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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

Amber Smith & Gary Roe: Handling Grief in a Healthy Way

January 12, 2026 | 54:32

Amber Smith & Gary Roe: Handling Grief in a Healthy Way
Join Kirk Cameron to discuss pressing issues Christians are facing with compassionate, well-informed guests, and together, find actionable takeaways that we can use today, this week, and this month to bring more of Heaven to Earth.
#Author #Grief #Loss #Death #Trials-HardTimes #Healing #EmotionalHealth #PersonalStory #KirkCameron #AmberSmith

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Amber Smith & Gary Roe: Handling Grief in a Healthy Way | January 12, 2026
  • Kirk cameron: we all go through periods of grieving in
  • 00:00:00.790 --> 00:00:02.692
  • This life.
  • 00:00:02.826 --> 00:00:02.992
  • There are different stages of grief, and the process of
  • 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:06.296
  • Getting through each stage is different for all of us.
  • 00:00:06.296 --> 00:00:10.767
  • Experiencing the loss of a loved one, a job, our marriage, our
  • 00:00:10.767 --> 00:00:15.171
  • Health, and our hopes and dreams are just a few examples of loss
  • 00:00:15.171 --> 00:00:19.409
  • That can take its toll on us physically, mentally, and
  • 00:00:19.409 --> 00:00:22.812
  • Emotionally if we don't learn how to properly deal with them.
  • 00:00:22.812 --> 00:00:26.749
  • So, today we're gonna talk with author amber smith and grief
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  • Specialist gary roe on how god helps us during our process of
  • 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.524
  • Grief with his strength and peace so we can move forward.
  • 00:00:34.524 --> 00:00:38.895
  • Amber smith: god loves you, he has a plan and a purpose for
  • 00:00:38.895 --> 00:00:40.697
  • Your life.
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  • It doesn't make sense.
  • 00:00:42.031 --> 00:00:43.399
  • We don't always know the why of why things happen, but we get to
  • 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.268
  • Know the who, and there's purpose in that, and there's
  • 00:00:45.268 --> 00:00:47.137
  • Meaning in that.
  • 00:00:47.137 --> 00:00:48.471
  • Gary roe: each and every loss, i believe, is an invitation to
  • 00:00:48.471 --> 00:00:53.910
  • Greater intimacy with jesus christ.
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  • He wants to walk with us, he will through our grief.
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  • Kirk: let's get to it right now on "takeaways."
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  • [music]
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  • Kirk: in 2019, my next guest and her husband, granger, suffered a
  • 00:01:10.960 --> 00:01:15.698
  • Terrible loss when their three-year old son
  • 00:01:15.698 --> 00:01:18.168
  • River drowned.
  • 00:01:18.168 --> 00:01:20.670
  • Since then, she's been on a mission to share her message of
  • 00:01:20.670 --> 00:01:23.506
  • Hope through suffering to a hurting world.
  • 00:01:23.506 --> 00:01:26.743
  • She's written about her experience in her new book
  • 00:01:26.743 --> 00:01:29.712
  • Called "the girl on the bathroom floor: held together when
  • 00:01:29.712 --> 00:01:34.217
  • Everything is falling apart."
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  • Amber, thanks so much for joining us.
  • 00:01:36.586 --> 00:01:38.254
  • Amber: thank you for having me.
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  • Kirk: it was so great to talk to granger and to hear his
  • 00:01:39.622 --> 00:01:44.093
  • Perspective on what i would only be able to describe as seemingly
  • 00:01:44.093 --> 00:01:50.633
  • Impossible circumstances to hold on to faith, to hold on to hope
  • 00:01:50.633 --> 00:01:55.071
  • When everything else is falling apart, and it's really an honor
  • 00:01:55.071 --> 00:01:57.373
  • To have you here sharing your perspective.
  • 00:01:57.373 --> 00:01:59.609
  • Amber: thank you. thank you.
  • 00:01:59.609 --> 00:02:01.010
  • Kirk: and thank you for the courage to write a book about
  • 00:02:01.010 --> 00:02:03.413
  • This so that others can benefit and find comfort from the ways
  • 00:02:03.413 --> 00:02:06.983
  • That you've been comforted.
  • 00:02:06.983 --> 00:02:08.418
  • Amber: i was comforted whenever we were going through our loss,
  • 00:02:08.418 --> 00:02:10.486
  • And i wanted to be that for other people, so i hope that
  • 00:02:10.486 --> 00:02:14.123
  • That can be a little beacon for somebody else.
  • 00:02:14.123 --> 00:02:15.992
  • Kirk: well, could i start by asking you what inspired you to
  • 00:02:15.992 --> 00:02:19.362
  • Write this book, "girl on the bathroom floor?"
  • 00:02:19.362 --> 00:02:22.065
  • And with such a unique title, how should readers prepare
  • 00:02:22.065 --> 00:02:27.704
  • Themselves before they read your book?
  • 00:02:27.704 --> 00:02:29.939
  • Amber: i was really encouraged after granger wrote down his
  • 00:02:29.939 --> 00:02:32.642
  • Side of the story.
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  • I was really encouraged by a lot of our family friends, people we
  • 00:02:34.010 --> 00:02:36.446
  • Knew, strangers, they wanted to know what was amber's side, what
  • 00:02:36.446 --> 00:02:39.983
  • Did amber go through, what was her grief like?
  • 00:02:39.983 --> 00:02:41.985
  • And so by the encouragement of them and the encouragement of my
  • 00:02:41.985 --> 00:02:44.654
  • Husband, i started writing it, and i think i want readers to be
  • 00:02:44.654 --> 00:02:49.425
  • Prepared for a very raw, real story.
  • 00:02:49.425 --> 00:02:52.462
  • It was in the depths of grief.
  • 00:02:52.462 --> 00:02:53.796
  • I share very painful moments in my life but also very hopeful
  • 00:02:53.796 --> 00:02:57.200
  • Moments, and i just--i want readers to know that if they
  • 00:02:57.200 --> 00:03:00.403
  • Find themselves right now on the bathroom floor, that they're
  • 00:03:00.403 --> 00:03:02.639
  • Never alone, that their story isn't over, and that god is
  • 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.108
  • Still good even in the darkest valley.
  • 00:03:05.108 --> 00:03:08.044
  • Kirk: hearing that from you is so different from someone
  • 00:03:08.044 --> 00:03:10.813
  • Hearing that from me who's not experienced something like we're
  • 00:03:10.813 --> 00:03:14.984
  • Talking about right now, and from me, it might sound trite,
  • 00:03:14.984 --> 00:03:17.820
  • But hearing you say it, it carries such credibility
  • 00:03:17.820 --> 00:03:21.291
  • And weight.
  • 00:03:21.291 --> 00:03:23.159
  • What was it that helped you through your pain?
  • 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:27.630
  • Amber: well, i will tell you, i was not at the place that i am
  • 00:03:27.630 --> 00:03:30.133
  • Now on day one of my grief, and so, yes, those things, those
  • 00:03:30.133 --> 00:03:33.469
  • Christian platitudes, you know, god needed another angel or god
  • 00:03:33.469 --> 00:03:36.806
  • Has a purpose in this pain, you don't wanna hear that when
  • 00:03:36.806 --> 00:03:38.841
  • You're in that pain.
  • 00:03:38.841 --> 00:03:40.176
  • It does--it can make you angry.
  • 00:03:40.176 --> 00:03:41.644
  • But what helped me was wrestling through the grief, lots of
  • 00:03:41.644 --> 00:03:44.914
  • Prayer, lots of tears, opening up the word of god for the first
  • 00:03:44.914 --> 00:03:47.817
  • Time in my life and reading it cover to cover, seeing his
  • 00:03:47.817 --> 00:03:50.853
  • Sovereignty on every single page and wrestling with him through
  • 00:03:50.853 --> 00:03:53.956
  • That and lamenting to god in my pain and taking my pain to him,
  • 00:03:53.956 --> 00:03:57.994
  • That's how i came to where i am today six years later, and it's
  • 00:03:57.994 --> 00:04:01.364
  • Not perfect.
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  • Grief is messy and hard, and i still have very hard days where
  • 00:04:02.732 --> 00:04:05.301
  • I still cry, but the lord has been so faithful and kind to
  • 00:04:05.301 --> 00:04:08.938
  • Meet me there on the bathroom floor, meet me on my hard days,
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  • Show me who he is as he reveals himself to be in scripture and
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  • Give me the strength that i don't have on my own.
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  • Kirk: have you been a christian your whole life?
  • 00:04:17.847 --> 00:04:19.549
  • Amber: no, no, i was not raised in a christian home.
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  • I would have said that i knew jesus, i knew he died for my
  • 00:04:23.353 --> 00:04:25.421
  • Sins, but i wasn't living a life surrendered to him.
  • 00:04:25.421 --> 00:04:27.757
  • I had no fruit, i was very sinful, very worldly, and god
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  • Used this breaking in my life to save me.
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  • I didn't read my bible till i was 38.
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  • Kirk: was that after the passing of river?
  • 00:04:37.400 --> 00:04:39.402
  • Amber: it was, about a year before i started going to
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  • Christian women's conferences, starting reading devotionals, i
  • 00:04:42.705 --> 00:04:44.974
  • Started taking my kids to church for the first time at 37, and so
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  • The lord was drawing me, and i can look back now and see that
  • 00:04:48.745 --> 00:04:51.414
  • He was preparing me for what i was about to go through.
  • 00:04:51.414 --> 00:04:54.083
  • He was putting people in my life, he was giving me little
  • 00:04:54.083 --> 00:04:56.486
  • Bits and pieces of his word that were gonna sustain me in my
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  • Darkest moment, but no, god used this season of suffering in my
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  • Life to save me and open my eyes to what is truly right and good
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  • And what lasts, and that's only what's done for him.
  • 00:05:07.764 --> 00:05:10.533
  • Kirk: so, when i think of the profound mystery of god and his
  • 00:05:10.533 --> 00:05:16.072
  • Providence and his sovereignty and his timing of all things
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  • Working together for good for you, his child, i just can't
  • 00:05:19.909 --> 00:05:25.281
  • Help but think of how perfectly timed these conferences were in
  • 00:05:25.281 --> 00:05:31.587
  • Anticipation of what was going to come, and it ultimately
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  • Being, as you're saying, what i'm hearing you say is a
  • 00:05:35.224 --> 00:05:37.627
  • Catalyst for a fully surrendered life to the lord.
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  • Amber: yeah, i had heard that the lord was close to the
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  • Brokenhearted, and so when my heart broke, i ran to him, and
  • 00:05:43.866 --> 00:05:48.371
  • He met me there.
  • 00:05:48.371 --> 00:05:49.739
  • And so i--my husband and i read our bibles for the first time
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  • And crying over scripture and just praying and laying
  • 00:05:52.375 --> 00:05:55.711
  • Basically on the bathroom floor with my hands open saying, god,
  • 00:05:55.711 --> 00:05:58.014
  • I can't do this.
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  • You're gonna have to show me.
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  • You're gonna have to show me that there's purpose in
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  • This pain.
  • 00:06:02.084 --> 00:06:03.419
  • And he met me there just each and every day that i showed up
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  • And just kept seeking him.
  • 00:06:05.288 --> 00:06:06.622
  • Kirk: before the accident, did you have a different concept of
  • 00:06:06.622 --> 00:06:13.496
  • How god would be taking care of and blessing your family?
  • 00:06:13.496 --> 00:06:18.434
  • And did your understanding of his care and providence change
  • 00:06:18.434 --> 00:06:23.206
  • After the accident?
  • 00:06:23.206 --> 00:06:24.740
  • Amber: yeah, i was still such a new baby believer, so i didn't
  • 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:27.810
  • Quite know, but i had heard that god loves you, he wants you
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  • Happy, you know?
  • 00:06:30.446 --> 00:06:31.814
  • But through this process i have learned that god doesn't just
  • 00:06:31.814 --> 00:06:33.850
  • Want you happy, he wants you holy, and sometimes he takes you
  • 00:06:33.850 --> 00:06:36.786
  • Through very dark seasons of grief to refine you, to purify
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  • You, to make you into the image of his son, to remove idols from
  • 00:06:40.590 --> 00:06:43.326
  • Your life, to remove sin.
  • 00:06:43.326 --> 00:06:45.661
  • So he showed me who he truly was, not who the world says that
  • 00:06:45.661 --> 00:06:49.432
  • He is, that is just all loving and just wants you happy,
  • 00:06:49.432 --> 00:06:52.268
  • Healthy, and wealthy.
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  • No, he wants you holy, and he wants you bearing fruit for his
  • 00:06:53.603 --> 00:06:56.172
  • Kingdom, and i just have learned that in studying who he truly
  • 00:06:56.172 --> 00:06:59.509
  • Reveals himself to be.
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  • Kirk: hmm, wow.
  • 00:07:01.944 --> 00:07:03.312
  • For someone who's going through a very dark, dark valley right
  • 00:07:03.312 --> 00:07:07.116
  • Now, and they want to claim that promise, even though i go
  • 00:07:07.116 --> 00:07:11.554
  • Through the shadow of the valley of death, and i can't see that
  • 00:07:11.554 --> 00:07:17.360
  • My next step, i don't wanna be afraid.
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  • You're close right there beside me.
  • 00:07:20.296 --> 00:07:23.266
  • What can they do as a first step to find that closeness and that
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  • Comfort in the middle of their darkness?
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  • Amber: i think hit your knees, hit your knees in prayer and
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  • Just fully surrender and give it all to him and say i cry out.
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  • As the psalmists do in the psalms, cry out, lord,
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  • I need you.
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  • I need you to help me.
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  • I can't do this on my own.
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  • Seek godly friends, seek wise counsel, seek--you know, we
  • 00:07:47.390 --> 00:07:50.393
  • Were built for community.
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  • Don't isolate yourselves, get involved, make yourself go to
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  • Church, show up, study the scriptures.
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  • If you don't understand, pray before you read it and ask the
  • 00:07:58.534 --> 00:08:02.004
  • Lord to reveal himself to you, because he will.
  • 00:08:02.004 --> 00:08:04.340
  • He promises if you seek him, you will find him if you seek him
  • 00:08:04.340 --> 00:08:06.642
  • With all your heart.
  • 00:08:06.642 --> 00:08:08.010
  • So i think those are just first steps i would tell somebody
  • 00:08:08.010 --> 00:08:10.413
  • To take.
  • 00:08:10.413 --> 00:08:12.114
  • Kirk: yeah, i think everything that you're saying is
  • 00:08:12.114 --> 00:08:13.449
  • Exactly right.
  • 00:08:13.449 --> 00:08:14.784
  • We gotta get into the scriptures, or else i don't know
  • 00:08:14.784 --> 00:08:16.285
  • How to process and make sense of any of this.
  • 00:08:16.285 --> 00:08:18.354
  • What are you gonna say, we live in just a world of survival of
  • 00:08:18.354 --> 00:08:21.824
  • The fittest and random chance, and this is just what happens,
  • 00:08:21.824 --> 00:08:26.996
  • Get over it when my heart is breaking and my world is
  • 00:08:26.996 --> 00:08:30.299
  • Falling apart?
  • 00:08:30.299 --> 00:08:31.634
  • Like something's terribly wrong, and the scriptures and the
  • 00:08:31.634 --> 00:08:34.804
  • Gospel are the only thing i think that makes sense of that.
  • 00:08:34.804 --> 00:08:37.974
  • And so you're confirming that to me right now when you've gone
  • 00:08:37.974 --> 00:08:41.410
  • Through it, and you're saying the same thing.
  • 00:08:41.410 --> 00:08:43.613
  • Amber: yeah, that's an even scarier thought is that
  • 00:08:43.613 --> 00:08:46.082
  • Everything is a senseless tragedy or senseless accident.
  • 00:08:46.082 --> 00:08:48.351
  • There's no purpose in it.
  • 00:08:48.351 --> 00:08:49.719
  • Kirk: yeah, even the good stuff like love and joy and peace and
  • 00:08:49.719 --> 00:08:51.454
  • Kindness and great, that's just all nothingness too.
  • 00:08:51.454 --> 00:08:54.490
  • Amber: or do we believe what the scriptures say, that god loves
  • 00:08:54.490 --> 00:08:57.827
  • You, he has a plan and a purpose for your life?
  • 00:08:57.827 --> 00:08:59.662
  • It doesn't make sense, we don't always know the why of why
  • 00:08:59.662 --> 00:09:02.465
  • Things happen, but we get to know the who, and there's
  • 00:09:02.465 --> 00:09:04.834
  • Purpose in that, and there's meaning in that.
  • 00:09:04.834 --> 00:09:07.069
  • Kirk: amber, you talk in your book about the challenges that
  • 00:09:07.069 --> 00:09:09.739
  • Couples face when losing a child.
  • 00:09:09.739 --> 00:09:12.875
  • How did you and granger stay together when you could have
  • 00:09:12.875 --> 00:09:17.880
  • Very easily fallen apart?
  • 00:09:17.880 --> 00:09:20.783
  • Amber: that was only by the grace of god.
  • 00:09:20.783 --> 00:09:23.119
  • I mean, we went out very early on.
  • 00:09:23.119 --> 00:09:25.254
  • When river was going back for his organ donation, we went
  • 00:09:25.254 --> 00:09:27.823
  • Out--when we were in the hospital, we went outside, and
  • 00:09:27.823 --> 00:09:30.192
  • We looked at each other and we said we're gonna choose
  • 00:09:30.192 --> 00:09:32.094
  • Each other.
  • 00:09:32.094 --> 00:09:33.462
  • We're gonna fight for the good in this.
  • 00:09:33.462 --> 00:09:34.797
  • We're not gonna let this tear our family apart.
  • 00:09:34.797 --> 00:09:36.165
  • So we made this, you know, as granger sometimes says, this
  • 00:09:36.165 --> 00:09:38.567
  • Non-romantic agreement that we said i do, we meant it for
  • 00:09:38.567 --> 00:09:42.438
  • Better or for worse, and this is the worst part of our story.
  • 00:09:42.438 --> 00:09:45.341
  • And so we didn't know what that was gonna look like when we went
  • 00:09:45.341 --> 00:09:47.543
  • Home, we both grieved very differently, but we made that
  • 00:09:47.543 --> 00:09:50.479
  • Choice to choose each other every single day, and by the
  • 00:09:50.479 --> 00:09:52.648
  • Grace of god our marriage is stronger because of what we've
  • 00:09:52.648 --> 00:09:55.618
  • Gone through, and i'm so thankful for that.
  • 00:09:55.618 --> 00:09:59.055
  • Kirk: my wife and i host a camp for terminally-ill children and
  • 00:09:59.055 --> 00:10:03.893
  • Their families, and this started 34 years ago, and every summer
  • 00:10:03.893 --> 00:10:08.497
  • We meet families who are just fresh into the darkest chapter
  • 00:10:08.497 --> 00:10:13.169
  • Of their whole life, and they tell us how difficult it is on
  • 00:10:13.169 --> 00:10:18.541
  • Their marriage and that the divorce rate is just through the
  • 00:10:18.541 --> 00:10:22.144
  • Roof, like way higher than the other categories of marriages
  • 00:10:22.144 --> 00:10:27.550
  • That fall apart, like police officers and firefighters
  • 00:10:27.550 --> 00:10:30.352
  • And others.
  • 00:10:30.352 --> 00:10:31.687
  • What you're saying is just so important, and i've got to
  • 00:10:31.687 --> 00:10:33.989
  • Believe that your ability to stay together and fight for what
  • 00:10:33.989 --> 00:10:39.361
  • Matters when it would be so easy to just want to like unhitch
  • 00:10:39.361 --> 00:10:42.932
  • Your wagon and just run to a different life has got to be
  • 00:10:42.932 --> 00:10:46.001
  • Because of your faith in christ.
  • 00:10:46.001 --> 00:10:47.470
  • Amber: absolutely, and i've realized so much that it's not
  • 00:10:47.470 --> 00:10:50.172
  • About me, it's not about my pain, it's not about my
  • 00:10:50.172 --> 00:10:52.208
  • Suffering, it's about so much more.
  • 00:10:52.208 --> 00:10:54.076
  • And we have to have grace for one another for how each other
  • 00:10:54.076 --> 00:10:56.545
  • Grieve, and it's truly dying to ourselves, you know, as jesus
  • 00:10:56.545 --> 00:11:00.116
  • Tells us to do and sacrificing and surrendering your wants and
  • 00:11:00.116 --> 00:11:03.452
  • Desires and feelings for the betterment of your partner or
  • 00:11:03.452 --> 00:11:06.188
  • Your kids.
  • 00:11:06.188 --> 00:11:07.556
  • Your kids will grieve very differently as well, so
  • 00:11:07.556 --> 00:11:08.891
  • It's hard.
  • 00:11:08.891 --> 00:11:10.259
  • You have to make choices every single day to fight through this
  • 00:11:10.259 --> 00:11:11.994
  • Season of grief that you're walking through.
  • 00:11:11.994 --> 00:11:14.463
  • Kirk: amber, can you share even just one example of how god
  • 00:11:14.463 --> 00:11:18.868
  • Carried you through a particularly difficult stage of
  • 00:11:18.868 --> 00:11:24.140
  • Your grief?
  • 00:11:24.140 --> 00:11:25.541
  • Amber: gosh, i don't know that i could pick just one, i think
  • 00:11:25.541 --> 00:11:27.376
  • It's just--
  • 00:11:27.376 --> 00:11:28.744
  • Kirk: well, you could pick ten if you want, but just an example
  • 00:11:28.744 --> 00:11:31.614
  • So that we can see, you know, we love that, the poem that you
  • 00:11:31.614 --> 00:11:35.584
  • Hang on the wall about the footsteps, and it was then that
  • 00:11:35.584 --> 00:11:38.320
  • I carried you.
  • 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.189
  • Can you share a time where you felt like, yeah, that's real,
  • 00:11:40.189 --> 00:11:43.759
  • That's exactly what happened?
  • 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:45.661
  • Amber: i mean, i hesitate to talk about, you know, any sort
  • 00:11:45.661 --> 00:11:48.197
  • Of sign or anything that i felt from the lord, but i was really
  • 00:11:48.197 --> 00:11:51.133
  • Heavily grieving, and i was on my bathroom floor, and i was
  • 00:11:51.133 --> 00:11:53.536
  • Sobbing, and i was just begging god, please show me a sign,
  • 00:11:53.536 --> 00:11:56.972
  • Please show me that river's okay, please just--i need to be
  • 00:11:56.972 --> 00:11:59.208
  • Comforted, and i even felt awful after i asked for it, because i
  • 00:11:59.208 --> 00:12:02.077
  • Felt bad asking god for anything.
  • 00:12:02.077 --> 00:12:04.280
  • But the next day i went to--i asked him for a blue butterfly.
  • 00:12:04.280 --> 00:12:07.149
  • I said please show me a blue butterfly, never seen
  • 00:12:07.149 --> 00:12:09.185
  • One before.
  • 00:12:09.185 --> 00:12:10.553
  • Went to our mailbox station the next day, pulled out the mail,
  • 00:12:10.553 --> 00:12:13.756
  • And on top was a very large blue butterfly stamp that said
  • 00:12:13.756 --> 00:12:17.126
  • Thinking of you.
  • 00:12:17.126 --> 00:12:18.494
  • And i know that seems strange to hold on to, but in that moment i
  • 00:12:18.494 --> 00:12:21.197
  • Was comforted, and i think god comforts us in all types of
  • 00:12:21.197 --> 00:12:24.667
  • Ways, and i know it's dangerous to go down that path of seeking
  • 00:12:24.667 --> 00:12:27.503
  • A sign, but in that moment i was comforted by his love.
  • 00:12:27.503 --> 00:12:31.574
  • Kirk: wow.
  • 00:12:31.574 --> 00:12:32.942
  • I wanna talk so much more about this and open up the pages of
  • 00:12:32.942 --> 00:12:36.512
  • Your book for our audience.
  • 00:12:36.512 --> 00:12:38.714
  • After the break we're gonna talk more with amber about how to
  • 00:12:38.714 --> 00:12:42.117
  • Find hope and joy in the midst of suffering.
  • 00:12:42.117 --> 00:12:45.054
  • And then later in the program, we're gonna be joined by
  • 00:12:45.054 --> 00:12:47.756
  • Award-winning author and grief specialist gary roe, so stay
  • 00:12:47.756 --> 00:12:51.694
  • With us.
  • 00:12:51.694 --> 00:12:53.062
  • Gary: nobody knows suffering like jesus.
  • 00:12:53.062 --> 00:12:54.663
  • There is not a better grief companion ever.
  • 00:12:54.663 --> 00:12:58.334
  • He will turn that grief around and use it as fuel for good in
  • 00:12:58.334 --> 00:13:02.171
  • Our lives and in the lives of those around us.
  • 00:13:02.171 --> 00:13:04.773
  • [music]
  • 00:13:04.773 --> 00:13:10.007
  • [music]
  • 00:13:10.007 --> 00:13:11.181
  • [music]
  • 00:13:11.514 --> 00:13:15.051
  • Kirk: we're back with speaker and host of the "arise with
  • 00:13:17.921 --> 00:13:20.557
  • Amber" podcast, amber smith, discussing the process of grief
  • 00:13:20.557 --> 00:13:24.694
  • And discovering where god is in a world of hurt.
  • 00:13:24.694 --> 00:13:28.765
  • Amber, i love how transparent you are in your book, and in one
  • 00:13:28.765 --> 00:13:32.836
  • Of your chapters you discuss the parenting guilt that you felt
  • 00:13:32.836 --> 00:13:38.074
  • With river's passing.
  • 00:13:38.074 --> 00:13:39.643
  • How was god able to help you break free of that guilt?
  • 00:13:39.643 --> 00:13:43.813
  • Amber: yeah, you think as a parent, you know, you have one
  • 00:13:43.813 --> 00:13:45.448
  • Job, keep your child healthy, keep them safe, take care of
  • 00:13:45.448 --> 00:13:48.919
  • Them, and when you lose a child, you feel like you failed in the
  • 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:52.689
  • One job that you had to do, which was to keep them safe.
  • 00:13:52.689 --> 00:13:55.091
  • And so, yes, of course that mom guilt, the attacks from the
  • 00:13:55.091 --> 00:13:58.995
  • World telling us we were terrible parents, that we
  • 00:13:58.995 --> 00:14:00.997
  • Deserved to be in jail.
  • 00:14:00.997 --> 00:14:02.832
  • Kirk: you had people tell you that?
  • 00:14:02.832 --> 00:14:04.200
  • Amber: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that--yes, it was awful.
  • 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:08.004
  • That we deserve to be in jail, that our other children should
  • 00:14:08.004 --> 00:14:09.906
  • Be taken away, just awful, vile things that people said.
  • 00:14:09.906 --> 00:14:14.077
  • And so, really guarding my heart and trying to guard my heart and
  • 00:14:14.077 --> 00:14:17.714
  • Not read those things, but also replacing the lies that i tell
  • 00:14:17.714 --> 00:14:21.484
  • Myself, that the world tells me, that the enemy tells me with the
  • 00:14:21.484 --> 00:14:24.220
  • Truth of god's word, who god says i am.
  • 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:27.023
  • God's word says, psalm 139, all of our days are numbered before
  • 00:14:27.023 --> 00:14:29.859
  • The foundation of the world.
  • 00:14:29.859 --> 00:14:31.194
  • Every single one of river's days was numbered.
  • 00:14:31.194 --> 00:14:33.363
  • I hate how we lost him, i hate how it happened, but i either
  • 00:14:33.363 --> 00:14:36.299
  • Believe the bible, or i don't, and you have a day, i have a
  • 00:14:36.299 --> 00:14:39.102
  • Day, we all have a day, and so i have to believe that there was
  • 00:14:39.102 --> 00:14:42.505
  • Nothing more that i could have done.
  • 00:14:42.505 --> 00:14:44.240
  • If god wanted river to still be on this earth, he would still
  • 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.910
  • Be here.
  • 00:14:46.910 --> 00:14:48.278
  • Nothing is outside of his control.
  • 00:14:48.278 --> 00:14:49.980
  • Everything is taken care of by his sovereign hand, and so
  • 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.283
  • Replacing all of those feelings of guilt and shame with the
  • 00:14:53.283 --> 00:14:56.486
  • Truth of what god's word says really helped me through that.
  • 00:14:56.486 --> 00:14:59.923
  • Kirk: i believe every word of what you just said, and good
  • 00:14:59.923 --> 00:15:02.692
  • Theology is hard theology, it's difficult theology.
  • 00:15:02.692 --> 00:15:06.463
  • There's not a soft, easy theology that answers all the
  • 00:15:06.463 --> 00:15:10.734
  • Questions and makes it all feel good, but that, i believe, is
  • 00:15:10.734 --> 00:15:14.871
  • What can get us through the most--the darkest and most
  • 00:15:14.871 --> 00:15:18.475
  • Impossible circumstances.
  • 00:15:18.475 --> 00:15:21.344
  • How else do we explain the love of god when he sent his son to
  • 00:15:21.344 --> 00:15:24.114
  • Die on the cross?
  • 00:15:24.114 --> 00:15:25.448
  • How do i--how do we say that, you know?
  • 00:15:25.448 --> 00:15:27.217
  • The atheists come back with the vile comments that, you know,
  • 00:15:27.217 --> 00:15:30.954
  • What kind of god, like, sacrifices their own son?
  • 00:15:30.954 --> 00:15:33.590
  • And things like that, but we who are faithful readers of the
  • 00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:37.694
  • Story, we know the ending of the story, we trust the author
  • 00:15:37.694 --> 00:15:43.066
  • Because he's doing for us what we can't do for ourselves, and
  • 00:15:43.066 --> 00:15:46.102
  • He's willing to do and allow things he hates in order to
  • 00:15:46.102 --> 00:15:50.540
  • Accomplish the things he loves.
  • 00:15:50.540 --> 00:15:53.143
  • And we're so grateful, and we're--we will all erupt in
  • 00:15:53.143 --> 00:15:55.645
  • Applause at the end of the whole story when we close the book on
  • 00:15:55.645 --> 00:15:58.948
  • History and we say glory be to jesus christ throughout all
  • 00:15:58.948 --> 00:16:03.453
  • Generations, forever and ever, amen.
  • 00:16:03.453 --> 00:16:05.555
  • I don't understand it, but i believe it.
  • 00:16:05.555 --> 00:16:08.725
  • And it's that belief that you're telling us is that is what's
  • 00:16:08.725 --> 00:16:12.996
  • Getting you through this.
  • 00:16:12.996 --> 00:16:15.465
  • Let me ask you about how you found the ability to be present
  • 00:16:15.465 --> 00:16:20.070
  • With your other children in the midst of this grief, how they
  • 00:16:20.070 --> 00:16:25.275
  • Processed river's passing, and how you were able to
  • 00:16:25.275 --> 00:16:30.346
  • Comfort them.
  • 00:16:30.346 --> 00:16:31.714
  • Amber: yeah, that was one of the hardest roles i had to play was
  • 00:16:31.714 --> 00:16:34.317
  • To try to be a good mom when i was grieving my own grief, my
  • 00:16:34.317 --> 00:16:37.020
  • Husband was grieving, my children were grieving, but i
  • 00:16:37.020 --> 00:16:39.622
  • Made space for me.
  • 00:16:39.622 --> 00:16:40.990
  • I made--i would get up every morning before they woke up, i
  • 00:16:40.990 --> 00:16:43.359
  • Would go into the bathroom by myself, i would cry, i would
  • 00:16:43.359 --> 00:16:46.029
  • Release everything, and then i would wipe my eyes and go be the
  • 00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:48.498
  • Mom that they needed.
  • 00:16:48.498 --> 00:16:49.866
  • And we helped them process through their grief by allowing
  • 00:16:49.866 --> 00:16:54.804
  • Them to see us cry.
  • 00:16:54.804 --> 00:16:56.239
  • We didn't--i didn't let them see me gutturally cry, but i let
  • 00:16:56.239 --> 00:16:58.675
  • Them see me cry, and we talked about how this world has fallen
  • 00:16:58.675 --> 00:17:01.578
  • And terrible things happen, but with our eyes on the lord, we're
  • 00:17:01.578 --> 00:17:03.780
  • Gonna make it through this, and whatever emotion you're feeling
  • 00:17:03.780 --> 00:17:06.382
  • Is okay.
  • 00:17:06.382 --> 00:17:07.717
  • If you're sad today, that's okay.
  • 00:17:07.717 --> 00:17:09.085
  • If you're joyful today, that is okay.
  • 00:17:09.085 --> 00:17:11.554
  • Anything that you feel is okay, and we very much kept river
  • 00:17:11.554 --> 00:17:14.491
  • Alive, kept pictures up we talked about him all the time
  • 00:17:14.491 --> 00:17:17.560
  • And didn't lock his door and say they couldn't play with
  • 00:17:17.560 --> 00:17:20.263
  • His things.
  • 00:17:20.263 --> 00:17:21.631
  • He just still very much stayed a part of our lives, and i think
  • 00:17:21.631 --> 00:17:23.533
  • That really helped them to process and walk through it.
  • 00:17:23.533 --> 00:17:28.638
  • Kirk: i'm just blown away that you are courageous enough to
  • 00:17:28.638 --> 00:17:32.775
  • Share all of this in raw detail with those who have the courage
  • 00:17:32.775 --> 00:17:38.414
  • To read your book.
  • 00:17:38.414 --> 00:17:40.550
  • You also talk about the desire to want to try for another child
  • 00:17:40.550 --> 00:17:45.421
  • And a miscarriage.
  • 00:17:45.421 --> 00:17:46.823
  • What kind of help or hope can you offer to people who are
  • 00:17:46.823 --> 00:17:50.426
  • Going through that difficult time?
  • 00:17:50.426 --> 00:17:52.762
  • Amber: that was hard.
  • 00:17:52.762 --> 00:17:54.097
  • That was actually my husband wanted--he came to me one day
  • 00:17:54.097 --> 00:17:56.633
  • And said--it was maybe a couple months after river had passed,
  • 00:17:56.633 --> 00:17:59.002
  • And he said do you think you would ever want to try for
  • 00:17:59.002 --> 00:18:01.037
  • Another baby?
  • 00:18:01.037 --> 00:18:02.405
  • And i immediately said no, absolutely not.
  • 00:18:02.405 --> 00:18:04.774
  • I couldn't.
  • 00:18:04.774 --> 00:18:06.142
  • I would feel like it was a betrayal to river.
  • 00:18:06.142 --> 00:18:07.977
  • And i say i would feel, because that's not the truth.
  • 00:18:07.977 --> 00:18:10.380
  • Having another baby is not a betrayal to someone or something
  • 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:13.516
  • That you've lost.
  • 00:18:13.516 --> 00:18:15.451
  • It is a beautiful new chapter in god's story that he's writing
  • 00:18:15.451 --> 00:18:18.021
  • For our lives, and so i would just encourage them if they are
  • 00:18:18.021 --> 00:18:21.157
  • Thinking about having a baby in a time like this, to pray about
  • 00:18:21.157 --> 00:18:25.328
  • It, but know that you don't need to stay stuck.
  • 00:18:25.328 --> 00:18:28.665
  • It's not a betrayal to someone that you've lost to find joy and
  • 00:18:28.665 --> 00:18:32.168
  • Hope again.
  • 00:18:32.168 --> 00:18:33.536
  • The lord is your joy, your strength, your hope, so i'm so
  • 00:18:33.536 --> 00:18:36.806
  • Thankful that we prayed through it, and now we're blessed with
  • 00:18:36.806 --> 00:18:39.609
  • Little maverick.
  • 00:18:39.609 --> 00:18:40.977
  • We did have a miscarriage in between, which was another grief
  • 00:18:40.977 --> 00:18:43.446
  • On top of grief, but i had done the deep work of grief, and i
  • 00:18:43.446 --> 00:18:47.584
  • Had read my bible, and i had sought the lord, and i knew that
  • 00:18:47.584 --> 00:18:50.587
  • He carried me through the hardest thing that i've ever
  • 00:18:50.587 --> 00:18:52.555
  • Faced in my life, that i knew that there was purpose in this
  • 00:18:52.555 --> 00:18:55.825
  • Loss, in this miscarriage, so i trusted him with that pain,
  • 00:18:55.825 --> 00:18:59.596
  • Because i knew that he would carry us through.
  • 00:18:59.596 --> 00:19:01.631
  • And then after that we had our little boy, maverick.
  • 00:19:01.631 --> 00:19:05.001
  • Kirk: you also write that you know that it's possible to have
  • 00:19:05.001 --> 00:19:11.541
  • Both grief and joy, maybe not happiness
  • 00:19:11.541 --> 00:19:17.113
  • In the circumstantial moment, but that deep peace
  • 00:19:17.113 --> 00:19:20.116
  • Knowing that there is purpose in the pain.
  • 00:19:20.116 --> 00:19:23.353
  • How does someone arrive at that?
  • 00:19:23.353 --> 00:19:25.388
  • It sounds so noble, and it is worth more than all the money in
  • 00:19:25.388 --> 00:19:29.926
  • The world to someone who has just experienced that kind of
  • 00:19:29.926 --> 00:19:34.564
  • A loss.
  • 00:19:34.564 --> 00:19:35.898
  • How do you get there?
  • 00:19:35.898 --> 00:19:37.934
  • Amber: it's--you wrestle with it.
  • 00:19:37.934 --> 00:19:39.269
  • I mean, i remember the first time i laughed deeply after we
  • 00:19:39.269 --> 00:19:42.405
  • Lost river.
  • 00:19:42.405 --> 00:19:43.740
  • My two other children made me laugh deeply, and then you
  • 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.508
  • Almost feel this sense of guilt.
  • 00:19:45.508 --> 00:19:46.876
  • Like, how are you laughing?
  • 00:19:46.876 --> 00:19:48.211
  • You shouldn't be laughing, and that's a lie as well.
  • 00:19:48.211 --> 00:19:51.014
  • And so i just came to realize grief and joy can coexist at the
  • 00:19:51.014 --> 00:19:54.350
  • Same time.
  • 00:19:54.350 --> 00:19:55.718
  • You don't have to feel one over the other.
  • 00:19:55.718 --> 00:19:57.053
  • They can run parallel, and you know, the scriptures say we're
  • 00:19:57.053 --> 00:19:59.355
  • Sorrowful yet always rejoicing.
  • 00:19:59.355 --> 00:20:01.591
  • And one of the biggest moments of grief and joy was after i
  • 00:20:01.591 --> 00:20:03.993
  • Had maverick.
  • 00:20:03.993 --> 00:20:05.361
  • I was so thankful and so grateful to god that we had this
  • 00:20:05.361 --> 00:20:08.097
  • New blessing, but i was still so sad over losing river, so i
  • 00:20:08.097 --> 00:20:11.234
  • Would rock maverick in joy just with tears streaming down my
  • 00:20:11.234 --> 00:20:14.037
  • Face, and it's okay to feel all of that.
  • 00:20:14.037 --> 00:20:16.239
  • It's okay, you don't have to pick one or the other.
  • 00:20:16.239 --> 00:20:19.142
  • Kirk: what would you say to a parent or maybe the sibling of a
  • 00:20:19.142 --> 00:20:26.015
  • Child who has passed or experienced some other deep,
  • 00:20:26.015 --> 00:20:30.119
  • Deep loss and pain, and they're wrestling with the questions of
  • 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:34.424
  • Why, god?
  • 00:20:34.424 --> 00:20:35.758
  • Where were you when this happened?
  • 00:20:35.758 --> 00:20:38.261
  • You are all powerful, you could have intervened.
  • 00:20:38.261 --> 00:20:43.433
  • I don't know what to do with you.
  • 00:20:43.433 --> 00:20:47.270
  • Where do they go?
  • 00:20:47.270 --> 00:20:50.373
  • Amber: you know, first of all, if they're feeling that right
  • 00:20:50.373 --> 00:20:52.375
  • Now, i would do as job's friends did and not say anything for
  • 00:20:52.375 --> 00:20:55.945
  • Seven days and sit with them and weep with them and just be
  • 00:20:55.945 --> 00:20:58.081
  • Present with them, but then there comes a time when they
  • 00:20:58.081 --> 00:21:01.684
  • Have to know that there is hope, and you don't want them to stay
  • 00:21:01.684 --> 00:21:04.153
  • Stuck there.
  • 00:21:04.153 --> 00:21:05.521
  • And when they say, where were you, god, when this happened?
  • 00:21:05.521 --> 00:21:08.591
  • I only have to point them back to the cross, and god was in the
  • 00:21:08.591 --> 00:21:11.427
  • Same place in your situation that he was when he was pleased
  • 00:21:11.427 --> 00:21:15.665
  • To crush his son for you.
  • 00:21:15.665 --> 00:21:17.633
  • He hasn't changed locations.
  • 00:21:17.633 --> 00:21:19.135
  • He's still on the throne, he's still reigning, he's still
  • 00:21:19.135 --> 00:21:21.104
  • Holding it all together, and we don't understand the why, and we
  • 00:21:21.104 --> 00:21:23.706
  • Grieve the why, but we can know that there is purpose in it and
  • 00:21:23.706 --> 00:21:27.710
  • That he is working all things out for good for those who love
  • 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:30.546
  • Him and are called according to his purpose.
  • 00:21:30.546 --> 00:21:32.615
  • And when you don't understand the why, just know that he is
  • 00:21:32.615 --> 00:21:38.054
  • Giving you the who in his word, and he is there, and he hasn't
  • 00:21:38.054 --> 00:21:41.824
  • Forsaken you.
  • 00:21:41.824 --> 00:21:43.159
  • He loves you, and i would say to get around a godly community of
  • 00:21:43.159 --> 00:21:46.396
  • People and make yourself find a gospel preaching church and
  • 00:21:46.396 --> 00:21:51.968
  • Grieve your losses and your lament to god and then read
  • 00:21:51.968 --> 00:21:56.406
  • Your bible.
  • 00:21:56.406 --> 00:21:57.774
  • Open up your word.
  • 00:21:57.774 --> 00:22:00.243
  • Kirk: did writing the book give you a different perspective on
  • 00:22:00.243 --> 00:22:05.148
  • Your husband's grief?
  • 00:22:05.148 --> 00:22:07.316
  • Amber: we both learned a lot from each other.
  • 00:22:07.316 --> 00:22:09.118
  • I mean, when i read his book, i learned a lot of things that i
  • 00:22:09.118 --> 00:22:11.587
  • Didn't know, and he the same.
  • 00:22:11.587 --> 00:22:13.356
  • He would read that and say, well, i didn't know that, or i
  • 00:22:13.356 --> 00:22:15.858
  • Didn't see that, or i didn't remember it that way.
  • 00:22:15.858 --> 00:22:18.227
  • And what was interesting is that the event happened.
  • 00:22:18.227 --> 00:22:22.498
  • What happened with our son happened, but everyone in our
  • 00:22:22.498 --> 00:22:24.567
  • Family remembered it very differently and told the story
  • 00:22:24.567 --> 00:22:27.069
  • Very differently, which is so-- it reminds me so much of
  • 00:22:27.069 --> 00:22:29.605
  • The gospels.
  • 00:22:29.605 --> 00:22:30.973
  • I mean, they each have different perspective, different views.
  • 00:22:30.973 --> 00:22:32.308
  • It doesn't change that the event happened.
  • 00:22:32.308 --> 00:22:34.243
  • It's still true, but it's just told from
  • 00:22:34.243 --> 00:22:36.312
  • Different perspectives.
  • 00:22:36.312 --> 00:22:37.647
  • So that was really interesting to me as i was able to read his
  • 00:22:37.647 --> 00:22:39.515
  • And he was able to read mine.
  • 00:22:39.515 --> 00:22:40.917
  • And even our daughter remembers things differently, so it was
  • 00:22:40.917 --> 00:22:43.119
  • Very interesting.
  • 00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:44.487
  • Kirk: this is such an important book, particularly i think for
  • 00:22:44.487 --> 00:22:46.722
  • Moms, right?
  • 00:22:46.722 --> 00:22:48.324
  • And granger's got the dad's perspective, and so i'm so
  • 00:22:48.324 --> 00:22:51.327
  • Thankful that you both wrote these books so that a whole
  • 00:22:51.327 --> 00:22:55.898
  • Family can benefit.
  • 00:22:55.898 --> 00:22:58.534
  • Amber: yeah, that's our hope.
  • 00:22:58.534 --> 00:23:00.102
  • Kirk: so, amber, what's your greatest hope that people will
  • 00:23:00.102 --> 00:23:03.873
  • Take away after reading your book?
  • 00:23:03.873 --> 00:23:06.576
  • Amber: my greatest hope is that people know
  • 00:23:06.576 --> 00:23:08.110
  • That they are not alone,
  • 00:23:08.110 --> 00:23:09.645
  • That everyone in this life is suffering something, but that
  • 00:23:09.645 --> 00:23:12.181
  • Your bathroom floor moment doesn't have to be the end of
  • 00:23:12.181 --> 00:23:14.116
  • Your story, and oftentimes that moment can be the beginning of
  • 00:23:14.116 --> 00:23:17.620
  • When you feel like your world is falling apart it can be the
  • 00:23:17.620 --> 00:23:19.789
  • Beginning of something so incredibly beautiful, and i just
  • 00:23:19.789 --> 00:23:22.458
  • Pray that people leave after reading this and have a seed
  • 00:23:22.458 --> 00:23:26.162
  • Planted that makes them want to know more about christ, that
  • 00:23:26.162 --> 00:23:28.231
  • Makes them want to have a deeper desire if they know him to know
  • 00:23:28.231 --> 00:23:31.501
  • Him more intimately, and if they don't know him, i hope that this
  • 00:23:31.501 --> 00:23:34.504
  • Book can plant a seed to make them say i wanna know who she's
  • 00:23:34.504 --> 00:23:37.106
  • Talking about.
  • 00:23:37.106 --> 00:23:38.474
  • I wanna know this jesus.
  • 00:23:38.474 --> 00:23:39.809
  • Kirk: yeah, i know it will do that.
  • 00:23:39.809 --> 00:23:42.011
  • Thank you so much.
  • 00:23:42.011 --> 00:23:43.346
  • Amber: thank you.
  • 00:23:43.346 --> 00:23:44.814
  • Kirk: coming up after the break, gary roe will join us to talk
  • 00:23:44.814 --> 00:23:48.084
  • About the stages of grief and how we can overcome by turning
  • 00:23:48.084 --> 00:23:52.054
  • Our pain into purpose, don't go away.
  • 00:23:52.054 --> 00:23:54.590
  • [music]
  • 00:23:54.590 --> 00:24:00.005
  • [music]
  • 00:24:00.005 --> 00:24:00.997
  • [music]
  • 00:24:01.330 --> 00:24:04.867
  • Kirk: my next guest is an amazon bestselling author, pastor, and
  • 00:24:07.703 --> 00:24:11.874
  • Grief specialist.
  • 00:24:11.874 --> 00:24:13.309
  • Gary roe is a trusted voice in grief recovery.
  • 00:24:13.309 --> 00:24:16.946
  • He's been bringing hope and healing to wounded hearts for
  • 00:24:16.946 --> 00:24:19.448
  • Over three decades.
  • 00:24:19.448 --> 00:24:21.384
  • Of the many books that he's offered on grief, we are gonna
  • 00:24:21.384 --> 00:24:24.420
  • Be talking today about this devotional book, "grief walk:
  • 00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:28.257
  • Experiencing god after the loss of a loved one."
  • 00:24:28.257 --> 00:24:31.928
  • Gary, thanks so much for coming on "takeaways."
  • 00:24:31.928 --> 00:24:33.663
  • Gary: thank you, kirk, glad to be here.
  • 00:24:33.663 --> 00:24:35.264
  • Kirk: yeah, so appreciate you.
  • 00:24:35.264 --> 00:24:38.467
  • This is a subject that all of us at one point or another, sooner
  • 00:24:38.467 --> 00:24:42.872
  • Or later we're going to come face to face with, and that's
  • 00:24:42.872 --> 00:24:45.942
  • The subject of grief.
  • 00:24:45.942 --> 00:24:47.577
  • Gary: yes.
  • 00:24:47.577 --> 00:24:48.911
  • Kirk: i think grief is a profound thing.
  • 00:24:48.911 --> 00:24:51.514
  • I can't quite explain it, i don't even know why it exists,
  • 00:24:51.514 --> 00:24:55.084
  • But i can't deny it when it hits you like a freight train and
  • 00:24:55.084 --> 00:24:59.589
  • Crushes your heart and puts a lump in your throat where you
  • 00:24:59.589 --> 00:25:03.225
  • Can't even talk and blurs your eyes with tears.
  • 00:25:03.225 --> 00:25:06.762
  • What in the world is that?
  • 00:25:06.762 --> 00:25:09.131
  • So that's what we're going to talk about today, and i guess
  • 00:25:09.131 --> 00:25:12.535
  • The first question i have for you is what happened in your
  • 00:25:12.535 --> 00:25:15.504
  • Life that qualifies you to be a grief expert?
  • 00:25:15.504 --> 00:25:19.675
  • Gary: that's a good question.
  • 00:25:19.675 --> 00:25:21.043
  • I don't know that it qualifies me, but yet god used it to take
  • 00:25:21.043 --> 00:25:24.347
  • Me there.
  • 00:25:24.347 --> 00:25:26.182
  • Briefly, i was raised in an environment of mixed messages
  • 00:25:26.182 --> 00:25:29.251
  • And sexual abuse as a kid.
  • 00:25:29.251 --> 00:25:31.287
  • I grew up thinking i'm worthless, i'm unlovable, i'm
  • 00:25:31.287 --> 00:25:35.124
  • Damaged beyond repair.
  • 00:25:35.124 --> 00:25:37.193
  • So there were deaths, deaths of innocence, family, et cetera,
  • 00:25:37.193 --> 00:25:42.164
  • Lost both grandfathers at the age of 6, lost a best friend at
  • 00:25:42.164 --> 00:25:45.534
  • The age of 12 very suddenly in junior high school.
  • 00:25:45.534 --> 00:25:48.638
  • My parents divorced.
  • 00:25:48.638 --> 00:25:50.706
  • My mom went into mental illness.
  • 00:25:50.706 --> 00:25:54.176
  • I was living with my dad.
  • 00:25:54.176 --> 00:25:55.978
  • He dropped in front of me of a heart attack and never regained
  • 00:25:55.978 --> 00:25:58.447
  • Consciousness, so at the age of 15 i'm just kind of floating
  • 00:25:58.447 --> 00:26:01.751
  • Out there.
  • 00:26:01.751 --> 00:26:03.085
  • So there's a lot of grief in my past.
  • 00:26:03.085 --> 00:26:06.322
  • And i wish i could say, well, that was it, it stopped at 15,
  • 00:26:06.322 --> 00:26:09.792
  • But it didn't.
  • 00:26:09.792 --> 00:26:11.160
  • There have been three or four losses in my life where i really
  • 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:14.664
  • Thought--and to some degree it's true--my life as i know it
  • 00:26:14.664 --> 00:26:19.702
  • Is over.
  • 00:26:19.702 --> 00:26:21.437
  • And when the rug gets taken out from under you, a trap door
  • 00:26:21.437 --> 00:26:24.407
  • Opens up and you're in a free fall, you have to learn pretty
  • 00:26:24.407 --> 00:26:28.044
  • Quickly, lord, what do i do with this?
  • 00:26:28.044 --> 00:26:30.813
  • How do i--i just don't wanna cope, how do i use this
  • 00:26:30.813 --> 00:26:35.818
  • Grief somehow?
  • 00:26:35.818 --> 00:26:37.153
  • Because it's real, but how do i turn it around and use it
  • 00:26:37.153 --> 00:26:39.021
  • For good?
  • 00:26:39.021 --> 00:26:40.356
  • And god is an expert at that.
  • 00:26:40.356 --> 00:26:43.292
  • Kirk: i'm so glad you said that, because it implies that there is
  • 00:26:43.292 --> 00:26:46.228
  • Some kind of purpose in the grief, some sort of reason for
  • 00:26:46.228 --> 00:26:53.069
  • The pain, and it is so painful.
  • 00:26:53.069 --> 00:26:56.038
  • Gary: yes.
  • 00:26:56.038 --> 00:26:57.373
  • Kirk: when we grieve the loss of somebody, it's traumatic, it's
  • 00:26:57.373 --> 00:27:00.776
  • Devastating, it just--it stops the clock, and we expect the
  • 00:27:00.776 --> 00:27:05.448
  • World to stop and everybody to notice what just happened, and
  • 00:27:05.448 --> 00:27:09.819
  • When it doesn't, it makes it even worse.
  • 00:27:09.819 --> 00:27:12.354
  • Gary: yes.
  • 00:27:12.354 --> 00:27:13.723
  • Kirk: why do you think grief is so difficult for us as human
  • 00:27:13.723 --> 00:27:17.193
  • Beings to deal with?
  • 00:27:17.193 --> 00:27:19.261
  • Gary: we're all created in the image of god, of priceless
  • 00:27:19.261 --> 00:27:22.431
  • Eternal value for relationship with him and for relationship
  • 00:27:22.431 --> 00:27:25.201
  • With other people.
  • 00:27:25.201 --> 00:27:26.535
  • The same is true for every person that we meet, so if i'm
  • 00:27:26.535 --> 00:27:30.306
  • Unique in all of human history, and you're unique in all of
  • 00:27:30.306 --> 00:27:33.175
  • Human history, and we have this unique in all of human history
  • 00:27:33.175 --> 00:27:37.213
  • Relationship together, and then you die or i die, that
  • 00:27:37.213 --> 00:27:44.587
  • Relationship is at least temporarily severed, because
  • 00:27:44.587 --> 00:27:47.857
  • We're no longer physically present.
  • 00:27:47.857 --> 00:27:50.392
  • That is devastating, it's lonely, nobody else can really
  • 00:27:50.392 --> 00:27:54.363
  • Say i know how you feel, nobody else can really say i can relate
  • 00:27:54.363 --> 00:27:58.367
  • To you.
  • 00:27:58.367 --> 00:27:59.735
  • No, it's a unique, unique in all of human history relationship.
  • 00:27:59.735 --> 00:28:04.907
  • That's why it's so painful, that's why it's so lonely, and
  • 00:28:04.907 --> 00:28:08.978
  • That's also why each and every loss, i believe, is an
  • 00:28:08.978 --> 00:28:15.451
  • Invitation to greater intimacy with jesus christ.
  • 00:28:15.451 --> 00:28:19.388
  • He wants to walk with us, he will, through our grief, not
  • 00:28:19.388 --> 00:28:24.660
  • Around it, not above it, not below it, but through our grief,
  • 00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:29.331
  • And if we will accept his invitation to walk with him, he
  • 00:28:29.331 --> 00:28:34.270
  • Will turn that grief around and use it as fuel for good in our
  • 00:28:34.270 --> 00:28:38.207
  • Lives and in the lives of those around us, because he is the
  • 00:28:38.207 --> 00:28:41.877
  • Ultimate grief expert.
  • 00:28:41.877 --> 00:28:43.879
  • Isaiah 53 says he's a man of sorrows, well acquainted
  • 00:28:43.879 --> 00:28:47.383
  • With grief.
  • 00:28:47.383 --> 00:28:48.717
  • Nobody knows suffering like jesus.
  • 00:28:48.717 --> 00:28:50.586
  • There is not a better grief companion ever.
  • 00:28:50.586 --> 00:28:55.324
  • Kirk: talk to us about "grief walk."
  • 00:28:55.324 --> 00:28:56.859
  • What compelled you to write this book?
  • 00:28:56.859 --> 00:29:00.029
  • Gary: i wanted to write a christ-centered devotional that
  • 00:29:00.029 --> 00:29:05.067
  • Just kind of walks through the grief process with people, but
  • 00:29:05.067 --> 00:29:08.671
  • They don't know they're being walked through the
  • 00:29:08.671 --> 00:29:10.472
  • Grief process.
  • 00:29:10.472 --> 00:29:12.241
  • Each individual devotion, which is just two pages long,
  • 00:29:12.241 --> 00:29:17.012
  • Addresses a different aspect of grief, a different emotion, a
  • 00:29:17.012 --> 00:29:21.183
  • Different result in their life, a different relationship, et
  • 00:29:21.183 --> 00:29:23.853
  • Cetera, to begin to focus the attention on christ but yet meet
  • 00:29:23.853 --> 00:29:31.894
  • The person where they are in their grief so that they feel
  • 00:29:31.894 --> 00:29:35.331
  • Like as they're reading this book is a real companion for
  • 00:29:35.331 --> 00:29:38.968
  • Them, this book gets where i'm at.
  • 00:29:38.968 --> 00:29:42.104
  • I'm really not crazy, apparently other people experienced this.
  • 00:29:42.104 --> 00:29:45.441
  • I'm really not alone, the lord is with me in this.
  • 00:29:45.441 --> 00:29:48.644
  • And if his word is true, and i believe it is, then i will get
  • 00:29:48.644 --> 00:29:52.882
  • Through this, because he will get me through it.
  • 00:29:52.882 --> 00:29:56.552
  • So that's the goal, to help people grieve in a
  • 00:29:56.552 --> 00:29:59.221
  • Christ-centered healthy way.
  • 00:29:59.221 --> 00:30:02.458
  • Kirk: i love that, gary, because unlike this conversation where
  • 00:30:02.458 --> 00:30:07.463
  • You're explaining principles to me and how it works, what is the
  • 00:30:07.463 --> 00:30:10.599
  • Purpose of grief, you will get through it, this book is more of
  • 00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:14.770
  • A friend who's gonna walk through a process with you over
  • 00:30:14.770 --> 00:30:18.974
  • The course of months, maybe even years, to actually get down into
  • 00:30:18.974 --> 00:30:27.483
  • The dark valley with you and not explain principles, but just
  • 00:30:27.483 --> 00:30:32.221
  • Remind you of who you are, who that person was, is, why your
  • 00:30:32.221 --> 00:30:38.961
  • Relationship was so special, and why you're feeling the way that
  • 00:30:38.961 --> 00:30:43.365
  • You are, and then even without telling them that you're doing
  • 00:30:43.365 --> 00:30:46.335
  • It, you are walking them to brighter, sunnier days.
  • 00:30:46.335 --> 00:30:51.573
  • Gary: yes, absolutely.
  • 00:30:51.573 --> 00:30:53.776
  • I often describe grief as kind of a dark overgrown forest where
  • 00:30:53.776 --> 00:30:57.947
  • You're suddenly immersed in it.
  • 00:30:57.947 --> 00:30:59.581
  • The sunlight barely breaks through.
  • 00:30:59.581 --> 00:31:01.583
  • There's a path, but it's kind of difficult to discern, because
  • 00:31:01.583 --> 00:31:04.987
  • There's debris all over the place, there's trees down,
  • 00:31:04.987 --> 00:31:07.623
  • There's rocks everywhere.
  • 00:31:07.623 --> 00:31:09.992
  • And as you follow the path, you could swear over time i've seen
  • 00:31:09.992 --> 00:31:13.662
  • That tree right there about 12 times.
  • 00:31:13.662 --> 00:31:15.798
  • I feel like i'm going in circles.
  • 00:31:15.798 --> 00:31:17.800
  • But the reality is as you dwell in that forest and as you walk
  • 00:31:17.800 --> 00:31:22.671
  • Through it with jesus, slowly but surely a little more light
  • 00:31:22.671 --> 00:31:25.908
  • Comes into the forest, and the grief changes over time.
  • 00:31:25.908 --> 00:31:30.746
  • And so the idea is, again, we don't go around grief, we don't
  • 00:31:30.746 --> 00:31:34.950
  • Go under it or above it, we go through it.
  • 00:31:34.950 --> 00:31:37.619
  • It's inescapable, if you try to stuff it, it will leak, and if
  • 00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:42.424
  • It leaks, it's usually in ways that you regret later.
  • 00:31:42.424 --> 00:31:47.496
  • Kirk: gary, when somebody loses someone important to them,
  • 00:31:47.496 --> 00:31:53.302
  • Someone they love deeply, what is one of the first things they
  • 00:31:53.302 --> 00:31:58.007
  • Will experience?
  • 00:31:58.007 --> 00:32:00.442
  • Gary: first things they will experience are probably the two
  • 00:32:00.442 --> 00:32:03.579
  • Main grief emotions, sadness and anger.
  • 00:32:03.579 --> 00:32:07.483
  • At first we're stunned.
  • 00:32:07.483 --> 00:32:09.018
  • I mean, we're just shocked, it's just excuse me, this cannot
  • 00:32:09.018 --> 00:32:13.956
  • Be real.
  • 00:32:13.956 --> 00:32:15.824
  • But once it begins to settle in, and we'll go in and out of that
  • 00:32:15.824 --> 00:32:19.161
  • Over months, but once it settles in, the sadness comes, and then
  • 00:32:19.161 --> 00:32:24.333
  • Anger comes about how could this happen?
  • 00:32:24.333 --> 00:32:27.202
  • Why did this happen?
  • 00:32:27.202 --> 00:32:29.371
  • And there's all other emotions--
  • 00:32:29.371 --> 00:32:31.040
  • Kirk: where was god when this happened?
  • 00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:32.408
  • Gary: yes, absolutely.
  • 00:32:32.408 --> 00:32:33.742
  • That, for many people, that's a question that comes
  • 00:32:33.742 --> 00:32:36.345
  • Pretty quickly.
  • 00:32:36.345 --> 00:32:37.679
  • Kirk: gary, are there right ways and wrong ways to grieve?
  • 00:32:37.679 --> 00:32:40.816
  • And if so, just help us understand what are they?
  • 00:32:40.816 --> 00:32:45.821
  • Gary: rather than right or wrong, let's talk about healthy
  • 00:32:45.821 --> 00:32:49.291
  • And unhealthy.
  • 00:32:49.291 --> 00:32:50.626
  • Kirk: okay.
  • 00:32:50.626 --> 00:32:51.994
  • Gary: healthy ways to grieve, watch out for isolation.
  • 00:32:51.994 --> 00:32:55.130
  • Get your alone time, but watch out for isolation.
  • 00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:57.966
  • Relationships are what we are created for.
  • 00:32:57.966 --> 00:33:00.903
  • And so we need relationships while we're grieving that are
  • 00:33:00.903 --> 00:33:05.274
  • Helpful to us.
  • 00:33:05.274 --> 00:33:07.209
  • Now, sometimes that's a little hard to find, because we need to
  • 00:33:07.209 --> 00:33:09.812
  • Find people who will meet us in our grief and walk with
  • 00:33:09.812 --> 00:33:12.581
  • Us there.
  • 00:33:12.581 --> 00:33:13.916
  • We need to limit our exposure to people who are not helpful to us
  • 00:33:13.916 --> 00:33:17.820
  • In the grief process.
  • 00:33:17.820 --> 00:33:19.555
  • We need to, if we can, as much as possible, stay in the word of
  • 00:33:19.555 --> 00:33:24.660
  • God, even when we feel like nothing is penetrating.
  • 00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:28.063
  • Continue to pursue jesus, take good care of ourselves just with
  • 00:33:28.063 --> 00:33:33.635
  • The normal stuff of nutrition, exercise, et cetera, and then as
  • 00:33:33.635 --> 00:33:38.107
  • We think about the unhealthy ways, well, that would be we
  • 00:33:38.107 --> 00:33:41.210
  • Could think of those pretty quickly, i think.
  • 00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:44.680
  • But the idea is we need we need to get around people who are
  • 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:48.917
  • Helpful to us and limit our exposure to those who aren't.
  • 00:33:48.917 --> 00:33:51.820
  • That is going to be key in the grief process.
  • 00:33:51.820 --> 00:33:55.791
  • Kirk: does everyone who is going through the grieving process
  • 00:33:55.791 --> 00:33:58.994
  • Need a counselor, a therapist?
  • 00:33:58.994 --> 00:34:03.165
  • Gary: i don't think so.
  • 00:34:03.165 --> 00:34:05.134
  • Would a counselor or therapist be helpful?
  • 00:34:05.134 --> 00:34:07.369
  • Perhaps, and the reason i say perhaps is from my own
  • 00:34:07.369 --> 00:34:10.772
  • Experience is that it's amazing how many counselors or
  • 00:34:10.772 --> 00:34:15.010
  • Therapists, they think they know grief, but it's really more of a
  • 00:34:15.010 --> 00:34:21.550
  • Canned approach of sort of a checklist for some of them, and
  • 00:34:21.550 --> 00:34:25.254
  • Grief is anything but a checklist.
  • 00:34:25.254 --> 00:34:27.122
  • It's anything but a superhighway, and it's not
  • 00:34:27.122 --> 00:34:29.992
  • Linear stages, it's more of a back and forth twisted ball of
  • 00:34:29.992 --> 00:34:35.097
  • Yarn sort of, again, thick, overgrown forest.
  • 00:34:35.097 --> 00:34:40.903
  • The best therapist and counselor recognizes that, enters the
  • 00:34:40.903 --> 00:34:45.874
  • Grief process with their client, meets them where they are, stays
  • 00:34:45.874 --> 00:34:50.179
  • Separate enough to love them.
  • 00:34:50.179 --> 00:34:51.980
  • That kind of counselor is gonna be hugely beneficial, but
  • 00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:56.351
  • Everyone needing one, no, i don't think so.
  • 00:34:56.351 --> 00:34:59.521
  • It depends on your situation, depends on the loss, depends
  • 00:34:59.521 --> 00:35:02.124
  • Upon all kinds of individual factors.
  • 00:35:02.124 --> 00:35:05.827
  • Other people who are sensitive to grief who know grief can make
  • 00:35:05.827 --> 00:35:09.932
  • A massive difference, sometimes more of a difference than
  • 00:35:09.932 --> 00:35:13.168
  • A counselor.
  • 00:35:13.168 --> 00:35:14.503
  • And a grief support group, either through an organization
  • 00:35:14.503 --> 00:35:18.240
  • Like grief share at churches or through local hospices that many
  • 00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:22.711
  • Of whom offer free support groups, getting with other
  • 00:35:22.711 --> 00:35:26.481
  • People who are hurting and grieving helps normalize the
  • 00:35:26.481 --> 00:35:29.785
  • Grief for us so that we feel less weird, and that can be
  • 00:35:29.785 --> 00:35:34.156
  • Really helpful.
  • 00:35:34.156 --> 00:35:35.857
  • Kirk: gary, this is so important.
  • 00:35:35.857 --> 00:35:37.192
  • I wanna get into so much more of the book.
  • 00:35:37.192 --> 00:35:39.061
  • After the break, we'll continue our discussion with gary on the
  • 00:35:39.061 --> 00:35:42.064
  • Process of grief and how much god is walking with us through
  • 00:35:42.064 --> 00:35:46.235
  • Those painful seasons.
  • 00:35:46.235 --> 00:35:47.803
  • We'll be right back.
  • 00:35:47.803 --> 00:35:49.137
  • [music]
  • 00:35:49.137 --> 00:35:54.006
  • [music]
  • 00:35:54.006 --> 00:35:55.112
  • [music]
  • 00:35:55.446 --> 00:35:58.983
  • Kirk: through the stages of grief, how do you know if you're
  • 00:36:01.752 --> 00:36:05.222
  • Making progress and moving forward?
  • 00:36:05.222 --> 00:36:09.159
  • What's god's goal in the grieving process?
  • 00:36:09.159 --> 00:36:11.495
  • We're talking with grief specialist gary roe and the
  • 00:36:11.495 --> 00:36:14.398
  • Encouragement that he offers in his devotional book,
  • 00:36:14.398 --> 00:36:17.701
  • "grief walk."
  • 00:36:17.701 --> 00:36:19.903
  • Gary, so many people struggle to know what to say--
  • 00:36:19.903 --> 00:36:25.542
  • Gary: ah.
  • 00:36:25.542 --> 00:36:27.278
  • Kirk: to someone who has just lost a loved one, and you have
  • 00:36:27.278 --> 00:36:32.316
  • Some ideas that aren't about what to say, but things that you
  • 00:36:32.316 --> 00:36:36.220
  • Can do or who you can be, better than, well, you know, god has a
  • 00:36:36.220 --> 00:36:40.357
  • Purpose for all things, they all work together for good, or
  • 00:36:40.357 --> 00:36:42.693
  • Heaven just needed another angel, which is not true, by
  • 00:36:42.693 --> 00:36:44.895
  • The way.
  • 00:36:44.895 --> 00:36:46.230
  • I don't think people turn into angels miraculously once
  • 00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:48.198
  • They die.
  • 00:36:48.198 --> 00:36:49.566
  • Talk with us about this.
  • 00:36:49.566 --> 00:36:51.435
  • Gary: you're absolutely right, words are cheap at a time like
  • 00:36:51.435 --> 00:36:55.072
  • This, and chances are most people feel uncomfortable,
  • 00:36:55.072 --> 00:36:59.276
  • I don't know what to say.
  • 00:36:59.276 --> 00:37:00.744
  • Pay attention to that, because if you don't know what to say,
  • 00:37:00.744 --> 00:37:02.846
  • You shouldn't say anything.
  • 00:37:02.846 --> 00:37:04.181
  • I mean, it's just clear, the best thing we can do, the most
  • 00:37:04.181 --> 00:37:09.820
  • Powerful gift we can give is our presence to another person, to
  • 00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:14.558
  • Just be there.
  • 00:37:14.558 --> 00:37:16.794
  • If we have to say something, well, we never have to, but if
  • 00:37:16.794 --> 00:37:20.497
  • We feel like we have to, i'm thinking about you, i love you,
  • 00:37:20.497 --> 00:37:26.303
  • I'm praying for you, all of those kinds of things, keeping
  • 00:37:26.303 --> 00:37:31.075
  • It very, very brief and simple.
  • 00:37:31.075 --> 00:37:33.944
  • But i have a little motto for what to do with a friend or a
  • 00:37:33.944 --> 00:37:39.383
  • Loved one who's grieving.
  • 00:37:39.383 --> 00:37:40.718
  • It's called the three esses.
  • 00:37:40.718 --> 00:37:42.219
  • It's called show up, number one.
  • 00:37:42.219 --> 00:37:44.755
  • Show up in their lives somehow, some way, figure out a way, be
  • 00:37:44.755 --> 00:37:48.292
  • Creative, something that is consistent with your
  • 00:37:48.292 --> 00:37:51.095
  • Relationship with them.
  • 00:37:51.095 --> 00:37:52.629
  • In other words, if you rarely contact them, don't go all crazy
  • 00:37:52.629 --> 00:37:55.933
  • And contact them every day.
  • 00:37:55.933 --> 00:37:57.501
  • They're gonna think that's weird, so just show up.
  • 00:37:57.501 --> 00:38:00.337
  • Secondly, shut up, in other words, monitor your words, keep
  • 00:38:00.337 --> 00:38:04.742
  • That to a minimum, and third, serve them.
  • 00:38:04.742 --> 00:38:07.644
  • Find a way to serve them.
  • 00:38:07.644 --> 00:38:09.012
  • It can just be praying for them, it can just be sending a card
  • 00:38:09.012 --> 00:38:11.815
  • Saying i'm thinking about you, but find a way to serve them.
  • 00:38:11.815 --> 00:38:17.388
  • So, the big thing is just showing up, just being
  • 00:38:17.388 --> 00:38:22.059
  • Available, because the one thing grieving people feel is they
  • 00:38:22.059 --> 00:38:26.296
  • Feel forgotten by the world around them and especially their
  • 00:38:26.296 --> 00:38:30.734
  • Friends or their closest connections that don't know what
  • 00:38:30.734 --> 00:38:34.204
  • To say, don't know what to do, and so what they do is they just
  • 00:38:34.204 --> 00:38:38.075
  • Kind of withdraw, right?
  • 00:38:38.075 --> 00:38:39.977
  • They withdraw, and that hurts, but yet at the same time i get
  • 00:38:39.977 --> 00:38:45.182
  • It, because you certainly don't want to hurt them more, and so
  • 00:38:45.182 --> 00:38:49.953
  • You kind of take a back seat and you just kind of wait.
  • 00:38:49.953 --> 00:38:53.791
  • Kirk: right, that's hard.
  • 00:38:53.791 --> 00:38:56.527
  • Do you think that grief has a purpose?
  • 00:38:56.527 --> 00:39:00.230
  • Did god give us grief?
  • 00:39:00.230 --> 00:39:04.001
  • And if it has a purpose, how is god working through it?
  • 00:39:04.001 --> 00:39:07.538
  • Gary: mm, there's definitely a purpose in grief.
  • 00:39:07.538 --> 00:39:10.541
  • I believe it's designed by god as a natural and healthy process
  • 00:39:10.541 --> 00:39:14.645
  • To help us mourn and grieve the loss of someone very, very
  • 00:39:14.645 --> 00:39:18.582
  • Special to us.
  • 00:39:18.582 --> 00:39:19.917
  • I think of psalm 23.
  • 00:39:19.917 --> 00:39:21.351
  • When i think of grief for some reason i just think of that.
  • 00:39:21.351 --> 00:39:23.220
  • Kirk: me too.
  • 00:39:23.220 --> 00:39:24.555
  • Gary: you know, it's the lord is my shepherd, i lack nothing.
  • 00:39:24.555 --> 00:39:27.458
  • This is a hard road.
  • 00:39:27.458 --> 00:39:29.259
  • Sometimes there's green pastures, sometimes there's
  • 00:39:29.259 --> 00:39:31.762
  • Still waters.
  • 00:39:31.762 --> 00:39:33.197
  • He restores our soul, and i believe he does
  • 00:39:33.197 --> 00:39:35.265
  • That continually.
  • 00:39:35.265 --> 00:39:37.167
  • And even if i walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
  • 00:39:37.167 --> 00:39:41.138
  • Or more correctly probably in the original hebrew, a dark
  • 00:39:41.138 --> 00:39:46.210
  • Valley that i have never been in before, i don't know this place,
  • 00:39:46.210 --> 00:39:50.347
  • There's no green pasture here, there's no still waters here,
  • 00:39:50.347 --> 00:39:53.450
  • This is uncomfortable, i will fear no evil, why?
  • 00:39:53.450 --> 00:39:59.490
  • You are with me.
  • 00:39:59.490 --> 00:40:01.325
  • An israelite shepherd goes in front of his flock, he speaks,
  • 00:40:01.325 --> 00:40:05.262
  • He sings, they hear his voice, they follow.
  • 00:40:05.262 --> 00:40:08.098
  • The lord goes before us through anything that we're going to
  • 00:40:08.098 --> 00:40:12.603
  • Experience, including our grief.
  • 00:40:12.603 --> 00:40:15.138
  • So he goes before us, he goes with us, and again, there's that
  • 00:40:15.138 --> 00:40:18.775
  • Word through, he's leading us through the grief process.
  • 00:40:18.775 --> 00:40:23.046
  • And i believe that there are things that we can learn and
  • 00:40:23.046 --> 00:40:28.285
  • Experience in our relationship with jesus christ that you can't
  • 00:40:28.285 --> 00:40:34.591
  • Learn or experience any other way than doing the grief walk,
  • 00:40:34.591 --> 00:40:40.797
  • Than traveling the grief road.
  • 00:40:40.797 --> 00:40:43.867
  • And maybe--but this is on the back side of things, not the
  • 00:40:43.867 --> 00:40:46.904
  • Front side.
  • 00:40:46.904 --> 00:40:48.272
  • First, all we know is pain, all we know is separation
  • 00:40:48.272 --> 00:40:50.507
  • And frustration.
  • 00:40:50.507 --> 00:40:52.442
  • But the backside of this is a firmer conviction that so we fix
  • 00:40:52.442 --> 00:40:58.782
  • Our eyes not upon what is seen but upon what is unseen, for
  • 00:40:58.782 --> 00:41:03.253
  • What is seen is temporary, and what is unseen is eternal.
  • 00:41:03.253 --> 00:41:07.824
  • This is about jesus, and it's about eternity.
  • 00:41:07.824 --> 00:41:11.528
  • It's not just about right here and now.
  • 00:41:11.528 --> 00:41:14.731
  • So if we're willing, if we're willing, god can take a smaller
  • 00:41:14.731 --> 00:41:19.670
  • Picture of our life and blow it up into helping us get the
  • 00:41:19.670 --> 00:41:24.174
  • Bigger picture of what he is doing, and if we will say lord,
  • 00:41:24.174 --> 00:41:30.347
  • Guide me through this process, use my grief for your purposes
  • 00:41:30.347 --> 00:41:34.651
  • To love and serve other people, look out, because it's when
  • 00:41:34.651 --> 00:41:40.090
  • People take their grief and turn it around and use it as fuel for
  • 00:41:40.090 --> 00:41:44.027
  • Good that things really begin to change.
  • 00:41:44.027 --> 00:41:46.930
  • Healing, healing is happening all the time, but healing i
  • 00:41:46.930 --> 00:41:51.134
  • Believe goes from small steps to leaps forward when we're willing
  • 00:41:51.134 --> 00:41:55.372
  • To use what has happened to us to love another person.
  • 00:41:55.372 --> 00:42:00.043
  • Kirk: gary, thank you for saying all this and comforting us with
  • 00:42:00.043 --> 00:42:04.815
  • The words that healing on the front end may seem so far away,
  • 00:42:04.815 --> 00:42:10.887
  • Like it'll never happen, and all you're feeling is the pain, but
  • 00:42:10.887 --> 00:42:14.091
  • That slowly over time if we will walk through that grief with
  • 00:42:14.091 --> 00:42:18.462
  • Jesus, that we'll make leaps and bounds forward
  • 00:42:18.462 --> 00:42:21.431
  • As time goes on.
  • 00:42:21.431 --> 00:42:23.800
  • It's so hard, because we don't want time to go on.
  • 00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:25.969
  • I don't want to get away from this place where i'm feeling the
  • 00:42:25.969 --> 00:42:29.139
  • Loss of this person.
  • 00:42:29.139 --> 00:42:30.874
  • It's painful, but it's the best feeling at the same time,
  • 00:42:30.874 --> 00:42:33.744
  • Because it makes me feel close to that person.
  • 00:42:33.744 --> 00:42:35.545
  • I don't want to forget about them.
  • 00:42:35.545 --> 00:42:36.880
  • I don't want to dilute the meaning of the friendship or the
  • 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:41.318
  • Marriage or whatever, the relationship.
  • 00:42:41.318 --> 00:42:44.054
  • I don't want to ever get to the point where i'm not wrecked over
  • 00:42:44.054 --> 00:42:47.290
  • The loss of this person, right?
  • 00:42:47.290 --> 00:42:49.192
  • So, and yet i have to, because i can't function in this
  • 00:42:49.192 --> 00:42:52.829
  • Current place.
  • 00:42:52.829 --> 00:42:55.465
  • So, what do you think is god's goal for us in grief?
  • 00:42:55.465 --> 00:43:01.204
  • If we've got to go through it, if he's got a purpose in it, if
  • 00:43:01.204 --> 00:43:04.908
  • It's good for us, what is the final goal?
  • 00:43:04.908 --> 00:43:09.546
  • Gary: ooh, i'm gonna go to romans 8, 28 and 29, but start
  • 00:43:09.546 --> 00:43:13.050
  • With 29.
  • 00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:14.785
  • His goal is to conform us to the image of christ.
  • 00:43:14.785 --> 00:43:17.821
  • His goal for us as believers is to make us more like jesus day
  • 00:43:17.821 --> 00:43:21.725
  • By day by day.
  • 00:43:21.725 --> 00:43:23.093
  • We'll never be jesus, but to make us more like him.
  • 00:43:23.093 --> 00:43:26.596
  • Then we go to verse 28.
  • 00:43:26.596 --> 00:43:28.598
  • He works in all things, all things.
  • 00:43:28.598 --> 00:43:32.869
  • What will he use to conform us to the image of christ?
  • 00:43:32.869 --> 00:43:35.238
  • He will use everything, including, including the
  • 00:43:35.238 --> 00:43:39.976
  • Grief process.
  • 00:43:39.976 --> 00:43:41.344
  • So i think that's really what god's goal for us is, and it's
  • 00:43:41.344 --> 00:43:44.448
  • An eternal goal, it's to really transform us from the inside out
  • 00:43:44.448 --> 00:43:51.555
  • So that we are more and more like christ so that we are able,
  • 00:43:51.555 --> 00:43:56.493
  • If i could use the phrase grieve well and in healthy ways,
  • 00:43:56.493 --> 00:44:00.630
  • Because the one thing constant about all of us, we will
  • 00:44:00.630 --> 00:44:03.834
  • Experience loss.
  • 00:44:03.834 --> 00:44:05.168
  • I often say grieving well may be the best life skill anybody
  • 00:44:05.168 --> 00:44:08.672
  • Could have, because we're gonna face this again and again and
  • 00:44:08.672 --> 00:44:13.376
  • Again and again.
  • 00:44:13.376 --> 00:44:15.245
  • And there are no tricks to it, every loss is different, so you
  • 00:44:15.245 --> 00:44:18.949
  • Can't say, well, gee, i've been through this, so i know how to
  • 00:44:18.949 --> 00:44:21.885
  • Do this now.
  • 00:44:21.885 --> 00:44:23.220
  • No, that's not the way it works.
  • 00:44:23.220 --> 00:44:24.588
  • Each loss is new, and each loss is a walk with jesus through
  • 00:44:24.588 --> 00:44:30.193
  • The grief.
  • 00:44:30.193 --> 00:44:31.528
  • Kirk: i do believe that grief is a great gift from god.
  • 00:44:31.528 --> 00:44:34.364
  • When i lost my friend marshall foster a couple of years ago at
  • 00:44:34.364 --> 00:44:39.136
  • The, you know, a couple years from when we're recording this,
  • 00:44:39.136 --> 00:44:42.172
  • I was so wrecked, and it was so unexpected, because i didn't
  • 00:44:42.172 --> 00:44:46.743
  • Know him as long as i knew family members who have passed
  • 00:44:46.743 --> 00:44:50.013
  • Away, but i knew it was some kind of a gift, not only because
  • 00:44:50.013 --> 00:44:56.987
  • The lack of grief would expose something about the shallowness
  • 00:44:56.987 --> 00:44:59.823
  • Of my heart, but there was something that was--god was
  • 00:44:59.823 --> 00:45:03.860
  • Doing inside of me at that time that helped me prepare for the
  • 00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:07.464
  • Future, that made me think about my legacy, that made me think
  • 00:45:07.464 --> 00:45:10.133
  • About the value of time and the relationships i have with those
  • 00:45:10.133 --> 00:45:13.136
  • Who are still here, the length of eternity and the shortness of
  • 00:45:13.136 --> 00:45:16.840
  • This, like all these things are coming to me during the grief
  • 00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:20.710
  • Process, and i conveniently ignore all of it when i'm not in
  • 00:45:20.710 --> 00:45:24.114
  • A grieving process.
  • 00:45:24.114 --> 00:45:26.316
  • Talk to us just finally here about some proactive things we
  • 00:45:26.316 --> 00:45:30.654
  • Can do to help a friend or a loved one the first christmas
  • 00:45:30.654 --> 00:45:36.827
  • Without that person.
  • 00:45:36.827 --> 00:45:39.863
  • They've lost a child, they've lost a parent, they've lost a
  • 00:45:39.863 --> 00:45:42.966
  • Friend, and it's their birthday for the first time, what can
  • 00:45:42.966 --> 00:45:46.536
  • We do?
  • 00:45:46.536 --> 00:45:47.871
  • Gary: yes, during those days it is as if those days surface the
  • 00:45:47.871 --> 00:45:52.542
  • Loss again and throw it right in our face, because those days
  • 00:45:52.542 --> 00:45:56.346
  • Have memories attached to them.
  • 00:45:56.346 --> 00:45:59.249
  • And so as you're going into the holidays, be aware that the
  • 00:45:59.249 --> 00:46:03.019
  • Grieving people around you are far more aware of who's not
  • 00:46:03.019 --> 00:46:06.623
  • There than who's there.
  • 00:46:06.623 --> 00:46:09.025
  • It's almost--c.s. lewis said about his wife
  • 00:46:09.025 --> 00:46:11.127
  • After she passed away, her absence is
  • 00:46:11.127 --> 00:46:13.430
  • Like the sky, it permeates everything.
  • 00:46:13.430 --> 00:46:18.101
  • That's true, especially over the holidays.
  • 00:46:18.101 --> 00:46:21.771
  • So, bearing that in mind, listen well would be the first thing i
  • 00:46:21.771 --> 00:46:28.178
  • Would say.
  • 00:46:28.178 --> 00:46:29.512
  • Ask them to share a memory.
  • 00:46:29.512 --> 00:46:32.182
  • Let them talk, do not judge them, do not try to fix them or
  • 00:46:32.182 --> 00:46:37.254
  • Help them feel better in any way.
  • 00:46:37.254 --> 00:46:39.890
  • Don't try to pull them out.
  • 00:46:39.890 --> 00:46:42.525
  • Kirk: what's wrong with doing that?
  • 00:46:42.525 --> 00:46:43.994
  • Gary: trying to help them feel better?
  • 00:46:43.994 --> 00:46:45.362
  • Kirk: yeah, trying to fix the way they feel.
  • 00:46:45.362 --> 00:46:47.063
  • Gary: well, number one, it never works.
  • 00:46:47.063 --> 00:46:48.565
  • Kirk: okay.
  • 00:46:48.565 --> 00:46:49.933
  • Gary: you don't have that power.
  • 00:46:49.933 --> 00:46:51.268
  • Number two, all it does is invalidates their grief.
  • 00:46:51.268 --> 00:46:56.039
  • It says what i am feeling is not acceptable, and you're trying to
  • 00:46:56.039 --> 00:47:00.644
  • Draw me into your world.
  • 00:47:00.644 --> 00:47:02.579
  • Could you just come in my world for a little while and walk with
  • 00:47:02.579 --> 00:47:05.949
  • Me here in my grief as my friend?
  • 00:47:05.949 --> 00:47:09.653
  • Please be quiet for a little while and just listen to me or
  • 00:47:09.653 --> 00:47:14.224
  • Just sit there in silence with me like job's three friends did
  • 00:47:14.224 --> 00:47:17.794
  • For the first week.
  • 00:47:17.794 --> 00:47:19.396
  • They blew it when they started talking, right?
  • 00:47:19.396 --> 00:47:22.565
  • They blew it when they figure-- we've got this figured out, we
  • 00:47:22.565 --> 00:47:25.869
  • Know how to fix him, and here they come.
  • 00:47:25.869 --> 00:47:29.105
  • So, the big thing is being able to just let them be.
  • 00:47:29.105 --> 00:47:35.145
  • Keep your expectations of your grieving friend very, very,
  • 00:47:35.145 --> 00:47:38.515
  • Very, very low.
  • 00:47:38.515 --> 00:47:40.383
  • Ask them what they want to do.
  • 00:47:40.383 --> 00:47:43.253
  • Don't come to them with invitations.
  • 00:47:43.253 --> 00:47:45.622
  • You can invite them, you can invite them, but you can also
  • 00:47:45.622 --> 00:47:48.892
  • Say, you know, i understand this is a very difficult time, and if
  • 00:47:48.892 --> 00:47:51.728
  • You have to back out at the last moment, that's no problem with
  • 00:47:51.728 --> 00:47:54.230
  • Me whatsoever.
  • 00:47:54.230 --> 00:47:55.899
  • But really being sensitive to them where they are.
  • 00:47:55.899 --> 00:47:59.202
  • Just be yourself and ask yourself what would it be like
  • 00:47:59.202 --> 00:48:03.306
  • To love them no strings attached, no agenda, what would
  • 00:48:03.306 --> 00:48:07.143
  • That look like?
  • 00:48:07.143 --> 00:48:09.045
  • Kirk: this is such important information.
  • 00:48:09.045 --> 00:48:12.382
  • This is such an important book.
  • 00:48:12.382 --> 00:48:13.783
  • Thank you for writing it, and thanks for talking with
  • 00:48:13.783 --> 00:48:15.618
  • Us today.
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  • Gary: kirk, thank you for the opportunity.
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  • Lots of grieving people out there.
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  • God bless them.
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  • Kirk: yeah, amen.
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  • After the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
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  • [music]
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  • [music]
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  • [music]
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  • Kirk: i had such an encouraging conversation today with amber
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  • Smith and gary roe about walking through grief and times
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  • Of suffering.
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  • From amber's insight to holding on to both sorrow and joy to
  • 00:48:47.250 --> 00:48:51.654
  • Gary's wisdom about showing up for others in their pain, we
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  • Explored how god meets us in the middle of our hardest moments
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  • And how his presence can bring purpose, hope, and healing.
  • 00:48:59.662 --> 00:49:04.801
  • Let's look at today's takeaways.
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  • God doesn't want you happy, he wants you holy.
  • 00:49:07.504 --> 00:49:11.508
  • I love how amber said that, that when we don't understand the
  • 00:49:11.508 --> 00:49:15.178
  • Why, god gives us the who.
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  • Scripture says that the lord draws near to the brokenhearted.
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  • It's in our greatest pain that god is refining us and revealing
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  • More of his character.
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  • Without jesus, our pain can feel like a senseless tragedy, but
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  • With jesus, our pain becomes something he can refine
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  • Into purpose.
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  • Steps to find purpose in your suffering.
  • 00:49:41.671 --> 00:49:44.574
  • Surrender your grief to god.
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  • Don't isolate, surround yourself with godly friends and a
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  • Local church.
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  • Open your bible, pray that god will reveal himself to you and
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  • Give you understanding of the scriptures.
  • 00:49:57.454 --> 00:50:01.558
  • Hold both grief and joy.
  • 00:50:01.558 --> 00:50:04.727
  • Amber shared a powerful image, rocking her newborn while
  • 00:50:04.727 --> 00:50:08.631
  • Grieving the son she lost, joy in her arms, sorrow streaming
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  • Down her face.
  • 00:50:14.337 --> 00:50:15.939
  • That is a real picture of holding grief and joy at the
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  • Same time.
  • 00:50:19.843 --> 00:50:21.377
  • When we're grieving, it's easy to feel guilty when we laugh,
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  • When we smile or enjoy the parts of our lives that still remain.
  • 00:50:25.582 --> 00:50:30.019
  • And like amber said, it's not a betrayal of what or who we've
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  • Lost to experience joy in the present.
  • 00:50:34.624 --> 00:50:38.895
  • Grief and joy can coexist.
  • 00:50:38.895 --> 00:50:42.065
  • You don't have to pick one or the other, because as amber
  • 00:50:42.065 --> 00:50:45.668
  • Said, choosing only keeps us stuck.
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  • Don't walk alone.
  • 00:50:50.607 --> 00:50:52.542
  • I loved how gary described grief like walking through
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  • A dark forest.
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  • It feels unfamiliar, lonely, and at times like we're circling the
  • 00:50:57.614 --> 00:51:02.752
  • Same path over and over.
  • 00:51:02.752 --> 00:51:06.156
  • His encouragement was simple and wise.
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  • Don't try to go around the grief, go through it with god
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  • And others.
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  • And i love how he said it, he said get around people who are
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  • Helpful, and limit exposure to those who aren't.
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  • Give the gift of your presence.
  • 00:51:23.806 --> 00:51:26.609
  • One of the most powerful gifts, gary said, was when we offer
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  • Someone who's grieving our presence, not our perfect words,
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  • Not solutions, just showing up.
  • 00:51:35.051 --> 00:51:39.055
  • Gary said he calls it the three esses, show up, shut up, or
  • 00:51:39.055 --> 00:51:44.093
  • Monitor our words and serve them.
  • 00:51:44.093 --> 00:51:47.931
  • If we do speak, he reminded us to keep it simple.
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  • I'm thinking about you, i love you, and i'm praying for you.
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  • When our grieving friends feel forgotten, our presence tells
  • 00:51:56.940 --> 00:52:00.910
  • Them that their grief is real.
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  • We're not trying to fix it, and we're willing to be
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  • With them in it.
  • 00:52:06.516 --> 00:52:08.218
  • So, challenge yourself this week, who in your life is
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  • Grieving, and how can you simply show up for them?
  • 00:52:11.654 --> 00:52:16.426
  • That's all for this episode of "takeaways," thanks
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  • For watching.
  • 00:52:18.895 --> 00:52:20.263
  • And if you've enjoyed this show, don't forget to set your dvr so
  • 00:52:20.263 --> 00:52:22.932
  • You never miss an episode.
  • 00:52:22.932 --> 00:52:24.701
  • And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
  • 00:52:24.701 --> 00:52:27.670
  • Searching for takeaways on the tbn+ app or by visiting the kirk
  • 00:52:27.670 --> 00:52:32.909
  • Cameron on tbn youtube channel.
  • 00:52:32.909 --> 00:52:35.678
  • We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
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  • [music]
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