to anybody.
- 00:41:49.563 --> 00:41:50.531
- - Wherever they are.
- 00:41:50.531 --> 00:41:51.465
- - Yeah.
- 00:41:51.465 --> 00:41:52.666
- - And I think it's encouraging to parents
- 00:41:52.666 --> 00:41:55.636
- because you really do think that all that you poured
- 00:41:55.636 --> 00:41:58.072
- isn't working, that it's not, it's not landed,
- 00:41:58.072 --> 00:42:03.344
- that the seed has been sown, but the devil
- 00:42:04.244 --> 00:42:05.279
- done plucked it up.
- 00:42:05.279 --> 00:42:06.747
- And perhaps for a time, but just because they're not
- 00:42:06.747 --> 00:42:09.817
- responding to what you taught doesn't mean
- 00:42:09.817 --> 00:42:12.086
- that they don't remember it.
- 00:42:12.086 --> 00:42:13.988
- And I think that's the beauty of the Spirit of God
- 00:42:13.988 --> 00:42:16.991
- is that he's gonna use that word.
- 00:42:16.991 --> 00:42:18.959
- We don't know when, but we just keep praying
- 00:42:18.959 --> 00:42:21.061
- that the word that you sowed that God
- 00:42:21.061 --> 00:42:23.497
- would use other means to water it so that there's fruit.
- 00:42:23.497 --> 00:42:27.034
- - And to break the shame off of people's lives.
- 00:42:27.034 --> 00:42:29.536
- You know, God is so good and I think
- 00:42:29.536 --> 00:42:33.374
- the thing that he hates about sin so much
- 00:42:34.208 --> 00:42:37.277
- is that sin leads to death.
- 00:42:37.277 --> 00:42:39.880
- And so, why did I send my Son to die?
- 00:42:40.714 --> 00:42:45.586
- You know, and we put so little into what the blood
- 00:42:45.586 --> 00:42:49.723
- of Christ actually did for us.
- 00:42:49.723 --> 00:42:52.226
- And we have all these excuses
- 00:42:52.226 --> 00:42:54.928
- because we don't see the glory
- 00:42:54.928 --> 00:42:56.263
- and the holiness of God,
- 00:42:56.263 --> 00:42:57.698
- which you've got another book called
- 00:42:57.698 --> 00:42:59.533
- Holier Than Thou, that is just amazing.
- 00:42:59.533 --> 00:43:03.704
- But, his grace,
- 00:43:04.071 --> 00:43:05.739
- seeing him face-to-face, seein' his.
- 00:43:06.473 --> 00:43:09.677
- - Okay, I think I could say it, but I want
- 00:43:09.677 --> 00:43:14.948
- to, I think I could say it, but I want you to...
- 00:43:15.883 --> 00:43:19.720
- - Say it better.
- 00:43:19.720 --> 00:43:20.554
- - Yeah.
- 00:43:20.554 --> 00:43:21.655
- - Sorry.
- 00:43:21.655 --> 00:43:23.891
- - I don't wanna tromp on it, put words in your mouth.
- 00:43:23.891 --> 00:43:27.461
- What was the main obstacle in 2007
- 00:43:27.461 --> 00:43:32.733
- between you and a loving Jesus Savior
- 00:43:33.567 --> 00:43:37.371
- that you recognize and acknowledge now?
- 00:43:37.371 --> 00:43:40.674
- What was the biggest obstacle?
- 00:43:40.674 --> 00:43:44.378
- - Apart from spiritual blindness.
- 00:43:45.112 --> 00:43:47.347
- That's a automatic.
- 00:43:47.347 --> 00:43:51.785
- I just don't think
- 00:43:52.219 --> 00:43:56.090
- I was given a framework
- 00:43:56.590 --> 00:44:00.094
- about the beauty of God, you know.
- 00:44:00.861 --> 00:44:03.697
- Like, it was God is Lord, God is king,
- 00:44:03.697 --> 00:44:07.601
- God is judge, and these are all true,
- 00:44:07.601 --> 00:44:11.138
- but is he beautiful?
- 00:44:11.138 --> 00:44:13.373
- If I, if I, if I relinquish everything,
- 00:44:14.208 --> 00:44:18.645
- is there joy on the other side?
- 00:44:18.645 --> 00:44:21.915
- Or is it just duty?
- 00:44:21.915 --> 00:44:24.118
- And I don't think that's the Christian faith.
- 00:44:24.118 --> 00:44:27.621
- I think the Christian faith is that we are being
- 00:44:27.621 --> 00:44:29.990
- reconciled to the God of all comfort,
- 00:44:29.990 --> 00:44:33.527
- that at his right hand is joy forevermore,
- 00:44:33.527 --> 00:44:37.664
- for the joy that was set before him.
- 00:44:37.664 --> 00:44:39.733
- What was the joy set before him?
- 00:44:39.733 --> 00:44:41.368
- Being back with his Father.
- 00:44:41.368 --> 00:44:43.303
- And so, I think that's what I was missing
- 00:44:43.303 --> 00:44:45.472
- is that people were telling me to repent,
- 00:44:45.472 --> 00:44:47.841
- but they were not giving me a God
- 00:44:47.841 --> 00:44:49.409
- that was worthy of my repentance.
- 00:44:49.409 --> 00:44:51.979
- - Wow.
- 00:44:51.979 --> 00:44:53.213
- - It just, you don't wanna go to hell.
- 00:44:53.213 --> 00:44:55.582
- - It feels like what you've done today
- 00:44:55.582 --> 00:44:58.786
- is started telling that story to our audience.
- 00:44:58.786 --> 00:45:03.690
- If somebody wants to accept Jesus, how do they do that?
- 00:45:03.690 --> 00:45:08.629
- If they're you know, help them, just, your camera's
- 00:45:08.629 --> 00:45:13.133
- back off that way with the red light.
- 00:45:13.133 --> 00:45:15.068
- - Yeah, I mean, one, the want is a gift.
- 00:45:15.068 --> 00:45:19.940
- The desire to want to know and love and serve God
- 00:45:19.940 --> 00:45:24.545
- more is only something that the Holy Spirit
- 00:45:24.545 --> 00:45:27.381
- has produced in you.
- 00:45:27.381 --> 00:45:29.516
- But the truth is is that we have a problem
- 00:45:29.516 --> 00:45:32.252
- in the way and the problem is our heart.
- 00:45:32.252 --> 00:45:34.421
- The problem is sin.
- 00:45:34.421 --> 00:45:35.756
- The problem is that we are slaves to it,
- 00:45:35.756 --> 00:45:38.425
- but God is holdin' us, knows that that's a problem
- 00:45:38.425 --> 00:45:41.528
- that we cannot fix.
- 00:45:41.528 --> 00:45:42.763
- So, he sends his Son, who is God in the flesh,
- 00:45:42.763 --> 00:45:45.966
- to live the righteous, pure, unblemished life
- 00:45:45.966 --> 00:45:49.303
- that God has called you to, but that you failed at.
- 00:45:49.303 --> 00:45:52.206
- And this Jesus went to the cross
- 00:45:52.206 --> 00:45:54.041
- and took on the penalty of your sin,
- 00:45:54.041 --> 00:45:57.277
- died and rose also allowing you
- 00:45:57.277 --> 00:46:00.214
- to have power over your sin.
- 00:46:00.214 --> 00:46:02.416
- And so now your call is to repent,
- 00:46:02.416 --> 00:46:04.585
- to turn from your sin and to turn towards Jesus
- 00:46:04.585 --> 00:46:08.121
- in faith believing that he is all that he says
- 00:46:08.121 --> 00:46:10.757
- that he is and that he will do all that he says
- 00:46:10.757 --> 00:46:13.126
- that he will do.
- 00:46:13.126 --> 00:46:14.361
- And by the power of the Holy Ghost
- 00:46:14.361 --> 00:46:16.330
- you will be risen from the dead,
- 00:46:16.330 --> 00:46:18.165
- given new life, united with Christ
- 00:46:18.165 --> 00:46:20.067
- and you stir that up and you build yourself up
- 00:46:20.067 --> 00:46:22.936
- in your most holy faith by goin'
- 00:46:22.936 --> 00:46:24.771
- to somebody's good church, gettin' in that good Bible
- 00:46:24.771 --> 00:46:27.407
- and doin' you some good prayer.
- 00:46:27.407 --> 00:46:29.343
- And I pray that, I pray that that's helpful.
- 00:46:29.343 --> 00:46:32.279
- - How do they, if somebody is literally
- 00:46:32.279 --> 00:46:35.449
- flippin' the channels and there you are
- 00:46:35.449 --> 00:46:38.585
- sittin' there, they've been listening
- 00:46:38.585 --> 00:46:40.087
- for the last you know, 15 or 20 minutes,
- 00:46:40.087 --> 00:46:42.489
- is it the words they need to say?
- 00:46:42.489 --> 00:46:46.393
- What should they say in their room
- 00:46:46.393 --> 00:46:51.331
- or help them pray that prayer if you would.
- 00:46:51.331 --> 00:46:54.434
- - Honestly, I would rather them just be honest.
- 00:46:55.402 --> 00:46:58.405
- Be honest.
- 00:46:58.705 --> 00:47:00.173
- I don't know if the Psalmists had a guide all the time,
- 00:47:00.173 --> 00:47:02.809
- or a script.
- 00:47:02.809 --> 00:47:04.678
- But what they did have is they know themselves
- 00:47:04.678 --> 00:47:07.447
- enough to know where they're guilty
- 00:47:07.447 --> 00:47:09.283
- and they know themselves enough to know
- 00:47:09.283 --> 00:47:11.551
- what they need from God.
- 00:47:11.551 --> 00:47:13.320
- And so, to simply confess that, as you would any friend,
- 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:16.189
- hey, this is where I am, and this is what I need.
- 00:47:16.189 --> 00:47:20.928
- But, the difference is is that with a friend
- 00:47:20.928 --> 00:47:22.829
- they can't really supply your needs
- 00:47:22.829 --> 00:47:25.198
- in the same way that God can.
- 00:47:25.198 --> 00:47:26.967
- And so, there's a level of faith that says,
- 00:47:26.967 --> 00:47:28.936
- okay, I'm confessing to somebody
- 00:47:28.936 --> 00:47:31.204
- who has the power to do something about it.
- 00:47:31.204 --> 00:47:33.740
- So, that's what I would say.
- 00:47:33.740 --> 00:47:35.409
- Confess, be honest and believe
- 00:47:35.409 --> 00:47:38.312
- that God is actually able to respond
- 00:47:38.312 --> 00:47:40.847
- in the way that is suitable to his nature,
- 00:47:40.847 --> 00:47:43.684
- that will help you for your good
- 00:47:43.684 --> 00:47:45.819
- and that will glorify his Son.
- 00:47:45.819 --> 00:47:47.821
- - You described a conversation that you had
- 00:47:47.821 --> 00:47:50.490
- with God and you described it as kinda starting
- 00:47:50.490 --> 00:47:57.264
- with something you learned in Sunday School.
- 00:47:58.198 --> 00:48:01.201
- For God so loved the world he gave his
- 00:48:01.201 --> 00:48:02.936
- only begotten Son, and whoever believes in him
- 00:48:02.936 --> 00:48:07.207
- should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- 00:48:07.207 --> 00:48:09.109
- That means me.
- 00:48:09.109 --> 00:48:11.144
- Were you saved that night?
- 00:48:11.712 --> 00:48:13.947
- - Yes.
- 00:48:13.947 --> 00:48:15.048
- But the crazy thing is I didn't know that.
- 00:48:15.949 --> 00:48:18.719
- I went to bed 'cause I was tired.
- 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:21.221
- And I woke up and I went to church
- 00:48:21.221 --> 00:48:24.925
- and the one odd thing is that I had a peace
- 00:48:24.925 --> 00:48:30.230
- that I could not explain.
- 00:48:30.797 --> 00:48:32.299
- It was just this peace, peace means wholeness.
- 00:48:32.299 --> 00:48:36.303
- There was this wholeness in my mind
- 00:48:36.303 --> 00:48:38.438
- and all the things, and my best friend
- 00:48:38.438 --> 00:48:40.941
- used to work with me.
- 00:48:40.941 --> 00:48:42.109
- And again, I'm dressed just like Jackie
- 00:48:42.109 --> 00:48:43.744
- 'cause I might've been saved, but my closet wasn't yet.
- 00:48:43.744 --> 00:48:47.214
- And so, I'm still lookin' just like me.
- 00:48:47.214 --> 00:48:50.951
- And he said, you look different.
- 00:48:50.951 --> 00:48:54.021
- - The next morning.
- 00:48:54.488 --> 00:48:55.789
- - The next day.
- 00:48:55.789 --> 00:48:57.024
- And I think what he saw was that the veil
- 00:48:57.024 --> 00:48:59.626
- had been removed, truly.
- 00:48:59.626 --> 00:49:01.561
- But then, I get behind the register.
- 00:49:01.561 --> 00:49:03.230
- Again, I worked at a fast food restaurant,
- 00:49:03.230 --> 00:49:04.531
- and this young lady walked up
- 00:49:04.531 --> 00:49:06.199
- and she was attractive.
- 00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:08.702
- And two days before I would've tried
- 00:49:08.702 --> 00:49:10.971
- to get her attention to try to see
- 00:49:10.971 --> 00:49:12.406
- you know, if she was gay, if she would go,
- 00:49:12.406 --> 00:49:14.241
- all the things.
- 00:49:14.241 --> 00:49:15.442
- And I had this awareness of God that I had
- 00:49:15.442 --> 00:49:18.078
- never had before.
- 00:49:18.078 --> 00:49:19.479
- And it wasn't like before that.
- 00:49:19.479 --> 00:49:21.148
- I didn't think that God could see everything.
- 00:49:21.148 --> 00:49:23.016
- I knew that from church, that God saw all things.
- 00:49:23.016 --> 00:49:26.319
- It was just that this time, for the first time
- 00:49:26.319 --> 00:49:28.321
- in my life, I cared.
- 00:49:28.321 --> 00:49:30.223
- And that was the first evidence
- 00:49:30.223 --> 00:49:31.458
- that to be converted, to be a Christian
- 00:49:31.458 --> 00:49:34.561
- was not the absence and temptation,
- 00:49:34.561 --> 00:49:36.296
- but the imputation of reverence.
- 00:49:36.296 --> 00:49:38.165
- I cared that God could see my heart.
- 00:49:38.165 --> 00:49:41.334
- And I ain't know no Bible verses.
- 00:49:41.334 --> 00:49:43.003
- I ain't know no hymns.
- 00:49:43.003 --> 00:49:44.237
- I ain't know no CCM, no gospel, no nothin'.
- 00:49:44.237 --> 00:49:46.339
- But I just knew help, and I say, God, help me.
- 00:49:46.339 --> 00:49:50.410
- And he helped me.
- 00:49:50.410 --> 00:49:51.678
- So, that was just, that was the immediate sign
- 00:49:51.678 --> 00:49:55.549
- to me that I am not who I was yesterday
- 00:49:55.549 --> 00:49:59.286
- and I have not been who I was,
- 00:49:59.286 --> 00:50:02.155
- what is it now, 13 years.
- 00:50:02.722 --> 00:50:04.791
- - Wow.
- 00:50:04.791 --> 00:50:06.026
- And God wants to do that, God wants
- 00:50:06.026 --> 00:50:08.061
- to help everybody.
- 00:50:08.061 --> 00:50:09.262
- - Every day.
- 00:50:09.262 --> 00:50:11.665
- - It's the testimony of the church, that's all of us.
- 00:50:11.665 --> 00:50:15.135
- - So, the gospel was good news finally to you.
- 00:50:15.135 --> 00:50:20.807
- - Yeah.
- 00:50:21.041 --> 00:50:21.942
- - Finally, somehow.
- 00:50:21.942 --> 00:50:23.643
- And make sure somebody understands
- 00:50:24.411 --> 00:50:28.415
- that what you're talking about is good news.
- 00:50:28.415 --> 00:50:30.851
- - Man, it's good news because imagine life without it.
- 00:50:31.952 --> 00:50:35.522
- So, imagine if, as like we talked about Adam and Eve
- 00:50:35.522 --> 00:50:38.992
- earlier, imagine if after Adam we inherited his nature.
- 00:50:38.992 --> 00:50:43.864
- We are sinners and we just goin' about doin' whatever,
- 00:50:43.864 --> 00:50:46.900
- goin' to all these broken cisterns that ain't,
- 00:50:46.900 --> 00:50:49.836
- that ain't got no water in 'em,
- 00:50:49.836 --> 00:50:51.037
- wonder why we're still thirsty
- 00:50:51.037 --> 00:50:52.939
- and we die and then there's nothing
- 00:50:52.939 --> 00:50:54.774
- but judgment because of it.
- 00:50:54.774 --> 00:50:56.243
- Like, that's really bad news.
- 00:50:56.243 --> 00:50:58.445
- You know.
- 00:50:58.445 --> 00:50:59.946
- But, for there to be even immediately after Adam sins,
- 00:50:59.946 --> 00:51:04.651
- later on in Genesis Three, God promises
- 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:07.988
- that the seed of the woman will crush
- 00:51:07.988 --> 00:51:10.724
- the serpent's head.
- 00:51:10.724 --> 00:51:12.192
- Even immediately after sin, God preaches the gospel,
- 00:51:12.192 --> 00:51:16.663
- and says you know what?
- 00:51:16.663 --> 00:51:17.898
- This ain't gonna be the end though.
- 00:51:17.898 --> 00:51:19.166
- I'm going to send someone who's going
- 00:51:19.166 --> 00:51:21.268
- to deal with this problem at hand.
- 00:51:21.268 --> 00:51:23.303
- So, that's why it's good news.
- 00:51:23.303 --> 00:51:25.005
- The good news is that how we are
- 00:51:25.005 --> 00:51:27.507
- doesn't have to be who we will become.
- 00:51:27.507 --> 00:51:30.410
- We can be made into new people
- 00:51:30.410 --> 00:51:33.413
- and actually love it and enjoy it, you know.
- 00:51:33.413 --> 00:51:36.816
- Like, that's the truth.
- 00:51:36.816 --> 00:51:38.285
- And beyond all of that, when we die
- 00:51:38.285 --> 00:51:43.757
- we'll see God.
- 00:51:44.124 --> 00:51:45.959
- That in and of itself is the ultimate fruit
- 00:51:46.893 --> 00:51:50.530
- of the good news is that we will live
- 00:51:50.530 --> 00:51:52.966
- with God forever.
- 00:51:52.966 --> 00:51:54.601
- We will be, not in Eden, but in New Jerusalem,
- 00:51:54.601 --> 00:51:58.705
- a garden that Satan can't get into, 'cause there
- 00:51:58.705 --> 00:52:01.741
- will be no sin.
- 00:52:01.741 --> 00:52:02.809
- There will be no suffering.
- 00:52:02.809 --> 00:52:04.110
- There will be no death.
- 00:52:04.110 --> 00:52:05.312
- There will be no fear.
- 00:52:05.312 --> 00:52:06.446
- There will be no tears.
- 00:52:06.446 --> 00:52:07.681
- There won't even be lamps and light
- 00:52:07.681 --> 00:52:09.182
- and the sun because the glory of God is our light.
- 00:52:09.182 --> 00:52:11.484
- And so, I don't, if that ain't good news
- 00:52:11.484 --> 00:52:13.954
- I don't know what to tell you.
- 00:52:13.954 --> 00:52:16.790
- - I think the thing that you just said,
- 00:52:17.657 --> 00:52:20.627
- that God was there to help me.
- 00:52:20.627 --> 00:52:22.562
- That's the power of the Holy Spirit.
- 00:52:22.562 --> 00:52:24.231
- - It is.
- 00:52:24.231 --> 00:52:25.465
- - You know, that same Spirit that raised
- 00:52:25.465 --> 00:52:26.533
- Christ from the dead.
- 00:52:26.533 --> 00:52:28.068
- The Bible says it lives in us.
- 00:52:28.702 --> 00:52:31.438
- You know, and we're not on our own
- 00:52:31.438 --> 00:52:33.373
- and it's not just doin' all the dos
- 00:52:33.373 --> 00:52:36.676
- and the don'ts of the Bible.
- 00:52:36.676 --> 00:52:39.045
- It's being transformed and God there to help us.
- 00:52:39.045 --> 00:52:42.549
- I love that.
- 00:52:42.549 --> 00:52:43.717
- We're not left alone.
- 00:52:43.717 --> 00:52:45.785
- - He's our Great High Priest.
- 00:52:45.785 --> 00:52:46.753
- - Yes, that's great news.
- 00:52:46.753 --> 00:52:49.155
- - My takeaway is heterosexuality is not
- 00:52:49.155 --> 00:52:54.661
- a fruit of the Spirit.
- 00:52:55.161 --> 00:52:56.896
- - Self control is.
- 00:52:56.896 --> 00:52:58.265
- - Self control.
- 00:52:58.265 --> 00:52:59.633
- And he was there to help you that next day
- 00:53:00.533 --> 00:53:04.271
- with that temptation that you lived with.
- 00:53:05.138 --> 00:53:08.575
- - Yeah, and he still is, you know.
- 00:53:08.575 --> 00:53:11.945
- I think now that I've walked with God,
- 00:53:11.945 --> 00:53:16.049
- I'm technically a teenager in the flesh,
- 00:53:16.049 --> 00:53:18.318
- but where I am now is that I real, I'm realizing
- 00:53:18.318 --> 00:53:22.322
- that I just have bigger fish to fry than that, you know.
- 00:53:22.322 --> 00:53:26.059
- There are levels and complexities to my pride
- 00:53:26.059 --> 00:53:28.762
- that are just always coming out,
- 00:53:28.762 --> 00:53:31.331
- where it's like man, even the woman
- 00:53:31.331 --> 00:53:33.533
- that discipled me, she said, Jackie,
- 00:53:33.533 --> 00:53:35.802
- sexuality is not your only problem.
- 00:53:35.802 --> 00:53:38.605
- You need to learn how to love God
- 00:53:38.605 --> 00:53:41.841
- and die to the flesh every aspect of your life.
- 00:53:41.841 --> 00:53:45.412
- So even in our discipleship making sexuality central
- 00:53:45.412 --> 00:53:48.948
- continues to serve the narrative
- 00:53:48.948 --> 00:53:51.284
- that our sexuality is who we are.
- 00:53:51.284 --> 00:53:53.687
- But, we're more complicated than that.
- 00:53:53.687 --> 00:53:56.189
- There's so much, there's so much more of us
- 00:53:56.189 --> 00:53:58.391
- that has problems, but also so much more of us
- 00:53:58.391 --> 00:54:01.127
- that needs to grow.
- 00:54:01.127 --> 00:54:02.662
- And so, yeah, God is, God is faithful to his people.
- 00:54:02.662 --> 00:54:07.067
- - I love what Joseph Prince said one time
- 00:54:07.934 --> 00:54:10.437
- sitting on the Praise program.
- 00:54:10.437 --> 00:54:12.939
- He said, the purest form of loving God
- 00:54:12.939 --> 00:54:16.643
- is to dwell on how much he loves us.
- 00:54:16.643 --> 00:54:19.045
- And it seems like when we do that there's
- 00:54:19.045 --> 00:54:23.717
- a beauty to Jesus that we are attracted
- 00:54:23.717 --> 00:54:27.787
- to and that's what calls us to do better.
- 00:54:27.787 --> 00:54:31.057
- - Yeah, to abide in that.
- 00:54:31.057 --> 00:54:34.060
- - Whew.
- 00:54:34.060 --> 00:54:35.495
- - I love you, Jackie.
- 00:54:35.495 --> 00:54:36.696
- - I love you, too.
- 00:54:36.696 --> 00:54:37.497
- Gay Girl Good God.
- 00:54:37.497 --> 00:54:38.431
- - Thank you, thank you.
- 00:54:38.431 --> 00:54:40.367
- - My goodness, we'll see you next time.
- 00:54:40.367 --> 00:54:41.534
- - Love you.
- 00:54:41.534 --> 00:54:41.534