Greg Koukl: Explaining the Christian Worldview | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

November 10, 2025 | 55:2

Kirk Cameron is joined by apologist Greg Koukl clarifying and defending what Christianity is – an accurate description of reality from the beginning of time through its end.

#Apologetics #Culture #Faith #Christianity #Truth #Bible #Belief #Morals #Purpose

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Greg Koukl: Explaining the Christian Worldview | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | November 10, 2025

Kirk: a lot of stories start with once upon a time, and
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Usually end with and they lived happily ever after.
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One very popular movie saga back in the '70s started its story
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With an opening line that said a long, long time ago in a galaxy
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Far away.
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But this story that we're gonna talk about today starts with in
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The beginning, god created.
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And it's a story that can change your life.
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We're gonna talk more about this with our guest greg koukl on the
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Greatest story ever told.
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Greg koukl: when i asked the question early on, what
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Is christianity?
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Well, you might say it's a religion or a way of living your
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Life, et cetera, et cetera.
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I said but at the core of it, christianity is a picture
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Of reality.
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Kirk: so don't miss it right now on "takeaways."
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[music]
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Kirk: i'm so excited to have back with us my friend and
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Bestselling author and speaker greg koukl.
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He's hosted his own radio talk show for over 30 years, and he's
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An adjunct professor in christian apologetics at
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Biola university.
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He's written many, many books over the years, including the
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One we're gonna discuss today.
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It's called "the story of reality: how the world began,
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How it ends, and everything important that happens
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In between."
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Greg, thanks so much for coming back.
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Greg: kirk, yes, it's a pleasure.
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Kirk: you're really one of my favorite guests and friends,
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Because you're just-- first of all, you're the real deal.
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You're not one of these fake, phony christians, and i just
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Love the way we can dive into difficult and important subjects
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With such calm and clarity.
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It helps me better know what i believe and why i believe it.
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Greg: that's great, i'm glad to hear kirk: that.
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Well, you've got this book, "the story of reality," and i thought
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To myself, what what's the big idea writing a book like this?
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But that was actually it.
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It's the big idea of what we believe that makes all the
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Little devotional verses make sense.
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Greg: yeah, you know, i think of it like a puzzle, and you-- if
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You have a puzzle, you want to put a puzzle together, you gotta
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Have all the right pieces, right?
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And the way the puzzle looks for many christians, as the puzzle
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Is dumped on the floor, and if it's dumped on the floor, and
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You never put the pieces together, first of all you don't
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Know if you have all the right pieces for the big picture.
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You may have pieces from other people's puzzle in there, too,
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You know?
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And you may not realize that.
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I've actually talked to people who said they're christian but
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They believe in reincarnation, and they don't realize that that
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Puzzle piece is part of a different puzzle.
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Kirk: that's not a christian puzzle.
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Greg: it's kind of like trying to put a carburetor on
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A computer.
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You know, it doesn't work for us, and so by putting together
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The story of reality, i was trying to give the big picture
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From the beginning to the end, how the world began, how it
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Ends, and everything important that happens in between so that
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People would get that big picture and never get lost to
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The pieces again.
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Kirk: that's so important.
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I've tried to put puzzles together without looking at the
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Box cover, and it feels impossible.
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But once i see the picture, i say, oh, okay, i get it.
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All the red is gonna go around the outside, and the straight
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Edges are over here, and i know what i'm trying to put together.
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And when it comes to christian worldview, how does the creation
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Of the world, the new creation in christ, how does the
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Resurrection and the virgin birth and sin and the devil in
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Hell and heaven all fit together?
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And this is what your book is about.
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And greg, let me ask you this.
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You organize the book around five words, god, man, jesus, the
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Cross, and the resurrection.
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Why did you do that?
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Greg: well, initially the whole project started because i felt
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That christians did not have a solid grasp of the big picture,
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Major areas of theology that hold it together.
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It isn't just academics, kirk, it's knowledge of god and his
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Purposes and his plan, and you can't organize your life well as
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A follower of christ unless you really have a robust
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Understanding of that.
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When i say robust, you don't have to be a theologian, you
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Just have to see how it fits together.
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And so i started many, many years with this particular
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Project, trying to find what might be called the sine qua
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Nons, the absolute necessary parts of christianity, and i
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Started with god, because that's like the beginning, in the
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Beginning god, and then i moved from there, the major themes,
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God, man, jesus, cross, resurrection.
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And by going through each of those things, i could give some
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Very, very fundamental notions of what the scripture teaches
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About those areas and not just as isolated theological
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Principles, but as they were interconnected.
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If you think about that order, that's also the order of the
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Story, it's the backbone of the plot line, that's why it's
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Called the story of reality.
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There's a narrative here, there's an account of god
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Working in history in a very particular way.
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And this is what lent itself to kind of a narrative style which
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Is much more relaxed for me to write and much more easy for
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People to read.
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Those five things represent that backbone of the the plot line
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And also the major points of the story.
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Kirk: and you titled it "the story of reality."
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I think that's significant, too, because in a way you've helped
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Us to see our faith is not just a set of beliefs and
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Convictions, but the fact that we are part of a grand
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Narrative, and it's going somewhere.
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Talk about that.
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Greg: i'm so glad you brought that up, kirk, because there are
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Too many christians, and it's just absorbing these ideas from
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Our culture who, for lack of a better word, relativize their
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Own convictions.
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In other words, i believe in jesus, he's my faith, but he
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Doesn't necessarily have to be yours.
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You have your truth, i have mine.
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Most of the viewers are probably not thinking this way directly,
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But a lot of times this creeps into their view and
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Their approach.
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And so when i asked the question early on, what is christianity?
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You might say it's a religion or a way of living your life, et
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Cetera, et cetera.
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I said, but at the core of it, christianity is a picture
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Of reality.
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It's an account of the way things actually are.
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The events in the story really happened or are going to happen,
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The people really lived, and so we have an accounting of reality
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Here and not just a once upon the time kind of story of
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Mythology or something.
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Because that doesn't explain anything, you know?
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But if god is reaching down to help us to understand him and
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Ourselves and what went wrong and how it gets fixed, that's
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The story, what went wrong and how it gets fixed, then if it
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Doesn't tie to reality, then it's just a story.
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It just might make us feel good.
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And the key here is i help people to understand exactly
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What i mean when i say i mean that the story is true in the
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Way that gravity is true.
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If you didn't believe in gravity, you're not gonna float
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Away, you know?
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And then the same way, if you don't believe in god or jesus or
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Any of the details there, if they are true in that sense,
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They're still gonna be true whether you believe in them or
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Not, exactly.
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Kirk: how does christianity uniquely explain the world
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Compared to other worldviews and philosophies such as hinduism,
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Buddhism, atheism, materialism?
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Greg: yeah, when my daughter, annabeth, who you know, was
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About six or seven years old, she said, "papa, how do we know
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That god is true?"
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Is the way she put it.
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She's asking for reasons now about the convictions that we've
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Been training her with.
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And i paused for a moment thinking how i had answer that
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To my six or seven year old at the time, and finally it just
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Came to me, this phrase, the reason that we believe god is
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True is because he's the best explanation for the way
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Things are.
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Let me run that by again, because it's really important,
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And it goes to the heart of your question.
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The reason that we believe god is true is because he's the best
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Explanation for the way things are.
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So we're talking about reality.
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When we look at reality, we look at the nature of the world and
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Not just the physical world, but the things that we reflect on
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That are not physical, the issues of meaning and purpose
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And morality, rights and love, all those other things.
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We realize that the world is a certain way.
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Now the question is which take on reality best explains the way
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The world really is.
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When you take buddhism or hinduism or atheism, for
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Example, or any of the other -isms, it turns out none of them
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Capture reality and explaining it as a worldview the way
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Christianity does.
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Another way i put it is our convictions about god and christ
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And morality and meaning and all the other things resonate with
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The deepest intuitions in our heart.
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They fit the physical world, we see the origin of the universe,
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We see the design in the world, but god's fingerprints
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Are everywhere.
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But on a more existential level, on the inside, all the things
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That we struggle with that are really, really important, this
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Makes sense of those as well.
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Kirk: "the story of reality" touches on one of the biggest
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Problems that anybody has in trying to explain the way the
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World is, and that is we know something's broken, something's
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Wrong, and the question why does god let evil things happen in
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The world?
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When we see people dying, children dying, people getting
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Captured or tortured or trafficked things like this, and
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I know that you've answered this question many times, but what
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Was interesting to me is to discover that the atheist has a
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Real problem with that question too.
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He likes to say, well, you christians think this god is all
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Loving and powerful and knowing, and so then why does he let
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These bad things happen?
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Well, the question that the atheist must answer is the same,
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Is that why do you even have a problem with people getting
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Kidnapped and tortured when you don't believe that there is a
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Moral standard that says that that's even a bad thing?
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So he can't answer it at all.
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Greg: on his worldview he can't do anything with that, because
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There's no place to go.
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Kirk: how does "the story of reality" answer the question?
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Greg: okay, i'm glad you brought this up, because it's such an
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Integral part of the story.
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When you think about it, the problem of evil is not a
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Christian problem, it's not a theist problem, it's a
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Human problem.
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And every single-- and this is what you're getting at-- every
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Single philosophy or religion has to deal with one of the most
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Salient details of the world, something's wrong with
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The world.
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It doesn't matter where you live or when you live, everyone knows
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The world is broken, okay?
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Now, what's interesting about the story of reality, and i'm
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Not referring to the book here, though i'm pointing, i'm talking
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About the story of reality, which is captured in the book,
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Is that evil is part of our story.
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In fact, our whole story is about the problem of evil.
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It starts in the third chapter, it doesn't end for 66 books,
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You know?
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If there were no problem of evil, there would be no story.
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So what we're doing, what the christian account of reality
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Does is it takes reality seriously.
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It can not only explain why there's evil in the world,
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Because there's a true moral standard that's been broken, and
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We're responsible for that and that god is involved in fixing
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That by fixing us first and then fixing the rest of the world,
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And that takes us to the end of the story.
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Greg: and so the story of reality as given to us in the
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Bible in the form of the christian worldview does not
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Ignore suffering and evil, it actually accounts for it and
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Solves the problem.
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I can't wait to get into this in more detail when we come back,
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Because we're gonna talk with greg about one of the greatest
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Lines in the bible and what it means for us today,
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So stay with us.
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[music]
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[music]
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[music]
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Kirk: welcome back.
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We're talking about "the story of reality," a book written by
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Bestselling author greg koukl.
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Greg, we're talking about the problem of evil and how god's
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Story in the bible really does explain it the best of any
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Other worldview.
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It accounts for evil, it solves the problem of evil through
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Jesus christ and the resurrection.
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It's interesting you also say in the book that the second best
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Line in the whole book may be, "in the beginning, god created
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The heavens and the earth."
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I don't know about that, but what do you think is the first
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Best line?
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Greg: well, it actually comes later out of the story in john
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Chapter 1, and it's verse 14.
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It says, "the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we
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Beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the father."
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Now, just to put these together, the story starts, "in the
00:12:40.884 --> 00:12:44.321
Beginning, god created heavens and the earth."
00:12:44.321 --> 00:12:48.625
Jesus's story starts "in the beginning was the word, and the
00:12:48.625 --> 00:12:52.395
Word was with god, and the word was god.
00:12:52.395 --> 00:12:54.164
All things came into being through him, and apart from him,
00:12:54.164 --> 00:12:57.367
Nothing came into being that has come into being."
00:12:57.367 --> 00:12:59.703
So what this does is it takes jesus's story, and it lays it
00:12:59.703 --> 00:13:03.106
Over the beginning of the story.
00:13:03.106 --> 00:13:04.841
What it's saying is that the person being characterized as
00:13:04.841 --> 00:13:07.844
The word is the very same one that started the whole story,
00:13:07.844 --> 00:13:12.349
And the sublime element here is that same one who made
00:13:12.349 --> 00:13:16.219
Everything came down, he got small, emmanuel, god with us.
00:13:16.219 --> 00:13:22.626
The word became flesh, and to me, the first one is
00:13:22.626 --> 00:13:26.162
Awesome, right?
00:13:26.162 --> 00:13:27.497
Genesis 1:1.
00:13:27.497 --> 00:13:28.865
Oh, wow, pow, god makes everything, but the second one
00:13:28.865 --> 00:13:33.503
Is sublime, because it takes humility, it takes humility
00:13:33.503 --> 00:13:38.642
To step down from heaven and dwell among us.
00:13:38.642 --> 00:13:41.645
And that's exactly the way paul describes it in philippians
00:13:41.645 --> 00:13:44.948
Chapter 2, you know?
00:13:44.948 --> 00:13:46.316
The way he didn't regard equality with god a thing to be
00:13:46.316 --> 00:13:48.985
Held on to, but he let go of the privileges and came down to be
00:13:48.985 --> 00:13:53.590
With us to save us.
00:13:53.590 --> 00:13:55.191
Kirk: in your book, you're starting at the beginning, "in
00:13:55.191 --> 00:13:57.961
The beginning, god made the heavens and the earth," what
00:13:57.961 --> 00:14:01.564
Connections do you see between the scientific theories about
00:14:01.564 --> 00:14:06.636
The origins of the universe and the biblical account of how it
00:14:06.636 --> 00:14:10.941
All began?
00:14:10.941 --> 00:14:12.275
Greg: well, i think it's kind of remarkable that the scientific
00:14:12.275 --> 00:14:16.813
Community believes exactly the same thing as we believe in a
00:14:16.813 --> 00:14:21.284
Certain sense, because the story starts in the beginning,
00:14:21.284 --> 00:14:25.922
God created.
00:14:25.922 --> 00:14:27.257
In other words, there was nothing in the physical realm,
00:14:27.257 --> 00:14:29.392
The cosmos didn't exist, and then if you pardon the term
00:14:29.392 --> 00:14:33.897
Bang, there it was.
00:14:33.897 --> 00:14:36.466
Now, i joke a little bit about that because i think there are
00:14:36.466 --> 00:14:39.169
Christians understandably that are uncomfortable with the big
00:14:39.169 --> 00:14:42.105
Bang, fine, but what they don't always realize is that the
00:14:42.105 --> 00:14:46.209
Scientific characterization of the big bang matches at least in
00:14:46.209 --> 00:14:52.115
The type of event what genesis 1:1.
00:14:52.115 --> 00:14:55.552
We both believe that the physical universe had an
00:14:55.552 --> 00:14:58.989
Absolute beginning.
00:14:58.989 --> 00:15:00.323
Kirk: out of nothing.
00:15:00.323 --> 00:15:01.658
Greg: out of nothing, it has an age, in other words.
00:15:01.658 --> 00:15:04.194
How old it is is a matter of debate, but i want people to
00:15:04.194 --> 00:15:07.063
Overlook that for the moment, because the important thing is
00:15:07.063 --> 00:15:09.332
That the scientific community and the christian community
00:15:09.332 --> 00:15:12.068
Believe the same thing.
00:15:12.068 --> 00:15:13.636
And the work that's been done by stephen meyer, for example, and
00:15:13.636 --> 00:15:17.273
Others at the discovery institute to show that this
00:15:17.273 --> 00:15:21.878
Discovery of the origin of the universe over the last hundred
00:15:21.878 --> 00:15:24.547
Years, unmistakable in a scientific perspective, does
00:15:24.547 --> 00:15:28.218
Match genesis, and a lot of them wanted to avoid the scientific
00:15:28.218 --> 00:15:31.488
Conclusion, because it sounded too much like genesis,
00:15:31.488 --> 00:15:34.157
Even einstein.
00:15:34.157 --> 00:15:35.859
And they had to give in because the evidence was so powerful.
00:15:35.859 --> 00:15:39.796
That's the connection that i want to make here, and i
00:15:39.796 --> 00:15:41.664
Actually don't make any more assessment of the science,
00:15:41.664 --> 00:15:44.534
Except for that one in "the story of reality."
00:15:44.534 --> 00:15:47.003
We both believe in a kind of a magical beginning, don't we?
00:15:47.003 --> 00:15:50.840
Kirk: yeah.
00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:52.208
Greg: in the beginning, god, or in the beginning, nothing and
00:15:52.208 --> 00:15:53.877
Makes the particles, and that's not natural, right?
00:15:53.877 --> 00:15:57.647
Kirk: right, i think it's even more magical when the atheists
00:15:57.647 --> 00:16:02.052
Believe that the universe popped out of nothing as a result of
00:16:02.052 --> 00:16:06.256
Nobody doing it.
00:16:06.256 --> 00:16:07.690
At least we believe that there is a god behind all of this who
00:16:07.690 --> 00:16:11.194
Is eternal and created time-space.
00:16:11.194 --> 00:16:13.163
Greg: let me correct your language here,
00:16:13.163 --> 00:16:14.798
If you don't mind.
00:16:14.798 --> 00:16:16.466
I wouldn't say we believe, i would say god did it, and i know
00:16:16.466 --> 00:16:20.270
You, that's your conviction.
00:16:20.270 --> 00:16:22.272
I wanna avoid words that sound like they're just relativizing,
00:16:22.272 --> 00:16:26.142
Our belief is this, and your belief is that.
00:16:26.142 --> 00:16:28.845
We have a conviction about something because all of the
00:16:28.845 --> 00:16:32.015
Science supports it.
00:16:32.015 --> 00:16:33.983
All the evidence supports the origin, plus common thinking.
00:16:33.983 --> 00:16:37.921
If you-- i mean the idea that the universe popped into
00:16:37.921 --> 00:16:40.990
Existence out of nothing for no reason with no cause, by the
00:16:40.990 --> 00:16:44.694
Way, those are connected.
00:16:44.694 --> 00:16:46.029
If there's no reason, there's no purpose or value, well, that's
00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:49.032
Worse than magic, because magic you got a, you know, a magician
00:16:49.032 --> 00:16:52.702
Pulling a rabbit out of a hat.
00:16:52.702 --> 00:16:54.070
Kirk: that's right.
00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:55.405
Greg: now you got no magician, and you got no hat, you just got
00:16:55.405 --> 00:16:58.074
The rabbit kind of thing.
00:16:58.074 --> 00:16:59.742
And so what i'm leaning towards here as an apologist, as a
00:16:59.742 --> 00:17:03.780
Thoughtful christian is our point of view, our answer to the
00:17:03.780 --> 00:17:07.050
Origins makes common sense.
00:17:07.050 --> 00:17:10.887
It's the smart money is on ours, not on theirs.
00:17:10.887 --> 00:17:13.823
I don't even have to call it a proof.
00:17:13.823 --> 00:17:15.492
I'm just saying what makes more sense, something from something
00:17:15.492 --> 00:17:18.528
Or something from nothing?
00:17:18.528 --> 00:17:20.463
Kirk: greg, in light of "the story of reality," the biblical
00:17:20.463 --> 00:17:23.266
Worldview, what is the problem with those who believe that the
00:17:23.266 --> 00:17:27.270
Universe is strictly material, that matter is all there is?
00:17:27.270 --> 00:17:33.176
Why is that not a tenable position?
00:17:33.176 --> 00:17:36.012
Greg: because we all know better.
00:17:36.012 --> 00:17:37.647
Every single one of us knows better.
00:17:37.647 --> 00:17:39.516
Now, let's just say they have a belief that matter is all there
00:17:39.516 --> 00:17:42.886
Is, okay?
00:17:42.886 --> 00:17:44.254
The belief is something.
00:17:44.254 --> 00:17:45.588
I'm focusing in and not the content, but the belief
00:17:45.588 --> 00:17:47.924
They're having.
00:17:47.924 --> 00:17:49.259
That belief is something, okay?
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:51.060
I'll tell you what the belief is not.
00:17:51.060 --> 00:17:52.428
It's not chemical reactions in your brain, because the belief
00:17:52.428 --> 00:17:55.265
Has content, propositional content, chemical reactions
00:17:55.265 --> 00:17:58.535
Don't have content, they don't have propositional content.
00:17:58.535 --> 00:18:01.371
So my question is, if you have a belief that there is nothing but
00:18:01.371 --> 00:18:05.375
The material world, what is the nature of the belief itself?
00:18:05.375 --> 00:18:08.778
Kirk: yeah, you can't hold it in a cup.
00:18:08.778 --> 00:18:10.146
It's not something you can weigh on a scale.
00:18:10.146 --> 00:18:11.648
Greg: it doesn't extend in space, right?
00:18:11.648 --> 00:18:13.016
Kirk: it's just an idea.
00:18:13.016 --> 00:18:15.051
Greg: it's a real thing that's not material, and it doesn't
00:18:15.051 --> 00:18:19.622
Respond to the laws of physics and chemistry, that kind of
00:18:19.622 --> 00:18:22.058
Thing, but i just use that as a simple illustration.
00:18:22.058 --> 00:18:25.161
Our lives are absolutely filled, completely filled with realities
00:18:25.161 --> 00:18:32.202
That are not physical, and all we need to do is reflect on it
00:18:32.202 --> 00:18:35.738
Just a little bit for us to see that.
00:18:35.738 --> 00:18:37.807
I do a little thing with audiences sometimes.
00:18:37.807 --> 00:18:40.610
I say imagine your mother working at the computer, okay?
00:18:40.610 --> 00:18:43.613
Get the picture, close your eyes.
00:18:43.613 --> 00:18:45.148
Okay, what color shirt does she have on?
00:18:45.148 --> 00:18:46.983
And then they tell me afterwards, yellow, red,
00:18:46.983 --> 00:18:49.452
White, whatever.
00:18:49.452 --> 00:18:50.820
I said where was she, that woman that you saw?
00:18:50.820 --> 00:18:54.490
Well, she wasn't in your brain, 'cause if you cracked open your
00:18:54.490 --> 00:18:57.093
Brain, you wouldn't be able to see a woman in there with a red
00:18:57.093 --> 00:18:59.329
Shirt typing away.
00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:01.130
She was somewhere so real to your perception that you could
00:19:01.130 --> 00:19:06.636
See her and describe the color of her shirt, but it wasn't in a
00:19:06.636 --> 00:19:12.041
Physical place.
00:19:12.041 --> 00:19:13.376
It's a simple exercise to demonstrate that there is an
00:19:13.376 --> 00:19:16.779
Immaterial realm that we are constantly and directly
00:19:16.779 --> 00:19:21.084
Connected to, and you can describe, and that's the
00:19:21.084 --> 00:19:24.520
Immaterial realm.
00:19:24.520 --> 00:19:25.855
To me, that's such an obvious defeat of physicalism, but you
00:19:25.855 --> 00:19:29.125
Know, some people aren't taken by that, but that i think is
00:19:29.125 --> 00:19:31.327
A good point.
00:19:31.327 --> 00:19:32.662
Kirk: as well as the laws of mathematics, is that
00:19:32.662 --> 00:19:37.233
A physical thing?
00:19:37.233 --> 00:19:38.601
It's real, we all know it.
00:19:38.601 --> 00:19:39.936
I'd be a fool to say it's not.
00:19:39.936 --> 00:19:41.304
Or just the-- what is love?
00:19:41.304 --> 00:19:44.340
The love that i have for my grandchild or that i have for my
00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:46.909
Wife, can i see it, touch it, feel it?
00:19:46.909 --> 00:19:49.579
Can i smell it?
00:19:49.579 --> 00:19:50.947
Can i weigh it in a scale?
00:19:50.947 --> 00:19:52.348
No, these are immaterial things that no one would deny the
00:19:52.348 --> 00:19:56.619
Existence of.
00:19:56.619 --> 00:19:57.987
Greg: if you ask somebody what's the most important-- what are
00:19:57.987 --> 00:20:00.189
The most important things in life?
00:20:00.189 --> 00:20:01.524
Just a casual question, they're not gonna say porsche, you
00:20:01.524 --> 00:20:06.062
Know, probably.
00:20:06.062 --> 00:20:07.397
Kirk: or gold.
00:20:07.397 --> 00:20:08.765
Greg: yeah, well they're gonna say, well, relationship,
00:20:08.765 --> 00:20:10.667
Love, family.
00:20:10.667 --> 00:20:12.001
Universally they will say this, okay?
00:20:12.001 --> 00:20:14.237
Notice there's nothing that's gonna be on the list that
00:20:14.237 --> 00:20:16.939
Science has any access to at all.
00:20:16.939 --> 00:20:19.709
These are real features of the world that the five senses
00:20:19.709 --> 00:20:24.681
Doesn't have access to, so science can't tell us anything
00:20:24.681 --> 00:20:28.084
About the most important things are the things that are
00:20:28.084 --> 00:20:30.386
Not physical.
00:20:30.386 --> 00:20:31.754
Kirk: people are always upset when someone gets cancer and
00:20:31.754 --> 00:20:35.158
Dies or people are suffering.
00:20:35.158 --> 00:20:36.492
We all seem to acknowledge that the world is not the way that it
00:20:36.492 --> 00:20:41.764
Ought to be, unless of course, this is just the way bacteria
00:20:41.764 --> 00:20:45.935
Reacts at these temperatures and in these environments, but
00:20:45.935 --> 00:20:48.771
Nobody wants to live in that kind of a world.
00:20:48.771 --> 00:20:51.007
Greg: don't cut in line in front of me.
00:20:51.007 --> 00:20:52.342
You shouldn't do that.
00:20:52.342 --> 00:20:53.710
Kirk: that's right, that wasn't-- you weren't being nice.
00:20:53.710 --> 00:20:55.812
You know, you betrayed my confidence.
00:20:55.812 --> 00:20:58.448
Why is that important?
00:20:58.448 --> 00:21:00.216
Greg: it's because human beings are obviously moral beings, and
00:21:00.216 --> 00:21:05.121
What that means two things.
00:21:05.121 --> 00:21:06.823
It means we have the capability to perceive moral concepts.
00:21:06.823 --> 00:21:10.827
Francis schaeffer talked about this, called it moral motions,
00:21:10.827 --> 00:21:14.163
But also there's content to this capability.
00:21:14.163 --> 00:21:17.734
In other words, we know when something is wicked, we can
00:21:17.734 --> 00:21:21.270
See it.
00:21:21.270 --> 00:21:22.638
Now, sometimes there's a debate on what's wrong and what isn't
00:21:22.638 --> 00:21:24.407
Wrong, et cetera, i get that, but there's so obvious
00:21:24.407 --> 00:21:26.843
Clear-case examples.
00:21:26.843 --> 00:21:28.344
And so, for example, in the recent discussion about alleged
00:21:28.344 --> 00:21:32.215
Genocide by israel and gaza.
00:21:32.215 --> 00:21:34.417
Well, the presumption there is that genocide is wrong, it's
00:21:34.417 --> 00:21:38.221
Wicked, and whether it's happening or not is
00:21:38.221 --> 00:21:40.823
Another issue.
00:21:40.823 --> 00:21:42.191
The fact that people would impulsively make the--.
00:21:42.191 --> 00:21:45.027
Kirk: or the claim against racism or anything like that.
00:21:45.027 --> 00:21:47.296
Greg: or social justice, the whole range of things, where is
00:21:47.296 --> 00:21:50.666
That all coming from?
00:21:50.666 --> 00:21:52.368
I'll tell you one thing it's not coming from, it's not coming
00:21:52.368 --> 00:21:54.504
From darwinian evolution, though this is the way oftentimes
00:21:54.504 --> 00:21:57.507
People will try to describe it.
00:21:57.507 --> 00:21:59.275
Because if darwinian evolution is responsible for our feelings
00:21:59.275 --> 00:22:03.813
About justice, then all they are are our subjective feelings or
00:22:03.813 --> 00:22:09.318
Our feelings about the wrongness of rape, but biology can't make
00:22:09.318 --> 00:22:13.523
Rape wrong, it can maybe make us feel that it's wrong, that's
00:22:13.523 --> 00:22:17.160
Relativism, but it can't make it wrong in itself, and we are
00:22:17.160 --> 00:22:22.532
Responding to the world in a very particular way.
00:22:22.532 --> 00:22:25.234
We're not just expressing our feelings, we think that the
00:22:25.234 --> 00:22:29.405
Behavior that we're seeing is itself wrong, wicked, bad,
00:22:29.405 --> 00:22:34.343
And evil.
00:22:34.343 --> 00:22:35.678
That means it's objective, and that has ramifications for the
00:22:35.678 --> 00:22:38.247
Way we understand the big picture.
00:22:38.247 --> 00:22:39.849
Kirk: and christianity and christianity alone, according to
00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:42.785
You, and laid out in this book, explains all of that,
00:22:42.785 --> 00:22:46.689
Justifies it.
00:22:46.689 --> 00:22:48.057
Greg: it's the best explanation.
00:22:48.057 --> 00:22:49.392
Some other worldviews have some parts, but they're not gonna do
00:22:49.392 --> 00:22:52.261
The job like christianity does.
00:22:52.261 --> 00:22:54.263
Kirk: after the break we're gonna continue our conversation
00:22:54.263 --> 00:22:56.365
With greg and the explanation of why our world is broken, so
00:22:56.365 --> 00:22:59.969
Don't go away.
00:22:59.969 --> 00:23:02.004
Kirk: if you'll give me just a few minutes of your time, i want
00:23:04.373 --> 00:23:06.642
To show you how you can grow your family's faith and plant
00:23:06.642 --> 00:23:10.813
Seeds of truth in the hearts of the children in your life
00:23:10.813 --> 00:23:14.183
This christmas.
00:23:14.183 --> 00:23:15.551
Did you know that 75% of children raised in christian
00:23:15.551 --> 00:23:18.754
Homes will walk away from their faith by the time they leave
00:23:18.754 --> 00:23:22.291
High school?
00:23:22.291 --> 00:23:23.626
But the problem actually starts long before then.
00:23:23.626 --> 00:23:26.529
A child's moral compass is largely formed by the age of
00:23:26.529 --> 00:23:30.233
Ten, and every day young children are bombarded with
00:23:30.233 --> 00:23:34.470
Messages that say there is no absolute truth, that feelings
00:23:34.470 --> 00:23:39.108
Matter more than facts, and that biblical values are outdated or
00:23:39.108 --> 00:23:43.846
Even hateful.
00:23:43.846 --> 00:23:45.515
The question is by whom?
00:23:45.515 --> 00:23:47.917
By you, or by a world that wants to distort truth and
00:23:47.917 --> 00:23:51.921
Corrupt innocence?
00:23:51.921 --> 00:23:53.956
Don't make a mistake.
00:23:53.956 --> 00:23:55.892
This is a very real battle, and more than ever we need to
00:23:55.892 --> 00:23:59.795
Prepare children with the moral courage to stand strong in a
00:23:59.795 --> 00:24:03.633
Confusing world.
00:24:03.633 --> 00:24:05.434
That's the mission of a company called brave books.
00:24:05.434 --> 00:24:09.372
Every story that they create teaches a timeless faith-based
00:24:09.372 --> 00:24:13.809
Value like humility or identity or respecting authority, and
00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:19.148
Each one equips parents and grandparents to have meaningful
00:24:19.148 --> 00:24:23.519
Faith-filled conversations with their families.
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.789
You see, these aren't preachy books that feel like homework,
00:24:26.789 --> 00:24:29.759
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00:24:34.363 --> 00:24:38.367
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00:24:38.367 --> 00:24:41.704
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00:24:41.704 --> 00:24:45.975
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00:24:45.975 --> 00:24:49.045
And then at the back of every book you'll even find hands-on
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00:24:56.819 --> 00:25:00.523
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00:25:00.523 --> 00:25:02.158
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00:25:16.272 --> 00:25:17.640
Just imagine sitting around your kitchen table with hot cocoa
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:20.943
This christmas, pulling out the conversation cards and having
00:25:20.943 --> 00:25:24.447
Genuine faith-filled discussions or reading a story together by
00:25:24.447 --> 00:25:28.584
The fireplace and seeing your child or grandchild actually
00:25:28.584 --> 00:25:32.188
Apply these lessons in their lives.
00:25:32.188 --> 00:25:35.324
You see, this isn't just another gift that kids will forget by
00:25:35.324 --> 00:25:38.928
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Shaping children to stand strong in the truth all year long.
00:25:43.399 --> 00:25:48.137
I've personally written four brave books, and i'm just one of
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Jessica robertson: partnering with braid books was a no
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[music]
00:28:08.477 --> 00:28:12.181
Kirk: we are back with my guest today greg koukl, and we're
00:28:14.784 --> 00:28:17.620
Discussing some of the most important questions every person
00:28:17.620 --> 00:28:20.356
Must ask about life, death, evil in the world, and why
00:28:20.356 --> 00:28:25.161
We're here.
00:28:25.161 --> 00:28:26.529
Greg, in chapter 11 of your book, you talk about man being
00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:32.802
Wonderful, mankind, beautiful, amazing, intricately designed.
00:28:32.802 --> 00:28:38.641
What conclusions, what implications about human beings
00:28:38.641 --> 00:28:43.512
Specifically impress you and stand out?
00:28:43.512 --> 00:28:47.850
Greg: well, the materialist view is the cosmos is all there is
00:28:47.850 --> 00:28:50.653
And all there was and all there ever will be, carl sagan's
00:28:50.653 --> 00:28:53.722
Famous statement.
00:28:53.722 --> 00:28:55.991
In scripture, though, it says human beings are made in the
00:28:55.991 --> 00:28:58.627
Image of god.
00:28:58.627 --> 00:28:59.995
By the way, the cosmos thing would be molecules in motion,
00:28:59.995 --> 00:29:02.464
And that's all you are.
00:29:02.464 --> 00:29:03.833
You're just a package of molecules on that view, okay?
00:29:03.833 --> 00:29:07.169
We know better.
00:29:07.169 --> 00:29:08.771
We know something is special about human beings.
00:29:08.771 --> 00:29:12.074
In fact, you're in the film industry for a long time, still
00:29:12.074 --> 00:29:14.243
Are i guess in some measure, but it's interesting how often they
00:29:14.243 --> 00:29:17.546
Make a film, and the way they describe the story unfolding is
00:29:17.546 --> 00:29:21.550
That it's the triumph of the human spirit.
00:29:21.550 --> 00:29:25.020
Kirk: yeah.
00:29:25.020 --> 00:29:26.355
Greg: how many times have you heard that in a film?
00:29:26.355 --> 00:29:27.823
Why did they say that kind of stuff, you know?
00:29:27.823 --> 00:29:29.725
They don't say that about lassie, you know, the triumph of
00:29:29.725 --> 00:29:31.927
The dog spirit, you know, whatever.
00:29:31.927 --> 00:29:33.562
There seems to be something absolutely unique and special
00:29:33.562 --> 00:29:37.099
About human being that's manifest in lots of ways, and
00:29:37.099 --> 00:29:39.935
One of them is the beauty.
00:29:39.935 --> 00:29:41.270
All of the wonderful things that human beings have produced, even
00:29:41.270 --> 00:29:45.007
Great film, even fabulous film.
00:29:45.007 --> 00:29:47.910
I was watching "darkest hour" last night on the airplane, you
00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:50.279
Know, about churchill, and i'm weeping because some of the
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:55.050
Points are so powerful.
00:29:55.050 --> 00:29:56.819
Why is that happening, you know?
00:29:56.819 --> 00:29:58.454
It's because human beings are unique in themselves, and they
00:29:58.454 --> 00:30:01.924
Are more than just molecules in the universe.
00:30:01.924 --> 00:30:04.126
And so we have unique personalities, and that we have
00:30:04.126 --> 00:30:07.496
Unique gifts and capabilities.
00:30:07.496 --> 00:30:09.431
But all of these operate within a moral framework.
00:30:09.431 --> 00:30:12.334
Some people might say, well, my dog's different than his dog,
00:30:12.334 --> 00:30:14.436
Blah, blah, blah.
00:30:14.436 --> 00:30:15.838
There are differences in everything, but there's a moral
00:30:15.838 --> 00:30:18.540
Quality to this, and this is why we blame people for certain
00:30:18.540 --> 00:30:21.844
Behaviors, and we praise them for other behaviors, because
00:30:21.844 --> 00:30:25.180
They are blameworthy or praiseworthy.
00:30:25.180 --> 00:30:28.317
So you have this element about human beings that they're in a
00:30:28.317 --> 00:30:31.820
Different category than everything else.
00:30:31.820 --> 00:30:35.457
So i say man is beautiful, but then there's another side, he's
00:30:35.457 --> 00:30:39.228
Beautiful, but he's broken.
00:30:39.228 --> 00:30:40.863
And by the way, the brokenness is also something doesn't fit
00:30:40.863 --> 00:30:43.632
Into a naturalistic worldview, you know?
00:30:43.632 --> 00:30:47.102
And i think it was richard dawkins who says, on his view,
00:30:47.102 --> 00:30:49.638
It's nothing but-- there's no evil, there's no good, there's
00:30:49.638 --> 00:30:53.442
Nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
00:30:53.442 --> 00:30:56.045
Well, that's what you get on that view, but that isn't what
00:30:56.045 --> 00:30:59.248
Reality is actually like.
00:30:59.248 --> 00:31:01.083
We know there's something more and that human beings play a
00:31:01.083 --> 00:31:04.520
Critically important part of it.
00:31:04.520 --> 00:31:06.789
The arts are examples of that, evidences.
00:31:06.789 --> 00:31:10.592
Not just the arts and all of their forms, though, but also
00:31:10.592 --> 00:31:14.530
Acts of charity and goodness and kindness and nobility and all of
00:31:14.530 --> 00:31:18.834
This, yet at the same time there's this break, there's
00:31:18.834 --> 00:31:23.472
This brokenness.
00:31:23.472 --> 00:31:24.974
This wonderful stuff about human beings is marred, it's corrupted
00:31:24.974 --> 00:31:30.612
In some sense.
00:31:30.612 --> 00:31:31.981
And again, you don't need a bible to know this.
00:31:31.981 --> 00:31:34.249
You can see it all around you, and this is why people complain
00:31:34.249 --> 00:31:37.086
About the problem of evil, and they're not usually talking
00:31:37.086 --> 00:31:39.421
About tsunamis, they're talking about other things that other
00:31:39.421 --> 00:31:42.758
People did either in grand scale, we can read in the
00:31:42.758 --> 00:31:46.228
Newspapers, or in personal.
00:31:46.228 --> 00:31:49.565
Kirk: that's exactly right.
00:31:49.565 --> 00:31:50.899
So every time i see somebody just, you know, they're just
00:31:50.899 --> 00:31:55.037
Hair on fire, screaming and yelling about politics, and yet
00:31:55.037 --> 00:31:58.640
They're an atheist, i say you're contradicting your own
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:02.911
Worldview here.
00:32:02.911 --> 00:32:04.279
You've got these moral problems with this politician or this
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.249
Thing, and i say and yet you don't believe in any sort of
00:32:07.249 --> 00:32:10.552
Objective moral standard that really means anything other than
00:32:10.552 --> 00:32:13.756
Perhaps to you.
00:32:13.756 --> 00:32:15.090
And so they're giving evidence of the god who is simply by
00:32:15.090 --> 00:32:21.497
Going on and on about all the political moral things they
00:32:21.497 --> 00:32:24.133
Don't like.
00:32:24.133 --> 00:32:25.467
Greg: exactly, no, they might be-- there's two
00:32:25.467 --> 00:32:28.170
Categories here.
00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:29.505
They might be just emoting.
00:32:29.505 --> 00:32:31.040
If they were consistent with their view they would say, oh,
00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:33.575
This is just my emotions.
00:32:33.575 --> 00:32:34.910
This is just my moral view, it doesn't have any application
00:32:34.910 --> 00:32:38.981
To you.
00:32:38.981 --> 00:32:40.315
That would be consistent with the view, nothing but blind,
00:32:40.315 --> 00:32:42.151
Pitiless indifference, that kind of thing.
00:32:42.151 --> 00:32:44.753
So, but the fact is that is not how they're engaging it.
00:32:44.753 --> 00:32:49.291
They are engaging it as a human being made in the image of god,
00:32:49.291 --> 00:32:52.394
And they're using moral categories that are native to
00:32:52.394 --> 00:32:56.165
The way they're made in the image of god.
00:32:56.165 --> 00:32:58.367
They can't get away from it.
00:32:58.367 --> 00:32:59.968
They can get away from god, they can run from god, but they can't
00:32:59.968 --> 00:33:02.604
Run from themselves the way god made them, and that's why you're
00:33:02.604 --> 00:33:06.008
Gonna see this kind of thing.
00:33:06.008 --> 00:33:07.376
Now, in that circumstance, kirk, and we've talked about this in
00:33:07.376 --> 00:33:09.978
Other shows, i'm gonna try to use a question.
00:33:09.978 --> 00:33:12.781
So i'm gonna say after they go on this rant and rave and me
00:33:12.781 --> 00:33:16.085
Knowing that they're an atheist, i would say, wait, i'm confused,
00:33:16.085 --> 00:33:18.987
I'm confused.
00:33:18.987 --> 00:33:20.322
What do you mean?
00:33:20.322 --> 00:33:21.690
Well, you're an atheist.
00:33:21.690 --> 00:33:23.025
Yeah?
00:33:23.025 --> 00:33:24.393
Well, where are you getting all these objectable categories that
00:33:24.393 --> 00:33:26.795
You're invoking in this rant that you just offered here?
00:33:26.795 --> 00:33:31.533
You think that guys-- these guys are wrong, right?
00:33:31.533 --> 00:33:34.069
They shouldn't be doing that.
00:33:34.069 --> 00:33:35.571
Is that you're just-- is that just your personal moral view?
00:33:35.571 --> 00:33:39.074
And others may have different moral views, or are you saying
00:33:39.074 --> 00:33:42.144
That that behavior is actually wrong?
00:33:42.144 --> 00:33:44.346
Now, there's a question he's gonna tell me.
00:33:44.346 --> 00:33:45.948
Now, if it's just his personal moral view, and that's all that
00:33:45.948 --> 00:33:48.383
Fits with his atheism--.
00:33:48.383 --> 00:33:50.385
Kirk: then he should have no problem with my personal
00:33:50.385 --> 00:33:51.920
Moral view.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:53.288
Greg: yes, of course, and he should be-- you can complain all
00:33:53.288 --> 00:33:55.324
You want, but it has nothing to do with the rest of the world.
00:33:55.324 --> 00:33:57.993
Kirk: because it's not really wrong.
00:33:57.993 --> 00:33:59.361
Greg: yeah, yeah, it's not really wrong, but this is
00:33:59.361 --> 00:34:01.497
Where-- what the atheists can't say, because he knows too much,
00:34:01.497 --> 00:34:05.134
He knows too much, because he actually is made the image
00:34:05.134 --> 00:34:07.536
Of god.
00:34:07.536 --> 00:34:08.871
Kirk: greg, you also say in the book that the brokenness in the
00:34:08.871 --> 00:34:11.306
World starts with the brokenness in us, explain.
00:34:11.306 --> 00:34:14.543
Greg: yeah, well, when i mentioned earlier that it
00:34:14.543 --> 00:34:17.880
Doesn't matter where you live or when you lived, everybody knows
00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:20.949
Something's wrong with the world, you could add to that as
00:34:20.949 --> 00:34:23.418
A subscript, if everybody knows what's wrong to the world,
00:34:23.418 --> 00:34:26.421
There's something that's wrong with them.
00:34:26.421 --> 00:34:28.390
There is a moral standard that we're aware of that others don't
00:34:28.390 --> 00:34:31.927
Keep, and we're also aware that we don't keep it either.
00:34:31.927 --> 00:34:37.166
You know, i gave a lecture a number of years ago at berkeley,
00:34:37.166 --> 00:34:41.603
Some people call it berserkley.
00:34:41.603 --> 00:34:43.172
And i was talking about this very thing, and i asked about
00:34:43.172 --> 00:34:46.942
The feelings people have about their own moral brokenness, and
00:34:46.942 --> 00:34:50.579
The word they used to describe it.
00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:52.781
And i waited while the answer came from the
00:34:52.781 --> 00:34:54.716
Audience essentially.
00:34:54.716 --> 00:34:56.718
I just was quiet and then all of a sudden people said guilt,
00:34:56.718 --> 00:34:59.288
Guilt, guilt, guilt.
00:34:59.288 --> 00:35:01.156
Yeah, we feel guilty, why?
00:35:01.156 --> 00:35:03.125
Why do we feel guilty?
00:35:03.125 --> 00:35:04.493
I asked the audience.
00:35:04.493 --> 00:35:05.827
I don't know, maybe it's culture that causes guilt.
00:35:05.827 --> 00:35:07.729
How about this?
00:35:07.729 --> 00:35:09.064
Maybe we feel guilty because we are guilty.
00:35:09.064 --> 00:35:12.634
Is that in the running?
00:35:12.634 --> 00:35:14.336
And i said this, the answer to guilt is not denial,
00:35:14.336 --> 00:35:18.440
That's relativism.
00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:19.775
The answer to guilt is forgiveness, and this, i said,
00:35:19.775 --> 00:35:23.712
Is where jesus comes in.
00:35:23.712 --> 00:35:25.480
So what i've done in that situation, i did actually all
00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.317
The whole hour, i hadn't talked about god or jesus or anything.
00:35:28.317 --> 00:35:31.153
I was talking about relativism.
00:35:31.153 --> 00:35:32.888
But i had prepared a way to go right to the heart now to this
00:35:32.888 --> 00:35:38.126
Sense that we all have of our moral brokenness and our need
00:35:38.126 --> 00:35:41.263
For rescue.
00:35:41.263 --> 00:35:42.631
Oh, by the way, that reminds me, kirk, we have a gift for
00:35:42.631 --> 00:35:44.733
Your listeners.
00:35:44.733 --> 00:35:46.868
It's actually a chapter of the book on the rescue itself, and i
00:35:46.868 --> 00:35:50.973
Think we've titled the chapter "for the sake of the gift, how
00:35:50.973 --> 00:35:54.343
God heals a broken world."
00:35:54.343 --> 00:35:55.711
So if they go to str.org, that's the stand to reason website,
00:35:55.711 --> 00:35:59.848
Str.org/takeaways, there'll be a letter from me and a welcome and
00:35:59.848 --> 00:36:05.053
Opportunity to get, download the pdf of that particular chapter,
00:36:05.053 --> 00:36:08.457
So they can get rolling on something in the book at
00:36:08.457 --> 00:36:10.859
No charge.
00:36:10.859 --> 00:36:12.194
Kirk: terrific, i love it.
00:36:12.194 --> 00:36:13.695
Greg, how do you answer the claim that all religions are
00:36:13.695 --> 00:36:18.634
Basically telling the same story of reality just in
00:36:18.634 --> 00:36:21.970
Different ways?
00:36:21.970 --> 00:36:23.305
Is that true?
00:36:23.305 --> 00:36:25.040
Greg: it would be like me-- it would be if i were saying, you
00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:27.576
Know, kirk, you and i have basically the same details in
00:36:27.576 --> 00:36:31.113
Our past life.
00:36:31.113 --> 00:36:32.814
I mean, we're both human beings, right?
00:36:32.814 --> 00:36:34.216
We're so we're both, so we all have the same history.
00:36:34.216 --> 00:36:36.451
Well, this is silly, you've got an entirely different history
00:36:36.451 --> 00:36:39.087
Than i have.
00:36:39.087 --> 00:36:40.422
People make this statement all the time, and i might ask 'em,
00:36:40.422 --> 00:36:44.426
Tell me more.
00:36:44.426 --> 00:36:45.794
How are they all basically the same?
00:36:45.794 --> 00:36:47.162
Because they're not basically the same, which is why they're
00:36:47.162 --> 00:36:49.531
Different religions, right?
00:36:49.531 --> 00:36:51.133
They have totally different ideas about-- they're different
00:36:51.133 --> 00:36:55.003
Stories of reality.
00:36:55.003 --> 00:36:56.471
So look at christians and jews and muslims believe that god is
00:36:56.471 --> 00:37:00.642
Personal, right?
00:37:00.642 --> 00:37:02.144
But hindus believe that he's not personal.
00:37:02.144 --> 00:37:04.913
Now, he either-- if he exists, he either is personal or not,
00:37:04.913 --> 00:37:09.184
And if he's personal, then the jews, christians, muslims are
00:37:09.184 --> 00:37:11.820
Correct on that point, and the hindus are wrong.
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:14.556
If he's not personal, the hindus are right, at least on that
00:37:14.556 --> 00:37:17.092
Point, and the jews, christians, and muslims are wrong, but they
00:37:17.092 --> 00:37:21.163
Can't be both the same.
00:37:21.163 --> 00:37:22.564
They can't both be right, because they believe
00:37:22.564 --> 00:37:25.267
Contradictory things, you know?
00:37:25.267 --> 00:37:29.004
Either jesus is the messiah, or he's not.
00:37:29.004 --> 00:37:31.440
Either the jews are wrong, or the christians are wrong, but
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.142
They both can't be right.
00:37:34.142 --> 00:37:35.510
They're not basically the same.
00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:37.212
When you die, maybe you go to heaven or hell, maybe you get
00:37:37.212 --> 00:37:39.414
Reincarnated, maybe you're lying in the grave, but you can't do
00:37:39.414 --> 00:37:41.883
Them all, right?
00:37:41.883 --> 00:37:44.453
There are competing views from these religions, which is why
00:37:44.453 --> 00:37:47.789
There are different religions, because they have different
00:37:47.789 --> 00:37:50.926
Pictures of reality, entirely different pictures.
00:37:50.926 --> 00:37:54.563
Sometimes there's overlap, but taken as a whole, they're
00:37:54.563 --> 00:37:57.733
Very different.
00:37:57.733 --> 00:37:59.101
So that's just a factual claim that's false when say all
00:37:59.101 --> 00:38:03.205
Religions are basically the same.
00:38:03.205 --> 00:38:05.140
And my tactical approach is just gonna-- it's going to be to ask
00:38:05.140 --> 00:38:08.443
Them how.
00:38:08.443 --> 00:38:10.278
How are they basically the same?
00:38:10.278 --> 00:38:11.680
Kirk: yeah, you're putting the ball back in their court, asking
00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:13.382
Them the question and put the burden of proof upon the person
00:38:13.382 --> 00:38:16.451
Making that claim.
00:38:16.451 --> 00:38:17.786
Greg: exactly, because this is obviously false.
00:38:17.786 --> 00:38:19.154
All you have to do is think about it for a while.
00:38:19.154 --> 00:38:20.756
Kirk: yeah, yeah, oh, this is so good.
00:38:20.756 --> 00:38:22.657
I wanna double click on this and the resurrection.
00:38:22.657 --> 00:38:26.928
I really wanna get into that right after the break.
00:38:26.928 --> 00:38:29.398
We're gonna be right back with greg, sharing more about the
00:38:29.398 --> 00:38:32.000
Story of reality and how it can change your life forever.
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.203
Stay with us.
00:38:35.203 --> 00:38:37.239
[music]
00:38:37.305 --> 00:38:41.999
[music]
00:38:41.999 --> 00:38:43.402
[music]
00:38:43.735 --> 00:38:47.439
Kirk: we're back with greg koukl.
00:38:50.175 --> 00:38:51.576
He's our guest today, and we're talking about the story of the
00:38:51.576 --> 00:38:54.079
Bible summed up through five simple words, god, man, jesus,
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:59.518
Cross, and resurrection.
00:38:59.518 --> 00:39:02.354
Greg, we've talked about maybe three of these, and now let's
00:39:02.354 --> 00:39:06.658
Really get into jesus and the resurrection.
00:39:06.658 --> 00:39:09.628
What is the best way for us to communicate who jesus is and
00:39:09.628 --> 00:39:14.032
What he did and why that's important?
00:39:14.032 --> 00:39:16.835
Greg: well, i guess the simplest way to solve this, because
00:39:16.835 --> 00:39:20.105
There's so many ideas about who jesus is and what he came to do,
00:39:20.105 --> 00:39:24.309
Is to let him talk.
00:39:24.309 --> 00:39:27.712
I know that sounds funny, but it's so true, because there are
00:39:27.712 --> 00:39:31.149
These people who have this idea that jesus came to be a social
00:39:31.149 --> 00:39:35.554
Justice warrior, you know?
00:39:35.554 --> 00:39:37.422
I actually started in in matthew 1:1 and went all the way to the
00:39:37.422 --> 00:39:41.259
End of john.
00:39:41.259 --> 00:39:42.627
Everything that was recorded about jesus in the accounts of
00:39:42.627 --> 00:39:45.197
His life, and it turns out that there's nothing like
00:39:45.197 --> 00:39:48.233
This anywhere.
00:39:48.233 --> 00:39:49.568
I wrote a piece called "the legend of the social
00:39:49.568 --> 00:39:51.803
Justice jesus."
00:39:51.803 --> 00:39:53.205
It's on str.org if people want to read it, it doesn't cost
00:39:53.205 --> 00:39:56.274
Anything, just go read it, and it'll show you what jesus
00:39:56.274 --> 00:39:59.244
Actually said about himself.
00:39:59.244 --> 00:40:01.213
And when you look at those words and also those people all around
00:40:01.213 --> 00:40:05.150
Him from the time he was born on through, behold the lamb of god,
00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:08.787
You know, john the baptist, et cetera, "i came to seek and to
00:40:08.787 --> 00:40:13.391
Save that which was lost.
00:40:13.391 --> 00:40:15.360
I came to give my life a ransom for many."
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.163
So, what is a ransom?
00:40:18.163 --> 00:40:19.498
It's a payment, right?
00:40:19.498 --> 00:40:21.066
To rescue somebody, maybe as somebody who's been captive or a
00:40:21.066 --> 00:40:23.869
Slave or kidnapped or something, and what's the payment that
00:40:23.869 --> 00:40:27.873
He makes?
00:40:27.873 --> 00:40:29.241
The payment that he makes is his own body.
00:40:29.241 --> 00:40:32.077
Now that may sound weird to some people who are not associated
00:40:32.077 --> 00:40:34.513
With this, but the fact is we are in slavery to sin, and
00:40:34.513 --> 00:40:41.019
Because we are rebels against god, we're in trouble with
00:40:41.019 --> 00:40:45.090
God, okay?
00:40:45.090 --> 00:40:46.791
And jesus said in matthew 10, he said, "do not fear man who can
00:40:46.791 --> 00:40:51.363
Kill the body and not the soul, fear him who can throw both body
00:40:51.363 --> 00:40:55.367
And soul in hell."
00:40:55.367 --> 00:40:57.502
Now what?
00:40:57.502 --> 00:40:58.837
Now we have all these crimes against us.
00:40:58.837 --> 00:41:00.705
Now we're guilty before holy god, now what?
00:41:00.705 --> 00:41:04.743
And jesus says, and this is a strange passage, it's in the
00:41:04.743 --> 00:41:07.846
Book of hebrews, it's not in the birth narratives, but it is
00:41:07.846 --> 00:41:11.550
About his birth.
00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:12.884
When he comes into the world, he says, behold, "i have come, a
00:41:12.884 --> 00:41:17.556
Body you have prepared for me to do your will, o god.
00:41:17.556 --> 00:41:23.361
And in the scroll of the book it's written of me."
00:41:23.361 --> 00:41:25.864
So somehow when the word became flesh in the person of baby
00:41:25.864 --> 00:41:31.703
Jesus, he's saying to the father, "i have a body that is
00:41:31.703 --> 00:41:36.041
Given to be sacrificed on behalf of sinful people, so i can take
00:41:36.041 --> 00:41:41.446
The punishment that they deserve."
00:41:41.446 --> 00:41:45.317
He came down from heaven, took on a human form, and looked to
00:41:45.317 --> 00:41:49.754
The father and said, "take me instead."
00:41:49.754 --> 00:41:52.891
That's the trade, and that's the trade that happened on a small
00:41:52.891 --> 00:41:56.094
Outcropping of hill that the locals called golgotha, the
00:41:56.094 --> 00:41:59.431
Place of the skull.
00:41:59.431 --> 00:42:00.799
We know it as calvary, the place of the cross.
00:42:00.799 --> 00:42:04.102
That's where that trade took place, so jesus could take our
00:42:04.102 --> 00:42:07.872
Punishment so we could get his goodness.
00:42:07.872 --> 00:42:12.210
And theologians call that justification, you know, or
00:42:12.210 --> 00:42:18.083
Substitutionary atonement, but it can be understood in a very
00:42:18.083 --> 00:42:20.952
Simple way.
00:42:20.952 --> 00:42:22.320
That is the turning point of the story for the rescue
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:26.691
Of humanity.
00:42:26.691 --> 00:42:28.026
Kirk: and no other story has something even close to
00:42:28.026 --> 00:42:30.996
Something like that.
00:42:30.996 --> 00:42:32.330
It's either all justice, and you work your way up to heaven by
00:42:32.330 --> 00:42:36.067
Being good, or you get reincarnated, but here you have
00:42:36.067 --> 00:42:38.670
The judge taking off his robes and coming down and saying take
00:42:38.670 --> 00:42:44.075
Me instead, and he pays the price for us.
00:42:44.075 --> 00:42:46.945
Greg: yeah, that's the magnificent thing about the
00:42:46.945 --> 00:42:50.749
Trade, because i mentioned in the beginning of the book that
00:42:50.749 --> 00:42:53.585
God initiates, because man gets himself into a whole heap
00:42:53.585 --> 00:42:56.755
Of trouble.
00:42:56.755 --> 00:42:58.123
He's made to be in friendship with god, but he gets himself in
00:42:58.123 --> 00:43:00.325
A lot of trouble, and so god initiates a rescue plan, and in
00:43:00.325 --> 00:43:04.829
This story, man does not rescue himself.
00:43:04.829 --> 00:43:07.799
This is the distinction you're talking about here, kirk.
00:43:07.799 --> 00:43:10.969
Man does not rescue himself.
00:43:10.969 --> 00:43:13.271
Man can't rescue himself.
00:43:13.271 --> 00:43:16.107
God must rescue him, and that's how he does it by coming down,
00:43:16.107 --> 00:43:20.912
Jesus, emmanuel, god with us.
00:43:20.912 --> 00:43:24.082
Kirk: you know, this is at the very heart of every great movie.
00:43:24.082 --> 00:43:26.985
When we watch a movie, whether it's superman, or whether it's
00:43:26.985 --> 00:43:30.255
The avengers or it's any great epic story, and you have that
00:43:30.255 --> 00:43:34.426
Archetypal hero, it's the one who lays down his life for
00:43:34.426 --> 00:43:38.329
Others, it's that self-sacrificing love.
00:43:38.329 --> 00:43:41.332
It's the story "in the chronicles of narnia."
00:43:41.332 --> 00:43:43.201
It's the story in all of these stories.
00:43:43.201 --> 00:43:45.270
Greg: in harry potter.
00:43:45.270 --> 00:43:46.604
Kirk: yeah, so we see it in "lord of the rings," we see it
00:43:46.604 --> 00:43:48.473
Everywhere, and it all has to do with dying in order to
00:43:48.473 --> 00:43:55.480
Overcome death.
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:57.215
What are the four facts about jesus's death that nearly all
00:43:57.215 --> 00:44:02.754
Scholars tend to agree upon, and why is it significant?
00:44:02.754 --> 00:44:05.523
Greg: well, this is a new development in historical
00:44:05.523 --> 00:44:08.159
Studies of the gospels, matthew, mark, luke, and john, which you
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:11.396
Are the primary source historical documents that
00:44:11.396 --> 00:44:14.432
Historians use, and they all agree-- actually there's more
00:44:14.432 --> 00:44:17.602
Than four, but i've summed up four in the book-- that jesus
00:44:17.602 --> 00:44:22.674
Died on a roman cross, that he was buried in a tomb, that the
00:44:22.674 --> 00:44:26.578
Tomb was empty, and then there was a transformation in lives,
00:44:26.578 --> 00:44:31.382
Transformation in the lives of people who were previously
00:44:31.382 --> 00:44:35.653
Gutless like his disciples behind the doors, lights out,
00:44:35.653 --> 00:44:38.857
Knees knocking, doors locked, all that, and then all of a
00:44:38.857 --> 00:44:42.460
Sudden they're transformed into these vibrant witnesses for
00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:45.663
Christ, and not just them, but also people who are skeptics
00:44:45.663 --> 00:44:49.300
Like james, jesus's half brother, and saul of tarsus, who
00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:53.271
Is a persecutor.
00:44:53.271 --> 00:44:54.639
And so they acknowledged-- by the way, there was nothing
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:57.008
Miraculous about the fact that jesus died, was an empty tomb, i
00:44:57.008 --> 00:45:01.212
Mean in the tomb, then the tomb was empty, and then these
00:45:01.212 --> 00:45:04.582
Different people had these experiences that they thought
00:45:04.582 --> 00:45:09.154
Were experiences of christ.
00:45:09.154 --> 00:45:11.156
But then the question becomes given those four facts that
00:45:11.156 --> 00:45:14.159
Everybody agrees on, pretty much almost universally, few
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:17.162
Naysayers, but these are really solid things for good reasons,
00:45:17.162 --> 00:45:20.765
And what are the-- what best explains that?
00:45:20.765 --> 00:45:24.002
Now we're back to the best explanation for the way
00:45:24.002 --> 00:45:26.638
Things are.
00:45:26.638 --> 00:45:28.006
Well, the disciples stole the body.
00:45:28.006 --> 00:45:29.374
Well, if the disciples stole the body, that means they were lying
00:45:29.374 --> 00:45:32.877
When they said he was risen.
00:45:32.877 --> 00:45:34.412
Now, here's the deal about lying, and every schoolboy
00:45:34.412 --> 00:45:36.548
Knows this.
00:45:36.548 --> 00:45:37.882
You always tell a lie that gets you something good, right?
00:45:37.882 --> 00:45:40.718
You don't tell a lie that gets you whipped, beaten, stoned,
00:45:40.718 --> 00:45:45.723
Crucified upside down, or your head cut off.
00:45:45.723 --> 00:45:47.959
I mean, this is not a good lie.
00:45:47.959 --> 00:45:49.694
Kirk: right.
00:45:49.694 --> 00:45:51.062
Greg: but these are the kinds of things that the disciples
00:45:51.062 --> 00:45:52.931
Experience for maintaining their testimony about jesus.
00:45:52.931 --> 00:45:56.000
And by the way, what about saul?
00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:59.938
What about james?
00:45:59.938 --> 00:46:01.272
They had no inclination to believe.
00:46:01.272 --> 00:46:03.374
So you can look at all kinds of different options, and i explore
00:46:03.374 --> 00:46:06.044
Some of the ones that people have suggested, or
00:46:06.044 --> 00:46:07.812
It's hallucination.
00:46:07.812 --> 00:46:09.414
Wait, hallucinations are in your head.
00:46:09.414 --> 00:46:11.749
You can't share a hallucination.
00:46:11.749 --> 00:46:14.319
You know, you wake up in the middle of the night, you have a
00:46:14.319 --> 00:46:17.121
Great dream, say, hey chelsea, hold my hand, we're gonna go
00:46:17.121 --> 00:46:19.424
Back to sleep, and we're all gonna have the same dream.
00:46:19.424 --> 00:46:21.559
It doesn't work like that.
00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:22.894
I know leonardo dicaprio got away with that in hollywood, in
00:46:22.894 --> 00:46:26.865
Real life that doesn't work that way.
00:46:26.865 --> 00:46:28.433
So you're not gonna share a hallucination that happens many
00:46:28.433 --> 00:46:31.302
Times over in many different locations in a room, on the
00:46:31.302 --> 00:46:35.440
Road, by the seaside, while they're having dinner, while
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.976
They're having a snack, while they're chit-chatting here and
00:46:37.976 --> 00:46:39.744
There, that's not a good explanation.
00:46:39.744 --> 00:46:42.113
The only explanation that makes sense of all the details is the
00:46:42.113 --> 00:46:46.951
One that they gave, the one who is dead is now alive, and we are
00:46:46.951 --> 00:46:51.222
Witnesses to that thing.
00:46:51.222 --> 00:46:53.358
Kirk: you say in your book, greg, that we are living right
00:46:53.358 --> 00:46:56.027
Now between the beginning of god's story and the end, and
00:46:56.027 --> 00:47:01.032
Those middle chapters are really dangerous.
00:47:01.032 --> 00:47:04.402
What are you hoping will be the takeaway when people read
00:47:04.402 --> 00:47:08.673
Your book?
00:47:08.673 --> 00:47:10.575
Greg: well, there's two things that come to mind, kirk.
00:47:10.575 --> 00:47:13.044
One is that followers of christ will have their eyes opened to
00:47:13.044 --> 00:47:18.917
The breadth of the story and then see how a bunch of things
00:47:18.917 --> 00:47:23.421
Fit together.
00:47:23.421 --> 00:47:24.789
Why jesus is the only way.
00:47:24.789 --> 00:47:26.124
What about the problem of evil?
00:47:26.124 --> 00:47:28.493
Singular problems, problem of evil, often have singular
00:47:28.493 --> 00:47:32.163
Solutions, jesus.
00:47:32.163 --> 00:47:33.932
And those fit together.
00:47:33.932 --> 00:47:35.533
It's not a problem when you understand the whole story, and
00:47:35.533 --> 00:47:38.169
I hope that's going to happen to them.
00:47:38.169 --> 00:47:39.604
They're going to be enriched in that way, and it's going to make
00:47:39.604 --> 00:47:42.340
More sense to them than they ever have.
00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:44.776
I also-- whenever i sat down to wordsmith in my chapters, i
00:47:44.776 --> 00:47:49.047
Thought of the non-christian, and i wanted this thing to read
00:47:49.047 --> 00:47:52.116
Like a narrative, like a easy read that's got a kind of a
00:47:52.116 --> 00:47:55.586
Flavor of cs* lewis's "mere christianity," and i did that on
00:47:55.586 --> 00:47:59.023
Purpose, because i think that was really accessible and this
00:47:59.023 --> 00:48:01.526
Is for a new generation.
00:48:01.526 --> 00:48:03.127
And i'm hoping non-christians are gonna pick this up, and
00:48:03.127 --> 00:48:05.964
They're going to see in the totality of the christian
00:48:05.964 --> 00:48:08.666
Worldview, they're going to see an elegance of that worldview
00:48:08.666 --> 00:48:13.471
That they never saw before.
00:48:13.471 --> 00:48:14.906
There's a little apologetics kind of mixed in in different
00:48:14.906 --> 00:48:17.108
Places, as is appropriate, like lewis did with "mere
00:48:17.108 --> 00:48:19.877
Christianity," but i think it's the big picture that you see
00:48:19.877 --> 00:48:23.481
That it has a certain coherence and cohesiveness and elegance
00:48:23.481 --> 00:48:27.585
And indeed beauty that is going to commend it to people, and i
00:48:27.585 --> 00:48:31.589
Hope those are the kinds of things that take place when
00:48:31.589 --> 00:48:34.592
People read it.
00:48:34.592 --> 00:48:35.960
Kirk: well, i absolutely love it, and i think it's
00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:37.295
So important.
00:48:37.295 --> 00:48:38.663
Greg, thanks so much for joining us.
00:48:38.663 --> 00:48:39.998
Greg: yeah, remember str.org, forward slash takeaways, and
00:48:39.998 --> 00:48:43.568
People can get a complimentary copy of a chapter of the book
00:48:43.568 --> 00:48:47.038
Called "the rescue," and love to have them visit.
00:48:47.038 --> 00:48:49.640
Kirk: yep, check it out, don't miss it.
00:48:49.640 --> 00:48:51.175
And after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:48:51.175 --> 00:48:54.379
[music]
00:48:54.379 --> 00:48:59.994
[music]
00:48:59.994 --> 00:49:00.621
[music]
00:49:00.955 --> 00:49:04.658
Kirk: have you ever asked yourself what is reality, and
00:49:07.528 --> 00:49:10.664
Why don't we see it all the same way?
00:49:10.664 --> 00:49:12.700
I had an amazing conversation today with greg koukl as we
00:49:12.700 --> 00:49:15.736
Explored how seeing the whole story of reality, god, man,
00:49:15.736 --> 00:49:20.975
Jesus, the cross, and the resurrection, can completely
00:49:20.975 --> 00:49:24.678
Change the way we live, the way we see the world, and the way we
00:49:24.678 --> 00:49:28.649
Relate to others.
00:49:28.649 --> 00:49:30.017
Here's a few of our takeaways.
00:49:30.017 --> 00:49:34.555
Assemble the puzzle.
00:49:34.555 --> 00:49:36.557
Greg described the story of reality like a puzzle.
00:49:36.557 --> 00:49:40.161
We talked about this image of dumping a puzzle on the floor
00:49:40.161 --> 00:49:43.764
And how we need to assemble it in order to see the
00:49:43.764 --> 00:49:46.834
Bigger picture.
00:49:46.834 --> 00:49:48.169
That's how faith works.
00:49:48.169 --> 00:49:49.537
We need an understanding of how the key parts of christianity
00:49:49.537 --> 00:49:52.706
Connect so that we can see god's story from the beginning to the
00:49:52.706 --> 00:49:57.711
End and how we fit in between.
00:49:57.711 --> 00:50:00.714
Jesus often used stories and parables to explain the kingdom
00:50:00.714 --> 00:50:04.952
Of god in a way that could be understood and remembered.
00:50:04.952 --> 00:50:09.356
When we remember that we're a part of his story, we find
00:50:09.356 --> 00:50:13.727
Deeper meaning and purpose.
00:50:13.727 --> 00:50:15.796
We see that christianity isn't just a belief, it's the true
00:50:15.796 --> 00:50:19.934
Story of reality.
00:50:19.934 --> 00:50:23.104
Confront secular science.
00:50:23.104 --> 00:50:25.673
Another fascinating part of our conversation today was when we
00:50:25.673 --> 00:50:28.542
Looked at secular science and creation and realized they
00:50:28.542 --> 00:50:32.980
Actually agree on one thing, the universe had an
00:50:32.980 --> 00:50:36.083
Absolute beginning.
00:50:36.083 --> 00:50:37.585
The difference is secular science says something came
00:50:37.585 --> 00:50:41.388
From nothing.
00:50:41.388 --> 00:50:42.823
Faith says something came from someone, god.
00:50:42.823 --> 00:50:48.095
Greg also reminded us that there are many realities of our world
00:50:48.095 --> 00:50:52.032
That secular science cannot touch.
00:50:52.032 --> 00:50:54.935
He used this example of gravity.
00:50:54.935 --> 00:50:57.171
Whether we believe in it or not, it's still real.
00:50:57.171 --> 00:51:00.841
And the same thing is true for things like math and the most
00:51:00.841 --> 00:51:04.211
Meaningful parts of life, love and relationships.
00:51:04.211 --> 00:51:07.681
Just because we can't touch them or measure them doesn't make
00:51:07.681 --> 00:51:11.652
Them any less real.
00:51:11.652 --> 00:51:14.288
And the bigger picture, there is a god behind it all, and when we
00:51:14.288 --> 00:51:18.058
Look closely, true science points us toward the creator.
00:51:18.058 --> 00:51:24.331
Acknowledge brokenness.
00:51:24.331 --> 00:51:26.567
Greg said almost everyone agrees that the world is not the way it
00:51:26.567 --> 00:51:31.071
Ought to be, and he's right.
00:51:31.071 --> 00:51:33.207
We all can see the brokenness around us and within us.
00:51:33.207 --> 00:51:37.478
In our conversation we acknowledged that brokenness is
00:51:37.478 --> 00:51:41.115
Proof that everything is not right in the world.
00:51:41.115 --> 00:51:44.652
There's a moral standard that others don't always keep, and
00:51:44.652 --> 00:51:48.589
We're also aware that we don't always keep it.
00:51:48.589 --> 00:51:51.458
So how do we confront the brokenness?
00:51:51.458 --> 00:51:55.296
It starts with us.
00:51:55.296 --> 00:51:57.631
We can examine our own heart, acknowledging our sin, and then
00:51:57.631 --> 00:52:01.368
Choosing forgiveness over guilt.
00:52:01.368 --> 00:52:06.207
Let jesus talk.
00:52:06.207 --> 00:52:08.075
One of my favorite things greg said was this, let jesus do
00:52:08.075 --> 00:52:11.845
The talking.
00:52:11.845 --> 00:52:13.180
When we point people back to what jesus actually said about
00:52:13.180 --> 00:52:16.183
Himself, we remind them that we can't save ourselves.
00:52:16.183 --> 00:52:20.554
We need a rescuer.
00:52:20.554 --> 00:52:23.090
Jesus came to seek and save the lost, to give his life as a
00:52:23.090 --> 00:52:27.828
Payment for ours.
00:52:27.828 --> 00:52:29.830
Doesn't that sound like the kind of hero in most books or
00:52:29.830 --> 00:52:33.367
Hollywood movies?
00:52:33.367 --> 00:52:34.935
He is the hero in the story everyone's searching for.
00:52:34.935 --> 00:52:39.440
And when we share jesus's words, we help others discover that
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:42.943
Christianity and redemption is not fiction.
00:52:42.943 --> 00:52:47.047
It's the truest story there ever was.
00:52:47.047 --> 00:52:51.151
Well, that's it for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:51.151 --> 00:52:53.520
Thank you for watching and if you've enjoyed the show, don't
00:52:53.520 --> 00:52:56.223
Forget to set your dvr so you never miss an episode.
00:52:56.223 --> 00:52:59.493
And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:59.493 --> 00:53:02.263
Searching for takeaways on tbn+ or just visit the kirk cameron
00:53:02.263 --> 00:53:06.967
On tbn youtube channel.
00:53:06.967 --> 00:53:09.136
We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
00:53:09.136 --> 00:53:13.841
[music]
00:53:13.841 --> 00:53:13.841

Greg Koukl: Explaining the Christian Worldview | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

November 10, 2025 | 55:2

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