Henry Cloud: Healed from the Inside Out: A Personal Faith Story | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

December 9, 2024 | 53:25

Join Kirk Cameron to discuss pressing issues Christians are facing with compassionate, well-informed guests, and together, find actionable takeaways that we can use today, this week, and this month to bring more of Heaven to Earth.

#PersonalStory #Salvation #Testimony #Faith #Author #Relationships #RelationshipwithGod #Religion #Evangelism #Peopleinyourlife #Witness/Witnessing #TalkShow #KirkCameron #TakeawaysWithKirkCameron #HenryCloud

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Henry Cloud: Healed from the Inside Out: A Personal Faith Story | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | December 9, 2024

Kirk cameron: why do you believe what you believe?
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Have you ever thought about that?
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We all have beliefs about a lot of different things and we all
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Have a belief about god.
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Well, today we're gonna get insight into someone's very
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Personal faith story.
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How it all began, the trials, the miracles, and the questions
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That surfaced along the way.
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It's a god-sized story, and i'm excited for you to hear it.
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Let's talk about it all right now on "takeaways."
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Dr. henry cloud: i know, i understand there are a thousand
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Reasons to not believe.
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I want you to know why i believe.
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There is so much of reality
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And proof that he is real.
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♪♪♪
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Kirk: you know dr. henry cloud as a leadership expert, clinical
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Psychologist, and best-selling author.
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But do you know his personal journey to belief in god?
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Well, you're about to.
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Henry, i'm so happy to be here with you in person this time.
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Dr. cloud: this is a lot better.
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Kirk: you know, so many of us are so grateful
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For your book, "boundaries," and the other books that you've
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Written on mental health, but this one is unique,
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Especially coming from you.
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"why i believe," and this almost looks like a face of a buddha on
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Here or some sort of a spiritual mind, and--
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Dr. cloud: so the subtitle is, "a psychologist's thoughts on
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Suffering, miracles, science, and faith."
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So, it's--i guess it's supposed to be the shrink's head opening
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Up to heaven.
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Kirk: the--oh, that's right.
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Well, i find this so fascinating and i love the subject of
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Apologetics and didn't think i'd get a book from you on why
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You believe.
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But i'm so fascinated.
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I can't wait to talk to you about this.
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Dr. cloud: well, i've never claimed to be an apologetics
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Expert, but i have a personal story of my own journey, right?
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And it's probably easiest to explain it--you know, in the
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Preface, it begins with the reality of why this book.
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It starts out, it says, "i have an issue, and this book is my
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Attempt to solve it."
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I love god.
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I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's real.
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He's proven that to me for decades.
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That's not my problem.
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My problem is i love my friends and many of them don't know him,
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And i want them to.
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But sometimes i struggle with how to talk about that topic.
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You know, for a lot of people, it's so sensitive and they think
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You're trying to convert them and, you know, it's divisive,
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And this just ached in me for so long of how to get into it.
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So finally i said, "well, i'm just gonna write my story in a
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Little 40-page thing," and just, "to my
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Friends," and hand it to them.
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Kirk: yeah, like a little personal tract.
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Dr. cloud: yeah, it's like, you know i'm one of those weirdos,
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But we've never talked about it.
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Here's one.
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And i started to share the idea with some christian friends and
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Every one of them said, "i have that same problem.
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I need that book."
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I go, "well, it's not a book."
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They say, "write the book because i want to give it to
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My friends."
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So that's how it started.
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Kirk: and what you've done here is you've given us from your
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Incredible perspective why a clinical psychologist, a
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Leadership expert like you has come to a settled faith in
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Jesus christ.
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So, i'm fascinated.
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Would you go back to the beginning?
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What was your faith like as a kid?
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Dr. cloud: when you say why a psychologist became a person of
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Faith, it's actually--it was--i was totally, i mean, i hit the
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Pavement and in deep, deep depression in college.
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I mean, i was nonfunctional.
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And when god stepped into that, and i found out he was real,
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Through that journey is how i became a psychologist.
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Kirk: okay, faith came first.
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Dr. cloud: but suffering came before the faith.
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Kirk: i want to talk about all of it, and we've got time,
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But let's start in the beginning.
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Did you grow up in a christian home?
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What was your faith like as a kid?
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Dr. cloud: well, i did grow up in a "christian home," but i
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Wouldn't say "christian home" like we think of "christian
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Home" where you have the daily devotions and, you know,
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Learning doctrine and all that stuff.
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My parents were really good, all southern methodists who
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Were--lived their faith out by serving the poor, doing good.
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You know, we went to church on sunday, we said grace before
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Meals, and prayers at bedtime.
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And they were believers, but it wasn't, like, heavy-handed,
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Like--and so when i grew up, i was sort of lost between
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Two worlds.
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You know, i liked god, i just didn't like his friends.
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I thought they were weird.
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So i couldn't identify with the kids that didn't go to dances or
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Couldn't play golf on sunday and the religious stuff.
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But--and then my real friends over here are the ones i liked
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And hung out with, but i didn't feel like i could do everything
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They're doing either.
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So i kind of had this private faith that i never really
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Talked about.
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But it was real, it just wasn't the north star of my life,
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You know.
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My pursuit of my sports career was that.
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And then i went to college, and i had a hand injury.
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I was recruited to play college golf, had a hand injury, was
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Suffering with pain and not playing well, and it--middle of
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My college golf career, you know, just got--so i couldn't do
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It, so i had to quit.
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And that's when i got really depressed and that's when it
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All happened.
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Kirk: you say in your book that when you were younger, even
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Though your faith was not your north star, you still
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Talked with god.
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What kind of things would you talk with him about?
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Dr. cloud: why can't make that relationship with that
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Girlfriend work, you know?
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Kirk: yeah, i'd really like you to.
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Dr. cloud: one of the things--now, i do go into a
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Section, i'm gonna skip ahead a little bit to illustrate that,
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Because it's--it--one of the things i talked to him about a
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Lot, because it was very painful for me, when i was in the
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Seventh grade i had to give an oral book report.
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I never had any problem doing that, standing up in front of
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The class and talking in plays or whatever.
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But i got flustered and i--and then i got nervous and then i
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Got flustered and then i started stuttering, i couldn't talk.
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And the teacher stood up and said, "sit down."
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She said, "if you can't speak in front of people, you will never
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Be successful in life.
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And you said something about one day you
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Might wanna go to law school?
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You'll never be a lawyer.
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You can't do it if you can't speak; sit down."
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And i kind of got, you know, wounded from that and i started
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Avoiding it.
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And avoided it through high school, through college, through
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Graduate school.
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Long story short, i talk about the particulars a little bit,
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But i'm in my 20s, i was getting asked to speak all the time
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Because by this time i was working in the field.
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And i was working out at the gym, this big naked guy walks up
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To me on my way to the showers and he says, "are you
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A christian?"
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And i'm going, this is weird, but it turns out he was a
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Defensive end for the la rams.
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But i go, "yeah, why?"
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He said, "well, god just told me to tell you something."
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And i said, "well, i'm also a psychologist.
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We can make those voices go away, if you want some help."
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He said, "no, look, i'm a pastor."
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And i said okay, so we go next door and sit down and have
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Coffee and said, "here's what god told me.
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When you were a kid, something happened to you that made you
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Afraid to stand up and speak in front of people, and you've
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Avoided it ever since.
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And god wants you to begin speaking for him and he's gonna
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Open some doors and you're to walk through them."
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Now, back to your--that's--i've got a whole section of the book
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Of these miracles that i've experienced, that proved god was
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Real to me.
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But back to your question, i was a kid--when i would go through
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Things, i used to sit on the dock out at the lake
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And--'cause i thought i wanted to go to law school one day and
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Kind of can't talk in front of people.
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And i used to pray about that all the time.
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And so he was real, i just never had jumped in
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And surrendered my life.
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I didn't do that until i had to.
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Kirk: you also talk about god intervening in your life in
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Clear ways.
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Talk about what happened when you were four years old,
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Something with your leg.
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Dr. cloud: yeah, i woke up one morning, i was three and three
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Quarters, almost four years old, severe pain.
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And my parents said i would wake up in the night screaming and
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They didn't--you know, obviously we went to the doctor, they
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Couldn't diagnose it.
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We were in, you know, hospitals just all the time, and i was in
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The hospital for about a month.
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And finally they decided--they were thinking about amputating
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My leg.
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And so we're in the appointment for that, you know, for that
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Meeting, and i don't remember that day particular, but my
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Mother said she and her friend had taken me to the appointment,
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She needed support, and she was in the waiting room, waiting on
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The doctor who was delayed, and she said she heard a voice, and
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The voice said, "leave and take him to new orleans," to a
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Particular hospital.
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A voice told her this, and it was so clear to her.
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She turns to her friend, says, "we gotta go."
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She's like, "what?"
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She says, "we gotta go."
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Takes me, talks my father into this somehow, drives around 225
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Miles to new orleans, check me in randomly to--it was ochsner
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Clinic, big teaching hospital, randomly.
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We don't have a doctor.
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They assigned me to this woman, pediatric oncologist, who is an
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Orthopedic surgeon, randomly.
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They take the x-rays, do all the work, we go in and she says,
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"well, there will be no amputation.
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I know exactly what this is.
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I know how to treat it.
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He'll be in a wheelchair and on braces for a while," it turned
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Out to be close to two years, "but he'll be fine."
00:10:18.407 --> 00:10:21.977
Well, random doctor that i got assigned 200-something miles
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Away that my parents never would have known or thought of if it
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Hadn't been for that voice, she had just moved there from, i
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Think it was chicago, where she was trained by the two doctors
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That discovered the best way to treat this disease.
00:10:38.694 --> 00:10:43.733
And that was--i had always heard that story as a kid, so i kind
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Of knew that god's there somewhere.
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I just never had surrendered fully.
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Kirk: wow, wow.
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But those are compelling events in your life.
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Dr. cloud: because i didn't want to be one of those religious,
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Kooky people.
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Kirk: that's right.
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Well, when young people who grow up in christian homes or
00:10:58.981 --> 00:11:03.352
Christian-friendly homes, particularly, i think, in the
00:11:03.352 --> 00:11:06.222
South, where religion's a church on every corner, when they get
00:11:06.222 --> 00:11:09.892
To 18, 19, 20 years old, they get in their--early years of
00:11:09.892 --> 00:11:12.995
College, many of them just walk away from the faith.
00:11:12.995 --> 00:11:15.297
And we're seeing that happen all the time.
00:11:15.297 --> 00:11:17.199
What did your faith grow into as you started becoming an adult?
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Dr. cloud: you mean after college?
00:11:23.439 --> 00:11:25.574
Kirk: well, right in there, like right in college.
00:11:25.574 --> 00:11:27.176
Dr. cloud: you know, it's--still, i was pursuing my
00:11:27.176 --> 00:11:29.845
Golf career.
00:11:29.845 --> 00:11:31.180
So that was my god, and then i--and this god, but sort of,
00:11:31.180 --> 00:11:35.551
You know, in the background.
00:11:35.551 --> 00:11:37.887
And so that's what it looked like.
00:11:37.887 --> 00:11:39.255
And i went to college and, you know, i was in a fraternity and
00:11:39.255 --> 00:11:42.658
Just doing all the college things, and god was kind of,
00:11:42.658 --> 00:11:45.795
Sort of, becoming--i never didn't believe, just sort of,
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Like, not really something i've seen about a lot, until one day,
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You know, when i--finally when i had to quit, i really hit
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Bottom, i got really depressed, and i had a serious girlfriend
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And we broke up at the same time.
00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:07.583
And, kirk, if i had been a psychologist then, i would have
00:12:07.583 --> 00:12:10.586
Put me in a hospital.
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I mean, i was that nonfunctional.
00:12:12.154 --> 00:12:14.290
I was hiding it, but i couldn't--i mean, it was bad.
00:12:14.290 --> 00:12:18.294
It was really bad.
00:12:18.294 --> 00:12:20.262
And then one day i was sitting in my dorm room, i looked up
00:12:20.262 --> 00:12:23.732
On--and i was going--i was obsessing about all
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These things.
00:12:25.701 --> 00:12:27.036
How do you find what you're gonna do in life?
00:12:27.036 --> 00:12:28.404
I didn't even know what i was gonna do.
00:12:28.404 --> 00:12:29.872
I hated my major.
00:12:29.872 --> 00:12:31.640
How do you find the right relationship?
00:12:31.640 --> 00:12:34.009
How do you make it work?
00:12:34.009 --> 00:12:35.344
And how am i ever gonna feel different?
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I've tried everything, i'm not feeling--can't get out of
00:12:36.846 --> 00:12:39.448
This hole.
00:12:39.448 --> 00:12:40.816
And i'm obsessing about all these things.
00:12:40.816 --> 00:12:43.385
And i look up and i see my bible on the bookshelf with all the
00:12:43.385 --> 00:12:48.490
Other books, stood out somehow.
00:12:48.490 --> 00:12:50.926
I hadn't read it since i've been in college.
00:12:50.926 --> 00:12:53.963
And so i thought, well, maybe there's something there.
00:12:53.963 --> 00:12:56.532
I picked it up, sat on my bed, opened it up and, you know,
00:12:56.532 --> 00:13:00.402
You've--this is just random.
00:13:00.402 --> 00:13:01.770
I just opened it up and, you know, you've heard "a verse
00:13:01.770 --> 00:13:04.106
Jumped out."
00:13:04.106 --> 00:13:05.708
It was matthew 6 and said, "seek first the kingdom of god and his
00:13:05.708 --> 00:13:08.944
Righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you
00:13:08.944 --> 00:13:13.515
As well."
00:13:13.515 --> 00:13:15.251
And i read that, i said, "all these things?
00:13:15.251 --> 00:13:17.419
You mean the stuff i'm obsessing about and worried about and
00:13:17.419 --> 00:13:21.724
Getting--look for god first?
00:13:21.724 --> 00:13:26.395
Well, nothing else is working."
00:13:26.395 --> 00:13:30.799
So i walked across campus into a dark little chapel and said, "i
00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:36.438
Don't know if you're there or not, but i need help."
00:13:36.438 --> 00:13:40.309
And, kirk, i'll never forget this.
00:13:40.309 --> 00:13:42.811
Nothing happened.
00:13:42.811 --> 00:13:44.780
And i knew that was a different step.
00:13:44.780 --> 00:13:46.715
I mean, i really--i said, "i'll do anything you tell me."
00:13:46.715 --> 00:13:50.019
And i knew--it's like i jumped out of a plane.
00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:52.221
If the chute doesn't open--and it didn't open.
00:13:52.221 --> 00:13:54.790
I mean, nothing happened.
00:13:54.790 --> 00:13:56.158
I had seen tv, people get zapped, and i was waiting to get
00:13:56.158 --> 00:13:59.795
Zapped, right?
00:13:59.795 --> 00:14:02.264
And i remember it as the loneliest moment of my life
00:14:02.264 --> 00:14:04.633
'cause i had reached out to god and i didn't feel
00:14:04.633 --> 00:14:07.102
Anything happen.
00:14:07.102 --> 00:14:08.771
So i'm like, "well, call me," and i go back to my dorm room.
00:14:08.771 --> 00:14:13.475
A little bit later, the phone rings and it's a fraternity
00:14:13.475 --> 00:14:16.011
Brother of mine.
00:14:16.011 --> 00:14:17.713
He says, "i don't know why i'm thinking of you, you're, like,
00:14:17.713 --> 00:14:19.648
The last person i would think of to invite to this, but we're
00:14:19.648 --> 00:14:22.651
Starting a bible study at the fraternity house.
00:14:22.651 --> 00:14:26.088
Would you wanna come?"
00:14:26.088 --> 00:14:28.691
And i saw that as some kind of answer, and that's what
00:14:28.691 --> 00:14:32.094
Started it.
00:14:32.094 --> 00:14:33.696
Kirk: wow, wow.
00:14:33.696 --> 00:14:35.197
I can't wait to hear more.
00:14:35.197 --> 00:14:36.799
This is just the start of dr. cloud's story, so don't
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.535
Go anywhere, we'll be right back.
00:14:39.535 --> 00:14:42.204
♪♪♪
00:14:42.204 --> 00:14:45.174
♪♪♪
00:14:45.349 --> 00:14:49.386
Kirk: we're back with dr. henry cloud,
00:14:52.823 --> 00:14:54.191
Who is sharing his personal journey of belief in god.
00:14:54.191 --> 00:14:59.363
Dr. cloud, we were talking about your faith as a young child and
00:14:59.363 --> 00:15:02.566
Growing up and some miracles that took place, the
00:15:02.566 --> 00:15:06.870
Intervention of god, unmistakably, and then an injury
00:15:06.870 --> 00:15:10.874
That came to your hand and interrupted a golf career and
00:15:10.874 --> 00:15:13.644
Led to a depression that was so deep and so dark that if you
00:15:13.644 --> 00:15:18.382
Were a psychologist at that time, you'd have
00:15:18.382 --> 00:15:20.217
Checked yourself into a hospital.
00:15:20.217 --> 00:15:21.552
Dr. cloud: i would have. should have.
00:15:21.552 --> 00:15:23.587
Wish somebody had.
00:15:23.587 --> 00:15:25.622
Kirk: so what was your perception of god during your
00:15:25.622 --> 00:15:30.060
Time of depression?
00:15:30.060 --> 00:15:32.696
Dr. cloud: well, in the beginning, it's like he was in
00:15:32.696 --> 00:15:37.134
The background.
00:15:37.134 --> 00:15:38.502
You know, when i grew up, there was a belief in god, but i
00:15:38.502 --> 00:15:43.240
Didn't go to one of those churches where, you know, people
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.442
Got healed and all that stuff.
00:15:45.442 --> 00:15:46.977
I mean, we said our prayers.
00:15:46.977 --> 00:15:48.979
So i knew he was there as kind of the background object, right?
00:15:48.979 --> 00:15:52.482
But i never knew, really, that god did stuff, he actually
00:15:52.482 --> 00:15:58.755
Intervened into life and could really do stuff.
00:15:58.755 --> 00:16:03.460
I knew it happened in the bible, but yeah, that was for those
00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:05.562
Times, right?
00:16:05.562 --> 00:16:06.897
So that was sort of what it's like.
00:16:06.897 --> 00:16:08.298
But then when i jumped out of the plane, hoping the chute
00:16:08.298 --> 00:16:12.502
Would open, and he actually did begin to do some stuff, then
00:16:12.502 --> 00:16:18.108
Also got introduced into a whole another world and started
00:16:18.108 --> 00:16:22.779
Reading books of people's stories, that i never knew there
00:16:22.779 --> 00:16:28.585
Was a god that was still active today.
00:16:28.585 --> 00:16:31.121
But here's what threw me off.
00:16:31.121 --> 00:16:34.258
But also, it was a hard lesson to learn but a valuable one.
00:16:34.258 --> 00:16:37.828
God was doing things, and i knew he was real, and i was
00:16:37.828 --> 00:16:43.667
Still depressed.
00:16:43.667 --> 00:16:46.203
And so i know he's real, but he's not healing me.
00:16:46.203 --> 00:16:49.873
Now, what i learned was he was healing me, but he had to put me
00:16:49.873 --> 00:16:56.179
Through some processes.
00:16:56.179 --> 00:16:59.049
There was trauma i had never faced inside that he had to get
00:16:59.049 --> 00:17:03.320
Me into, you know, places where i could deal with that.
00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:07.758
There was immaturity that he had to mature.
00:17:07.758 --> 00:17:12.029
There was just the process of doing everything the new
00:17:12.029 --> 00:17:14.564
Testament tells us.
00:17:14.564 --> 00:17:16.900
And then he healed me through healing me, a real healing.
00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:23.206
You know, if he had taken away the depression that first day, i
00:17:23.206 --> 00:17:26.810
Would have still been a broken, immature, non-relational,
00:17:26.810 --> 00:17:30.113
Performance-driven, emotionally detached, undepressed person.
00:17:30.113 --> 00:17:33.817
Well, that's not a good thing because i would have inflicted
00:17:33.817 --> 00:17:36.853
That on others.
00:17:36.853 --> 00:17:38.455
And so he healed me, and all the while there were these moments
00:17:38.455 --> 00:17:43.593
Where there was no doubt he was real.
00:17:43.593 --> 00:17:47.597
He was doing stuff.
00:17:47.597 --> 00:17:48.965
But i learned that god sometimes does things not on our timetable
00:17:48.965 --> 00:17:55.072
But through process as well.
00:17:55.072 --> 00:17:57.708
And through that process that he led me into, that was gonna be
00:17:57.708 --> 00:18:03.380
My life's calling.
00:18:03.380 --> 00:18:05.282
Kirk: what you just said is so important for so many of us who
00:18:05.282 --> 00:18:08.552
Are listening to this and maybe going through
00:18:08.552 --> 00:18:10.287
Difficult, painful things right now.
00:18:10.287 --> 00:18:11.621
And we're praying for healing.
00:18:11.621 --> 00:18:12.956
We want god to do a miracle and we get frustrated when it
00:18:12.956 --> 00:18:15.125
Doesn't happen on our time frame 'cause we want it now,
00:18:15.125 --> 00:18:17.294
Especially when we see, you know, we hear stories of a guy
00:18:17.294 --> 00:18:20.530
Growing a leg, you know, or someone gets healed of
00:18:20.530 --> 00:18:23.266
Their cancer.
00:18:23.266 --> 00:18:24.768
My daughter, when she was a little girl, had a certain kind
00:18:24.768 --> 00:18:28.238
Of a wound that was very painful and it required some kind
00:18:28.238 --> 00:18:34.544
Of surgery, but the thing that was so frustrating
00:18:34.544 --> 00:18:37.214
Was the doctor was saying, "it's healing, it's healing," and what
00:18:37.214 --> 00:18:40.851
We wanted was for that wound to close.
00:18:40.851 --> 00:18:43.186
But you know what they made us do?
00:18:43.186 --> 00:18:44.755
They made us keep the wound open and draining and raw and
00:18:44.755 --> 00:18:50.927
Vulnerable to even more pain.
00:18:50.927 --> 00:18:53.296
Because why?
00:18:53.296 --> 00:18:54.631
Because he said, "it has to heal from the inside out.
00:18:54.631 --> 00:18:57.401
If i cover it up, if i heal it, everything underneath is gonna
00:18:57.401 --> 00:19:00.971
Continue to fester and it won't heal."
00:19:00.971 --> 00:19:03.573
Dr. cloud: that's it.
00:19:03.573 --> 00:19:04.941
See, i would, as i said, i would have still stayed a screwed up
00:19:04.941 --> 00:19:10.380
Person without any pain.
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:12.682
Well, that's what people that are really, really detached do.
00:19:12.682 --> 00:19:15.952
They inflict all this stuff on everybody else, and their life
00:19:15.952 --> 00:19:18.955
Doesn't work.
00:19:18.955 --> 00:19:20.323
And, you know, i've had two knee replacements.
00:19:20.323 --> 00:19:23.393
And after the knee replacement, you're healed, right?
00:19:23.393 --> 00:19:28.565
But if you don't go through the painful process of the rehab,
00:19:28.565 --> 00:19:34.404
It's gonna get healed in a place where it can't function well.
00:19:34.404 --> 00:19:39.075
And it reminds me of the passage, you know, where it said
00:19:39.075 --> 00:19:41.445
Jesus was perfected through the things that he suffered.
00:19:41.445 --> 00:19:47.417
And 1 peter 1 says, "arm yourselves with the same purpose
00:19:47.417 --> 00:19:52.189
That christ had, and that was to suffer in the flesh, for he who
00:19:52.189 --> 00:19:56.226
Suffers in the flesh will be done with sin."
00:19:56.226 --> 00:20:00.297
And you think about--take an addict, for example.
00:20:00.297 --> 00:20:03.200
An addict is avoiding going into the pain they need to go into to
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:08.839
Get well.
00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:10.273
They're avoiding the suffering in the flesh and all the
00:20:10.273 --> 00:20:13.243
Problems still continue.
00:20:13.243 --> 00:20:15.312
And sometimes, not everybody, you know, people are sinned
00:20:15.312 --> 00:20:19.282
Against and they're suffering nothing to do with anything
00:20:19.282 --> 00:20:22.953
They did.
00:20:22.953 --> 00:20:24.321
The bible addresses that, too, that we have to heal the
00:20:24.321 --> 00:20:26.156
Brokenhearted and all of that.
00:20:26.156 --> 00:20:28.091
But most healing, even when god does something supernatural,
00:20:28.091 --> 00:20:34.130
There is a process.
00:20:34.130 --> 00:20:35.532
And then i learned in the bible, later, after, you know, i gotta
00:20:35.532 --> 00:20:40.237
Get into this stuff.
00:20:40.237 --> 00:20:41.705
Ephesians 4 says this, it's incredible.
00:20:41.705 --> 00:20:44.474
It's exactly what happened to me.
00:20:44.474 --> 00:20:46.409
It says, "from the head," meaning jesus, "the whole body,"
00:20:46.409 --> 00:20:49.913
So that's our closest relationships, the body of
00:20:49.913 --> 00:20:53.350
Christ, "knitted together from the ligaments and sinews," as
00:20:53.350 --> 00:20:59.356
We're connected together, "heals itself as each part does its
00:20:59.356 --> 00:21:04.661
Work," each part of the body.
00:21:04.661 --> 00:21:07.797
So just like when you have an infection, part of the body is
00:21:07.797 --> 00:21:10.066
Gonna take out the the bad stuff and send it through the kidneys,
00:21:10.066 --> 00:21:13.270
And then the heart's gotta pump the, you know, oxygenated blood,
00:21:13.270 --> 00:21:16.306
And then the immune system's gotta--well, god put me in some
00:21:16.306 --> 00:21:20.744
Healing relationships and settings and processes where
00:21:20.744 --> 00:21:25.181
Everything in the new testament that it talks about, uncovering
00:21:25.181 --> 00:21:28.818
What's in the darkness and bringing it to the light, be it*
00:21:28.818 --> 00:21:31.254
Strengthening the arms that are feeble and the knees are weak,
00:21:31.254 --> 00:21:33.657
Learning new skills, learning how to communicate, learning how
00:21:33.657 --> 00:21:36.560
To forgive, learning how to listen, taking risks and growing
00:21:36.560 --> 00:21:40.697
Strengths, having trauma healed that has to come out like
00:21:40.697 --> 00:21:44.668
A wound.
00:21:44.668 --> 00:21:46.002
But it was through--and 1 peter 4:10 says this, that when people
00:21:46.002 --> 00:21:51.675
Are using their gifts with you, they are administering the grace
00:21:51.675 --> 00:21:56.947
Of god in its various forms.
00:21:56.947 --> 00:21:59.616
And when i had people confronting me, crying with me,
00:21:59.616 --> 00:22:02.552
Healing me, all this and--you know, a really good psychiatrist
00:22:02.552 --> 00:22:09.159
At that point that i saw that was in the initial stages, when
00:22:09.159 --> 00:22:13.363
They were using their gifts to do the things the new testament
00:22:13.363 --> 00:22:16.232
Says, i found out, wow, not only is god real, what he says in
00:22:16.232 --> 00:22:20.337
This bible is true.
00:22:20.337 --> 00:22:22.639
And it's just--it was just amazing.
00:22:22.639 --> 00:22:25.542
And then in the book i talk about several other miracles
00:22:25.542 --> 00:22:29.546
Unrelated to me that show how god guides and protects and
00:22:29.546 --> 00:22:34.751
Provides, and he's incredible.
00:22:34.751 --> 00:22:38.221
Kirk: that's awesome. he is incredible.
00:22:38.221 --> 00:22:39.556
He's the great physician.
00:22:39.556 --> 00:22:40.890
He knows how to heal in
00:22:40.890 --> 00:22:42.359
His perfect timing and in his perfect way.
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.027
Dr. cloud: he does not own a watch, i'll tell you that.
00:22:44.027 --> 00:22:46.396
Kirk: he what?
00:22:46.396 --> 00:22:47.731
Dr. cloud: he doesn't own a watch.
00:22:47.731 --> 00:22:49.099
Because i'm going, "where are you, god?"
00:22:49.099 --> 00:22:50.533
He's not--
00:22:50.533 --> 00:22:51.868
Kirk: and how wonderful that he heals through a process that
00:22:51.868 --> 00:22:56.039
Actually knits friends together, brothers and sisters in the body
00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.110
Together, and we're actually healing each other through the
00:23:00.110 --> 00:23:04.047
Power of god.
00:23:04.047 --> 00:23:05.382
How did that experience shape your career as a psychologist?
00:23:05.382 --> 00:23:12.555
Dr. cloud: well, it's interesting.
00:23:12.555 --> 00:23:13.923
When i, you know, i--when i came to faith i really
00:23:13.923 --> 00:23:16.426
Loved theology.
00:23:16.426 --> 00:23:17.794
When i first came to faith i was really--and i thought at that
00:23:17.794 --> 00:23:21.831
Point, i think i want to become a pastor, because that's what
00:23:21.831 --> 00:23:24.934
"ministry" was, right?
00:23:24.934 --> 00:23:26.736
And then god--very specifically, i was a accounting and finance
00:23:26.736 --> 00:23:30.874
Major, "change your major, go into psychology."
00:23:30.874 --> 00:23:35.245
I didn't know anything about it.
00:23:35.245 --> 00:23:36.913
I mean, i never had thought about that, really.
00:23:36.913 --> 00:23:39.015
Changed my major, i do this, i go through--and at that time,
00:23:39.015 --> 00:23:42.786
The christian models of dealing with emotional problems, kind of
00:23:42.786 --> 00:23:47.057
Four of them.
00:23:47.057 --> 00:23:48.391
You know, well, it must be because of sin.
00:23:48.391 --> 00:23:50.093
There's been sin in your life if you're suffering.
00:23:50.093 --> 00:23:52.028
Well, that didn't work for job.
00:23:52.028 --> 00:23:53.930
I mean, he didn't do anything to cause this, right?
00:23:53.930 --> 00:23:56.232
Or people that are molested or abused, wasn't their sin.
00:23:56.232 --> 00:24:00.070
Second was the truth model.
00:24:00.070 --> 00:24:02.105
You know, if you get enough--memorize the bible and
00:24:02.105 --> 00:24:04.474
You just stay in the word, it's gonna heal you or
00:24:04.474 --> 00:24:06.643
The--obviously, there's truth in that, but the bible itself says
00:24:06.643 --> 00:24:11.748
Don't just be hearers, you gotta be doers.
00:24:11.748 --> 00:24:13.817
That's where not getting into these processes, healing
00:24:13.817 --> 00:24:17.320
Processes, the bible talks about, that fell short.
00:24:17.320 --> 00:24:20.190
And then there's the demon under every bush, where the depressed
00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:22.625
Must be demonic, or you gotta have some sort of
00:24:22.625 --> 00:24:25.195
Spiritual experience.
00:24:25.195 --> 00:24:27.530
And i got disillusioned when i first went into the field, that
00:24:27.530 --> 00:24:32.368
The christian ways weren't working for a lot people.
00:24:32.368 --> 00:24:37.006
Kirk: like, a lot of hocus pocus, or just not--
00:24:37.006 --> 00:24:39.008
Dr. cloud: yeah, it's shallow.
00:24:39.008 --> 00:24:40.343
I mean, there's truth in all of that, but it was shallow.
00:24:40.343 --> 00:24:44.214
And i spent a year working in a christian psychiatric hospital
00:24:44.214 --> 00:24:47.817
Before i went to my formal training, and i just saw a lot
00:24:47.817 --> 00:24:51.755
Of this stuff falling short, and i got--god, you called me in
00:24:51.755 --> 00:24:55.825
This field, now i don't even believe in it.
00:24:55.825 --> 00:24:58.695
And he said, "keep going."
00:24:58.695 --> 00:25:01.030
And so i went for further training and i started seeing
00:25:01.030 --> 00:25:05.068
What i'd gone into the field to see, depressed people become
00:25:05.068 --> 00:25:07.804
People who no longer got depressed, eating disorders who
00:25:07.804 --> 00:25:10.774
Became people who had normal relationships with food.
00:25:10.774 --> 00:25:13.376
You know, panic attacks, all this stuff.
00:25:13.376 --> 00:25:14.944
People actually working through things and becoming whole.
00:25:14.944 --> 00:25:18.681
But it wasn't those little christian models that was
00:25:18.681 --> 00:25:21.584
Doing it.
00:25:21.584 --> 00:25:22.919
And i thought, well, wait a minute, i wanna be a
00:25:22.919 --> 00:25:25.121
Christian psychologist.
00:25:25.121 --> 00:25:27.924
But then i thought, but i want to be an effective psychologist.
00:25:27.924 --> 00:25:30.927
And i knew what was helping people.
00:25:30.927 --> 00:25:32.562
Now, certainly, you know, the bible and prayer
00:25:32.562 --> 00:25:34.430
And--it's--of course.
00:25:34.430 --> 00:25:37.066
And so at that point, would-- having years of experience, i
00:25:37.066 --> 00:25:42.772
Dropped out of life, basically, for two years.
00:25:42.772 --> 00:25:47.544
Now, i was still working and i said, "i'm gonna put everything
00:25:47.544 --> 00:25:51.214
Aside and i'm just gonna study the bible, take all of this
00:25:51.214 --> 00:25:56.820
Noise out of my head."
00:25:56.820 --> 00:25:59.122
And i went and read the scriptures.
00:25:59.122 --> 00:26:01.825
And, kirk, i always say, i was born again again because
00:26:01.825 --> 00:26:05.728
Everything that i saw and knew that was really healing people
00:26:05.728 --> 00:26:11.634
Was right there in the bible, and all of these processes we're
00:26:11.634 --> 00:26:17.473
Actually prescribed to be doing.
00:26:17.473 --> 00:26:21.678
And i felt at home again.
00:26:21.678 --> 00:26:23.746
I was like, i can be a good clinician and a bible-believing
00:26:23.746 --> 00:26:30.320
Person of faith.
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:32.355
Kirk: i'm so glad that you did that, and that encourages me
00:26:32.355 --> 00:26:34.791
And, i think, everybody who's listening.
00:26:34.791 --> 00:26:37.794
To believe by faith the scriptures, that they're going
00:26:37.794 --> 00:26:40.230
To work, is what moves me to do what god says, because i
00:26:40.230 --> 00:26:46.569
Trust him, i trust the authority of his word.
00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:48.905
And then when we see the fruit of that being so healing, so
00:26:48.905 --> 00:26:53.476
Positive, so good, it just confirms that we--our trust in
00:26:53.476 --> 00:26:58.314
God and his word is so good.
00:26:58.314 --> 00:27:00.516
And then when these other people get a hold of the same
00:27:00.516 --> 00:27:03.152
Principles, which you sort of were looking at
00:27:03.152 --> 00:27:06.489
First, going, "well, i
00:27:06.489 --> 00:27:07.824
Don't wanna do the christian stuff 'cause it's not working.
00:27:07.824 --> 00:27:09.158
I wanna do this other stuff that actually works," i find out
00:27:09.158 --> 00:27:11.761
That, wait a minute, what you actually did was you stumbled
00:27:11.761 --> 00:27:14.564
Across the fruit of the principles that are in the
00:27:14.564 --> 00:27:16.666
Scriptures and have been there all along.
00:27:16.666 --> 00:27:19.836
And that people aren't doing, and that the secular folks are
00:27:19.836 --> 00:27:23.506
Sort of not even knowing the source of those principles, they
00:27:23.506 --> 00:27:27.310
Just know, practically, how it's working out.
00:27:27.310 --> 00:27:29.545
Dr. cloud: i will never forget, one time this guy came to me and
00:27:29.545 --> 00:27:31.614
Said, "well, i'm here because my son, you know, he's acting out.
00:27:31.614 --> 00:27:35.051
He has all these, you know, rebellious teenager."
00:27:35.051 --> 00:27:37.954
And i said, "well, have you sought help for it?"
00:27:37.954 --> 00:27:40.056
He said, "yeah, i went to the psychologist.
00:27:40.056 --> 00:27:41.658
He was one of those secular--he wasn't no--i want somebody who
00:27:41.658 --> 00:27:43.726
Uses the bible."
00:27:43.726 --> 00:27:45.895
And i said, "well, i use the bible, i believe in it.
00:27:45.895 --> 00:27:48.197
But what the psychologist tell you?"
00:27:48.197 --> 00:27:50.767
He said, "well, he tried to tell me--he said the kid's
00:27:50.767 --> 00:27:53.169
Rebellious, he's a teenager, rebelling against authority.
00:27:53.169 --> 00:27:56.105
He said it was my anger that was the problem.
00:27:56.105 --> 00:27:59.676
But i wanted him to use the bible."
00:27:59.676 --> 00:28:01.811
I said, "all right, let's do that."
00:28:01.811 --> 00:28:03.279
I turned to ephesians--colossians says,
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.882
"fathers, not provoke your children to wrath and do not
00:28:05.882 --> 00:28:09.118
Dishearten them with your harshness."
00:28:09.118 --> 00:28:11.821
I said, "if he had given you the address of god's truth, would
00:28:11.821 --> 00:28:15.825
You have thought, then, it was true?"
00:28:15.825 --> 00:28:18.094
You better start not just being hearers of the word, but doers
00:28:18.094 --> 00:28:22.198
Of the word.
00:28:22.198 --> 00:28:24.367
And it's like, you know, there are a lot of people that quote
00:28:24.367 --> 00:28:28.304
Scripture that aren't doing what the bible says.
00:28:28.304 --> 00:28:30.673
And that was one of my objections to faith, because,
00:28:30.673 --> 00:28:35.511
You know, as i said, i liked god, i just thought his friends
00:28:35.511 --> 00:28:38.247
Were weird.
00:28:38.247 --> 00:28:39.582
And god, if this is true, i mean, people get abused in
00:28:39.582 --> 00:28:44.320
The church.
00:28:44.320 --> 00:28:45.655
A lot of people have been hurt in church, or they've had some
00:28:45.655 --> 00:28:48.658
Christian that's, you know, been toxic or abusive or whatever,
00:28:48.658 --> 00:28:53.997
And they're quoting scripture while they're doing it.
00:28:53.997 --> 00:28:56.866
I went back to the bible.
00:28:56.866 --> 00:28:58.935
Jesus promised us that will happen.
00:28:58.935 --> 00:29:02.672
He says--they say, "why don't you take these bad people out?"
00:29:02.672 --> 00:29:05.208
"well, i gotta let the bad ones grow up at the same field with
00:29:05.208 --> 00:29:07.977
The good ones, or i have to wipe them all out.
00:29:07.977 --> 00:29:10.146
In the end, i'll separate it, but be on guard against
00:29:10.146 --> 00:29:13.516
These people."
00:29:13.516 --> 00:29:14.884
And he told us to have boundaries against these wackos
00:29:14.884 --> 00:29:19.655
Who might be wearing a choir robe, but they're hurting you.
00:29:19.655 --> 00:29:23.126
They might be quoting scripture, but they're hurting--it was all
00:29:23.126 --> 00:29:26.329
In the scriptures.
00:29:26.329 --> 00:29:27.697
He promised--that way, i didn't need to feel disappointed by
00:29:27.697 --> 00:29:31.834
Christians anymore because he says, "you'll know them by their
00:29:31.834 --> 00:29:36.105
Fruits," and they were masqueraders.
00:29:36.105 --> 00:29:38.574
So i can't blame jesus for those guys, and that really helped.
00:29:38.574 --> 00:29:42.779
Kirk: that's so great, so good.
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:44.814
Dr. cloud, i wanna talk more about your faith story.
00:29:44.814 --> 00:29:47.884
I wanna talk about the questions that came up and why you felt
00:29:47.884 --> 00:29:51.220
Compelled to write this book.
00:29:51.220 --> 00:29:53.256
Faith questions, we all have them.
00:29:53.256 --> 00:29:55.491
What were dr. cloud's and what were the answers he found?
00:29:55.491 --> 00:29:58.694
Let's talk about it in just a moment right after this.
00:29:58.694 --> 00:30:01.497
♪♪♪
00:30:01.497 --> 00:30:06.035
♪♪♪
00:30:06.232 --> 00:30:10.303
Kirk: we're back with dr. henry cloud and we're ready
00:30:13.739 --> 00:30:15.541
To talk faith questions.
00:30:15.541 --> 00:30:17.977
So you had described some of the questions that you were asking
00:30:17.977 --> 00:30:21.547
And the conversations that you would have with god when you
00:30:21.547 --> 00:30:23.983
Were younger, and then slipped into this depression because of
00:30:23.983 --> 00:30:29.255
Loss of dreams and your hand and the things that were going on.
00:30:29.255 --> 00:30:32.358
Did you continue to ask god questions as you grew
00:30:32.358 --> 00:30:35.962
Into adulthood?
00:30:35.962 --> 00:30:37.363
And what were some of those bigger questions that you began
00:30:37.363 --> 00:30:40.533
To ask?
00:30:40.533 --> 00:30:42.134
Dr. cloud: well, in the very beginning was when the big pile
00:30:42.134 --> 00:30:46.238
Of questions came 'cause i was in college and i was around all
00:30:46.238 --> 00:30:49.775
These professors and smart people.
00:30:49.775 --> 00:30:51.911
They were telling me science has disproven the bible and, you
00:30:51.911 --> 00:30:55.314
Know, philosophical questions.
00:30:55.314 --> 00:30:56.649
"if god's good and all-powerful and loving, why all
00:30:56.649 --> 00:30:59.185
The suffering?"
00:30:59.185 --> 00:31:00.519
And why, you know, the bad christians.
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.522
And those were real dilemmas, but i couldn't go back, so then
00:31:03.522 --> 00:31:10.563
I started to ask him.
00:31:10.563 --> 00:31:12.865
And i think this was one of the first things that started to
00:31:12.865 --> 00:31:15.735
Give me confidence in god really answering our questions, was
00:31:15.735 --> 00:31:21.574
Every time i would pray, i wouldn't--somebody'd call and
00:31:21.574 --> 00:31:24.143
Say, "hey, god just told me to tell you this."
00:31:24.143 --> 00:31:26.379
But soon thereafter, an answer would come to that.
00:31:26.379 --> 00:31:31.150
I'd find an article, i'd hear a lecture.
00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:33.753
I just had to keep seeking.
00:31:33.753 --> 00:31:35.554
And so i said, "i'm gonna go deep into this stuff," and i
00:31:35.554 --> 00:31:38.524
Spent a couple of years pretty deep into all of the
00:31:38.524 --> 00:31:44.263
Apologetics world.
00:31:44.263 --> 00:31:46.565
And you know, cell biology, astronomy, cosmology, you know,
00:31:46.565 --> 00:31:51.270
Physics, archaeology, all of that.
00:31:51.270 --> 00:31:56.475
And i found that this is not an iq test.
00:31:56.475 --> 00:32:02.114
If you have an iq, you don't believe, if you're dumb, you
00:32:02.114 --> 00:32:04.483
Do believe.
00:32:04.483 --> 00:32:05.851
It's not an iq test at all.
00:32:05.851 --> 00:32:08.587
There's--all of science validates faith.
00:32:08.587 --> 00:32:15.094
But if you believe that there can't be such thing as a god who
00:32:15.094 --> 00:32:21.233
Did this, then you've got to have another step of faith.
00:32:21.233 --> 00:32:26.505
Well, then it must have just happened.
00:32:26.505 --> 00:32:29.275
And then they have theories of how it must have just happened.
00:32:29.275 --> 00:32:32.611
But when you get deep into the science, what i found was the
00:32:32.611 --> 00:32:36.782
Greatest scientists in the world, you've got some of faith
00:32:36.782 --> 00:32:40.586
And some of them not of faith, looking at the same evidence.
00:32:40.586 --> 00:32:43.656
But when you have people like sir francis collins that
00:32:43.656 --> 00:32:46.258
Unraveled the dna chain, the human dna code and all this big
00:32:46.258 --> 00:32:53.099
Project, he was an atheist and it was the science of studying
00:32:53.099 --> 00:32:57.903
Dna that made him become a christian.
00:32:57.903 --> 00:33:00.940
And there are countless stories of these and there's a lot of
00:33:00.940 --> 00:33:03.442
People that write about it.
00:33:03.442 --> 00:33:04.777
So, i do a deep dive in all that stuff.
00:33:04.777 --> 00:33:06.879
But there was one area of science that i can claim
00:33:06.879 --> 00:33:10.883
Expertise in.
00:33:10.883 --> 00:33:12.518
And i don't mean to sound weird but, i mean, i have an earned
00:33:12.518 --> 00:33:15.254
Doctorate in it, i've had decades of clinical experience
00:33:15.254 --> 00:33:18.624
And continuing ed and all that.
00:33:18.624 --> 00:33:20.926
I can talk about psychology and i can tell you what the science
00:33:20.926 --> 00:33:23.496
Says, evidence-based science.
00:33:23.496 --> 00:33:28.134
When i went back to the scriptures, i was amazed at how
00:33:28.134 --> 00:33:35.174
Everything the science of psychology talks about that
00:33:35.174 --> 00:33:40.179
Makes us well, makes us sick, the processes of how to get well
00:33:40.179 --> 00:33:44.583
When we do have mental health issues, that's exactly what the
00:33:44.583 --> 00:33:49.822
Bible said.
00:33:49.822 --> 00:33:51.223
You know, we have ideals that life should be like this, but
00:33:51.223 --> 00:33:54.160
It isn't.
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:55.528
It's imperfect.
00:33:55.528 --> 00:33:56.862
We have losses, we have trauma, we have pain, we have failure,
00:33:56.862 --> 00:33:59.698
We have mistakes, we need to be forgiven, but we also need to be
00:33:59.698 --> 00:34:03.435
Healed of all of that.
00:34:03.435 --> 00:34:04.970
Good therapy, what does it do?
00:34:04.970 --> 00:34:07.339
It--what does the bible say?
00:34:07.339 --> 00:34:08.674
You bring what's in the darkness to the light, we heal the
00:34:08.674 --> 00:34:11.544
Brokenhearted, we weep with those who weep, we help the
00:34:11.544 --> 00:34:15.347
Weak, we learn these skills.
00:34:15.347 --> 00:34:17.249
James 5:16: "confess your faults to one another."
00:34:17.249 --> 00:34:20.186
Why?
00:34:20.186 --> 00:34:21.554
So that you can be forgiven? that's not what it says.
00:34:21.554 --> 00:34:23.055
"so that you may be healed."
00:34:23.055 --> 00:34:25.591
And everything that happens when you do really good therapy,
00:34:25.591 --> 00:34:29.562
They're processes the scripture talks about.
00:34:29.562 --> 00:34:32.298
And then there's a couple more issues like that.
00:34:32.298 --> 00:34:33.899
But on--i mean, i chronicle them all in the book, but it's--you
00:34:33.899 --> 00:34:38.737
Know, when you learn what david said, "thy word is a lamp unto
00:34:38.737 --> 00:34:46.212
My feet," it changes your whole world.
00:34:46.212 --> 00:34:53.352
Now, that doesn't mean that we don't need counselors
00:34:53.352 --> 00:34:57.456
And psychologists.
00:34:57.456 --> 00:34:58.791
The bible gives us clear financial principles, but
00:34:58.791 --> 00:35:01.727
Sometimes we're in such a mess you need to go to a cpa who goes
00:35:01.727 --> 00:35:06.298
Down deep and stays down long to unravel this mess using
00:35:06.298 --> 00:35:10.102
The principles.
00:35:10.102 --> 00:35:11.437
We need counselors, we need psychologists, we need
00:35:11.437 --> 00:35:13.205
Psychiatrists, you know, for the medical parts of it.
00:35:13.205 --> 00:35:15.941
But churches and small groups and good relationships, there's
00:35:15.941 --> 00:35:21.447
A lot of healing that can take place there too.
00:35:21.447 --> 00:35:24.250
And i just want god to get the credit for all of the stuff that
00:35:24.250 --> 00:35:29.088
Works because it's his ways.
00:35:29.088 --> 00:35:31.690
And i'll say one more thing about that.
00:35:31.690 --> 00:35:33.926
You hear a lot of christians say, one, "you shall know the
00:35:33.926 --> 00:35:36.328
Truth, and the truth shall set you free."
00:35:36.328 --> 00:35:38.931
And so they think, i just got to study the bible enough and--you
00:35:38.931 --> 00:35:42.268
Know, which is true.
00:35:42.268 --> 00:35:43.936
I just said all of that, but they never quote the
00:35:43.936 --> 00:35:47.606
Whole passage.
00:35:47.606 --> 00:35:49.341
And i've asked audiences, what does it say right before that?
00:35:49.341 --> 00:35:52.645
'cause they think they're gonna know the truth and the truth's
00:35:52.645 --> 00:35:54.913
Gonna do it.
00:35:54.913 --> 00:35:56.248
What does it say right before that?
00:35:56.248 --> 00:35:57.983
Here's what jesus said.
00:35:57.983 --> 00:35:59.618
"if you hold to my teachings, then you are truly my disciples.
00:35:59.618 --> 00:36:05.491
Then you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set
00:36:05.491 --> 00:36:09.495
You free."
00:36:09.495 --> 00:36:11.897
We've got to know his truth, but we've got to do these things his
00:36:11.897 --> 00:36:15.768
Truth talks about.
00:36:15.768 --> 00:36:17.870
And then you go, oh my gosh, that's true, i know it now.
00:36:17.870 --> 00:36:21.273
Know it not just in my brain but know it like abraham
00:36:21.273 --> 00:36:24.310
Knew sarah.
00:36:24.310 --> 00:36:25.644
This is an experiential, full knowledge, and we're set free by
00:36:25.644 --> 00:36:32.017
These ways and by his interventions and by his spirit
00:36:32.017 --> 00:36:35.554
And by miracles.
00:36:35.554 --> 00:36:36.889
But it's the whole banana.
00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:39.091
We can't just eat part of the peel and think we're gonna get
00:36:39.091 --> 00:36:42.261
The potassium.
00:36:42.261 --> 00:36:43.595
Kirk: yeah, yeah.
00:36:43.595 --> 00:36:46.031
What would you say, dr. cloud, to people who struggle with
00:36:46.031 --> 00:36:49.268
Embracing christianity because of the christians that have
00:36:49.268 --> 00:36:52.838
Hurt them?
00:36:52.838 --> 00:36:55.974
Dr. cloud: well, first of all, i would say: i am so sorry.
00:36:55.974 --> 00:37:02.648
I mean, i believe you and i'm sorry you went through that, and
00:37:02.648 --> 00:37:06.852
I'd love to hear more about it because i hate it when
00:37:06.852 --> 00:37:09.688
That happens.
00:37:09.688 --> 00:37:12.324
What did you not like that they did?
00:37:12.324 --> 00:37:15.828
And you know, that's an important question 'cause we're
00:37:15.828 --> 00:37:18.964
Not gonna argue this philosophically.
00:37:18.964 --> 00:37:21.133
I wanna know your story.
00:37:21.133 --> 00:37:22.668
What'd they do to you?
00:37:22.668 --> 00:37:25.037
And you're gonna hear things, like, "they're so judgmental."
00:37:25.037 --> 00:37:29.975
I say, "well, how--what did you not like about that?
00:37:29.975 --> 00:37:32.978
And what--how is that painful for you?"
00:37:32.978 --> 00:37:34.913
And they'll tell you, and then you ask them more and they say,
00:37:34.913 --> 00:37:40.452
"well, they abandoned me," or, "they oppressed me," or whatever
00:37:40.452 --> 00:37:43.489
Their story is.
00:37:43.489 --> 00:37:45.224
And i wanna hear their story.
00:37:45.224 --> 00:37:48.327
And then in that process, and after that, what i learned that
00:37:48.327 --> 00:37:53.699
I started saying to them was, "so you don't like any of that
00:37:53.699 --> 00:37:56.935
Stuff, right?"
00:37:56.935 --> 00:37:58.303
And they go, "no, i hate that stuff."
00:37:58.303 --> 00:37:59.638
I go, "because you are agreeing with jesus.
00:37:59.638 --> 00:38:04.576
You're saying exactly what he said about those people."
00:38:04.576 --> 00:38:08.447
He told them to judge not, lest you're gonna get judged.
00:38:08.447 --> 00:38:12.885
He said if you oppress people, if you hurt people, it's better
00:38:12.885 --> 00:38:16.121
If you get a big, what, anchor tied to your ankle and thrown
00:38:16.121 --> 00:38:19.258
You in the ocean.
00:38:19.258 --> 00:38:20.592
You will answer, "he agreed with you."
00:38:20.592 --> 00:38:24.596
So, you've probably been to a bad doctor?
00:38:24.596 --> 00:38:29.001
Don't blow off all doctors.
00:38:29.001 --> 00:38:32.504
You've been to a bad church?
00:38:32.504 --> 00:38:34.373
There are good ones. i'll help you find one.
00:38:34.373 --> 00:38:37.075
But don't judge jesus or christianity by some bad apples
00:38:37.075 --> 00:38:44.616
'cause he didn't like them either and he agrees with you.
00:38:44.616 --> 00:38:48.187
Kirk: yeah, mmm, well, i'm gonna remember that.
00:38:48.187 --> 00:38:51.857
I'm gonna remember that.
00:38:51.857 --> 00:38:53.225
I wanna talk about your discoveries about miracles,
00:38:53.225 --> 00:38:56.662
Evil, and suffering.
00:38:56.662 --> 00:38:59.364
What about those things?
00:38:59.364 --> 00:39:00.699
What about the problem of suffering, evil, injustice, and
00:39:00.699 --> 00:39:04.837
How does a christian clinical psychologist wrestle with all of
00:39:04.837 --> 00:39:08.440
Those things in the context of god's love and power?
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:11.944
We're gonna ask dr. cloud these questions right after this.
00:39:11.944 --> 00:39:15.347
♪♪♪
00:39:15.347 --> 00:39:19.685
♪♪♪
00:39:19.685 --> 00:39:23.778
Kirk: we're back with dr. henry cloud.
00:39:27.182 --> 00:39:29.885
Dr. cloud, you're dealing with people with some serious
00:39:29.885 --> 00:39:32.654
Problems, mental health issues, ptsd, schizophrenia, injury and
00:39:32.654 --> 00:39:37.859
Wounds from relational situations.
00:39:37.859 --> 00:39:41.796
You also believe in a god of miracles.
00:39:41.796 --> 00:39:43.865
How do you reconcile serious mental health issues with a god
00:39:43.865 --> 00:39:50.438
Who is all-powerful, but doesn't always heal people and people
00:39:50.438 --> 00:39:54.442
Are in therapy for years and years and years and years?
00:39:54.442 --> 00:39:56.745
Dr. cloud: yeah, well, it, to me, is the biggest problem.
00:39:56.745 --> 00:40:00.315
I mean, you know, there are a lot of problems or obstacles we
00:40:00.315 --> 00:40:02.784
Have to come to faith, and that was the hardest one for me.
00:40:02.784 --> 00:40:10.825
Why does god let people suffer sometimes?
00:40:10.825 --> 00:40:14.095
Now, it even gets harder--i mean, it'd kind of be easier if
00:40:14.095 --> 00:40:18.600
You were an atheist, right?
00:40:18.600 --> 00:40:19.968
You know, because it is, right?
00:40:19.968 --> 00:40:23.605
But when you're a christian, you also know that he does heal at
00:40:23.605 --> 00:40:28.009
Times, and heals a lot.
00:40:28.009 --> 00:40:31.179
I mean, if you start really studying the science of healing,
00:40:31.179 --> 00:40:35.717
The research that's been done, phds that have done
00:40:35.717 --> 00:40:39.588
Dissertations and books on documented medical healings and
00:40:39.588 --> 00:40:44.759
All this stuff that actually still occurs today, but then
00:40:44.759 --> 00:40:48.630
There's somebody else that doesn't get healed.
00:40:48.630 --> 00:40:51.533
And that was a really, really hard one for me.
00:40:51.533 --> 00:40:54.636
Now, in the big picture, we can't do it all in a couple of
00:40:54.636 --> 00:40:57.339
Minutes, but the big picture of why does evil exists and
00:40:57.339 --> 00:41:02.210
Suffering exists?
00:41:02.210 --> 00:41:04.079
This is a paradox, but it's because of god's love.
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:08.717
God created humans because he wanted a love relationship, and
00:41:08.717 --> 00:41:13.755
The only way to have a love relationship is to set somebody
00:41:13.755 --> 00:41:16.925
Free to not love you.
00:41:16.925 --> 00:41:19.561
You know, he could have made robots, but if you've ever been
00:41:19.561 --> 00:41:22.030
In a relationship where somebody is manipulating you to give to
00:41:22.030 --> 00:41:25.867
Them or to be with them through guilt or fear, that's not love.
00:41:25.867 --> 00:41:33.275
So he actually, because he wanted love, he set us free.
00:41:33.275 --> 00:41:39.481
And that was risky, and we chose against him.
00:41:39.481 --> 00:41:42.617
And just like, you know, we tell our kids, "i'm gonna set you
00:41:42.617 --> 00:41:45.353
Free to go play, but don't hurt each other," sometimes they did.
00:41:45.353 --> 00:41:51.326
And you go, "well, if you knew that was gonna happen, why did
00:41:51.326 --> 00:41:55.397
He let it--why did he even make us if he knew it was
00:41:55.397 --> 00:41:58.933
Gonna happen?"
00:41:58.933 --> 00:42:00.502
It was the only way he could have humans that could love,
00:42:00.502 --> 00:42:05.740
Could love him, and he could love freely.
00:42:05.740 --> 00:42:09.244
But it's not all bad 'cause he also, even before he knew what
00:42:09.244 --> 00:42:14.983
Was happening, he already had plan b.
00:42:14.983 --> 00:42:18.420
Right in genesis 3 when the world chooses against
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:21.122
Him and evil enters the world is his first prophecy: "i will
00:42:21.122 --> 00:42:28.129
Send someone to fix this."
00:42:28.129 --> 00:42:30.598
First prophecy of jesus is in genesis 3.
00:42:30.598 --> 00:42:36.137
And then after it goes bad, he says, "i'm gonna send
00:42:36.137 --> 00:42:40.475
Somebody and you will be able to freely choose again
00:42:40.475 --> 00:42:45.580
Whether you wanna come to me, where there
00:42:45.580 --> 00:42:48.049
Won't be suffering one day."
00:42:48.049 --> 00:42:50.518
Now, the problem is there's a gap that hasn't all been
00:42:50.518 --> 00:42:55.123
Resolved, and this is what i say in the book, that there are a
00:42:55.123 --> 00:42:58.860
Lot of explanations for, you know, sometimes god brings good
00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:02.530
Out of this and all that.
00:43:02.530 --> 00:43:03.898
But that falls short, you know, if you've been sinned against
00:43:03.898 --> 00:43:06.301
Him deeply, suffering because of cancer or abuse or whatever, and
00:43:06.301 --> 00:43:11.840
You're in that time where it's still going on, you're crying
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:14.576
Out to god.
00:43:14.576 --> 00:43:16.444
This is the hardest one.
00:43:16.444 --> 00:43:18.480
Job said it, jesus said it.
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:22.250
Two great examples of suffering where god isn't doing anything
00:43:22.250 --> 00:43:26.988
About it in the midst of it.
00:43:26.988 --> 00:43:30.658
God's answer to job was, basically, "you
00:43:30.658 --> 00:43:36.731
Can't understand.
00:43:36.731 --> 00:43:40.135
You won't be able to understand.
00:43:40.135 --> 00:43:41.870
My thoughts are above your thoughts."
00:43:41.870 --> 00:43:45.673
And job said, "but though he slay me, i have to trust him,"
00:43:45.673 --> 00:43:49.577
And he trusted that god knew something about why all this
00:43:49.577 --> 00:43:53.248
Time is going on that i don't know, and he's the only one i
00:43:53.248 --> 00:43:57.419
Can turn to.
00:43:57.419 --> 00:43:59.020
And then jesus said, the man, when he was going through it,
00:43:59.020 --> 00:44:03.124
Said exactly what we say when we suffer and god's not do
00:44:03.124 --> 00:44:06.795
Anything, "why hast thou forsaken me?"
00:44:06.795 --> 00:44:11.766
That's what jesus said.
00:44:11.766 --> 00:44:13.802
And there's--god doesn't give us that answer other than,
00:44:13.802 --> 00:44:19.274
"trust me."
00:44:19.274 --> 00:44:20.608
Well, how can i trust you?
00:44:20.608 --> 00:44:21.976
"'cause i came and went through the suffering.
00:44:21.976 --> 00:44:25.847
I died for you."
00:44:25.847 --> 00:44:27.182
So ultimately, i hope everybody gets healed.
00:44:27.182 --> 00:44:31.953
Sometimes we do, many times we do, many times we don't.
00:44:31.953 --> 00:44:35.824
But ultimately, we're trusting somebody who has proven that he
00:44:35.824 --> 00:44:43.631
Loves us and he'll suffer for us.
00:44:43.631 --> 00:44:47.168
And it's hard to trust, but that's what faith is, even when
00:44:47.168 --> 00:44:51.739
We're not getting an answer.
00:44:51.739 --> 00:44:53.608
I don't like that answer, but i know enough to not have what i
00:44:53.608 --> 00:45:00.782
Don't know derail what i do know.
00:45:00.782 --> 00:45:05.019
And i do know he's real.
00:45:05.019 --> 00:45:06.821
I do know he heals.
00:45:06.821 --> 00:45:08.189
I do know he loves me.
00:45:08.189 --> 00:45:10.091
I don't know why he's not doing it right now, but i can't let
00:45:10.091 --> 00:45:14.395
What i don't know derail what i do know.
00:45:14.395 --> 00:45:19.133
Kirk: you know, i like that answer because i think that's
00:45:19.133 --> 00:45:21.903
Where we have to go.
00:45:21.903 --> 00:45:23.238
Ultimately, we're right back down to the bedrock of faith and
00:45:23.238 --> 00:45:26.975
Trusting him like a little child trusts their father.
00:45:26.975 --> 00:45:30.378
There's just things that my child cannot understand, but
00:45:30.378 --> 00:45:32.814
I love him with all of my heart and
00:45:32.814 --> 00:45:34.148
I'll lay down my life for him.
00:45:34.148 --> 00:45:35.483
And that's what god has done for us.
00:45:35.483 --> 00:45:36.818
That reminds me of a quote that i have always loved by
00:45:36.818 --> 00:45:39.654
Theologian john stott, and he said that he was searching for
00:45:39.654 --> 00:45:44.325
How to believe in a god that seems to be so far away and
00:45:44.325 --> 00:45:49.130
Detached from the pain and suffering and evil in the world,
00:45:49.130 --> 00:45:52.367
That we as people have to go through.
00:45:52.367 --> 00:45:54.469
And he said that he would wander into buddhist temples and he
00:45:54.469 --> 00:45:57.205
Would see the buddha sitting there with this ghost of a smile
00:45:57.205 --> 00:46:01.809
On its face, seemingly detached and happy from all the pain of
00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:06.347
The people who came to worship.
00:46:06.347 --> 00:46:08.950
And he said it didn't ever sit right with him until he walked
00:46:08.950 --> 00:46:13.421
Into a church and he saw that lonely, twisted, tortured man
00:46:13.421 --> 00:46:19.060
Crucified on a cross with his back torn open and the thorns on
00:46:19.060 --> 00:46:24.232
His brow and blood coming down his face, lips dry and parched,
00:46:24.232 --> 00:46:30.204
God-forsaken, left in darkness.
00:46:30.204 --> 00:46:33.508
And he said, "that's the god for me."
00:46:33.508 --> 00:46:37.078
And he said--and to see him like that, to know that god plunged
00:46:37.078 --> 00:46:42.617
Into the very depths of the sea of pain and suffering, helped
00:46:42.617 --> 00:46:48.189
Him to process his own suffering.
00:46:48.189 --> 00:46:52.860
Knowing that in the context of the cross and the crucifixion,
00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:56.731
It helped him to believe that god had a much bigger plan.
00:46:56.731 --> 00:46:59.867
And it was through the suffering of christ that the world could
00:46:59.867 --> 00:47:03.004
Be saved, and perhaps through his suffering there would be
00:47:03.004 --> 00:47:06.741
Something that would bring about good not only in him but maybe
00:47:06.741 --> 00:47:10.144
His family and maybe even the whole world.
00:47:10.144 --> 00:47:11.846
And so he was able to trust.
00:47:11.846 --> 00:47:13.781
And i just--i trust that that's essentially what i hear
00:47:13.781 --> 00:47:17.151
You saying.
00:47:17.151 --> 00:47:18.486
Dr. cloud: it's a hard thing to trust, but this will help: jesus
00:47:18.486 --> 00:47:21.823
Was about to go through that suffering and peter said, "no,
00:47:21.823 --> 00:47:25.660
Lord, not you."
00:47:25.660 --> 00:47:28.162
And jesus said, "get behind me, satan."
00:47:28.162 --> 00:47:32.200
And this is what he said, "for you are putting your interest in
00:47:32.200 --> 00:47:35.670
Man's interests and not god."
00:47:35.670 --> 00:47:38.072
It's always our interest to have all our problems go away, but
00:47:38.072 --> 00:47:44.712
There's something about a process sometimes, it actually
00:47:44.712 --> 00:47:48.950
Does heal us, but there's another thing about a process
00:47:48.950 --> 00:47:52.553
That is no good at all.
00:47:52.553 --> 00:47:55.089
You know, when evil people hurt people and they go through that
00:47:55.089 --> 00:47:58.760
Pain, there's nothing good in that.
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:01.496
God didn't cause that.
00:48:01.496 --> 00:48:04.432
But he says he's with us in it.
00:48:04.432 --> 00:48:06.434
Ultimately, he'll restore it, but he will offer help to us
00:48:06.434 --> 00:48:10.238
Through it when he's not healing us, and that takes faith.
00:48:10.238 --> 00:48:16.411
And there's no easy answer for that, but there is something
00:48:16.411 --> 00:48:21.082
We're called to do.
00:48:21.082 --> 00:48:22.450
We're called to be the answer to people who are in that.
00:48:22.450 --> 00:48:26.421
And as christians, if we're not suffering, we better have our
00:48:26.421 --> 00:48:30.892
Arms and our pocketbooks open all the time to some who are.
00:48:30.892 --> 00:48:37.632
And if we were doing what we're called to do to enter into that
00:48:37.632 --> 00:48:43.971
Suffering, then people would go more often, "god did come to me
00:48:43.971 --> 00:48:49.377
In my suffering," and that's what we're called to do.
00:48:49.377 --> 00:48:52.780
Kirk: so at the end of the day, why did you write this book?
00:48:52.780 --> 00:48:57.085
Why are you telling your friends why you believe?
00:48:57.085 --> 00:48:59.887
What is your hope when they read it?
00:48:59.887 --> 00:49:03.357
Dr. cloud: look, pals.
00:49:03.357 --> 00:49:06.127
I know, i understand there are a thousand reasons to not believe.
00:49:06.127 --> 00:49:15.603
I want you to know why i believe,
00:49:15.603 --> 00:49:20.007
And there is so much of reality
00:49:20.007 --> 00:49:29.050
And proof that he is real.
00:49:29.050 --> 00:49:32.787
I really want you to have a relationship with him.
00:49:32.787 --> 00:49:37.759
I really want you to know there is complete forgiveness for
00:49:37.759 --> 00:49:44.866
Everything you've ever done or ever will do, because one day we
00:49:44.866 --> 00:49:47.902
Will all stand in front of him.
00:49:47.902 --> 00:49:51.706
And as paul said to the people in athens, he will judge the
00:49:51.706 --> 00:49:57.311
World by one man, this man jesus, and he's proven that by
00:49:57.311 --> 00:50:05.119
Raising him from the dead, that he really can give you eternal
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:10.758
Life and forgiveness and abundant life here.
00:50:10.758 --> 00:50:15.530
I want them to know that because i'm like the guy in the gospel.
00:50:15.530 --> 00:50:20.835
Hey, i don't understand it all.
00:50:20.835 --> 00:50:22.937
All i know is i was blind and now i see.
00:50:22.937 --> 00:50:25.873
I was suffering and empty and lost, and his name was jesus who
00:50:25.873 --> 00:50:30.311
Did it.
00:50:30.311 --> 00:50:31.646
So, i don't understand it all, but reach out to him.
00:50:31.646 --> 00:50:34.415
Because if you really reach out and you seek him, he will reveal
00:50:34.415 --> 00:50:38.886
Himself to you in the fashion or form that's right for you.
00:50:38.886 --> 00:50:44.025
Kirk: dr. cloud, thank you so much.
00:50:44.025 --> 00:50:45.827
Dr. cloud: good to be here.
00:50:45.827 --> 00:50:47.228
Kirk: after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:50:47.228 --> 00:50:49.831
♪♪♪
00:50:49.831 --> 00:50:54.202
♪♪♪
00:50:55.046 --> 00:50:59.184
Kirk: welcome back.
00:51:02.620 --> 00:51:03.955
There's nothing like hearing someone's story, right?
00:51:03.955 --> 00:51:06.858
I'm grateful that dr. cloud was willing to share his with us and
00:51:06.858 --> 00:51:10.261
So many great insights from his area of expertise.
00:51:10.261 --> 00:51:14.899
God's grace through people.
00:51:14.899 --> 00:51:17.502
I love dr. cloud's personal testimony of how god used his
00:51:17.502 --> 00:51:21.473
People who administer his grace when he was struggling
00:51:21.473 --> 00:51:25.076
With depression.
00:51:25.076 --> 00:51:26.411
His holistic description of healing was excellent,
00:51:26.411 --> 00:51:29.347
Wasn't it?
00:51:29.347 --> 00:51:31.082
What you know versus what you don't know.
00:51:31.082 --> 00:51:34.152
It was refreshing to me to hear dr. cloud's honesty about all
00:51:34.152 --> 00:51:38.123
The questions he wrestled with in his faith journey.
00:51:38.123 --> 00:51:41.092
And i enjoyed talking with him about all the complexities of
00:51:41.092 --> 00:51:44.062
Creation: our bodies, the dna sequence.
00:51:44.062 --> 00:51:47.198
It's all amazing.
00:51:47.198 --> 00:51:49.067
There's so much information that we have about the truth of god
00:51:49.067 --> 00:51:53.171
And his word that we shouldn't let what we don't know make us
00:51:53.171 --> 00:51:56.808
Question what we do know.
00:51:56.808 --> 00:51:58.643
We will likely not have all our god questions answered on this
00:51:58.643 --> 00:52:02.480
Side of heaven, but we will have all of eternity to ask them when
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:07.152
We see him face to face.
00:52:07.152 --> 00:52:10.221
"i'm sorry."
00:52:10.221 --> 00:52:11.689
These were the compassion-filled words of dr. cloud to those who
00:52:11.689 --> 00:52:15.226
Have been hurt by christians and have a hard time embracing
00:52:15.226 --> 00:52:18.229
Christianity because of it.
00:52:18.229 --> 00:52:20.865
Go back and listen to his full answer.
00:52:20.865 --> 00:52:23.568
Let's meet the people in our own lives with a similar kind of
00:52:23.568 --> 00:52:26.938
Compassionate approach.
00:52:26.938 --> 00:52:28.940
People often don't care what you know until they know that
00:52:28.940 --> 00:52:32.544
You care.
00:52:32.544 --> 00:52:34.546
Well, that's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:34.546 --> 00:52:36.614
Thanks for watching.
00:52:36.614 --> 00:52:37.949
And if you've enjoyed the show, don't forget to set your dvr so
00:52:37.949 --> 00:52:41.352
You never miss an episode.
00:52:41.352 --> 00:52:43.388
And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:43.388 --> 00:52:46.324
Searching for "takeaways" on tbn+, or visit the "kirk cameron
00:52:46.324 --> 00:52:51.396
On tbn" youtube channel.
00:52:51.396 --> 00:52:53.898
We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
00:52:53.898 --> 00:52:57.635
♪♪♪
00:52:57.635 --> 00:53:01.806
♪♪♪
00:53:04.075 --> 00:53:04.075

Henry Cloud: Healed from the Inside Out: A Personal Faith Story | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

December 9, 2024 | 53:25

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