Grant Skeldon & Brett McCracken: Controlling our Digital Addictions & Connecting Generations | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

September 8, 2025 | 55:2

Kirk Cameron is joined by Grant Skeldon to discuss how we can better disciple the millennial generation and Brett McCracken on balancing the technical advances of our world in our lives.

#Author #Culture #Technology #SocialMedia #Generations #Parenting #Parents #Kids #Communication #Education #Faith #Gospel

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Grant Skeldon & Brett McCracken: Controlling our Digital Addictions & Connecting Generations | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | September 8, 2025

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Kirk cameron: oh, hey, hey everyone, does what i'm doing
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Right now look familiar?
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Next time you're in a restaurant or at the ballpark or at the
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Airport, look around and see how many people are totally focused
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On their phones.
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I know we're all guilty of it, but is it really a problem or
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Just a normal part of our lives in this digital culture?
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We'll discuss this and ways we can better connect and teach
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Younger generations today with my guests, grant skeldon and
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Brett mccracken.
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Let's get to it on "takeaways."
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Grant skeldon: whenever chronologically superior
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Christians bring boldness and redemption, no matter--if god's
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Coming back tomorrow, let's still plant a tree today.
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Till he comes back, let's still be a part of redemption.
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Brett mccracken: less and less of life will be lived in an
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Embodied way, but i think that's bad, because that is subhuman.
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That's not the way we're created.
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The gathering in physical being is god's design for the church.
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Kirk: i'm really excited about my first guest, grant skeldon.
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He has a passion for uniting diverse and dynamic young
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Leaders to radically reach the next generation.
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He serves as the next gen director for thinq with gabe and
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Rebekah lyons, and his book, "the passion generation,"
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Addresses ways that we can bring our older and younger
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Generations together and learn from one another.
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Grant, thanks so much for coming on "takeaways."
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Grant: thanks for having me.
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Kirk: i remember that we met at a church on its opening day, i
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Think it was called the way church in east nashville, which
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Reminds me a lot of los angeles.
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You know, i kind of moved to middle tennessee to get away
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From california and los angeles, and i thought, wait a minute,
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I'm right back here again.
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But it was a great morning, and my kids have so appreciated you
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And your influence and impact on their lives and the lives of
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Their friends.
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Grant: one, you have amazing kids.
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Like, olivia's amazing.
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Every time--first time we met her, just this easy soft spot
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For her.
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You can tell you and your wife have been very intentional
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With her.
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The church, it's been a year and a half, way church is, like,
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About 800 people now.
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It's, honestly, kind of a young adult ministry.
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It's all these young people that are coming to christ, like 700
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People have given their life to the lord.
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And i just think it's a really big encouragement of a world
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That's kind of worried about the future of the church, the
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Next generation.
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"man, is god just gonna come back, please, and save us?"
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We're actually seeing this, like, reversal of, no, there's a
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Generation that's, like, really hungry for god.
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Kirk: hungry for god, and that's what we want to see, especially
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As parents.
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So, i'm 55 years old.
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Can't believe it, how did that happen?
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And we've got six children and now a grandchild.
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And so we're highly invested in the next generation.
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However, sometimes it feels like it's just hard to connect
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With them.
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What was your primary motivation to write "the
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Passion generation"?
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Grant: yeah, a big part was, you know, the marketplace leaders
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Are trying to figure out how to reach the next generation,
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Pastors especially, but it really was parents.
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Parents were--would come up to me after i spoke all the time
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And just--it's like they'd get emotional very quickly.
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You know, if you--i believe if you pray for your kid, your
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Grandkids, youth in your life over and over and over again,
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Especially that prodigal son, if you will, god, i think, like,
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Makes your heart tender for that person.
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So, as soon as you start talking about them, it's easy to
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Become emotional.
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And i was just like, man, we've got to help this generation that
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Wants the young adults today to come back to the lord.
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And then you talked about how complicated it is.
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Life moves fast, trends change.
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I wanted to talk about what i think the main thing that
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Matters to reaching the next generation, because we often try
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To learn, like, these tips and tricks on how to reach
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Millennials and then it was gen z.
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Kirk: text them, don't call them on the phone.
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They don't like to talk in person.
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Grant: wear skinny jeans or get a cool haircut or get
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These tattoos.
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Or, i mean, what a pastor dresses like has really changed
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Over the years, and i don't think any of that's necessarily
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Bad, but i think there's one thing above all things that will
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Help you reach the next generation, and that
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Is discipleship.
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It's ironically not a new idea.
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It's what jesus did with young adults.
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It's who the disciples were, and i just think his last words
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Should be our first priority.
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His last words were go and make disciples.
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And so, i'll say lastly, kirk, for me, i get the privilege to
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Think, to work with all these high capacity young leaders,
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Speakers, authors, musicians, actors who are strong believers
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In their 20s or 30s who are boldly living in certain
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Industries that aren't easy to live in sometimes with their
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Faith, and almost every single time someone older at a young
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Age pulled them aside and invested in them, spoke life
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Into them, and discipled them.
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And so, to me, it's what jesus did, and it worked.
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It's what he told us to do, so we should want to do it.
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And third, it's what i practically see working, is go
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And make disciples.
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So, at this point i've started saying i don't know if we have a
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Next gen problem.
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I think we have a discipleship problem, but if we could fix the
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Discipleship problem, we'll see next generation thrive.
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Kirk: well, grant, i'm super interested in our conversation
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Based on your book, "the passion generation," because we want to
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Reach the next generation.
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And i believe that god's gifted you and and given you a set of
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Talents and abilities, but it's got to be combined with
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Real-life experience for people to want to believe what you have
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To say about such an important topic.
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And in your book you talk about a guy named kevin who actually
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Impacted your life in such a way that you're going, "wow, that
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Changed me, and that is the place from which i want to start
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Pouring into other people."
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Tell us about what happened with kevin.
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Grant: yeah, so i got saved after a three-year relationship.
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I got cheated on at 16 years old.
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When you are in a three-year relationship and they cheat on
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You, i was--.
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Kirk: that's heavy for a 16 year old, 3 years, bro.
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Grant: now it's easy to look back and, like, not as big, but
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Man, i thought i was gonna marry this person.
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I thought, well, we were high school sweethearts.
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Everyone knew us.
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She was the captain of the hip hop team.
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I was on the basketball team.
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I jokingly say it was like a ghetto high school musical in
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The making, like, this story of us really close.
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And then one day i just found out it's over.
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And so, i set out to say--i was searching, and i went to church
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For the first time on my own volition, sat in the back,
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Honestly, so i could maybe meet a girl or try to numb the pain
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Or--i wasn't looking for god necessarily, but i came to
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Christ, march 8, 2006.
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And two weeks later, i got what a lot of people don't get after
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Salvation, and that is someone who said, "hey, can i pour
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Into you?"
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Kevin batista was his name.
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He asked my story, and basically, he kind of gave me a
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Challenge, kirk, 'cause he said, "i'm hearing your story.
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It doesn't sound like you have christian community, christian
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Parents that will pour into you," and my dad's not--wasn't
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A believer.
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So he's like, "what if i took you under my wing?"
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So he's like, "vertically, i'll pour into you.
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But you have to try to reach your whole school for christ.
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You have this influence on the basketball team.
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Now use that for god next two years before you graduate.
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You might be the only light they see."
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And i think that's so big because a lot of people get
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Saved when they're young.
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They don't get discipled when they're young.
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And bigger is i now have this vertical relation with god.
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I'm two weeks in, now a vertical relation with kevin saying,
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"follow me as i follow christ."
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And then a horizontal mission, go and reach others.
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And so, for me it was like i had this mission and this guide
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Helping me get closer to the lord while i did it.
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Kirk: yeah, and i believe that young people today desperately
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Want that, especially guys.
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I mean, guys want a mission.
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Give a man a mission, and he will come alive, right?
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Guys want a battle to fight.
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They want a beauty to love and an adventure to live.
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And so, you were given at a young age through the
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Discipleship model not only a vertical relationship with god,
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But with another older, wiser, mature man, and then sent out on
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A mission to impact your community at school.
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And i'm so glad that you're writing a book that embraces the
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Passion that the young generation has to go out there
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And change the world for christ.
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Grant: yeah, we're definitely not losing young people, in my
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Opinion, because we're asking them to do too much.
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It's because we've asked them to do too little.
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And when you talk about that big calling, we're losing some of
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Our best young christians because the world's like, "come
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On, let's go, come change the world," but it's without
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The gospel.
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But jesus, he wasn't like, "hey, sit here," or "we saved a seat
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For you."
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It was, "come and follow me.
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I'll make you a fisher of men, and we're gonna go change
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The world."
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Kirk: "come on, let's go."
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Grant: because sometimes i say for older generations how they
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Stress out in a christian way, instead of saying, "oh, the
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World's gonna end," they'll say, "jesus, please just come back.
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I'm done."
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But there's a generation that does not know the lord, and
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There's a generation that's called to be redemptive at
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This time.
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And so, i would say instead of this, like, what is it, the
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Thinking that, like, anything that can go wrong will go wrong.
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That's not the way christian is supposed to think.
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It should be, "surely goodness and mercy will follow me all of
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My days."
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Like, "surely as soon as the sun rises, god will come for us."
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The people who are older generation, or i like to say,
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You keep talking about being older, i'm older at this
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Point too.
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I say chronologically superior people.
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Whenever chronologically superior christians bring
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Boldness and redemption, no matter if god's coming back
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Tomorrow, let's still plant a tree today.
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Till he comes back, let's still be a part of redemption.
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Those are the ones that young people are attracted to
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Right now.
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Kirk: grant, you also say in your book that the world is
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Getting younger, but the church is getting older.
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What do you mean by that?
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Grant: just statistically, generations are holding on to
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The baton longer, and they are passing the baton to new
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Generation of leaders.
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And so, honestly, what we end up trying to do is ministry to the
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Next generation instead of doing ministry through the
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Next generation.
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But if we could partner with them, like, and maybe it's not
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Always passing the baton, maybe it's passing a torch, or the
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Language i like is what if instead of passing baton and
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Thinking, "oh, my time is over," because i think that's the fear,
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Like, saul to david.
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If saul was secure enough to be like, "i'm not quitting and i'm
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Not giving up," but i don't know if you've gotten into this.
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Kirk: let me be your mr. miyagi while i'm still in charge so
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That you can run the race when i step out.
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It's the apprenticeship program.
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Grant: like, some of the biggest franchises of all time have a
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Mr. miyagi.
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Think about frodo.
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He's nothing without gandalf.
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Think about harry potter, without hagrid or dumbledore.
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Luke skywalker with obi-wan kenobi.
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The biggest franchises almost always have some young person
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With passion and this angst to go change the world, but it
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Doesn't really happen until the older person shows up.
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Without hagrid showing up for harry potter, he just lives in
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That closet with that angry family.
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And so, it needs an obi-wan kenobi.
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It needs the older generation to jump in.
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Without us, it's like "lord of the flies."
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The older generation jumping in brings this wisdom.
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Kirk: yeah, yeah, it's "lord of the flies" or it's "lord of the
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Rings," and if we have--the discipleship makes
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The difference.
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So, i can't wait to dive deeper into this, grant.
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After the break, grant's gonna share more about the benefits of
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Discipleship, and then later in the program we'll be joined by
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Brett mccracken, sharing about the power of today's technology
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And how much it's shaping our daily lives and the way we
00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:18.323
Think, so don't go away.
00:11:18.323 --> 00:11:19.657
Brett: if what you're doing is kind of scrolling from that c.s.
00:11:19.657 --> 00:11:22.460
Lewis quote to the next thing to the next thing, and it's just
00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:24.896
This constant cycle of consumption, then it's still the
00:11:24.896 --> 00:11:28.600
Net cumulative effect is not good for you because it's making
00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.669
You more of an addict to your device.
00:11:31.669 --> 00:11:38.996
You more of an addict to your device.
00:11:38.996 --> 00:11:42.481
Kirk: we're back with next gen speaker, grant skeldon.
00:11:46.619 --> 00:11:49.488
Grant, i want to get into the nitty gritty of your book, "the
00:11:49.488 --> 00:11:53.425
Passion generation: the seemingly reckless, definitely
00:11:53.425 --> 00:11:57.129
Disruptive, but far from hopeless millennials."
00:11:57.129 --> 00:11:59.899
And now we're beyond millennials, we've gone into gen
00:11:59.899 --> 00:12:02.968
Z, we've gone to gen alpha.
00:12:02.968 --> 00:12:05.638
And i'm generally confused when it comes to all
00:12:05.638 --> 00:12:08.040
These generations.
00:12:08.040 --> 00:12:10.276
I think we're human beings, and the bible can speak to all
00:12:10.276 --> 00:12:13.045
Of it.
00:12:13.045 --> 00:12:14.413
However, we grow up with different shaping influences
00:12:14.413 --> 00:12:16.482
That really makes it hard to connect, right?
00:12:16.482 --> 00:12:19.118
Grant: yeah, billy graham said the methods always change, but
00:12:19.118 --> 00:12:21.787
The message stays the same.
00:12:21.787 --> 00:12:23.756
The one method though jesus did give us was discipleship.
00:12:23.756 --> 00:12:26.559
And what i like about discipleship as a solution as
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:28.594
Opposed to certain tips and tricks is it's, again, what
00:12:28.594 --> 00:12:31.530
Jesus did, but it's timeless, it's classic, it always works.
00:12:31.530 --> 00:12:35.301
Kirk: okay, so what are the four arenas of discipleship you
00:12:35.301 --> 00:12:40.172
Describe in the book?
00:12:40.172 --> 00:12:41.540
Grant: yeah, so before i get into that real quick is i think
00:12:41.540 --> 00:12:43.709
We have to differentiate mentorship from discipleship.
00:12:43.709 --> 00:12:47.012
And i think they're both very powerful, but they don't
00:12:47.012 --> 00:12:49.648
Function the same.
00:12:49.648 --> 00:12:51.116
To me, mentorship is adding something to your calendar,
00:12:51.116 --> 00:12:54.653
Which is hard if you're super busy.
00:12:54.653 --> 00:12:56.121
A lot of people who are married, have kids, full-time jobs, they
00:12:56.121 --> 00:12:59.325
Don't have a lot of additional time.
00:12:59.325 --> 00:13:00.960
They're not thinking today, "what am i gonna do with all my
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.362
Free time?"
00:13:03.362 --> 00:13:04.730
And so, if they have kids, sometimes i'll have parents say,
00:13:04.730 --> 00:13:07.032
"grant, i want to disciple someone, but i don't give as
00:13:07.032 --> 00:13:09.501
Much time that i'd like to give even to my own
00:13:09.501 --> 00:13:11.570
Kids intentionally.
00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:12.905
How can i get away from them to pour into some other
00:13:12.905 --> 00:13:14.573
Young person?"
00:13:14.573 --> 00:13:15.908
Kirk: and you're saying that's what kind of a mentorship is?
00:13:15.908 --> 00:13:17.376
Grant: yeah, and i think they're struggling with mentorship
00:13:17.376 --> 00:13:18.711
Because they think i gotta add something to my calendar.
00:13:18.711 --> 00:13:20.813
Kirk: meaning the time to spend with somebody.
00:13:20.813 --> 00:13:22.348
Grant: yeah, one more meeting, one more coffee, one more
00:13:22.348 --> 00:13:24.216
Early breakfast.
00:13:24.216 --> 00:13:25.718
But mentorship is adding something in your calendar.
00:13:25.718 --> 00:13:27.920
Discipleship, in my opinion, is including someone in
00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:30.589
Your calendar.
00:13:30.589 --> 00:13:31.924
So that's like, "hey, i'm living this life.
00:13:31.924 --> 00:13:34.059
Will you wanna join me?"
00:13:34.059 --> 00:13:35.427
Jesus didn't move his life around the disciples.
00:13:35.427 --> 00:13:37.263
The disciples moved their life around him.
00:13:37.263 --> 00:13:39.298
Kirk: that's really interesting.
00:13:39.298 --> 00:13:40.666
I hadn't thought of it that way.
00:13:40.666 --> 00:13:42.001
If i'm thinking through the gospel narratives, did jesus
00:13:42.001 --> 00:13:43.936
Say, "okay, wait a minute.
00:13:43.936 --> 00:13:45.471
I've got all this stuff i gotta do, but right now i'm gonna go
00:13:45.471 --> 00:13:47.706
Heal this woman.
00:13:47.706 --> 00:13:49.074
Or right now i'm gonna go feed a bunch of people at a lake to
00:13:49.074 --> 00:13:52.478
Mentor these guys and show them how to cast out a demon."
00:13:52.478 --> 00:13:54.947
No, he's saying, "no, the father sent me on a mission.
00:13:54.947 --> 00:13:57.650
This is what i'm doing today.
00:13:57.650 --> 00:13:58.984
Hey guys, come with me."
00:13:58.984 --> 00:14:00.352
Grant: yeah, yeah, i mean, they say discipleship is caught more
00:14:00.352 --> 00:14:02.488
Than it's taught.
00:14:02.488 --> 00:14:03.822
And so, you can be taught something in class.
00:14:03.822 --> 00:14:05.357
We often forget a lot of what we are taught, even movies
00:14:05.357 --> 00:14:08.327
We watch.
00:14:08.327 --> 00:14:09.662
But there's moments where we were with our dad or with our
00:14:09.662 --> 00:14:12.131
Mom or with a mentor and just watching them.
00:14:12.131 --> 00:14:15.267
It's core memory, and we remember that, and we took
00:14:15.267 --> 00:14:17.403
Mental notes, "i wanna be like that one day."
00:14:17.403 --> 00:14:19.238
Kirk: i--this is--i think this is--i think you just provided a
00:14:19.238 --> 00:14:21.807
Game changer for me, because i've gotten caught in that trap
00:14:21.807 --> 00:14:24.443
Of saying, "i really want to pour into these individuals who
00:14:24.443 --> 00:14:29.014
God's placed in my life."
00:14:29.014 --> 00:14:30.382
And i'm just like, "i don't have a minute in my calendar."
00:14:30.382 --> 00:14:32.651
But if i look at it as, "hey, bro, come with me.
00:14:32.651 --> 00:14:35.621
I'm going over here to work or i'm going over here.
00:14:35.621 --> 00:14:38.157
Would you help me?"
00:14:38.157 --> 00:14:39.491
And we just spend time together, that i have time for, because
00:14:39.491 --> 00:14:43.429
It's just coming alongside me.
00:14:43.429 --> 00:14:45.064
Grant: and that's the four arenas.
00:14:45.064 --> 00:14:46.732
So, think about these four areas of your life, is your
00:14:46.732 --> 00:14:49.301
Personal life.
00:14:49.301 --> 00:14:50.669
These are the hobbies you like to do, the things you already do
00:14:50.669 --> 00:14:52.404
For fun.
00:14:52.404 --> 00:14:53.739
Your work life, some jobs, you might be able to bring someone.
00:14:53.739 --> 00:14:56.709
I speak, you speak, even doing this interview, you could have
00:14:56.709 --> 00:15:00.679
Someone who's in the crowd who's, like, watching, taking
00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.248
Some notes, wants to ask you questions afterwards.
00:15:03.248 --> 00:15:05.384
That's what jesus did.
00:15:05.384 --> 00:15:06.719
Most of the content we have are not from sermons from jesus,
00:15:06.719 --> 00:15:10.089
It's from questions from the disciples.
00:15:10.089 --> 00:15:11.991
It's then he answered them.
00:15:11.991 --> 00:15:13.359
It's on the go he was preaching to them.
00:15:13.359 --> 00:15:16.528
And so, it's the personal life, work life, your church life, and
00:15:16.528 --> 00:15:19.865
Then your family life.
00:15:19.865 --> 00:15:21.200
I mean, not all these--do these work for every single person,
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.736
But one of those areas, especially your personal life,
00:15:23.736 --> 00:15:26.038
Like, what is it that you're already doing for fun?
00:15:26.038 --> 00:15:28.107
Kirk: but you could just invite people to join you.
00:15:28.107 --> 00:15:30.109
Grant: and usually i trick my way into people's
00:15:30.109 --> 00:15:32.378
Lives sometimes.
00:15:32.378 --> 00:15:33.746
Like, i tell young people, look, if they don't--if they feel
00:15:33.746 --> 00:15:35.914
Intimidated by discipleship or don't feel qualified to do it,
00:15:35.914 --> 00:15:38.784
Then sometimes you have to trick them into discipling you and how
00:15:38.784 --> 00:15:41.520
To do that is find out what they like to do for fun and get into
00:15:41.520 --> 00:15:44.990
That thing.
00:15:44.990 --> 00:15:46.358
So, if they like to pickleball, the person you look up to, get
00:15:46.358 --> 00:15:48.127
Into pickleball and say, "hey, are you playing any time soon?"
00:15:48.127 --> 00:15:50.396
Or "i'll buy a round of golf," or "i'll--you like sourdough
00:15:50.396 --> 00:15:53.599
Bread making?
00:15:53.599 --> 00:15:54.933
I'd love to go make it with you."
00:15:54.933 --> 00:15:56.301
It's like, what are you doing anyway and i wanna join you?
00:15:56.301 --> 00:15:57.903
Jesus, again, he was going.
00:15:57.903 --> 00:15:59.238
The disciples who joined got to be with him.
00:15:59.238 --> 00:16:00.939
But like the rich young ruler, for example, that could have
00:16:00.939 --> 00:16:03.442
Been the 13th disciple.
00:16:03.442 --> 00:16:04.810
Jesus didn't always say at the end, "come and follow me."
00:16:04.810 --> 00:16:07.479
He said, "go and sin no more" sometimes.
00:16:07.479 --> 00:16:09.214
Sometimes he said, "don't tell anyone."
00:16:09.214 --> 00:16:11.116
But for the rich young ruler, he said, "sell all you have, come
00:16:11.116 --> 00:16:13.852
And follow me."
00:16:13.852 --> 00:16:15.187
But he didn't want to come and follow him.
00:16:15.187 --> 00:16:16.555
He didn't want to be--he wasn't teachable.
00:16:16.555 --> 00:16:17.956
And so, if you're willing to be teachable and you're willing to
00:16:17.956 --> 00:16:20.325
Go, you can be around some amazing people and learn some
00:16:20.325 --> 00:16:23.395
Amazing things.
00:16:23.395 --> 00:16:24.763
Kirk: wow, that's really cool.
00:16:24.763 --> 00:16:26.665
Next question.
00:16:26.665 --> 00:16:28.000
What are some of the common excuses people have for not
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.370
Being discipled and not discipling?
00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:33.806
Grant: the number one is not even a spiritual reason.
00:16:33.806 --> 00:16:36.241
It's not sinful.
00:16:36.241 --> 00:16:37.576
It's what i've already kind of addressed a little bit is, "i
00:16:37.576 --> 00:16:39.411
Don't have time."
00:16:39.411 --> 00:16:40.746
It's like, usually the big four is, "i don't have time," "i
00:16:40.746 --> 00:16:43.849
Don't feel qualified," is the second big one.
00:16:43.849 --> 00:16:46.118
"i don't feel worthy to do it.
00:16:46.118 --> 00:16:47.486
I don't feel like my life is glorious enough."
00:16:47.486 --> 00:16:49.188
I remember having a woman say, "i'd love to do this," after one
00:16:49.188 --> 00:16:52.357
Of my messages, and she's like, "i just don't know if my life is
00:16:52.357 --> 00:16:55.861
A big deal that anyone would-- what would they learn from me?"
00:16:55.861 --> 00:16:58.664
She didn't feel worthy.
00:16:58.664 --> 00:16:59.998
The third is, "no one ever discipled me," that's a big one.
00:16:59.998 --> 00:17:03.469
Kirk: so i don't know how to do it because i never
00:17:03.469 --> 00:17:05.337
Experienced it.
00:17:05.337 --> 00:17:06.705
Grant: yeah, so the fourth one would be like, "i don't know
00:17:06.705 --> 00:17:08.307
How," because, like, they'll say, "no one ever discipled me,"
00:17:08.307 --> 00:17:09.641
So the fourth reason, "how could i ever give what i've never
00:17:09.641 --> 00:17:12.311
Received myself?"
00:17:12.311 --> 00:17:14.146
Kirk: one of the excuses is not knowing enough about the bible,
00:17:14.146 --> 00:17:17.449
But you say our problem is not how biblically illiterate we
00:17:17.449 --> 00:17:20.486
Are, but how biblically disobedient we are.
00:17:20.486 --> 00:17:23.655
Oh, what does that mean?
00:17:23.655 --> 00:17:28.193
Grant: i think people have this idea that in order to be a
00:17:28.193 --> 00:17:30.696
Disciple maker, you have to be this big speaker, author,
00:17:30.696 --> 00:17:33.999
Theologian, orator.
00:17:33.999 --> 00:17:35.334
You gotta be an expert in the scriptures.
00:17:35.334 --> 00:17:36.902
Kirk: yeah, "what makes me think i'm qualified to be
00:17:36.902 --> 00:17:40.639
Your discipler?"
00:17:40.639 --> 00:17:41.974
Grant: yeah, but i don't think this generation is dying for
00:17:41.974 --> 00:17:44.576
More content.
00:17:44.576 --> 00:17:45.944
I think we're saturated in content.
00:17:45.944 --> 00:17:47.346
We're starved of connections, especially real relationships.
00:17:47.346 --> 00:17:49.982
And so, i try to help people say, look, there's already
00:17:49.982 --> 00:17:53.519
Enough bible that we know that we're not obeying.
00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.121
That's not the problem is this biblical literacy.
00:17:56.121 --> 00:17:58.090
It's--there's verses, i-- sometimes a preacher can preach
00:17:58.090 --> 00:18:01.059
Something, and i'm like, "oh, i've heard that before."
00:18:01.059 --> 00:18:03.428
And then the spirit's like, "but do you do it?"
00:18:03.428 --> 00:18:05.797
And so, i say that to encourage people that feel unqualified
00:18:05.797 --> 00:18:09.067
Or unworthy.
00:18:09.067 --> 00:18:10.435
It's like, it's not just that you're some great leader.
00:18:10.435 --> 00:18:13.305
All you have to do is be spiritually a couple of
00:18:13.305 --> 00:18:15.174
Steps ahead.
00:18:15.174 --> 00:18:16.542
So for me, kirk, i define discipleship as frequently
00:18:16.542 --> 00:18:19.545
Following someone who is spiritually just a couple
00:18:19.545 --> 00:18:21.947
Steps ahead.
00:18:21.947 --> 00:18:23.282
And so, that takes the weight off.
00:18:23.282 --> 00:18:24.650
You feel unworthy?
00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:25.984
Are you spiritually a couple of steps ahead?
00:18:25.984 --> 00:18:27.352
My question to you, or i don't even think the holy spirit when
00:18:27.352 --> 00:18:29.421
He prompts us to make disciples isn't saying, "are you qualified
00:18:29.421 --> 00:18:32.691
To disciple someone?"
00:18:32.691 --> 00:18:34.059
I'm sure you've done, and i know i've done many things i did not
00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:36.962
Feel qualified for.
00:18:36.962 --> 00:18:38.363
That's the faithful christian journey as he thrust us in
00:18:38.363 --> 00:18:41.066
Places we don't belong and the holy spirit leads us.
00:18:41.066 --> 00:18:43.635
And i think the same applies to discipleship.
00:18:43.635 --> 00:18:45.404
So it's not, "are you qualified?"
00:18:45.404 --> 00:18:46.872
It's, "are you spiritually a couple steps ahead?"
00:18:46.872 --> 00:18:48.874
And when i ask people that feel unqualified to disciple, "hey,
00:18:48.874 --> 00:18:52.744
Do you feel qualified?"
00:18:52.744 --> 00:18:54.079
They'll say no.
00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:55.447
If i ask them, "do you know you're just a few steps ahead of
00:18:55.447 --> 00:18:57.316
The next generation?"
00:18:57.316 --> 00:18:58.650
They know that, and so even if you're a parent or you're a
00:18:58.650 --> 00:19:01.186
Father, you're a mother or you're--if you've done those
00:19:01.186 --> 00:19:04.323
Things, you're ahead of us, so you have something to offer.
00:19:04.323 --> 00:19:07.559
Last thing i'll just say on this is, even paul didn't say, "i'm
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.229
Qualified, follow me."
00:19:10.229 --> 00:19:11.830
He said, "follow me as i follow christ."
00:19:11.830 --> 00:19:14.666
And so, i think that takes the weight off of us.
00:19:14.666 --> 00:19:16.702
Kirk: i really like this perspective shift, grant.
00:19:16.702 --> 00:19:18.804
Seriously, i mean, i've been thinking about discipleship for
00:19:18.804 --> 00:19:22.407
A long time, and i think i have dropped it into that category of
00:19:22.407 --> 00:19:25.744
I need to add more time to my calendar to be able to do this
00:19:25.744 --> 00:19:29.514
Rather than inviting people to be a part of my existing
00:19:29.514 --> 00:19:32.584
Calendar, and i really like that.
00:19:32.584 --> 00:19:34.586
What are young people looking for in a church today?
00:19:34.586 --> 00:19:38.590
Grant: i don't think that this generation, going to your
00:19:38.590 --> 00:19:40.425
Question, is starved for more content.
00:19:40.425 --> 00:19:43.295
I think they're looking for connection.
00:19:43.295 --> 00:19:44.963
You know, in 1986, bill gates coined the phrase content
00:19:44.963 --> 00:19:48.867
Is king.
00:19:48.867 --> 00:19:50.202
It's been big for years.
00:19:50.202 --> 00:19:51.570
He thought with the internet, if you--whoever has the most
00:19:51.570 --> 00:19:53.905
Content will rule the internet.
00:19:53.905 --> 00:19:55.274
Whoever creates the most content on social media will rule
00:19:55.274 --> 00:19:56.975
The internet.
00:19:56.975 --> 00:19:58.343
And i think we're on the backside of that.
00:19:58.343 --> 00:19:59.711
I think this next generation is dying for connection, real
00:19:59.711 --> 00:20:02.814
Relationship, horizontally with friends where they don't just
00:20:02.814 --> 00:20:06.151
Show up and maybe have a great speaker or celebrity pastor,
00:20:06.151 --> 00:20:08.887
Which isn't bad.
00:20:08.887 --> 00:20:10.222
There's amazing, you know, moses was a celebrity in a sense.
00:20:10.222 --> 00:20:12.691
Jesus was a celebrity in a sense.
00:20:12.691 --> 00:20:14.026
There's always been faithful men and women of god who become
00:20:14.026 --> 00:20:16.395
Celebrities, so i don't think it always means bad, but it's
00:20:16.395 --> 00:20:20.165
Not enough.
00:20:20.165 --> 00:20:21.533
They also are looking for relationships with others where
00:20:21.533 --> 00:20:23.335
They can't just show up and leave and no one knows.
00:20:23.335 --> 00:20:27.172
Like, i think they wanna be a part of a church where people
00:20:27.172 --> 00:20:30.542
Would notice if they weren't there, and that means they are
00:20:30.542 --> 00:20:33.578
Known, relationship.
00:20:33.578 --> 00:20:34.946
Kirk: you see me, you hear--you know me, and i have value.
00:20:34.946 --> 00:20:37.783
Grant: you might like this real quick, because you're part of a
00:20:37.783 --> 00:20:40.786
Generation before me that got some benefits that we've lost in
00:20:40.786 --> 00:20:43.021
The churches.
00:20:43.021 --> 00:20:44.356
I'm a younger person that actually, i think we should
00:20:44.356 --> 00:20:46.058
Bring back potlucks to church.
00:20:46.058 --> 00:20:47.492
I think we should bring back sunday school to church.
00:20:47.492 --> 00:20:49.661
We've lost these things that we used to do on sunday that made
00:20:49.661 --> 00:20:52.764
It more communal, relational, or small groups in sunday school,
00:20:52.764 --> 00:20:56.435
We're asking questions and we're dialoguing, and we made it--
00:20:56.435 --> 00:20:59.404
It's easy to become a consumeristic church experience
00:20:59.404 --> 00:21:03.542
When its just show up, sit down, we've prepared something
00:21:03.542 --> 00:21:05.977
For you.
00:21:05.977 --> 00:21:07.346
You pour into this, you give, you maybe get in a small group
00:21:07.346 --> 00:21:09.147
And then you leave.
00:21:09.147 --> 00:21:10.515
But when it's like, no, this is a communal experience as a
00:21:10.515 --> 00:21:13.151
Family, it's bigger.
00:21:13.151 --> 00:21:14.920
Kirk: yeah, i like that.
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:16.254
And i think that's why people like "the chosen" so much.
00:21:16.254 --> 00:21:17.723
It's not just jesus, the miracle worker, the superstar who
00:21:17.723 --> 00:21:20.926
Performs the wow event.
00:21:20.926 --> 00:21:24.029
It's--"the chosen" is, no, come, come, come hang with me,
00:21:24.029 --> 00:21:27.766
Come do life with me, and these are, like, 12 guys just walking
00:21:27.766 --> 00:21:31.002
Around with jesus as he's doing what he's doing.
00:21:31.002 --> 00:21:33.071
It's the discipleship model and doing life together model that
00:21:33.071 --> 00:21:35.741
You're advocating for.
00:21:35.741 --> 00:21:37.476
And lastly, tell us why you think george bailey in "the
00:21:37.476 --> 00:21:40.278
Wonderful life" is a great example of what a true local
00:21:40.278 --> 00:21:44.683
Missionary is.
00:21:44.683 --> 00:21:47.219
Grant: i'm an older soul.
00:21:47.219 --> 00:21:48.587
Like, i would say the older generation messed me up in all
00:21:48.587 --> 00:21:50.689
The right ways.
00:21:50.689 --> 00:21:52.023
Kirk: in the right ways.
00:21:52.023 --> 00:21:53.392
Grant: yeah, i think, man, the best young people i know had
00:21:53.392 --> 00:21:56.328
Older people just, like, change the trajectory of their life.
00:21:56.328 --> 00:21:58.797
And i got into the old movie of "it's a wonderful life," which i
00:21:58.797 --> 00:22:01.833
Gotta say is not a christmas movie.
00:22:01.833 --> 00:22:03.201
We always only watch it on christmas.
00:22:03.201 --> 00:22:05.003
It just happens to end at christmas time, so people deemed
00:22:05.003 --> 00:22:07.406
It a christmas movie, but "die hard's" the whole time on a
00:22:07.406 --> 00:22:09.875
Christmas movie, and so i don't think that makes that a
00:22:09.875 --> 00:22:12.177
Christmas movie.
00:22:12.177 --> 00:22:13.512
But all that to say that's a different rabbit chase.
00:22:13.512 --> 00:22:15.781
Is george bailey is like so many young people who are discontent
00:22:15.781 --> 00:22:19.818
As a young person with where they are, what they're doing.
00:22:19.818 --> 00:22:22.020
They can't wait to go do something big with their life.
00:22:22.020 --> 00:22:24.790
And i just remember watching that feeling like george bailey.
00:22:24.790 --> 00:22:27.592
I was like, i wanna go move to a big city, do these big things,
00:22:27.592 --> 00:22:30.595
Do these great things, and talk about a passion generation.
00:22:30.595 --> 00:22:33.098
This generation, there's no lack of passion, but direction?
00:22:33.098 --> 00:22:36.568
You ask them what are you called to do or what are you gonna do
00:22:36.568 --> 00:22:38.870
With your life?
00:22:38.870 --> 00:22:40.205
That's a scary question for them.
00:22:40.205 --> 00:22:41.573
But george knew he wanted to go do something big, until he never
00:22:41.573 --> 00:22:45.277
Got to.
00:22:45.277 --> 00:22:46.611
He had to stay faithful for his family, for his city, to that
00:22:46.611 --> 00:22:49.514
City, and he actually begrudged the whole time.
00:22:49.514 --> 00:22:51.850
I think a good local missionary similar to george bailey, he got
00:22:51.850 --> 00:22:54.853
To see what happens when he didn't exist.
00:22:54.853 --> 00:22:57.889
And his family's different, his friends are different, his whole
00:22:57.889 --> 00:23:01.026
Community is different.
00:23:01.026 --> 00:23:02.360
And it begs the question, like, if we took you out of this world
00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:06.565
Today, who would be impacted by it?
00:23:06.565 --> 00:23:08.467
Would your family course be hopefully impacted?
00:23:08.467 --> 00:23:10.769
Would your church, would your city, would your job, would it
00:23:10.769 --> 00:23:13.004
Make such a ripple effect?
00:23:13.004 --> 00:23:14.506
For george it was this entire town.
00:23:14.506 --> 00:23:16.374
And the irony was he didn't even enjoy it the whole time.
00:23:16.374 --> 00:23:20.245
And i just decided at a young age, i wanna be a young person
00:23:20.245 --> 00:23:22.814
That wherever i am, i'm all in so that if you took me out, it
00:23:22.814 --> 00:23:26.184
Would make an impact.
00:23:26.184 --> 00:23:27.519
And i think if you get half of the church to live like that,
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.689
That's a local missionary.
00:23:30.689 --> 00:23:32.057
That's the same thing for a church.
00:23:32.057 --> 00:23:33.525
A good church is a church that if it closed its doors, within
00:23:33.525 --> 00:23:37.162
Weeks the community would notice.
00:23:37.162 --> 00:23:38.897
Like, what's going on?
00:23:38.897 --> 00:23:40.265
Like, this isn't going on.
00:23:40.265 --> 00:23:41.600
It shouldn't just be an event happening on sunday where the
00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:43.835
Christians are impacted by it.
00:23:43.835 --> 00:23:45.203
Should be the community notices within weeks because that's the
00:23:45.203 --> 00:23:48.240
Kind of impact it made in the world.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:49.941
Kirk: thank you so much for coming on "takeaways."
00:23:49.941 --> 00:23:51.743
Thanks for talking with me, bro.
00:23:51.743 --> 00:23:53.111
Grant: yeah, thankful for you.
00:23:53.111 --> 00:23:54.446
Kirk: appreciate you.
00:23:54.446 --> 00:23:55.814
Up next, brett mccracken is gonna share with us some
00:23:55.814 --> 00:23:58.149
Practical wisdom on navigating through this multimedia,
00:23:58.149 --> 00:24:01.786
Fast-paced digital world.
00:24:01.786 --> 00:24:03.588
We'll be right back.
00:24:03.588 --> 00:24:10.990
We'll be right back.
00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:14.366
Kirk: brett mccracken is an author and senior editor at the
00:24:18.537 --> 00:24:21.673
Gospel coalition.
00:24:21.673 --> 00:24:23.041
He's the co-editor of a new book called, "scrolling ourselves to
00:24:23.041 --> 00:24:27.045
Death: reclaiming life in a digital age," and he's the
00:24:27.045 --> 00:24:30.782
Author of several other books, including "the wisdom pyramid:
00:24:30.782 --> 00:24:34.286
Feeding your soul in a post-truth world."
00:24:34.286 --> 00:24:37.088
Brett, thanks so much for coming on "takeaways."
00:24:37.088 --> 00:24:39.090
Brett: thanks for having me, kirk.
00:24:39.090 --> 00:24:40.425
Kirk: i'm fascinated by this, because my son and i were just
00:24:40.425 --> 00:24:45.130
Talking about the documentary, "the social dilemma," and how
00:24:45.130 --> 00:24:51.036
Our brains are being impacted by music and scrolling images and
00:24:51.036 --> 00:24:56.074
So much information all the time that together, we turned the
00:24:56.074 --> 00:25:00.278
Color filter on our phone to black and white, and then i sort
00:25:00.278 --> 00:25:04.249
Of turned my smartphone into a dumb phone with this
00:25:04.249 --> 00:25:07.452
Accessibility feature that limits all of its features.
00:25:07.452 --> 00:25:10.522
And i found myself much less interested in my phone because
00:25:10.522 --> 00:25:12.958
It's just not so cool anymore.
00:25:12.958 --> 00:25:14.793
And it's actually been improving my mental state.
00:25:14.793 --> 00:25:19.764
Does that sound surprising to you?
00:25:19.764 --> 00:25:21.199
Brett: no, it's not surprising that you should feel an
00:25:21.199 --> 00:25:23.702
Improvement in your mental state, because there's more and
00:25:23.702 --> 00:25:26.471
More evidence out there that our mental states are not doing well
00:25:26.471 --> 00:25:30.609
In the smartphone age because they're so addictive and young
00:25:30.609 --> 00:25:33.979
People are becoming scrolling addicts and they don't know what
00:25:33.979 --> 00:25:37.515
To do if their phone isn't within, you know, reach at every
00:25:37.515 --> 00:25:40.452
Given moment of the day.
00:25:40.452 --> 00:25:42.020
And so, it's kind of, like, addictive on the level of slot
00:25:42.020 --> 00:25:45.824
Machines and casinos.
00:25:45.824 --> 00:25:47.158
It works in the same way on our brains with, like, dopamine and
00:25:47.158 --> 00:25:50.462
Those chemicals.
00:25:50.462 --> 00:25:51.796
And there's more and more, like, consensus actually, in--even in
00:25:51.796 --> 00:25:55.200
Secular culture.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.035
Books are being written, states, cities, you know, countries are
00:25:57.035 --> 00:26:00.405
Passing laws restricting these social media apps and
00:26:00.405 --> 00:26:03.942
Smartphones because of this, because the science is clear
00:26:03.942 --> 00:26:07.145
That this is an addictive, not a substance, but an addictive
00:26:07.145 --> 00:26:10.649
Device, and it's being tweaked, right, by the engineers for
00:26:10.649 --> 00:26:14.653
Profit to make it as addictive as possible.
00:26:14.653 --> 00:26:16.988
Kirk: that's right.
00:26:16.988 --> 00:26:18.523
C.s.
00:26:18.523 --> 00:26:19.858
Lewis said something to the effect of good things can become
00:26:19.858 --> 00:26:26.264
Gods, and then they become demons, and they will eventually
00:26:26.264 --> 00:26:31.936
Destroy themselves and you.
00:26:31.936 --> 00:26:34.339
And i can see that with technology.
00:26:34.339 --> 00:26:36.074
A good thing when it becomes a god, the source of all of my
00:26:36.074 --> 00:26:41.012
Knowledge and information, it helps me understand things
00:26:41.012 --> 00:26:44.315
Through chatgpt and ai, and it becomes my companion, it becomes
00:26:44.315 --> 00:26:50.021
My navigator and my everything.
00:26:50.021 --> 00:26:53.425
It eventually begins to control me, and i will do anything to
00:26:53.425 --> 00:26:57.028
Hang on to it and bow down to it.
00:26:57.028 --> 00:26:59.097
And that's where people are getting destroyed.
00:26:59.097 --> 00:27:01.566
You say in your book that the death march of our scrolling
00:27:01.566 --> 00:27:06.738
Society is not just a metaphor.
00:27:06.738 --> 00:27:09.207
In many ways, the smartphone is literally killing us.
00:27:09.207 --> 00:27:12.844
What do you mean by that?
00:27:12.844 --> 00:27:14.312
Brett: yeah, i mean, there's a couple levels of, like, the
00:27:14.312 --> 00:27:16.314
Death that we're talking about when we talk about scrolling
00:27:16.314 --> 00:27:18.683
Ourselves to death.
00:27:18.683 --> 00:27:20.051
I mean, there are physical deaths that happen from, like,
00:27:20.051 --> 00:27:22.020
Distracted driving.
00:27:22.020 --> 00:27:23.354
People are, like, scrolling instagram while they're driving.
00:27:23.354 --> 00:27:25.023
And that's, like, a growing cause of roadway fatalities.
00:27:25.023 --> 00:27:29.327
So, there's kind of you can scroll yourself to
00:27:29.327 --> 00:27:31.696
Physical death.
00:27:31.696 --> 00:27:33.031
You could take a selfie at the grand canyon and scroll yourself
00:27:33.031 --> 00:27:34.632
To death that way.
00:27:34.632 --> 00:27:35.967
But i think more common is the mental health kind of death that
00:27:35.967 --> 00:27:39.537
We're experiencing in our culture where anxiety,
00:27:39.537 --> 00:27:42.507
Depression, loneliness, all of these things are on the rise,
00:27:42.507 --> 00:27:46.077
And this is well documented, kind of, it's correlating with
00:27:46.077 --> 00:27:49.848
The introduction of the smartphone, you know, about 15
00:27:49.848 --> 00:27:52.383
Years ago.
00:27:52.383 --> 00:27:53.752
But what we're really concerned about is the spiritual
00:27:53.752 --> 00:27:56.354
Death component.
00:27:56.354 --> 00:27:57.689
That's why we put this book together, to look at how is the
00:27:57.689 --> 00:28:01.059
Smartphone creating spiritual death and spiritual sickness
00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:04.929
For christians?
00:28:04.929 --> 00:28:06.264
Kirk: and how is it?
00:28:06.264 --> 00:28:07.632
How is it creating spiritual death?
00:28:07.632 --> 00:28:08.967
Brett: well, i think spiritual health, so much of it depends on
00:28:08.967 --> 00:28:11.402
Attention, giving our attention to god, having time to be with
00:28:11.402 --> 00:28:15.373
Him, right?
00:28:15.373 --> 00:28:16.708
Any relationship will live or die based on how much time you
00:28:16.708 --> 00:28:19.544
Have or you don't have with your spouse or with your kids.
00:28:19.544 --> 00:28:22.680
The same is true with god, right?
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:24.315
If we don't have time to be with god, we will shrivel on
00:28:24.315 --> 00:28:27.218
The vine.
00:28:27.218 --> 00:28:28.586
We won't have spiritual life.
00:28:28.586 --> 00:28:29.921
And what is the phone doing?
00:28:29.921 --> 00:28:31.289
It's taking that time away.
00:28:31.289 --> 00:28:32.624
We're choosing to scroll on our devices rather than have
00:28:32.624 --> 00:28:34.692
Quiet time.
00:28:34.692 --> 00:28:36.060
Kirk: what if i'm scrolling on my device through a c.s.
00:28:36.060 --> 00:28:37.862
Lewis quote, through a bible verse, through a devotional?
00:28:37.862 --> 00:28:42.033
Is that the same thing as spending time in the bible?
00:28:42.033 --> 00:28:44.636
Brett: i think sometimes there can be good things.
00:28:44.636 --> 00:28:46.738
Sometimes there can be nourishing things that you come
00:28:46.738 --> 00:28:49.340
Across on your phone.
00:28:49.340 --> 00:28:50.708
But i think if what you're doing is kind of scrolling from
00:28:50.708 --> 00:28:54.112
That c.s.
00:28:54.112 --> 00:28:55.446
Lewis quote to the next thing to the next thing and it's just
00:28:55.446 --> 00:28:57.182
This constant cycle of consumption, then it's still the
00:28:57.182 --> 00:29:00.718
Net cumulative effect is not good for you because it's making
00:29:00.718 --> 00:29:03.788
You more of an addict to your device, and you're not spending
00:29:03.788 --> 00:29:07.025
Time in quiet time with the lord, praying to him,
00:29:07.025 --> 00:29:10.695
Worshiping, just being still and knowing that he is god.
00:29:10.695 --> 00:29:13.698
Kirk: you're--i think you're absolutely right.
00:29:13.698 --> 00:29:15.733
You're hitting the bullseye, that that real relationship with
00:29:15.733 --> 00:29:19.270
Real persons, including the persons of the trinity, cannot
00:29:19.270 --> 00:29:23.775
Be replaced by a digital representation or somebody else
00:29:23.775 --> 00:29:26.811
Giving us devotional thoughts about that person.
00:29:26.811 --> 00:29:29.781
You also draw insights for your book, "scrolling ourselves to
00:29:29.781 --> 00:29:34.085
Death," from another book in 1985 called "amusing ourselves
00:29:34.085 --> 00:29:38.823
To death," written by neil postman.
00:29:38.823 --> 00:29:41.826
Who was postman and what was his book all about?
00:29:41.826 --> 00:29:44.395
Brett: yeah, so postman was an intellectual at new york
00:29:44.395 --> 00:29:47.832
University, jewish, not a christian, but he was a critic
00:29:47.832 --> 00:29:50.902
Of media and technology and was writing very intelligently, very
00:29:50.902 --> 00:29:56.608
Prophetically, i think, 40 years ago about the way technology at
00:29:56.608 --> 00:30:00.511
The time--in the '80s it was mostly television--he was
00:30:00.511 --> 00:30:03.982
Talking about how they just change things.
00:30:03.982 --> 00:30:06.351
Every technology changes things in culture.
00:30:06.351 --> 00:30:09.587
Sometimes it can be good changes, a lot of times it's bad
00:30:09.587 --> 00:30:12.056
Changes, but every technology changes things, and that book,
00:30:12.056 --> 00:30:15.360
"amusing ourselves to death," was kind of his critique of how
00:30:15.360 --> 00:30:19.030
Technology was changing the way we think.
00:30:19.030 --> 00:30:21.933
Changing the way we talk, and in his case it was mostly negative.
00:30:21.933 --> 00:30:25.503
So, we're--we just took inspiration from that book on
00:30:25.503 --> 00:30:29.240
The 40th anniversary of it, 2025, it's 40 years after
00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:32.944
"amusing ourselves to death" came out, and we thought what if
00:30:32.944 --> 00:30:35.980
We took postman's kind of prophetic, critical way of
00:30:35.980 --> 00:30:40.551
Looking at the technologies of his day and did it for the
00:30:40.551 --> 00:30:42.854
Digital age, but with a specific focus on christianity and church
00:30:42.854 --> 00:30:47.025
And how all of these technologies are changing the
00:30:47.025 --> 00:30:50.094
Way we think about god and faith and worship and discipleship?
00:30:50.094 --> 00:30:53.698
Kirk: that's fascinating.
00:30:53.698 --> 00:30:55.033
So, what are some of the insights that you took from
00:30:55.033 --> 00:30:57.068
Postman's book 40 years ago and brought forward to today for the
00:30:57.068 --> 00:31:00.638
Family of faith?
00:31:00.638 --> 00:31:01.973
Brett: yeah, a big thing that postman talks about in his book
00:31:01.973 --> 00:31:04.475
Is just the way that television at the time was changing the way
00:31:04.475 --> 00:31:09.047
People thought about the importance of information.
00:31:09.047 --> 00:31:12.050
He was saying on tv you get, like, a news broadcast will
00:31:12.050 --> 00:31:15.553
Have, like, a story of great significance, like some sort of,
00:31:15.553 --> 00:31:19.324
Like, important political headline next to, like, a little
00:31:19.324 --> 00:31:22.527
Vignette about a cute missing puppy, right?
00:31:22.527 --> 00:31:25.330
And then a weather report and sports report, and that's just
00:31:25.330 --> 00:31:27.732
Tv, it's just and this and this and this.
00:31:27.732 --> 00:31:31.536
And postman was saying the effect of that on our brains and
00:31:31.536 --> 00:31:35.006
Our souls is kind of putting everything on a level
00:31:35.006 --> 00:31:37.709
Playing field.
00:31:37.709 --> 00:31:39.043
We're losing a sense of what is truly important, what's trivial.
00:31:39.043 --> 00:31:42.914
Everything becomes trivial.
00:31:42.914 --> 00:31:44.248
Kirk: losing that hierarchy of significance, that hey, we're
00:31:44.248 --> 00:31:46.250
Talking about a world war, or we're talking about a pandemic,
00:31:46.250 --> 00:31:49.787
Or about the education of our children and the future of our
00:31:49.787 --> 00:31:52.190
Nation right next to, you know, there's a pervert who has
00:31:52.190 --> 00:31:56.961
Parties for children, and--.
00:31:56.961 --> 00:31:59.564
Brett: it's all flattened, and if that was true 40 years ago,
00:31:59.564 --> 00:32:03.634
How much more true is it today in the era of the feed, right?
00:32:03.634 --> 00:32:06.871
We all encounter the world through these feeds, and one
00:32:06.871 --> 00:32:11.075
Thing that's true of all social media feeds is it's just one
00:32:11.075 --> 00:32:13.845
Thing after another that are totally disconnected.
00:32:13.845 --> 00:32:16.414
You know, it's like a cat video next to a headline about
00:32:16.414 --> 00:32:20.585
Genocide next to a silly dance video on tiktok next to a
00:32:20.585 --> 00:32:26.591
Bible verse.
00:32:26.591 --> 00:32:27.925
You know, it's just this crazy amalgam of anything and
00:32:27.925 --> 00:32:31.462
Everything, and there's science that's showing that our brains,
00:32:31.462 --> 00:32:34.699
Literally our brains are struggling to catch up with that
00:32:34.699 --> 00:32:38.369
Overstimulation, so we're losing kind of brain cognitive capacity
00:32:38.369 --> 00:32:43.107
Because of that.
00:32:43.107 --> 00:32:44.442
But i think our souls are also kind of becoming numb a little
00:32:44.442 --> 00:32:46.811
Bit because when you encounter, like, important things next to
00:32:46.811 --> 00:32:50.581
Trivial things next to important things, over time you just kind
00:32:50.581 --> 00:32:54.052
Of lose perspective.
00:32:54.052 --> 00:32:55.386
Kirk: it all just sort of blurs together.
00:32:55.386 --> 00:32:56.821
It's like you put it all in a blender, you mix it together,
00:32:56.821 --> 00:32:59.624
All of a sudden it's just all sort of like--.
00:32:59.624 --> 00:33:01.459
Brett: and that's your tiktok feed or your x feed.
00:33:01.459 --> 00:33:03.494
Kirk: right, right, and it is interesting, from a marketing
00:33:03.494 --> 00:33:06.898
Perspective or a producing perspective, if your goal is
00:33:06.898 --> 00:33:10.001
Simply to get people to never stop looking at your phone, well
00:33:10.001 --> 00:33:14.372
Then, give them the variety ping pong and back and forth to all
00:33:14.372 --> 00:33:17.341
These different interesting things.
00:33:17.341 --> 00:33:19.343
Brett: and that's why it is what it is.
00:33:19.343 --> 00:33:21.312
That we have to understand, and that's why "the social dilemma"
00:33:21.312 --> 00:33:24.348
Documentary is helpful because it kind of peels back the
00:33:24.348 --> 00:33:26.551
Curtain and reminds us these are businesses and, they have a
00:33:26.551 --> 00:33:30.388
Vested interest in keeping our attention.
00:33:30.388 --> 00:33:32.957
Kirk: so, addiction is the goal.
00:33:32.957 --> 00:33:34.292
Brett: and so, addiction is the goal, and to do that novelty is
00:33:34.292 --> 00:33:37.095
A key part of that, variety, but also increasingly algorithmic
00:33:37.095 --> 00:33:42.600
Tailoring of content specifically to you as
00:33:42.600 --> 00:33:45.770
The consumer.
00:33:45.770 --> 00:33:47.138
And ai, that's what i'm scared about with ai, is if they're
00:33:47.138 --> 00:33:50.374
Already sophisticated at knowing exactly what you, kirk, are
00:33:50.374 --> 00:33:54.145
Gonna want, are gonna be inclined to click on when you
00:33:54.145 --> 00:33:56.514
Open your phone, how much more is that gonna be the case with
00:33:56.514 --> 00:33:59.784
Ai that learns us in a very sophisticated way?
00:33:59.784 --> 00:34:02.787
So, it's gonna only become harder to resist the clicking on
00:34:02.787 --> 00:34:06.991
What is presented to us on our phones.
00:34:06.991 --> 00:34:09.193
Kirk: yeah, so what are some of the things that christians can
00:34:09.193 --> 00:34:12.797
Do on a practical level to guard themselves and to be able to
00:34:12.797 --> 00:34:18.002
Push back and actively do something to get healthier in
00:34:18.002 --> 00:34:21.372
This area?
00:34:21.372 --> 00:34:22.707
Brett: yeah, i think there's real practical things that
00:34:22.707 --> 00:34:24.342
I recommend.
00:34:24.342 --> 00:34:25.743
Trying to carve out a little bit of time every day to not have
00:34:25.743 --> 00:34:29.347
Your phone with you.
00:34:29.347 --> 00:34:30.681
So, maybe start with, like, 30 minutes, pick 30 minutes.
00:34:30.681 --> 00:34:33.851
I do it at the beginning of my day where my phone is just in
00:34:33.851 --> 00:34:36.254
Another room, and it guarantees that i have unmediated space in
00:34:36.254 --> 00:34:40.424
My day to do devotionals, to pray, to just kind of start my
00:34:40.424 --> 00:34:44.495
Day not on the agenda of the algorithm.
00:34:44.495 --> 00:34:47.498
So, that's one thing i would say.
00:34:47.498 --> 00:34:48.933
I think for churches, i just--i think it's important that
00:34:48.933 --> 00:34:52.136
Pastors and church leaders start talking about media habits and
00:34:52.136 --> 00:34:56.507
Scrolling habits as a discipleship issue.
00:34:56.507 --> 00:34:59.477
This is a spiritual formation crisis in our culture, and i
00:34:59.477 --> 00:35:03.814
Think pastors kind of view it as like, oh, it's just a thing that
00:35:03.814 --> 00:35:07.285
The kids are doing, or it's just like a neutral
00:35:07.285 --> 00:35:09.854
Thing, technology.
00:35:09.854 --> 00:35:11.189
But i think there's great spiritual consequences, and i
00:35:11.189 --> 00:35:14.325
Think more churches need to lean into this and, like, actually
00:35:14.325 --> 00:35:17.461
Talk to people in their churches about, like, what are your
00:35:17.461 --> 00:35:19.764
Scrolling habits?
00:35:19.764 --> 00:35:21.132
Like, do you have a 30 minute break in your day where you
00:35:21.132 --> 00:35:22.967
Don't look at your phone?
00:35:22.967 --> 00:35:24.335
Questions like that.
00:35:24.335 --> 00:35:25.670
Kirk: yeah.
00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:27.305
Speak to the idea that the church is an embodied church.
00:35:27.305 --> 00:35:33.477
It's real people in the real presence in real places.
00:35:33.477 --> 00:35:39.650
Brett: yeah, yeah, i mean, that wouldn't have been an
00:35:39.650 --> 00:35:42.286
Uncontroversial statement 20 years ago, but it's become kind
00:35:42.286 --> 00:35:45.690
Of a thing we have to remind ourselves that the church is a
00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:48.559
Physical gathering of people god created as embodied beings to
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:53.130
Be together.
00:35:53.130 --> 00:35:54.465
The pandemic didn't help, right?
00:35:54.465 --> 00:35:55.833
Because we all had to go virtual for a time, but i think now that
00:35:55.833 --> 00:35:59.437
We don't have to meet virtually, we need to remind people that
00:35:59.437 --> 00:36:02.974
The gathering in physical being is god's design for the church.
00:36:02.974 --> 00:36:07.745
I think this is gonna be one of the most counter-cultural
00:36:07.745 --> 00:36:11.749
Aspects of the church going forward in the digital age as
00:36:11.749 --> 00:36:15.152
More and more life is lived virtually.
00:36:15.152 --> 00:36:18.256
People just kind of have their relationships virtually, they do
00:36:18.256 --> 00:36:21.359
Their jobs on zoom.
00:36:21.359 --> 00:36:22.760
They do every--they do their shopping.
00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.563
Less and less of life will be lived in an embodied way, but i
00:36:25.563 --> 00:36:29.934
Think that's bad because that is subhuman.
00:36:29.934 --> 00:36:33.004
That's not the way we were created.
00:36:33.004 --> 00:36:34.772
And so, if the church can be an advocate, can celebrate embodied
00:36:34.772 --> 00:36:39.343
Community, that's gonna be a great, life-giving thing.
00:36:39.343 --> 00:36:41.779
So that's what we're talking about in the subtitle of the
00:36:41.779 --> 00:36:43.914
Book, "reclaiming life in the digital age."
00:36:43.914 --> 00:36:46.183
A key way we can do that is by reclaiming embodied life as
00:36:46.183 --> 00:36:50.154
The church.
00:36:50.154 --> 00:36:51.522
Kirk: this is so great.
00:36:51.522 --> 00:36:52.857
I want to drill down deeper on all of these concepts.
00:36:52.857 --> 00:36:54.992
When we come back, we'll talk more with brett on how to
00:36:54.992 --> 00:36:57.628
Consume a more balanced, healthy intake of knowledge in this age
00:36:57.628 --> 00:37:01.866
Of information overload, so stay with us.
00:37:01.866 --> 00:37:10.992
Of information overload, so stay with us.
00:37:10.992 --> 00:37:14.111
Kirk: we're back with brett mccracken, sharing how to
00:37:18.249 --> 00:37:20.785
Navigate the chaos of the too much, too fast information age.
00:37:20.785 --> 00:37:25.423
Brett, i am fascinated by this conversation and what you've
00:37:25.423 --> 00:37:29.260
Written down in this book.
00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:31.062
You say in this book, "the wisdom pyramid," which you wrote
00:37:31.062 --> 00:37:34.465
Previous to "scrolling ourselves to death," our world has more
00:37:34.465 --> 00:37:38.703
And more information, but less and less wisdom.
00:37:38.703 --> 00:37:41.739
What do you mean by that?
00:37:41.739 --> 00:37:43.140
Brett: yeah, that's the first sentence of the book, and it
00:37:43.140 --> 00:37:45.109
Kind of sets up the problem that the book is trying to address,
00:37:45.109 --> 00:37:48.245
Which is we live in this information age, we've never had
00:37:48.245 --> 00:37:52.316
More access to information and knowledge than any human
00:37:52.316 --> 00:37:56.387
Generation has in history.
00:37:56.387 --> 00:37:57.988
We have anything, you know, any question we have, any
00:37:57.988 --> 00:38:02.460
Information we would want is at our fingertips with the help of
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:04.628
Google and now ai.
00:38:04.628 --> 00:38:06.464
But that doesn't necessarily translate to wisdom.
00:38:06.464 --> 00:38:08.866
Information and knowledge are different than wisdom.
00:38:08.866 --> 00:38:12.703
Wisdom is not just data you accumulate in your brain.
00:38:12.703 --> 00:38:16.173
It's not just a simple answer to a question you google.
00:38:16.173 --> 00:38:19.377
Wisdom is this accumulation of not only knowing things, but
00:38:19.377 --> 00:38:23.647
Knowing kind of how to apply them in life in a way that is
00:38:23.647 --> 00:38:26.851
Congruent with god's design.
00:38:26.851 --> 00:38:28.919
Ultimately, i think wisdom is very tethered to worship and
00:38:28.919 --> 00:38:31.989
Kind of a connection to god, the source of all wisdom.
00:38:31.989 --> 00:38:35.059
And so, this book is really trying to help people cultivate
00:38:35.059 --> 00:38:38.129
Wisdom in an age of information overload so that we don't start
00:38:38.129 --> 00:38:41.332
To think, "if i just know enough with the help of google, i'm
00:38:41.332 --> 00:38:44.602
Gonna be wise."
00:38:44.602 --> 00:38:45.936
That's not--that's gonna--it's gonna make you less wise, i
00:38:45.936 --> 00:38:48.005
Think, to be an information junkie.
00:38:48.005 --> 00:38:50.341
Kirk: that's so true.
00:38:50.341 --> 00:38:51.675
I have a friend who has conversations with chatgpt and
00:38:51.675 --> 00:38:54.512
Ai and then asks chatgpt for the moral standard behind the advice
00:38:54.512 --> 00:39:00.818
It gives.
00:39:00.818 --> 00:39:02.153
And it's very interesting, if you push ai far enough into a
00:39:02.153 --> 00:39:05.423
Corner, it will finally admit to you that it is programmed by a
00:39:05.423 --> 00:39:08.959
Certain worldview and value set, and then it'll start looping in
00:39:08.959 --> 00:39:13.230
A circle because it has nowhere else to go.
00:39:13.230 --> 00:39:15.733
And you realize that information is not wisdom.
00:39:15.733 --> 00:39:20.037
I agree with you.
00:39:20.037 --> 00:39:21.372
I love the cover of the book, "the wisdom pyramid," because it
00:39:21.372 --> 00:39:24.408
Really does spell out the thesis with this pyramid, and it's
00:39:24.408 --> 00:39:29.580
Modeled after the classic food pyramid given to us by the usda,
00:39:29.580 --> 00:39:33.951
Which i want to get into here in just a minute.
00:39:33.951 --> 00:39:37.021
But in this book, you also identify three sources of our
00:39:37.021 --> 00:39:39.590
Sickness that lead to a lack of wisdom.
00:39:39.590 --> 00:39:41.926
What are they and why did you pick them?
00:39:41.926 --> 00:39:44.795
Brett: yeah, yeah, so before i get into the prescription of how
00:39:44.795 --> 00:39:47.398
To be healthy in the digital age, i go through three sources
00:39:47.398 --> 00:39:50.167
Of sickness, and they are too much information.
00:39:50.167 --> 00:39:52.603
It's kind of like information gluttony.
00:39:52.603 --> 00:39:55.272
Too fast, so the speed of information, just like if you
00:39:55.272 --> 00:39:58.609
Eat food too fast, it's not gonna go well for you.
00:39:58.609 --> 00:40:01.879
If we consume information too fast without vetting it, without
00:40:01.879 --> 00:40:05.082
Thinking carefully about it, that's not gonna go well.
00:40:05.082 --> 00:40:08.018
And then the third one is too focused on me.
00:40:08.018 --> 00:40:10.721
So, information is algorithmically tailored to us
00:40:10.721 --> 00:40:14.458
As individuals, whether we know it or not.
00:40:14.458 --> 00:40:16.794
Every one of us is not viewing the world in the same way.
00:40:16.794 --> 00:40:19.563
When we open up our phones, even like the news feed.
00:40:19.563 --> 00:40:22.366
Kirk: that's right, what comes on my phone's gonna be different
00:40:22.366 --> 00:40:24.134
What shows up on your phone.
00:40:24.134 --> 00:40:25.503
Brett: we're in a different era than kind of the three channels
00:40:25.503 --> 00:40:27.471
That everyone watched to get news.
00:40:27.471 --> 00:40:29.406
Now, everyone has their own algorithmically tailored
00:40:29.406 --> 00:40:32.810
Channel, and so it means that information takes on this
00:40:32.810 --> 00:40:36.647
Subjective orientation, and we know as christians, we know
00:40:36.647 --> 00:40:39.783
That's not good, right?
00:40:39.783 --> 00:40:41.151
The heart is deceitful above all things.
00:40:41.151 --> 00:40:43.120
We tend to be self deceptors, and so if information starts to
00:40:43.120 --> 00:40:47.625
Just feed me and what i want to believe, that's not going to be
00:40:47.625 --> 00:40:50.794
Good for our wisdom.
00:40:50.794 --> 00:40:52.162
Kirk: that never turns out well.
00:40:52.162 --> 00:40:54.231
Those are like kids who grow up without parental wisdom, and
00:40:54.231 --> 00:40:59.169
They start to believe that the world actually does revolve
00:40:59.169 --> 00:41:02.406
Around them and that it should revolve around them.
00:41:02.406 --> 00:41:04.608
And when other people don't fit into that paradigm, they get
00:41:04.608 --> 00:41:07.211
Angry with them.
00:41:07.211 --> 00:41:08.546
Brett: yeah, there's a term that another author has used called
00:41:08.546 --> 00:41:11.081
Main character syndrome as a byproduct of the social
00:41:11.081 --> 00:41:14.318
Media age.
00:41:14.318 --> 00:41:15.653
All of us feel like we're the main character in our--in the
00:41:15.653 --> 00:41:17.388
World, because social media makes us feel that way.
00:41:17.388 --> 00:41:19.356
Kirk: i'm living out a movie where i am the star and this is
00:41:19.356 --> 00:41:22.826
All about me.
00:41:22.826 --> 00:41:24.194
Brett: it's called the iphone for a reason, right?
00:41:24.194 --> 00:41:25.529
That was the most brilliant branding move apple made,
00:41:25.529 --> 00:41:28.365
Because that's what the smartphone is.
00:41:28.365 --> 00:41:30.334
It's a world unto you.
00:41:30.334 --> 00:41:33.003
It's the iphone.
00:41:33.003 --> 00:41:34.338
No one else has the same interface as you do, the same
00:41:34.338 --> 00:41:37.308
Apps and the same feeds, and i think that's, you know, fun as a
00:41:37.308 --> 00:41:41.378
Consumer because we get to kind of have this hyper kind of just
00:41:41.378 --> 00:41:45.049
As i like it experience, but it's terrible for wisdom because
00:41:45.049 --> 00:41:49.119
We're, you know, subjectivity is not the answer to truth.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:52.856
Kirk: yeah, i'm noticing that this wisdom pyramid is clearly
00:41:52.856 --> 00:41:57.995
Modeled after the old food pyramid.
00:41:57.995 --> 00:41:59.930
What are the similarities?
00:41:59.930 --> 00:42:01.265
Brett: yeah, so it's very much taken from that idea.
00:42:01.265 --> 00:42:04.234
So, the food pyramid was guidance for a healthy diet.
00:42:04.234 --> 00:42:07.071
Going from the bottom up is the most important things for
00:42:07.071 --> 00:42:09.573
Your diet.
00:42:09.573 --> 00:42:10.908
And then as you get to the top of the food pyramid, it's things
00:42:10.908 --> 00:42:12.876
You can have, but they need to be, like, more sparingly used in
00:42:12.876 --> 00:42:15.713
Your diet.
00:42:15.713 --> 00:42:17.081
So i thought, you know, it's so true, just as our physical
00:42:17.081 --> 00:42:20.851
Health depends on our intakes, what comes into our body, for
00:42:20.851 --> 00:42:25.189
Good or ill, forms us physically, the same is true
00:42:25.189 --> 00:42:28.258
Mentally and spiritually with the information in the media
00:42:28.258 --> 00:42:31.929
Intakes in our lives.
00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:33.297
And so, we have to pay attention to the ordering of that diet and
00:42:33.297 --> 00:42:36.634
The proportions of what is feeding our soul, and in an age
00:42:36.634 --> 00:42:40.604
Of information overload where so many things are coming at us all
00:42:40.604 --> 00:42:43.474
The time, we have to be that much more intentional and
00:42:43.474 --> 00:42:46.844
Careful with ordering our diet.
00:42:46.844 --> 00:42:48.679
So, i thought it would be timely to kind of take the food pyramid
00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:52.116
And produce a wisdom pyramid.
00:42:52.116 --> 00:42:54.551
Same idea, so going from the bottom up, it's my suggestion
00:42:54.551 --> 00:42:58.055
For what is gonna be most nourishing for your soul in an
00:42:58.055 --> 00:43:01.692
Age where wisdom is hard to find.
00:43:01.692 --> 00:43:03.761
Kirk: and that bottom level is the word of god.
00:43:03.761 --> 00:43:05.929
There's a picture of the bible there if you can--can't
00:43:05.929 --> 00:43:07.731
See this.
00:43:07.731 --> 00:43:09.066
And then the next level up here, there's a church with community.
00:43:09.066 --> 00:43:12.302
This is the fellowship of the family of faith.
00:43:12.302 --> 00:43:15.439
Brett: god's people, right?
00:43:15.439 --> 00:43:16.807
Like, throughout time, for 2,000 years, the christian church has
00:43:16.807 --> 00:43:19.677
Been this deep reservoir of wisdom.
00:43:19.677 --> 00:43:22.279
And we need to avail ourselves of that wisdom.
00:43:22.279 --> 00:43:24.114
Kirk: we're relational beings, we need to be with real people,
00:43:24.114 --> 00:43:27.084
Embodied people.
00:43:27.084 --> 00:43:28.419
And then here, i love this, this is nature.
00:43:28.419 --> 00:43:30.521
You've got trees and rivers and animals and birds and outdoor
00:43:30.521 --> 00:43:35.459
Activity, which is so refreshing for the soul.
00:43:35.459 --> 00:43:38.529
And then above that you've got great books of literature.
00:43:38.529 --> 00:43:41.498
What what would be examples of these kinds of books?
00:43:41.498 --> 00:43:44.001
Brett: yeah, so what i'm getting at in that category, it's not
00:43:44.001 --> 00:43:46.704
Just the books and the content in them that makes us wise, but
00:43:46.704 --> 00:43:50.407
It's actually reading books, because--and there's science
00:43:50.407 --> 00:43:53.744
That is showing that, like, we're losing the ability to read
00:43:53.744 --> 00:43:56.246
Books in the digital age because our brains are used to kind of a
00:43:56.246 --> 00:43:59.349
Mile wide, inch deep information.
00:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.319
But we need to be able to focus over a long period of time and
00:44:02.319 --> 00:44:06.156
Drill down and think critically, and reading books helps train
00:44:06.156 --> 00:44:10.060
Those muscles.
00:44:10.060 --> 00:44:11.395
Kirk: i love that, i love it.
00:44:11.395 --> 00:44:12.796
And then you've got music there above that.
00:44:12.796 --> 00:44:15.199
Brett: and that's not just music, the guitar stands for
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:17.634
Beauty and the arts, yeah.
00:44:17.634 --> 00:44:20.471
Yeah, and i think that's important for our wisdom,
00:44:20.471 --> 00:44:22.406
Because it speaks to the fact that wisdom is not
00:44:22.406 --> 00:44:25.075
Just cerebral.
00:44:25.075 --> 00:44:26.410
It actually engages our heart.
00:44:26.410 --> 00:44:28.312
Wisdom is about what you love, kind of, not just what you know.
00:44:28.312 --> 00:44:32.983
And where your heart's loves are directed is where you will
00:44:32.983 --> 00:44:37.387
Spend time.
00:44:37.387 --> 00:44:38.756
And so, the arts and beauty i find in my christian life really
00:44:38.756 --> 00:44:43.494
Stir my affections to worship god.
00:44:43.494 --> 00:44:45.996
And i think that's a good thing for our wisdom.
00:44:45.996 --> 00:44:49.066
Kirk: absolutely, i love that trinity of values that we often
00:44:49.066 --> 00:44:53.470
Hear maybe from catholics, from presbyterians, and others of
00:44:53.470 --> 00:44:59.977
Truth, beauty, and goodness.
00:44:59.977 --> 00:45:02.412
Truth, the word of god that never changes.
00:45:02.412 --> 00:45:06.617
Beauty, we're talking about the arts and we're talking
00:45:06.617 --> 00:45:08.952
About nature.
00:45:08.952 --> 00:45:10.287
And wisdom, and we get that from nature, we can see the
00:45:10.287 --> 00:45:15.993
Creativity and the power of god.
00:45:15.993 --> 00:45:17.461
We get it from the word of god, particularly that the wisdom
00:45:17.461 --> 00:45:19.463
Literature within the word of god, and then the arts.
00:45:19.463 --> 00:45:22.733
And then at the very top, there's a surprise, the little
00:45:22.733 --> 00:45:25.536
Dessert box of a smartphone.
00:45:25.536 --> 00:45:28.639
Why did you even include social media in the wisdom pyramid?
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:32.476
Brett: yeah, well, it's there, but it's in the fats, oils, and
00:45:32.476 --> 00:45:35.045
Sweets category, so.
00:45:35.045 --> 00:45:36.380
Kirk: i would argue fats are actually good for you, but the
00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:39.516
Sweets and that.
00:45:39.516 --> 00:45:40.851
Brett: yeah, too much sugar.
00:45:40.851 --> 00:45:42.419
So yeah, i think it's--i put it on there because i think it's
00:45:42.419 --> 00:45:45.422
Unrealistic to just ask people to just throw away your phones
00:45:45.422 --> 00:45:48.859
And live a completely analog life.
00:45:48.859 --> 00:45:50.794
Kirk: unless you're gonna go full amish, phones are gonna be
00:45:50.794 --> 00:45:53.063
Part of the equation.
00:45:53.063 --> 00:45:54.398
Brett: they're gonna be part of our lives, for better or worse.
00:45:54.398 --> 00:45:55.999
You can't put the genie back in the bottle, but i think there's
00:45:55.999 --> 00:45:58.302
Ways that we can do it in a more healthy, intentional, wise way.
00:45:58.302 --> 00:46:02.439
So, i think that with the phone, like, the critical thing is just
00:46:02.439 --> 00:46:05.876
The proportion of your diet it occupies.
00:46:05.876 --> 00:46:07.845
If it's the foundation of your pyramid, that's not gonna go
00:46:07.845 --> 00:46:11.014
Well for you.
00:46:11.014 --> 00:46:12.349
You're gonna get sick.
00:46:12.349 --> 00:46:13.717
But if it's kind of near the top and it's like, i'm not addicted,
00:46:13.717 --> 00:46:16.854
I can go without it for long periods of time, but i do scroll
00:46:16.854 --> 00:46:20.390
From time to time and i--and what i find when i scroll, i'm
00:46:20.390 --> 00:46:24.428
Intentional about seeking out nourishing things, right?
00:46:24.428 --> 00:46:27.264
Because there are some good things on your phone.
00:46:27.264 --> 00:46:29.800
Kirk: my wife has somehow trained the algorithm on her
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:33.003
Phone to send her amazing things, and i'm always asking,
00:46:33.003 --> 00:46:35.505
"honey, how do you keep getting all these great things on
00:46:35.505 --> 00:46:38.141
Your phone?"
00:46:38.141 --> 00:46:39.509
And there are these clips and these shorts on youtube from
00:46:39.509 --> 00:46:42.012
Pastors who've just got these mic drop, fire moments that we
00:46:42.012 --> 00:46:45.148
Can send to our kids on identity, on relationship, and
00:46:45.148 --> 00:46:48.752
Really, it's because those are the things she clicks on and she
00:46:48.752 --> 00:46:50.921
Doesn't click on the stupid, you know, backyard street fight
00:46:50.921 --> 00:46:54.992
Videos, you know, with the push up contest things.
00:46:54.992 --> 00:46:58.562
Brett: that's probably just an indicator of her, like, you
00:46:58.562 --> 00:47:00.831
Know, spiritual wisdom, because i think phones can be a mirror
00:47:00.831 --> 00:47:03.700
Of our desires, and sometimes it's a dark mirror, it's a black
00:47:03.700 --> 00:47:07.304
Mirror, because you look at what the algorithm feeds you and
00:47:07.304 --> 00:47:10.040
You're like--.
00:47:10.040 --> 00:47:11.375
Kirk: that's really interesting.
00:47:11.375 --> 00:47:12.743
I don't need to hire a private investigator to find out what my
00:47:12.743 --> 00:47:14.478
Kids are actually consuming.
00:47:14.478 --> 00:47:15.812
Just go on the phone and see the scroll, because it's mirroring
00:47:15.812 --> 00:47:19.283
What their appetites.
00:47:19.283 --> 00:47:21.685
Brett: i think god can actually use that to be like a gut check
00:47:21.685 --> 00:47:24.454
Conviction for us, because i've had moments where i'm, like,
00:47:24.454 --> 00:47:27.524
Scrolling facebook and it's like--.
00:47:27.524 --> 00:47:28.926
Kirk: why am i getting this?
00:47:28.926 --> 00:47:30.294
Brett: i'm like, why am i getting that?
00:47:30.294 --> 00:47:31.628
I must have clicked on it enough times that the algorithm knows
00:47:31.628 --> 00:47:34.231
That i will click on it.
00:47:34.231 --> 00:47:35.933
So, there are ways that i think god can maybe work in the
00:47:35.933 --> 00:47:38.635
Algorithm to wake us up to our own spiritual depravity.
00:47:38.635 --> 00:47:43.340
Kirk: and finally, brett, you say here that the bible is our
00:47:43.340 --> 00:47:47.945
Most important source of wisdom.
00:47:47.945 --> 00:47:50.948
But many of us wake up in the morning, check our texts, we
00:47:50.948 --> 00:47:54.518
Google a question that we've been thinking about all night,
00:47:54.518 --> 00:47:57.688
Or we start with what's up on facebook.
00:47:57.688 --> 00:48:00.891
How do we begin a new day?
00:48:00.891 --> 00:48:05.162
Brett: that's one practical tip that i think everyone should
00:48:05.162 --> 00:48:07.898
Try, which is start your day without your phone dictating
00:48:07.898 --> 00:48:12.336
Your agenda.
00:48:12.336 --> 00:48:13.704
So, start your day with your phone in another room and carve
00:48:13.704 --> 00:48:16.873
Out a little bit of time to open a physical bible.
00:48:16.873 --> 00:48:19.242
I'm a big fan of physical bibles rather than reading your bible
00:48:19.242 --> 00:48:21.945
On your phone.
00:48:21.945 --> 00:48:23.313
Kirk: a leather bible smells so great, and the pages.
00:48:23.313 --> 00:48:25.182
Brett: well, and you're just not distracted, you're not tempted
00:48:25.182 --> 00:48:27.150
To, like, read, you know, from a gospel and then suddenly you're
00:48:27.150 --> 00:48:30.520
On tiktok, you know, two seconds later.
00:48:30.520 --> 00:48:32.990
So, find time to just be in the physical word of god and just
00:48:32.990 --> 00:48:36.526
Let it speak to you.
00:48:36.526 --> 00:48:37.861
You know, it's hard.
00:48:37.861 --> 00:48:39.229
I admit the bible is a hard thing to read for 21st
00:48:39.229 --> 00:48:41.898
Century people.
00:48:41.898 --> 00:48:43.266
It's far from us culturally, linguistically, in every sense.
00:48:43.266 --> 00:48:47.704
So, i think we have to be real about that.
00:48:47.704 --> 00:48:50.440
And with our kids, you know, we have to be real about the fact
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.943
That if we're gonna train their muscle of, like, loving
00:48:52.943 --> 00:48:55.679
Scripture, it's gonna be hard training.
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:58.281
But it's worth it, because nothing will serve them better
00:48:58.281 --> 00:49:00.817
In life than to get them loving god's word and wanting to spend
00:49:00.817 --> 00:49:04.688
Time with it rather than spending time scrolling on
00:49:04.688 --> 00:49:07.057
Their phone.
00:49:07.057 --> 00:49:08.392
Kirk: this is so important, and i appreciate you coming and
00:49:08.392 --> 00:49:09.993
Talking with us today.
00:49:09.993 --> 00:49:11.328
I hope everybody reads your book.
00:49:11.328 --> 00:49:12.929
Brett: thanks so much, kirk.
00:49:12.929 --> 00:49:14.331
Kirk: after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:49:14.331 --> 00:49:22.993
Kirk: after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:49:22.993 --> 00:49:26.376
Kirk: i really enjoyed today's conversations with grant skeldon
00:49:30.580 --> 00:49:33.683
And brett mccracken about next gen ministry, discipleship,
00:49:33.683 --> 00:49:37.821
Wisdom, and the proper place for technology in our lives.
00:49:37.821 --> 00:49:41.491
Let's review some of our takeaways.
00:49:41.491 --> 00:49:44.161
Reach the next generation through discipleship.
00:49:44.161 --> 00:49:47.297
What a great reminder from grant.
00:49:47.297 --> 00:49:49.699
Younger generations aren't expecting us to dress like them
00:49:49.699 --> 00:49:53.336
Or talk like them, so how do we relate to them?
00:49:53.336 --> 00:49:57.240
Through discipleship.
00:49:57.240 --> 00:49:58.909
If we're really wanting to impact the generations of our
00:49:58.909 --> 00:50:01.611
Kids and our grandkids, we need to step up and be willing to
00:50:01.611 --> 00:50:05.782
Pour into, encourage, and challenge them.
00:50:05.782 --> 00:50:09.352
Reaching the next generation isn't an impossible mission, but
00:50:09.352 --> 00:50:12.789
It is a necessary mission for the family of faith.
00:50:12.789 --> 00:50:16.760
Like grant said, let's make jesus's last words, go and make
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:20.831
Disciples, our first priority.
00:50:20.831 --> 00:50:25.202
Discipleship is an invitation.
00:50:25.202 --> 00:50:28.038
Come with me.
00:50:28.038 --> 00:50:29.372
I love the practicality of this insight from grant that not only
00:50:29.372 --> 00:50:33.110
Makes discipleship doable in the middle of our busy schedules,
00:50:33.110 --> 00:50:36.913
But it really is an accurate description of how
00:50:36.913 --> 00:50:39.716
Jesus discipled.
00:50:39.716 --> 00:50:41.952
Grant said that discipleship isn't adding something new to
00:50:41.952 --> 00:50:44.988
Your calendar, but including someone in your calendar.
00:50:44.988 --> 00:50:50.093
So, who is god calling you to disciple?
00:50:50.093 --> 00:50:53.296
Think, who can you invite to join you at your work or the
00:50:53.296 --> 00:50:58.502
Next church function or your workout, hobby activity, running
00:50:58.502 --> 00:51:02.305
Errands with the family?
00:51:02.305 --> 00:51:03.940
It's these everyday moments that you can include someone in that
00:51:03.940 --> 00:51:08.445
Provide the environment for questions and
00:51:08.445 --> 00:51:11.248
Natural conversations.
00:51:11.248 --> 00:51:12.983
These are ministry moments that can help shape the next
00:51:12.983 --> 00:51:15.952
Generation into god-honoring men and women.
00:51:15.952 --> 00:51:20.891
Create space in your day.
00:51:20.891 --> 00:51:23.760
Brett mccracken reminded us that our media habits are an
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:27.531
Extension of our personal discipleship.
00:51:27.531 --> 00:51:31.001
We all know that technology is addicting, but the real question
00:51:31.001 --> 00:51:34.738
Is what are we doing about it to combat it?
00:51:34.738 --> 00:51:38.408
Brett recommended carving out at least 30 minutes in our day to
00:51:38.408 --> 00:51:42.512
Be intentionally away from our phones and other devices.
00:51:42.512 --> 00:51:47.083
At first you might find yourself instinctively reaching for that
00:51:47.083 --> 00:51:50.220
Device that's no longer there, but that's a good and simple act
00:51:50.220 --> 00:51:54.724
Of self-discipline, and we can put that into place
00:51:54.724 --> 00:51:58.128
Tomorrow morning.
00:51:58.128 --> 00:52:00.463
What's nourishing your soul?
00:52:00.463 --> 00:52:03.266
I really liked the pyramid example that brett mccracken
00:52:03.266 --> 00:52:06.570
Gave us to help us reflect on how we're nourishing our minds
00:52:06.570 --> 00:52:11.641
And then determine whether or not it's healthy.
00:52:11.641 --> 00:52:15.078
From the foundational level of time in god's word with god's
00:52:15.078 --> 00:52:19.082
People in god's creation to the beauty of taking time to read
00:52:19.082 --> 00:52:24.621
Physical books and enjoy music and the arts to the occasional
00:52:24.621 --> 00:52:29.192
And responsible use of exciting technology, there's room for all
00:52:29.192 --> 00:52:33.396
Of it.
00:52:33.396 --> 00:52:34.731
It's about prioritizing our time and focusing our hearts on what
00:52:34.731 --> 00:52:38.868
Will help us flourish.
00:52:38.868 --> 00:52:41.271
So, think tonight, is there anything that needs to move up
00:52:41.271 --> 00:52:44.608
Or down in the priority pyramid of your life?
00:52:44.608 --> 00:52:50.280
That's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:52.415
Thanks for watching, and if you've enjoyed this show, don't
00:52:52.415 --> 00:52:55.685
Forget, set your dvr so you never miss an episode.
00:52:55.685 --> 00:52:59.222
And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:59.222 --> 00:53:02.225
Searching for "takeaways" on tbn+ or visit the kirk cameron
00:53:02.225 --> 00:53:06.529
On tbn youtube channel.
00:53:06.529 --> 00:53:08.732
We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
00:53:08.732 --> 00:53:12.535
♪♪♪
00:53:12.535 --> 00:53:17.274
♪♪♪
00:53:18.608 --> 00:53:18.608

Grant Skeldon & Brett McCracken: Controlling our Digital Addictions & Connecting Generations | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

September 8, 2025 | 55:2

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