J. Warner Wallace: Convincing Evidence for the Resurrection | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

March 30, 2026 | 53:25

Kirk Cameron is joined by former cold-case detective and Christian apologist J. Warner Wallace on evidential proof of the resurrection and the objections that fail to hold up under close examination.

#Resurrection #Author #Gospel #Salvation #Messiah #Savior #Culture #Faith #Science #Truth #KirkCameron #J.WarnerWallace

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | J. Warner Wallace: Convincing Evidence for the Resurrection | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | March 30, 2026

Kirk cameron: he is risen.
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As believers in jesus, we say this every easter and respond
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With, "he is risen indeed."
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But do you realize how many people don't believe this?
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What do they think happened to jesus's body?
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How else can you explain the eyewitness accounts of his
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Appearance after his death?
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If you became convinced of the evidence of his resurrection,
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Would you be able to take that leap of faith and call him
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Your savior?
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My guest, j. warner wallace, will share the many objections
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To this claim of jesus's resurrection and why they don't
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Stand up to scrutiny.
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J. warner wallace: if i'm gonna determine that christianity is
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True, i know my standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, and
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I'm going to have some unanswered questions.
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But that is true for everything you think you know.
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And the biggest claim of all, really, comes down to this
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Resurrected man.
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Because the promise is not just that he dies for the sins of the
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World, it's that he also promises to us eternal life.
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Kirk: it's all next on "takeaways."
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Kirk: i'm excited to have back with us cold case detective,
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Author, and christian apologist j. warner wallace.
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From his book, "cold case christianity," he's created a
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New booklet focused primarily on the resurrection of jesus.
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It's called "case closed."
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Jay, thanks so much for joining us again.
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Jay: yeah, i'm glad to be with you.
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I'm so privileged, thanks.
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Kirk: you know, i am a novice apologist myself.
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I'm not a cold case homicide detective.
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That's kind of creepy.
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But i'm so glad that you are because you're able to
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Investigate stuff and the most gruesome of evidences to come to
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A conclusion about whodunit.
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Or about, you know, how the whole thing went down.
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And that was so helpful to me as a young atheist, who was
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Investigating the claims of the gospel.
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So, as a recovering atheist yourself, what made you want to
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Excerpt this out of your cold case christianity book?
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Jay: so, i've always kind of felt like everything that we
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Talk about as christians, as believers, and really even as
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Non-believers, is going to be downstream of something bigger,
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Something more foundational.
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And so, for us, i think that we kind of get hung up on all kinds
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Of topics.
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Either they're political, or cultural, or social, but all of
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These things are downstream of one important claim, the
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Resurrection of jesus.
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If that actually happened, it puts jesus in an entirely
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Different category.
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You know, as far as wisdom goes.
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So, i just needed to know as an investigator, is that
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Claim reasonable?
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Is that claim true? did that really happen?
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And so that's why we're focused on just that one issue in
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This booklet.
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Kirk: that's right because if jesus was just another
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Confucius, if he was just another buddha, if he was just
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Another muhammad, then maybe he's a prophet, maybe he's a
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Good moral teacher, or a religious leader, a charismatic,
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You know, trailblazer.
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But if he really rose from the dead, who else has that on
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Their resume?
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Jay: yeah, silly--
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Kirk: that puts him--it validates his claim to be the
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Son of god with power.
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Jay: yeah, yeah, silly us.
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If somebody actually arises from the grave, we have a tendency to
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Pay attention and listen to what he has to say because he's in a
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Different category.
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That's why i think the resurrection is so foundational.
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Kirk: so, when you were an atheist, what were your views
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About jesus?
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So, when you were investigating this, like good man,
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Good teaching--
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Some believe he didn't even exist historically.
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Jay: well, okay, i didn't hold that position, but i was pretty
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Benign, i guess.
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I thought he fell into the category of other ancient
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Wisdom teachers.
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So, i would have said he's in the same category as baha'ullah,
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As buddha, as anyone who had made proverbial
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Wisdom statements.
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Now, i didn't know anything about the new testament.
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In other words, i thought when i opened the new testament for the
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First time at 35 as an investigator, i thought i'm
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Gonna find wisdom statements.
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To find that there's a historical chronology in which
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These claims are being made by people who allegedly were there,
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That's very different.
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That's like an eyewitness account from an old case where
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You have the supplemental reports of detectives who
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Interviewed witnesses.
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Well, luke is kind of like that, right?
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He interviews the eyewitnesses, writes a supplemental report
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Called the gospel of luke.
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I just needed to test it to see if it was true.
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Kirk: now, i'm curious as to why of all the things that you could
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Have pulled out of "cold case christianity," you chose the
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Resurrection for "case closed."
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I mean, you could have talked about the virgin birth.
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I mean, that's pretty miraculous.
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There are all the miracles that jesus did.
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Why did you focus in on the resurrection?
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Jay: well, because i knew for me as a skeptic that was the thing
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That really--i would have said that jesus is this wise, ancient
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1st century teacher, but i would have rejected anything in the
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Scripture that was miraculous to begin with because i was a very
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Committed philosophical naturalist, right?
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I mean miracles just don't occur, i didn't think that
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Was possible.
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And the biggest claim of all really comes down to this
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Resurrected man.
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Because the promise is not just that he dies for the sins of the
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World, it's that he also promises to us eternal life.
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We will be also resurrected if this is true.
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That's a big claim.
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Kirk: it's a huge claim.
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Jay: yeah, i was skeptical.
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Kirk: yeah, because i think to myself, like, well, there's all
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Sorts of very important things in the bible, and let's just
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Take the virgin birth.
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Well, jesus was born from a mom who was a virgin.
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And you're like, "well, wait, says who?
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Says who about all the stuff in the bible?"
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But if you can say, "i'll tell you who says.
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The guy that rose from the dead."
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All of a sudden, that carries a credibility that is different
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From everybody else.
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Jay: and that was where i was stuck because i would have said,
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And my inclination was that this is probably not true, that most
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Of this is a fabrication.
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Yeah, i always held that position.
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Now, i wasn't trying to prove anyone wrong.
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I just got interested in jesus because i was in a church with
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My wife.
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She wanted to go. i'm like my dad.
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My dad's a very committed atheist.
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He'll be happy to go with his wife to church because he thinks
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It's a useful delusion.
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And i was in the same opinion.
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If it helps you raise your kids, our kids, i'm happy to go.
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So, we get there and the pastor says that jesus is the smartest
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Man who ever lived and i'm like, "ah, is that true?
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I should probably buy a bible to see what's so smart
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About jesus."
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I would have read that bible and i did the first time thinking,
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"okay, this is good, this is good stuff, good stuff, miracles
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Aren't true.
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That's gotta be a fabrication.
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But the rest of the stuff's probably true."
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So, for me, it was trying to figure out like what is the
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Investigative framework by which i'm gonna test these miracles to
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See if they actually could be true?
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And that's really what the whole investigation was.
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And, of course, the biggest miracle of all in the new
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Testament would be the resurrection.
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So, that's why i was so focused on that issue.
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Kirk: yeah, i remember hank hanegraaff, as the "bible
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Answer man" would say that the resurrection is the capstone in
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The arch of christianity.
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Everything depends on that capstone.
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That's what holds the whole thing together.
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Jay: and this is what paul says in 1 corinthians 15.
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If this isn't true, he says, we are two things.
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Number one, you have no hope of your own resurrection.
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And number 2, we have been lying too.
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We have been false witnesses.
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So, i needed to know, if paul says it's that important, okay,
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I'm in.
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I'll investigate this one thing.
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Paul says it's the one thing i should be investigating, so i'm
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Gonna investigate it.
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Kirk: so, i'm not a homicide detective.
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Why do you say that it's important to take a detective's
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Approach to the resurrection?
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Jay: okay, so this is just-- part of it is not that i'm
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Trying to be like cute here or clever.
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It's just that this is the skill set i happen to have.
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So, when we have a cold case, that's just an unsolved case
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From the past.
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There are always murders because there's no statute of
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Limitations on a murder.
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So, let's stay open.
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And we often get to a place where we have no access to the
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Eyewitnesses anymore, they're dead.
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No access to the first listeners, the first reporters,
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Because those report writers are now all dead.
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So, what do i do?
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I've got a report written by somebody who interviewed
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An eyewitness.
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I have no access to either one of these guys.
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Well, that's just like the gospels.
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I have no access to the actual witness who then told somebody
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Who wrote it down on paper and i have no access to either one.
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So, that skill set that i used to determine "is that
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Report true?"
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I just imported it into my investigation of scripture.
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So, a lot of it was kind of a forensic reading of scripture
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That would tell me, you know, can i trust it as an
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Eyewitness account?
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Kirk: yeah, yeah, and one of the things that i find really
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Important that you point out in your booklet is that, you know,
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There are possible explanations for everything.
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Jay: yes.
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Kirk: but what we need to get to is the most probable
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Explanation, the most reasonable explanation.
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I love how you point out just considering that it's possible
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That you and i aren't even having this conversation
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Right now.
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That somehow we were abducted by aliens last night and we all
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Think that we're in this set right now, talking on the show
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Called "takeaways."
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Jay: oh, it's possible this is an ai version of a communication
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That somebody has crafted.
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So, whoever you're watching isn't even us.
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Kirk: and the people who are watching us say this right now
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Are actually in the midst of the matrix and they don't even
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Know it.
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Jay: exactly, so that's possible--
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Kirk: right, but that's very improbable.
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We don't really think that that's the case.
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There's a much more reasonable explanation, and that is that we
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Are real people, we're actually here doing this.
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Jay: yeah, so here's what we always tell people, okay, look,
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The standard of proof in a criminal trial is not beyond a
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Possible doubt.
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That's too high.
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The standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.
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That's a lower standard, right?
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And so we convict people and send them to the death penalty
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At this standard, not this standard.
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Now what's in the gap?
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We tell jurors all the time, what's in the gap are your
00:09:25.554 --> 00:09:27.923
Unanswered questions.
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I tell jurors, i'm gonna tell you everything you need to know,
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But i can't tell you everything that could be known, because i
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Don't know.
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He hasn't confessed to me.
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He didn't tell me how he did it or why he did it, but i can
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Demonstrate that he did it.
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And then that gap between reasonable doubt and possible
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Doubt is filled with all these kinds of unanswered questions.
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If i'm gonna determine that christianity is true, i know my
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Standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, and i'm going to have
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Some unanswered questions.
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But that is true for everything you think you know.
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You get in your car, you drive it.
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Do you know how it functions? no.
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Lots of unanswered questions.
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Do you still turn the key? yes.
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Do you put a key in the locking your door?
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Yes.
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Do you know how tumbler locks work?
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No. lots of unanswered questions.
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Nobody lives at the standard of beyond a possible doubt because
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You'd be frozen, afraid to do anything, because of all kinds
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Of possibilities.
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When i leave you here, i'm gonna get in a plane,
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I'm gonna fly home.
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Is it possible that plane will crash?
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Yes.
00:10:18.374 --> 00:10:19.709
Am i gonna get in the plane? yes.
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Do i know how the plane works? no.
00:10:21.043 --> 00:10:22.545
Am i gonna get in the plane? yes.
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So, we live at this lower standard.
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That's a standard that's applicable for anything you
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Think you believe in, including the resurrection.
00:10:28.417 --> 00:10:30.119
Kirk: that's right. that's right.
00:10:30.119 --> 00:10:32.154
And as somebody who wants to have absolute proof about
00:10:32.154 --> 00:10:35.725
Everything and that "this must necessarily be true, or i'm not
00:10:35.725 --> 00:10:38.594
Gonna believe it," well, like you're pointing out, that's an
00:10:38.594 --> 00:10:41.263
Impossible standard.
00:10:41.263 --> 00:10:42.598
I don't live by that standard, and i wouldn't want anybody else
00:10:42.598 --> 00:10:45.534
To live by that standard.
00:10:45.534 --> 00:10:46.869
Otherwise, my wife couldn't conclude that i'm actually
00:10:46.869 --> 00:10:49.905
Faithful to her.
00:10:49.905 --> 00:10:51.273
Even though i am.
00:10:51.273 --> 00:10:52.608
Jay: yeah, you would be miserable--
00:10:52.608 --> 00:10:53.943
Kirk: it's possible that you're deceiving me.
00:10:53.943 --> 00:10:55.344
It's like, well, now you live in crazy worlds.
00:10:55.344 --> 00:10:57.680
Jay: yes, and i think if you could just apply this idea of
00:10:57.680 --> 00:11:00.015
Thinking, this way of thinking, that i've got to shoot for a
00:11:00.015 --> 00:11:02.952
Reasonable standard, and there's all kinds of possibilities, but
00:11:02.952 --> 00:11:06.455
They're not reasonable.
00:11:06.455 --> 00:11:07.823
So, it's okay for me in good mind, reasonably to simply let
00:11:07.823 --> 00:11:11.927
Those go.
00:11:11.927 --> 00:11:13.295
And we tell jurors not to "speculate," that's the word in
00:11:13.295 --> 00:11:15.798
The jury room, not to speculate about unfruitful possibilities
00:11:15.798 --> 00:11:20.636
That are not supported by evidence.
00:11:20.636 --> 00:11:21.971
Instead, look at what is reasonably supported by
00:11:21.971 --> 00:11:24.707
The evidence.
00:11:24.707 --> 00:11:26.041
And yes, you'll have some unanswered questions, get over
00:11:26.041 --> 00:11:27.910
It, make a step, we call it a verdict.
00:11:27.910 --> 00:11:31.046
Here we call it a decision of faith.
00:11:31.046 --> 00:11:33.015
But the faith is not unreasonable.
00:11:33.015 --> 00:11:34.650
It's in light of evidence, even though there are
00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:36.652
Unanswered questions.
00:11:36.652 --> 00:11:38.120
Kirk: i love this. i love this.
00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:39.455
I wanna get into all of the objections to the resurrection,
00:11:39.455 --> 00:11:43.626
The possible other explanations as to why the disciples believed
00:11:43.626 --> 00:11:48.798
That jesus rose from the dead, and i want you to walk us
00:11:48.798 --> 00:11:52.434
Through it as a detective to help us come to a verdict based
00:11:52.434 --> 00:11:56.906
On the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:11:56.906 --> 00:12:01.277
Fair enough?
00:12:01.277 --> 00:12:02.611
Jay: yep.
00:12:02.611 --> 00:12:03.979
Kirk: when we come back, we're gonna talk with j. warner on
00:12:03.979 --> 00:12:05.581
Other explanations of what happened to jesus after he died
00:12:05.581 --> 00:12:08.717
And why they fall short under close examination,
00:12:08.717 --> 00:12:12.021
So stay with us.
00:12:12.021 --> 00:12:18.008
So stay with us.
00:12:18.008 --> 00:12:19.228
Kirk: welcome back.
00:12:26.268 --> 00:12:27.503
We are talking about the resurrection of jesus.
00:12:27.603 --> 00:12:30.272
If you don't believe he came back from the dead, what are the
00:12:30.372 --> 00:12:33.843
Other ways to resolve what happened to jesus that would
00:12:33.976 --> 00:12:34.944
Stand up to scrutiny?
00:12:37.479 --> 00:12:39.081
My guest, j. warner wallace, has a booklet that tests these
00:12:39.081 --> 00:12:42.818
Objections, and we're gonna go through them now.
00:12:42.818 --> 00:12:46.288
Before we get started, what did you think happened to jesus
00:12:46.288 --> 00:12:49.992
After he died, when you were an atheist?
00:12:49.992 --> 00:12:52.928
Jay: okay, so just so you know how detectives think, we're such
00:12:52.928 --> 00:12:55.898
Innate pessimists.
00:12:55.898 --> 00:12:57.233
Basically, here's where i start off.
00:12:57.233 --> 00:12:59.034
Everyone's a liar.
00:12:59.034 --> 00:13:00.402
Until i demonstrate that somebody isn't.
00:13:00.402 --> 00:13:02.171
So--does not work in your marriage
00:13:02.171 --> 00:13:03.505
I know it does not work in your personal life, but it does work
00:13:03.505 --> 00:13:06.075
In investigations.
00:13:06.075 --> 00:13:07.409
If you start off thinking everyone's a jerk and a liar,
00:13:07.409 --> 00:13:09.245
Eventually you're gonna take somebody to jail.
00:13:09.245 --> 00:13:10.646
If you start off thinking everyone's a truth teller, no
00:13:10.646 --> 00:13:12.448
One ever goes to jail.
00:13:12.448 --> 00:13:13.816
So, of the two approaches, one is more satisfactory than the
00:13:13.816 --> 00:13:16.118
Other in terms of "results."
00:13:16.118 --> 00:13:17.486
Now, when it came to this, i just figured up front, this is
00:13:17.486 --> 00:13:19.722
A lie.
00:13:19.722 --> 00:13:21.090
This cannot be true.
00:13:21.090 --> 00:13:22.424
But i understand how lies are crafted.
00:13:22.424 --> 00:13:25.761
And so, if this is a lie, it would be some kind of
00:13:25.761 --> 00:13:28.163
Conspiratorial lie because there's more than one person
00:13:28.163 --> 00:13:30.733
Doing it.
00:13:30.733 --> 00:13:32.067
And that's one of the possible explanations that people
00:13:32.067 --> 00:13:33.669
Would offer.
00:13:33.669 --> 00:13:35.037
That's what i would have offered.
00:13:35.037 --> 00:13:36.372
This was kind of a group lie that was advanced for a
00:13:36.372 --> 00:13:38.540
Particular motive.
00:13:38.540 --> 00:13:39.875
Well, okay, so that's the question i have to ask.
00:13:39.875 --> 00:13:42.177
Number one, it's easier to lie.
00:13:42.177 --> 00:13:44.079
If you wanted to lie about jesus, here's how you do it.
00:13:44.079 --> 00:13:46.148
You wait till everyone who knows the truth is dead, then you can
00:13:46.148 --> 00:13:48.417
Say whatever you want.
00:13:48.417 --> 00:13:49.785
So, a lie that occurs later in history is far more reasonable
00:13:49.785 --> 00:13:52.988
To actually pull off than a lie that occurs earlier in history.
00:13:52.988 --> 00:13:57.259
So, the dating of when these were written was really
00:13:57.259 --> 00:13:59.929
Important to me.
00:13:59.929 --> 00:14:01.297
I think there are a number of forensic clues in the gospels.
00:14:01.297 --> 00:14:04.066
And that you can trace the transmission of the ideas of the
00:14:04.066 --> 00:14:06.902
Gospels through history, i have good reason, and we talk about
00:14:06.902 --> 00:14:10.139
This in the booklet, to believe these are written early in
00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:13.075
History, it's much harder to lie.
00:14:13.075 --> 00:14:14.977
Also, you have to ask yourself the question what motivates
00:14:14.977 --> 00:14:18.047
A lie?
00:14:18.047 --> 00:14:19.381
There's only three reasons why anyone tells a lie.
00:14:19.381 --> 00:14:20.716
They're the same three reasons why anyone kills somebody.
00:14:20.716 --> 00:14:23.585
So, this is, i learned this work on the job, but it's also in
00:14:23.585 --> 00:14:25.955
Scripture in 1 john.
00:14:25.955 --> 00:14:27.623
And it's basically this: it's the pursuit of sex, money,
00:14:27.623 --> 00:14:30.125
And power.
00:14:30.125 --> 00:14:31.460
Those are the things that cause people to lie.
00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:32.795
So, i ought to test the disciples, whoever's making this
00:14:32.795 --> 00:14:35.564
Claim, like what are they getting out of this?
00:14:35.564 --> 00:14:37.700
They should be getting something out of it in one of those three
00:14:37.700 --> 00:14:40.002
Categories that would motivate all of them as a group to tell
00:14:40.002 --> 00:14:43.472
This lie.
00:14:43.472 --> 00:14:44.840
The problem is they don't seem to have a motive sufficient for
00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:47.142
The lie because it's gonna cost them their lives,
00:14:47.142 --> 00:14:49.778
Often brutally.
00:14:49.778 --> 00:14:51.213
So, what am i trying to get out of this?
00:14:51.213 --> 00:14:52.681
Paul writes most of the new testament.
00:14:52.681 --> 00:14:54.149
What's he trying to get out of this?
00:14:54.149 --> 00:14:55.484
He's trying to get power?
00:14:55.484 --> 00:14:56.852
Some "skeptics" will say he didn't get sex or money.
00:14:56.852 --> 00:14:58.821
But he did get power. he became somebody.
00:14:58.821 --> 00:15:00.255
Kirk: he became somebody famous.
00:15:00.255 --> 00:15:01.657
Jay: hold on. he was somebody before.
00:15:01.657 --> 00:15:03.225
In a bigger group that wasn't being persecuted, he was trained
00:15:03.225 --> 00:15:05.694
By one of the best 1st century rabbis, had enough authority,
00:15:05.694 --> 00:15:08.931
Power, and respect to draw papers to have
00:15:08.931 --> 00:15:11.400
Christians executed.
00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:12.735
So, one day, he decides to jump out of this position of
00:15:12.735 --> 00:15:15.337
Authority, power, and respect and jump in with these
00:15:15.337 --> 00:15:17.306
Christians and get really beat up all over the world for 30
00:15:17.306 --> 00:15:19.842
Years to do what?
00:15:19.842 --> 00:15:21.477
To return to the position he already held with a smaller
00:15:21.477 --> 00:15:24.713
Group that's under more persecution?
00:15:24.713 --> 00:15:26.415
What is the point of this?
00:15:26.415 --> 00:15:27.850
Is it possible he did it for that?
00:15:27.850 --> 00:15:29.351
Of course, anything's possible.
00:15:29.351 --> 00:15:30.786
Everything's possible.
00:15:30.786 --> 00:15:32.154
Is it reasonable?
00:15:32.154 --> 00:15:33.489
No, and that's why i think, okay, so these things start to
00:15:33.489 --> 00:15:35.190
Fall apart.
00:15:35.190 --> 00:15:36.558
Also, if you think you know about a successful conspiracy,
00:15:36.558 --> 00:15:40.162
It wasn't successful by definition.
00:15:40.162 --> 00:15:42.765
Successful conspiracies are the ones that go undetected.
00:15:42.765 --> 00:15:46.502
Successful conspiracies require five things, in my experience,
00:15:46.502 --> 00:15:49.004
Because we break a lot of conspiracies.
00:15:49.004 --> 00:15:50.339
Number 1, the least number of people.
00:15:50.339 --> 00:15:52.574
We know there's too many people involved in this.
00:15:52.574 --> 00:15:54.410
There's at least 500 who saw the risen christ on the same day,
00:15:54.410 --> 00:15:57.546
According to paul.
00:15:57.546 --> 00:15:58.947
There were 120 in the upper room to replace judas.
00:15:58.947 --> 00:16:02.718
They picked matthias.
00:16:02.718 --> 00:16:04.053
Well, why?
00:16:04.053 --> 00:16:05.421
Because 120 who had seen the risen christ, but had also known
00:16:05.421 --> 00:16:07.823
Him from the baptism.
00:16:07.823 --> 00:16:09.858
That's all an eyewitness account.
00:16:09.858 --> 00:16:11.960
There's too many people to hold this.
00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.396
You also wanna hold it for the least possible amount of time.
00:16:14.396 --> 00:16:16.465
It's easy to tell a lie if only two people are holding it for
00:16:16.465 --> 00:16:18.767
Two days.
00:16:18.767 --> 00:16:20.135
But when hundreds are holding it for 60 years, it's just
00:16:20.135 --> 00:16:23.005
Not reasonable.
00:16:23.005 --> 00:16:24.373
Also, you have to have excellent communication
00:16:24.373 --> 00:16:26.241
Between co-conspirators.
00:16:26.241 --> 00:16:27.576
So, if you get stopped and questioned, you need to tell me
00:16:27.576 --> 00:16:29.178
What you told them so i can repeat it.
00:16:29.178 --> 00:16:31.380
Yeah, these people are all over the mediterranean area.
00:16:31.380 --> 00:16:34.450
Kirk: yeah, and they didn't have cell phones--
00:16:34.450 --> 00:16:36.452
Jay: they had in no way to-- yeah, no cell phones, no
00:16:36.452 --> 00:16:38.053
Texting, no way to communicate.
00:16:38.053 --> 00:16:39.388
They gotta hold the story together, not knowing if
00:16:39.388 --> 00:16:40.722
Somebody's already given up a lie, or a different version of
00:16:40.722 --> 00:16:42.524
The story, ah, too hard to do.
00:16:42.524 --> 00:16:44.993
Also, you need to have no pressure.
00:16:44.993 --> 00:16:46.762
If no one's pressuring you, you're likely not to get to, but
00:16:46.762 --> 00:16:49.598
There's a ton of pressure here.
00:16:49.598 --> 00:16:51.033
So, i'm looking at the metrics of what is usually in place for
00:16:51.033 --> 00:16:55.204
A successful conspiracy to occur, and all of it is missing,
00:16:55.204 --> 00:16:59.508
Every single piece.
00:16:59.508 --> 00:17:00.876
The final piece is that you don't usually give up
00:17:00.876 --> 00:17:02.878
Your brother.
00:17:02.878 --> 00:17:04.246
Your physical brother, or your mom, or your dad.
00:17:04.246 --> 00:17:06.682
But there's a lot of people here who don't give a lick about
00:17:06.682 --> 00:17:08.884
Anybody else.
00:17:08.884 --> 00:17:10.219
Matthew comes in.
00:17:10.219 --> 00:17:11.587
He's not even liked by anybody else.
00:17:11.587 --> 00:17:12.955
He's a tax collector. what's in it for matthew?
00:17:12.955 --> 00:17:14.289
He's got no family members that are part of the disciple group.
00:17:14.289 --> 00:17:17.559
I mean, he's the first guy i would expect to flip.
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:19.795
And sure enough, he writes a gospel, never changes his story.
00:17:19.795 --> 00:17:23.232
So, there's just too much in there that's not--if you were
00:17:23.232 --> 00:17:25.868
Investigating as a conspiracy in 2025, 2026, 2027, you would
00:17:25.868 --> 00:17:31.573
Not--and you'd say this is not reasonable.
00:17:31.573 --> 00:17:34.610
But then we get to the christian view.
00:17:34.610 --> 00:17:36.612
The christian claims, "oh, well, maybe it happened."
00:17:36.612 --> 00:17:38.347
Well, why are we doing that?
00:17:38.347 --> 00:17:39.681
It's the exact same process, the exact same criteria.
00:17:39.681 --> 00:17:42.718
To me, this is just not a reasonable conspiracy.
00:17:42.718 --> 00:17:46.722
Kirk: what about the objection that jesus never really died--
00:17:46.722 --> 00:17:51.693
That it's--then it's easy to explain the "resurrection"
00:17:51.693 --> 00:17:55.097
Because jesus was maybe wounded and injured around the cross,
00:17:55.097 --> 00:17:59.134
And then they nursed him back to health and, wow, he's
00:17:59.134 --> 00:18:02.171
Resurrected from the dead.
00:18:02.171 --> 00:18:03.605
Why doesn't that hold water?
00:18:03.605 --> 00:18:04.940
Jay: well, okay, so, i think you and i, most people in america
00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:07.075
Today, or in the world today, don't necessarily touch their
00:18:07.075 --> 00:18:09.745
Own dead.
00:18:09.745 --> 00:18:11.079
They call a mortuary, they call the coroner's office.
00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:13.549
We don't have experience handling dead people.
00:18:13.549 --> 00:18:16.185
So, when we see an unconscious actor in a movie, we go, looks
00:18:16.185 --> 00:18:18.887
Like he's dead.
00:18:18.887 --> 00:18:20.222
Listen, if you're a cop, or a coroner, or a medical expert,
00:18:20.222 --> 00:18:22.858
You know what dead people look like.
00:18:22.858 --> 00:18:25.694
In the 1st century, you buried your own dead, you prepared
00:18:25.694 --> 00:18:29.398
Their bodies, you were familiar with death in a way that we are
00:18:29.398 --> 00:18:32.167
Not familiar today.
00:18:32.167 --> 00:18:33.502
So, what i always tell people is there are three aspects of death
00:18:33.502 --> 00:18:36.305
That are really obvious if you've ever handled a
00:18:36.305 --> 00:18:38.240
Dead person.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:39.575
I can't imagine how they would miss it when wrapping the body
00:18:39.575 --> 00:18:42.177
Of jesus.
00:18:42.177 --> 00:18:43.545
And it's called the mortis triad.
00:18:43.545 --> 00:18:44.880
So, basically what happens is when you die, you begin to lose
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:47.716
Your body temperature.
00:18:47.716 --> 00:18:49.084
That hot blood is not coursing through your veins anymore.
00:18:49.084 --> 00:18:50.986
You become--you start to cool down.
00:18:50.986 --> 00:18:53.088
When you touch a dead body, you can tell right away that it's
00:18:53.088 --> 00:18:55.757
Not the same temperature as a living body.
00:18:55.757 --> 00:18:57.759
It's a giveaway and there's no way i can imagine you handling
00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:00.395
The body of jesus without noticing this.
00:19:00.395 --> 00:19:02.297
Two, you begin to stiffen.
00:19:02.297 --> 00:19:04.466
It's just a part of that dead-- that dying process.
00:19:04.466 --> 00:19:08.070
So, if i die in a cross position, i pull you off the
00:19:08.070 --> 00:19:10.305
Cross, you're not just gonna flop down, you're gonna
00:19:10.305 --> 00:19:12.608
Be stiff.
00:19:12.608 --> 00:19:13.942
I'm going to push down your body to get--you're not gonna notice
00:19:13.942 --> 00:19:15.944
This if you're handling the body of jesus.
00:19:15.944 --> 00:19:17.946
And finally, there's a thing that happens, it's called
00:19:17.946 --> 00:19:20.215
Livor mortis.
00:19:20.215 --> 00:19:21.550
We're talking about algor mortis, rigor mortis, and now
00:19:21.550 --> 00:19:23.485
Livor mortis.
00:19:23.485 --> 00:19:24.853
Livor mortis is basically just the idea that when your blood
00:19:24.853 --> 00:19:27.456
Stops--your heart stops pushing blood, gravity starts to
00:19:27.456 --> 00:19:31.260
Draw it.
00:19:31.260 --> 00:19:32.594
If i die on my back, when i get there and roll you over, your
00:19:32.594 --> 00:19:34.696
Back will be discolored, purple and swollen because the blood
00:19:34.696 --> 00:19:38.033
Settles to the lowest gravity spot.
00:19:38.033 --> 00:19:39.568
If you die on a cross, your feet will be swollen and purple.
00:19:39.568 --> 00:19:43.305
Because the blood stops traveling through your body.
00:19:43.305 --> 00:19:45.874
Look, i know that sounds pretty gruesome to be talking about,
00:19:45.874 --> 00:19:48.410
But the reality of it is, the people who would have taken
00:19:48.410 --> 00:19:50.812
Jesus's body off the cross and wrapped him would have certainly
00:19:50.812 --> 00:19:53.682
Noticed the three conditions of the mortis triad because they're
00:19:53.682 --> 00:19:56.385
So common.
00:19:56.385 --> 00:19:57.719
Also remember, when they stab him, when they pull the
00:19:57.719 --> 00:20:00.255
Sword out--
00:20:00.255 --> 00:20:01.623
Kirk: yeah, that's what i wanted to ask--
00:20:01.623 --> 00:20:02.958
Jay: there's a separation of blood and water.
00:20:02.958 --> 00:20:04.326
Kirk: that's right, what--blood and water, what is that all
00:20:04.326 --> 00:20:06.461
About and why is that significant?
00:20:06.461 --> 00:20:07.796
Jay: well, nobody understood this because the earliest
00:20:07.796 --> 00:20:09.665
Writings of the church fathers when they're describing this
00:20:09.665 --> 00:20:11.867
Passage in john, they don't know what it is, and they always say,
00:20:11.867 --> 00:20:14.836
Well, it couldn't be water, it must be like an allegory, it
00:20:14.836 --> 00:20:17.372
Must be like a kind of--
00:20:17.372 --> 00:20:18.707
Kirk: symbolic for something else like--
00:20:18.707 --> 00:20:20.075
Jay: some kind of symbol for the holy spirit, for something, a
00:20:20.075 --> 00:20:22.077
Water baptism.
00:20:22.077 --> 00:20:23.445
It must be a symbol.
00:20:23.445 --> 00:20:24.780
They didn't understand, basically, that what happens
00:20:24.780 --> 00:20:26.648
When you die is you have a certain form of effusion.
00:20:26.648 --> 00:20:29.151
Either you have water collecting around your heart, that's called
00:20:29.151 --> 00:20:31.720
Pericardial effusion, or you have something happen to your
00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.956
Pleural effusion is when water collects in your lungs.
00:20:34.956 --> 00:20:37.526
Now, this happens when your heart stops beating, when you've
00:20:37.526 --> 00:20:40.228
Already suffered.
00:20:40.228 --> 00:20:41.596
Kirk: i have friends who are in situations, i didn't mean to cut
00:20:41.596 --> 00:20:44.066
You off, but friends who are sick with liver problems, kidney
00:20:44.066 --> 00:20:47.369
Problems, heart problems.
00:20:47.369 --> 00:20:48.770
When you hear like, oh, we've got to drain some fluid off
00:20:48.770 --> 00:20:51.707
Their lungs.
00:20:51.707 --> 00:20:53.075
We've got to drain some fluid off your heart.
00:20:53.075 --> 00:20:54.710
This is what you're talking about.
00:20:54.710 --> 00:20:56.044
Jay: yeah, so, when they stab you in the lung area and you see
00:20:56.044 --> 00:20:58.180
The separation of water and blood, you already know this
00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:01.383
Person has suffered cardiac arrest, and it's a good--it's a
00:21:01.383 --> 00:21:04.653
Hidden piece of evidence in the new testament that demonstrates
00:21:04.653 --> 00:21:08.090
That jesus was actually dead at the point of the piercing.
00:21:08.090 --> 00:21:11.159
And so, there's a couple of little clues in scripture and
00:21:11.159 --> 00:21:14.029
Also this idea that the first century would have--any of his
00:21:14.029 --> 00:21:17.466
Friends and loved ones who would have been handling his body
00:21:17.466 --> 00:21:20.502
Would have missed the mortis triad.
00:21:20.502 --> 00:21:22.771
To me, is it possible--i always--like if you ask me on
00:21:22.771 --> 00:21:25.841
Any of these, is it possible that he didn't die?
00:21:25.841 --> 00:21:28.276
Sure, but it's not reasonable.
00:21:28.276 --> 00:21:30.412
And that's why i moved from-- i don't live in the world
00:21:30.412 --> 00:21:32.414
Of possible.
00:21:32.414 --> 00:21:33.782
Nobody does.
00:21:33.782 --> 00:21:35.117
Kirk: yeah, you can't--
00:21:35.117 --> 00:21:36.485
Jay: you have to live in the world of reasonable.
00:21:36.485 --> 00:21:37.819
It's just not reasonable that he wasn't dead on the cross for
00:21:37.819 --> 00:21:39.421
Those two sets of reasons.
00:21:39.421 --> 00:21:40.756
Kirk: that's right.
00:21:40.756 --> 00:21:42.090
You could never come to a conclusion about anything.
00:21:42.090 --> 00:21:43.425
We, again, we could be aliens right now.
00:21:43.425 --> 00:21:44.793
We could be an ai generated body of guys, but it's just not, we
00:21:44.793 --> 00:21:48.130
Can't live like that.
00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:49.498
Jay: no, you can't.
00:21:49.498 --> 00:21:50.832
And that's why this is so important for us to look at
00:21:50.832 --> 00:21:52.434
These--this is what we do at every crime scene.
00:21:52.434 --> 00:21:53.769
We walk in and we make a list of all the evidence in the room.
00:21:53.769 --> 00:21:56.438
We've got an empty tomb.
00:21:56.438 --> 00:21:58.073
We've got a man crucified.
00:21:58.073 --> 00:22:00.342
We've got these minimal pieces of evidence, okay.
00:22:00.342 --> 00:22:03.011
Then we look at all of the explanations, the possible--you
00:22:03.011 --> 00:22:05.280
Have the list of all the possible explanations.
00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:07.549
That's what we're doing here and we're just simply crossing off
00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:09.818
That list what is not possible.
00:22:09.818 --> 00:22:11.553
Kirk: okay, i got another one.
00:22:11.553 --> 00:22:12.888
I got another possible explanation that the disciples
00:22:12.888 --> 00:22:16.324
Were delusional,
00:22:16.324 --> 00:22:17.659
That they hallucinated, that they actually made this up and
00:22:17.659 --> 00:22:21.797
They believed it against what was actually going on.
00:22:21.797 --> 00:22:26.301
Jay: yeah, right.
00:22:26.301 --> 00:22:27.669
Well, and a lot of this too is like, okay, if this is the case,
00:22:27.669 --> 00:22:29.671
We have to ask ourselves the question, okay, so how many
00:22:29.671 --> 00:22:31.506
Accounts and how many of--what kind of variety of accounts do
00:22:31.506 --> 00:22:34.543
We hold?
00:22:34.543 --> 00:22:35.911
There's a lot of different variety of accounts that we see
00:22:35.911 --> 00:22:39.314
In which jesus is described by different people in different
00:22:39.314 --> 00:22:41.683
Settings doing different things.
00:22:41.683 --> 00:22:43.385
So, this idea that we're having this kind of groupthink.
00:22:43.385 --> 00:22:46.354
Look, if i told you i had a dream last night and you said i
00:22:46.354 --> 00:22:48.857
Was in a car in malibu and you said, "oh, yeah, it was a
00:22:48.857 --> 00:22:51.059
Red tesla."
00:22:51.059 --> 00:22:52.761
How would you know that?
00:22:52.761 --> 00:22:54.095
Oh, yeah, a wide interior.
00:22:54.095 --> 00:22:55.464
It would freak me out because we don't have "group dreams."
00:22:55.464 --> 00:22:58.567
Those things we do together that we know the background, those
00:22:58.567 --> 00:23:01.036
Are called actual experiences we've had together.
00:23:01.036 --> 00:23:04.039
So, to have a group dream, a "group hallucinating," is just--
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:08.210
Kirk: it wasn't just one guy who said--
00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:09.544
Jay: it's not just one.
00:23:09.544 --> 00:23:10.879
Kirk: "i saw the resurrection of jesus," it's a whole bunch
00:23:10.879 --> 00:23:12.981
Of people.
00:23:12.981 --> 00:23:14.349
Jay: yes, if you listen them, you'll see--
00:23:14.349 --> 00:23:15.684
Kirk: like hundred of them.
00:23:15.684 --> 00:23:17.052
Jay: yes, and you'll have two, then you'll have three people
00:23:17.052 --> 00:23:18.520
Who will say it.
00:23:18.520 --> 00:23:19.855
On the road to emmaus you have more than one.
00:23:19.855 --> 00:23:21.189
You have the ten, but you've got no judas, you've got no thomas.
00:23:21.189 --> 00:23:23.191
Then you put thomas back.
00:23:23.191 --> 00:23:24.526
Now i've got 11.
00:23:24.526 --> 00:23:25.894
I've got the mountaintop experience with the disciples.
00:23:25.894 --> 00:23:27.629
How many disciples? don't know.
00:23:27.629 --> 00:23:29.731
At least the 11, probably more.
00:23:29.731 --> 00:23:31.433
You have all of these different--by the way, if any
00:23:31.433 --> 00:23:33.635
Of these--if it was just a group hallucination, then i
00:23:33.635 --> 00:23:37.272
Should be able to go back to the tomb of jesus and find a body.
00:23:37.272 --> 00:23:39.841
Because i've only imagined he's risen, but now i've got an empty
00:23:39.841 --> 00:23:42.911
Tomb to deal with.
00:23:42.911 --> 00:23:44.279
So, all of these kind of roll back to the idea that someone's
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.948
Stolen the body because none of them work, but if we roll back
00:23:46.948 --> 00:23:50.151
To this idea that someone's stolen the body, well then we
00:23:50.151 --> 00:23:52.754
Know it's a lie and that's why i had to do conspiracy
00:23:52.754 --> 00:23:55.490
Theory first.
00:23:55.490 --> 00:23:56.825
I needed to know first, is this a lie?
00:23:56.825 --> 00:23:58.927
Because if it's not a lie, well then all the other theories kind
00:23:58.927 --> 00:24:01.830
Of stand on a premise that someone's lying about the
00:24:01.830 --> 00:24:04.432
Empty tomb.
00:24:04.432 --> 00:24:05.800
That's why i just needed to knock that one down first.
00:24:05.800 --> 00:24:08.336
Kirk: yeah, well, we've got more alternative explanations to the
00:24:08.336 --> 00:24:12.974
Resurrection that i wanna get into.
00:24:12.974 --> 00:24:14.809
After the break, we're gonna continue our conversation with
00:24:14.809 --> 00:24:17.412
J. warner, examining the evidence of jesus's
00:24:17.412 --> 00:24:20.415
Resurrection, so don't go away.
00:24:20.415 --> 00:24:28.003
Resurrection, so don't go away.
00:24:28.003 --> 00:24:28.758
Kirk: what evidence was so compelling about the
00:24:35.398 --> 00:24:37.733
Resurrection that it turned an atheist into a
00:24:37.867 --> 00:24:40.937
Christian apologist?
00:24:41.070 --> 00:24:42.572
Well, we're gonna ask that question and more to our special
00:24:42.672 --> 00:24:43.673
Guest, former cold case homicide detective j. warner wallace.
00:24:45.241 --> 00:24:50.279
Jay, we're continuing this fascinating conversation,
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:52.815
Looking at other explanations for the resurrection of jesus
00:24:52.815 --> 00:24:55.985
Christ than what the bible says happened after jesus died.
00:24:55.985 --> 00:25:01.123
You talk in your booklet here, "case closed," about the
00:25:01.123 --> 00:25:04.760
Importance of the chain of custody for the claims related
00:25:04.760 --> 00:25:08.965
To the resurrection.
00:25:08.965 --> 00:25:10.299
Why is that so important and what is it?
00:25:10.299 --> 00:25:12.602
Jay: so, a couple of things here i was very skeptical about.
00:25:12.602 --> 00:25:15.237
And this is one of them.
00:25:15.237 --> 00:25:16.572
It's not gonna be the most skeptical about this one issue,
00:25:16.572 --> 00:25:18.441
But i figured there was probably a jesus of nazareth of some
00:25:18.441 --> 00:25:21.577
Sort, an ancient 1st century sage.
00:25:21.577 --> 00:25:23.579
And then there's the christ of christianity.
00:25:23.579 --> 00:25:25.348
This kind of exaggerated version of jesus that over the years
00:25:25.348 --> 00:25:29.085
Became more and more legendary.
00:25:29.085 --> 00:25:30.920
Kirk: kind of like saint nicholas was a real guy, but
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:33.456
Then all of a sudden over time he morphed into this jolly,
00:25:33.456 --> 00:25:36.826
Red-suited guy who drives a team of reindeers.
00:25:36.826 --> 00:25:39.528
Jay: exactly, so, you might be able to say, "oh no, no, saint
00:25:39.528 --> 00:25:41.430
Nicholas, he really existed in history."
00:25:41.430 --> 00:25:43.032
Yeah, but the version of him is very different.
00:25:43.032 --> 00:25:45.368
So, that's what i would have said.
00:25:45.368 --> 00:25:46.702
So, there's like a non-supernatural version.
00:25:46.702 --> 00:25:49.372
Never worked miracles, never rose from the grave, not born of
00:25:49.372 --> 00:25:51.641
A virgin.
00:25:51.641 --> 00:25:53.009
So, i needed to know if that's the case, i should see that the
00:25:53.009 --> 00:25:55.645
Story of jesus changes over time.
00:25:55.645 --> 00:25:57.980
Something similar happens in criminal trials.
00:25:57.980 --> 00:25:59.815
I have a piece of evidence in a crime scene and 30 years later i
00:25:59.815 --> 00:26:02.451
Bring it to trial.
00:26:02.451 --> 00:26:03.786
Now, someone could ask, "well, hold on a minute.
00:26:03.786 --> 00:26:05.354
Let's say i brought a casing and it has a little extractor pin
00:26:05.354 --> 00:26:08.324
Mark on it.
00:26:08.324 --> 00:26:09.659
I'm gonna make a case that belongs to his gun.
00:26:09.659 --> 00:26:11.127
Okay, well, how do i know that extractor pin mark was there in
00:26:11.127 --> 00:26:13.596
The beginning when you first found it?
00:26:13.596 --> 00:26:15.264
For all i know, you pulled it out of property ten years later
00:26:15.264 --> 00:26:17.867
And etched in the extractor pin mark, and nobody was the wiser,
00:26:17.867 --> 00:26:21.203
And now it's in our criminal trial and it never should have
00:26:21.203 --> 00:26:23.673
Been there to begin with.
00:26:23.673 --> 00:26:25.041
Kirk: easy to believe until you investigate it.
00:26:25.041 --> 00:26:26.375
Jay: exactly, so, now i need to know, okay, well, so couldn't
00:26:26.375 --> 00:26:27.977
Something similar have happened?
00:26:27.977 --> 00:26:29.311
There's a version of the jesus story, but then they add a
00:26:29.311 --> 00:26:30.980
Miracle, and they add this, and they add that.
00:26:30.980 --> 00:26:33.082
Between the 330 years between the actual event and the council
00:26:33.082 --> 00:26:36.986
Of laodicea, where the canon is "officially," you know, formed.
00:26:36.986 --> 00:26:41.590
Okay, that's a long time.
00:26:41.590 --> 00:26:43.192
That's 300 years i can work with making alterations to the story.
00:26:43.192 --> 00:26:46.896
Well, i know in criminal trials what we'll do is we'll ask a
00:26:46.896 --> 00:26:49.265
Question, "okay, well, who was the guy who collected the casing
00:26:49.265 --> 00:26:51.267
At the crime scene?
00:26:51.267 --> 00:26:52.635
Back in the day in my dad's generation of cops that the
00:26:52.635 --> 00:26:56.072
Officer would actually collect the evidence.
00:26:56.072 --> 00:26:57.840
There was no csi in 1961.
00:26:57.840 --> 00:27:00.876
So, he would collect it himself.
00:27:00.876 --> 00:27:02.645
Though the question is, did he take a polaroid?
00:27:02.645 --> 00:27:04.313
You know, a picture of it?
00:27:04.313 --> 00:27:05.648
Did he write a report?
00:27:05.648 --> 00:27:07.016
Did he mention anything about all the details of that piece
00:27:07.016 --> 00:27:08.751
Of evidence?
00:27:08.751 --> 00:27:10.086
When he gave it to somebody like my dad, he would take another
00:27:10.086 --> 00:27:11.821
Polaroid, write another report, book it into property.
00:27:11.821 --> 00:27:14.423
When would it go to the crime lab?
00:27:14.423 --> 00:27:15.758
Another picture, another report.
00:27:15.758 --> 00:27:17.293
I pick it up, another picture, another report.
00:27:17.293 --> 00:27:19.695
Now, i've got report, after report, after report to see if
00:27:19.695 --> 00:27:22.765
It's changing over time.
00:27:22.765 --> 00:27:24.133
It connects the past to the present like links in a chain,
00:27:24.133 --> 00:27:27.503
And we call this the chain of custody.
00:27:27.503 --> 00:27:29.972
Who had the piece of evidence?
00:27:29.972 --> 00:27:31.574
What did it look like?
00:27:31.574 --> 00:27:32.942
How did they describe it?
00:27:32.942 --> 00:27:34.276
Something similar can be done in the new testament.
00:27:34.276 --> 00:27:36.212
So, let's say i start with john and he writes the gospel
00:27:36.212 --> 00:27:38.414
Of john.
00:27:38.414 --> 00:27:39.749
And i wanna know, what was in that first gospel of john?
00:27:39.749 --> 00:27:41.784
I bet you there was nothing miraculous in it, right?
00:27:41.784 --> 00:27:44.019
He's just a simple teaching rabbi.
00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:45.855
Well, who did john first give it to?
00:27:45.855 --> 00:27:47.690
He had three personal students, right?
00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:49.358
Papias, ignatius, and polycarp.
00:27:49.358 --> 00:27:51.260
So, they sat at his feet.
00:27:51.260 --> 00:27:52.762
They wrote local letters to the local churches.
00:27:52.762 --> 00:27:54.864
How did they describe jesus in their local letters?
00:27:54.864 --> 00:27:57.666
Did they describe him in the same way that john did, or is he
00:27:57.666 --> 00:28:00.736
Less supernatural?
00:28:00.736 --> 00:28:02.605
And then their student is irenaeus.
00:28:02.605 --> 00:28:04.640
Did irenaeus add a detail?
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.576
His student is hippolytus.
00:28:07.576 --> 00:28:08.911
Does hippolytus add a detail?
00:28:08.911 --> 00:28:10.346
And you keep on doing this heel to toe, from teacher to student,
00:28:10.346 --> 00:28:13.482
Teacher to student, teacher to student to see if you can see
00:28:13.482 --> 00:28:16.218
Any manuscript evidence that the story of jesus is changing.
00:28:16.218 --> 00:28:19.822
I did this not only with john, but you can do it with paul
00:28:19.822 --> 00:28:23.392
Through linus and clement.
00:28:23.392 --> 00:28:24.894
His two students who became bishops in rome all the
00:28:24.894 --> 00:28:26.695
Way through.
00:28:26.695 --> 00:28:28.030
You can do it through peter, through his student, mark, who
00:28:28.030 --> 00:28:31.167
Pens the gospel of mark sitting with peter in rome according to
00:28:31.167 --> 00:28:34.036
Papias all the way through to the church in africa.
00:28:34.036 --> 00:28:36.906
So, you can do this in different regions of the world, at
00:28:36.906 --> 00:28:40.075
Different people, who according to different things and i just
00:28:40.075 --> 00:28:42.611
Simply went through that entire set of chains of custody.
00:28:42.611 --> 00:28:45.414
Here's what i discovered.
00:28:45.414 --> 00:28:47.049
The story of jesus, whether you think it's true or not, it
00:28:47.049 --> 00:28:50.319
Never changes.
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:51.687
We cannot say that it's a legendary story because the
00:28:51.687 --> 00:28:55.457
Story of jesus is just as supernatural in the first links
00:28:55.457 --> 00:28:59.695
Of the chain as it is in the last link of the chain.
00:28:59.695 --> 00:29:02.798
So, you could argue you don't like it, "i don't think it's
00:29:02.798 --> 00:29:04.533
True," but you can't argue it's an exaggeration or a legend
00:29:04.533 --> 00:29:08.337
Because we can trace that.
00:29:08.337 --> 00:29:09.805
And i can tell you with certainty that it's not a story
00:29:09.805 --> 00:29:12.208
That's being added to over time.
00:29:12.208 --> 00:29:14.176
Kirk: it's always been the same story.
00:29:14.176 --> 00:29:15.511
Jay: it's always been the same story.
00:29:15.511 --> 00:29:16.879
Kirk: this is so cool. this is so cool.
00:29:16.879 --> 00:29:18.681
All right, i got more questions and objections though.
00:29:18.681 --> 00:29:21.383
Okay, we're not gonna let you off the hook very easily.
00:29:21.383 --> 00:29:25.621
Well, i've got my own biggest hurdle to get over as a
00:29:25.621 --> 00:29:29.425
Young christian.
00:29:29.425 --> 00:29:30.759
But first i wanna ask you, what is the biggest objection to the
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:33.863
Resurrection you have found that people have?
00:29:33.863 --> 00:29:37.066
Jay: i think they think it's a lie.
00:29:37.066 --> 00:29:38.400
And it's just an easy, you know, you could argue on why they're
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.369
Lying, but i think it's some form of this is just a lie.
00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:43.439
But the lie idea is probably rooted in what maybe you and
00:29:43.439 --> 00:29:46.609
I had.
00:29:46.609 --> 00:29:47.977
Because i think you and i are similar in the sense that we had
00:29:47.977 --> 00:29:49.845
A similar foundational objection, right?
00:29:49.845 --> 00:29:54.416
And you tell me if i'm wrong.
00:29:54.416 --> 00:29:55.751
For me, it was that i thought any story involving something as
00:29:55.751 --> 00:30:00.422
Crazy and as supernatural as a miracle, of any kind, or a
00:30:00.422 --> 00:30:05.895
Resurrection, was just out of bounds.
00:30:05.895 --> 00:30:08.097
Like there's no point even, it's a non-starter.
00:30:08.097 --> 00:30:10.132
Don't even start with me if the story involves
00:30:10.132 --> 00:30:12.334
Something supernatural.
00:30:12.334 --> 00:30:14.303
I just don't believe in those kinds of.
00:30:14.303 --> 00:30:15.938
I would have said it's a category mistake.
00:30:15.938 --> 00:30:18.440
You think you're doing history, but you've inserted
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:20.342
The supernatural.
00:30:20.342 --> 00:30:21.677
You're doing mythology.
00:30:21.677 --> 00:30:23.045
It's still something, yeah-- it's not his story, right?
00:30:23.045 --> 00:30:25.748
Kirk: it's like zeus, just like all the other fairy tales.
00:30:25.748 --> 00:30:27.816
Jay: right, and so that was a non-starter for me.
00:30:27.816 --> 00:30:30.419
Was that true for you too?
00:30:30.419 --> 00:30:32.321
Kirk: yeah, basically that's where it comes down to
00:30:32.321 --> 00:30:34.223
Is it's like, you know, if you get me to believe in the first
00:30:34.223 --> 00:30:39.762
Place that there actually was a jesus, and he actually died on
00:30:39.762 --> 00:30:42.164
The cross, and the tomb was actually empty, and that saul
00:30:42.164 --> 00:30:46.669
Actually was converted to paul, then i agree with you, you can
00:30:46.669 --> 00:30:50.906
Make a really strong case.
00:30:50.906 --> 00:30:52.474
I just question the whole premise--
00:30:52.474 --> 00:30:54.343
Jay: the whole premise, yeah.
00:30:54.343 --> 00:30:55.678
Kirk: it's like, wait a minute.
00:30:55.678 --> 00:30:57.012
If you convince me that narnia was a real place and susan and
00:30:57.012 --> 00:31:00.316
Edmund actually went there through a wardrobe and aslan was
00:31:00.316 --> 00:31:04.320
Real, and the table actually broke, well then you could make
00:31:04.320 --> 00:31:08.590
A great case for the resurrection of aslan.
00:31:08.590 --> 00:31:10.759
I just don't believe that the story is real.
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:12.294
Jay: yeah, exactly, perfect.
00:31:12.294 --> 00:31:13.662
So, and one of the reasons why we don't believe it's real is
00:31:13.662 --> 00:31:16.665
Because we see in it what we perceive to be
00:31:16.665 --> 00:31:19.301
Fictional insertions.
00:31:19.301 --> 00:31:20.669
We see things that say no, that's just silliness, that's
00:31:20.669 --> 00:31:22.638
Just supernatural.
00:31:22.638 --> 00:31:23.973
So, what i had to do first is this is gonna sound geeky, but i
00:31:23.973 --> 00:31:26.742
Had to go back and ask myself, "is--this is about my having a
00:31:26.742 --> 00:31:30.479
View called pre--you know presuppositional, not a bias,
00:31:30.479 --> 00:31:33.582
But just a view of philosophical naturalism.
00:31:33.582 --> 00:31:36.385
There are no miracles.
00:31:36.385 --> 00:31:37.920
There are no talking lions, okay?
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.723
There are no wardrobes that you open up and you're in this
00:31:40.723 --> 00:31:43.258
Miraculous enchanted land.
00:31:43.258 --> 00:31:44.693
Kirk: and there are no virgins who give birth, men who come
00:31:44.693 --> 00:31:47.863
Back from the dead.
00:31:47.863 --> 00:31:49.231
Jay: so, i had a very strict, if you couldn't explain it with
00:31:49.231 --> 00:31:51.033
Space, time, matter, physics, and chemistry, it
00:31:51.033 --> 00:31:52.935
Doesn't happen.
00:31:52.935 --> 00:31:54.269
Kirk: yeah, you're a kook and i don't listen to you.
00:31:54.269 --> 00:31:55.738
Jay: exactly, so, then i had to ask myself a question.
00:31:55.738 --> 00:31:57.206
Well, okay, i was somebody who was an atheist, held to the
00:31:57.206 --> 00:31:59.875
Standard cosmological model of the universe.
00:31:59.875 --> 00:32:02.978
Which even today, given all the theories, the vast majority of
00:32:02.978 --> 00:32:06.582
Cosmologists and astrophysicists believe that the universe came
00:32:06.582 --> 00:32:10.386
Into existence from nothing at a time in the past.
00:32:10.386 --> 00:32:14.356
From nothing.
00:32:14.356 --> 00:32:15.691
All space, time, and matter came into existence from nothing.
00:32:15.691 --> 00:32:20.429
Not from a void. no, that's space.
00:32:20.429 --> 00:32:23.032
Space is not nothing. space is something.
00:32:23.032 --> 00:32:24.533
There was no space, no time, no matter until it came into
00:32:24.533 --> 00:32:28.604
Existence at the beginning of the universe.
00:32:28.604 --> 00:32:30.105
Now, that poses a problem.
00:32:30.105 --> 00:32:31.874
We have to define what nothing is.
00:32:31.874 --> 00:32:34.543
Nothing is not an empty space.
00:32:34.543 --> 00:32:35.911
That's something; that's empty space.
00:32:35.911 --> 00:32:38.247
Nothing is like what aristotle says rocks dream about--nothing.
00:32:38.247 --> 00:32:42.117
Okay, so the question then becomes, well, what is the cause
00:32:42.117 --> 00:32:45.087
Of all space, time and matter?
00:32:45.087 --> 00:32:46.822
It cannot be spatial, temporal, or material because that's what
00:32:46.822 --> 00:32:49.758
It's causing.
00:32:49.758 --> 00:32:51.126
Kirk: right.
00:32:51.126 --> 00:32:52.461
Jay: so, i'm already outside of naturalism for the first cause
00:32:52.461 --> 00:32:54.730
Of the universe.
00:32:54.730 --> 00:32:56.065
See, this is the problem i was having--
00:32:56.065 --> 00:32:57.766
Is i already believed there was something, at least one first
00:32:57.766 --> 00:33:01.537
Cause of everything natural that had to itself be outside of
00:33:01.537 --> 00:33:05.574
Nature because that's the thing it's causing.
00:33:05.574 --> 00:33:08.710
Now, if that's true, the biggest miracle in scripture is nowhere
00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:11.447
In the new testament.
00:33:11.447 --> 00:33:12.815
These are all small potato miracles.
00:33:12.815 --> 00:33:14.349
The biggest miracle is genesis 1--everything from nothing.
00:33:14.349 --> 00:33:18.454
If that's an impersonal force, okay, i get it.
00:33:18.454 --> 00:33:20.856
I think there is actually a very good reason to believe that's
00:33:20.856 --> 00:33:22.658
Not an impersonal force.
00:33:22.658 --> 00:33:23.992
But if it's a personal force, then i'm guessing if you can
00:33:23.992 --> 00:33:27.596
Create the universe, you can probably re-enter that creation
00:33:27.596 --> 00:33:31.633
And do whatever you want.
00:33:31.633 --> 00:33:33.335
You can walk on water, you can do it.
00:33:33.335 --> 00:33:34.803
So, i just needed to ask myself, is it reasonable to hold to a
00:33:34.803 --> 00:33:39.108
View that says there's nothing outside of space, time, matter
00:33:39.108 --> 00:33:41.210
Of physics and chemistry?
00:33:41.210 --> 00:33:42.845
And i already believed there was, so why wouldn't i trust any
00:33:42.845 --> 00:33:46.081
Of this?
00:33:46.081 --> 00:33:47.449
Now, here's one last thing i'll say.
00:33:47.449 --> 00:33:48.784
If you had a gospel, the set of gospels, and they were written
00:33:48.784 --> 00:33:52.421
The exact same way they are now, but there's no miracles in
00:33:52.421 --> 00:33:55.290
Them--no virgin birth, no resurrection, no miracles, just
00:33:55.290 --> 00:33:58.127
A preaching rabbi said some really great things--
00:33:58.127 --> 00:34:00.662
There wouldn't be a single skeptic on planet earth that
00:34:00.662 --> 00:34:03.398
Would deny the reliability of those accounts.
00:34:03.398 --> 00:34:06.602
There wouldn't.
00:34:06.602 --> 00:34:07.970
He is the best attested ancient in the history of ancients.
00:34:07.970 --> 00:34:10.973
His words are better attested than the words of anyone,
00:34:10.973 --> 00:34:14.143
Socrates, aristotle, anyone else.
00:34:14.143 --> 00:34:16.678
But you insert one miracle and everyone's like, "eh, can't
00:34:16.678 --> 00:34:19.581
Be true,"
00:34:19.581 --> 00:34:20.916
That shows you it's not about the manuscript evidence, it's
00:34:20.916 --> 00:34:23.318
Not about the historical evidence.
00:34:23.318 --> 00:34:24.920
It's about our presuppositional bias against the supernatural.
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:29.224
Now, just ask yourself, is that a bias that's reasonable?
00:34:29.224 --> 00:34:32.995
When you already think we're in a universe that came into
00:34:32.995 --> 00:34:35.864
Existence from nothing?
00:34:35.864 --> 00:34:38.267
Where you're already in a form of supernaturalism?
00:34:38.267 --> 00:34:41.303
The only question is, is this a reasonable extension of that?
00:34:41.303 --> 00:34:44.907
Kirk: that's right.
00:34:44.907 --> 00:34:46.241
Jay: so, i was already there.
00:34:46.241 --> 00:34:47.576
I just needed to have--take that burden off.
00:34:47.576 --> 00:34:49.745
Is it reasonable there's something acting in the universe
00:34:49.745 --> 00:34:52.781
Outside of space, time and matter?
00:34:52.781 --> 00:34:54.116
Yes, there is something, it's reasonable.
00:34:54.116 --> 00:34:55.751
Because we already believe that's the only reason why
00:34:55.751 --> 00:34:57.619
We're here.
00:34:57.619 --> 00:34:58.954
So, now, the question becomes, could that agent act in its
00:34:58.954 --> 00:35:03.659
Own creation?
00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:04.993
Look, i can stop gravity by holding it.
00:35:04.993 --> 00:35:06.395
I'm a finite human.
00:35:06.395 --> 00:35:08.130
You don't think the author of gravity could do something even
00:35:08.130 --> 00:35:10.065
More dramatic?
00:35:10.065 --> 00:35:11.400
Of course he could.
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:12.768
And that just opened the door for me to at least be fair.
00:35:12.768 --> 00:35:15.637
And now i can test the accounts, this question still is, if i
00:35:15.637 --> 00:35:19.675
Test them, do they hold up as reliable eyewitness accounts?
00:35:19.675 --> 00:35:22.644
That's what we try to write about.
00:35:22.644 --> 00:35:24.213
So, you still have to test them.
00:35:24.213 --> 00:35:25.614
But the idea that you would just knock them off the table, just
00:35:25.614 --> 00:35:29.518
From the start because you don't believe in anything
00:35:29.518 --> 00:35:31.486
Extra-natural, well, ask yourself, do you really not
00:35:31.486 --> 00:35:34.590
Believe in anything extra natural?
00:35:34.590 --> 00:35:36.124
Do you think you have a mind or just a brain that's firing right
00:35:36.124 --> 00:35:39.394
Now, and you have no control over that brain because
00:35:39.394 --> 00:35:41.463
It's physical?
00:35:41.463 --> 00:35:42.798
Or do you think you're making free decisions right now with an
00:35:42.798 --> 00:35:45.467
Immaterial mind?
00:35:45.467 --> 00:35:47.169
Well, then you already believe in something that's outside of
00:35:47.169 --> 00:35:49.371
Space, time, and matter because immaterial things cannot be
00:35:49.371 --> 00:35:52.007
Accounted for with just space, time, and matter.
00:35:52.007 --> 00:35:54.543
And that's why, i think, it's reasonable for us to at least
00:35:54.543 --> 00:35:57.446
Begin to embrace the possibility there's something outside
00:35:57.446 --> 00:36:00.182
Of nature.
00:36:00.182 --> 00:36:01.550
Kirk: this might feel like a whiplash in terms of the topics
00:36:01.550 --> 00:36:06.688
We're talking about.
00:36:06.688 --> 00:36:08.023
But is it possible for someone to come to the same confidence
00:36:08.023 --> 00:36:12.794
And faith in the gospel and resurrection of jesus christ,
00:36:12.794 --> 00:36:16.298
Even if they don't understand all of that?
00:36:16.298 --> 00:36:18.166
Do you have to be a j. warner wallace, a phd in all of this
00:36:18.166 --> 00:36:22.204
Stuff to be able to have assurance and confidence that
00:36:22.204 --> 00:36:25.707
This is true?
00:36:25.707 --> 00:36:27.075
Jay: no, i don't think you have to.
00:36:27.075 --> 00:36:28.410
And i think that's something we need to talk about.
00:36:28.410 --> 00:36:29.778
Because i think that is very much--look, we make decisions
00:36:29.778 --> 00:36:32.314
All the time.
00:36:32.314 --> 00:36:33.649
We ask jurors, can you make a decision with
00:36:33.649 --> 00:36:35.017
Unanswered questions?
00:36:35.017 --> 00:36:36.351
"oh, i don't think i can."
00:36:36.351 --> 00:36:37.686
Well then you're excused.
00:36:37.686 --> 00:36:39.054
I've never had a case in which i didn't have
00:36:39.054 --> 00:36:40.389
Unanswered questions.
00:36:40.389 --> 00:36:41.757
I'm always gonna ask you to make a decision even though you don't
00:36:41.757 --> 00:36:43.492
Have every question you want answered.
00:36:43.492 --> 00:36:45.394
And we do that all the time.
00:36:45.394 --> 00:36:46.962
Kirk: yeah, and we do it based off of our core beliefs, core
00:36:46.962 --> 00:36:51.066
Values, off of the evidence that we see, and knowing that a
00:36:51.066 --> 00:36:54.836
Decision has to be made.
00:36:54.836 --> 00:36:56.171
This guy is going to be set free or he is going to be convicted
00:36:56.171 --> 00:37:00.575
Guilty and punished, and i have to make a decision.
00:37:00.575 --> 00:37:03.412
And i think when it comes to jesus, we've got to make
00:37:03.412 --> 00:37:07.282
A decision.
00:37:07.282 --> 00:37:08.617
Because our eternity really does--we're the ones in the
00:37:08.617 --> 00:37:11.553
Dock, we're the ones that's going to give an account for
00:37:11.553 --> 00:37:14.156
What do we decide about jesus?
00:37:14.156 --> 00:37:15.857
We can't just put it off. no decision is a decision.
00:37:15.857 --> 00:37:19.528
And i'm so grateful that god gives guys like me,
00:37:19.528 --> 00:37:22.631
Everyday, average joes with average intelligence, the
00:37:22.631 --> 00:37:25.667
Ability to come to a conviction about the resurrection.
00:37:25.667 --> 00:37:28.804
Even if i only understand half of what you said, i know i have
00:37:28.804 --> 00:37:31.907
To make a decision and i--it would take more faith, as our
00:37:31.907 --> 00:37:36.244
Friend frank turek says, to continue to be an atheist than
00:37:36.244 --> 00:37:40.082
It would for me to believe in the resurrection,
00:37:40.082 --> 00:37:42.984
Because nothing else solves my sin problem.
00:37:42.984 --> 00:37:45.587
There is a plausible explanation beyond a reasonable doubt that
00:37:45.587 --> 00:37:49.024
Makes sense to me.
00:37:49.024 --> 00:37:50.359
I don't have a better option, and it's changing me into a
00:37:50.359 --> 00:37:53.261
New person.
00:37:53.261 --> 00:37:54.596
And i would be a fool to not believe it.
00:37:54.596 --> 00:37:57.399
Jay: that's right. that's a great way to put it.
00:37:57.399 --> 00:37:59.434
Kirk: oh man, i wanna get into so much more about this booklet.
00:37:59.434 --> 00:38:03.171
We will be right back with j. warner to talk about how to
00:38:03.171 --> 00:38:06.074
Share the love of jesus and what he did for us on the cross with
00:38:06.074 --> 00:38:10.212
Others who don't believe.
00:38:10.212 --> 00:38:12.447
So stay with us.
00:38:12.447 --> 00:38:19.005
So stay with us.
00:38:19.005 --> 00:38:19.889
Kirk: we're back.
00:38:26.829 --> 00:38:28.064
J. warner wallace is our guest today, and we're talking about
00:38:28.197 --> 00:38:30.099
The resurrection of jesus and how, as believers, we can
00:38:30.233 --> 00:38:33.236
Persuade others of this great miracle.
00:38:33.369 --> 00:38:34.070
Jay, i wanna go back to my fundamental objection to the
00:38:36.873 --> 00:38:42.278
Gospel as an early christian.
00:38:42.278 --> 00:38:43.646
And that was, how do i know the whole thing's not just made up
00:38:43.646 --> 00:38:45.848
By a really great author that foisted this fairy tale
00:38:45.848 --> 00:38:48.851
On people?
00:38:48.851 --> 00:38:50.186
For example, if i tell my children the story of the
00:38:50.186 --> 00:38:53.689
"chronicles of narnia" from the very beginning, they don't know
00:38:53.689 --> 00:38:57.193
Any different.
00:38:57.193 --> 00:38:58.528
Could it be that there was this story taught to people in a
00:38:58.528 --> 00:39:03.065
Generation that just continued so long, they never questioned
00:39:03.065 --> 00:39:06.068
It, and now here we are today?
00:39:06.068 --> 00:39:07.837
Jay: okay, so you are stubborn.
00:39:07.837 --> 00:39:09.172
I'll tell you, that's good for you.
00:39:09.172 --> 00:39:10.506
That's--it's good to be skeptical, right?
00:39:10.506 --> 00:39:11.874
'cause i'm stubborn too, and i just needed to know, okay, so
00:39:11.874 --> 00:39:13.476
How do i test?
00:39:13.476 --> 00:39:14.811
Look, i get witnesses all the time, they're not reliable.
00:39:14.811 --> 00:39:17.246
People are often motivated to lie, and i don't wanna discover
00:39:17.246 --> 00:39:19.849
That when i get in front of a jury.
00:39:19.849 --> 00:39:21.417
I wanna know long before i get in front of a jury this guy's
00:39:21.417 --> 00:39:24.187
Actually telling me the truth.
00:39:24.187 --> 00:39:25.521
So, here's what we do in california.
00:39:25.521 --> 00:39:26.889
It's pretty simple.
00:39:26.889 --> 00:39:28.224
We have a jury instruction in which we tell jurors that when
00:39:28.224 --> 00:39:30.893
You are assessing a witness on the stand, no problem.
00:39:30.893 --> 00:39:34.163
We have these 13 questions you can ask yourself when you're
00:39:34.163 --> 00:39:36.866
Assessing the witness.
00:39:36.866 --> 00:39:38.234
The 13 questions come down to 4 categories.
00:39:38.234 --> 00:39:40.803
I know to test a witness, to see if they're telling me the truth,
00:39:40.803 --> 00:39:44.106
They have to pass the test in those 4 areas.
00:39:44.106 --> 00:39:46.843
Here they are: were they really there to see what they said
00:39:46.843 --> 00:39:48.878
They saw?
00:39:48.878 --> 00:39:50.246
2, can they be corroborated in some way?
00:39:50.246 --> 00:39:52.648
3, have they changed their story over time?
00:39:52.648 --> 00:39:55.251
And 4, do they have a reason to lie to me, a motive?
00:39:55.251 --> 00:39:58.454
So, those are the 4 criteria.
00:39:58.454 --> 00:40:00.089
Now, i have read through the gospels, and like you, i'm
00:40:00.089 --> 00:40:02.492
Thinking, "yeah, this is a story, like
00:40:02.492 --> 00:40:04.026
A lot of other stories.
00:40:04.026 --> 00:40:05.361
Why would i believe this?" well, we gotta test it.
00:40:05.361 --> 00:40:06.696
We gotta test it under those 4 criteria.
00:40:06.696 --> 00:40:08.831
Number 1, were they really there to see what they said they saw?
00:40:08.831 --> 00:40:11.300
I had to go back and ask myself, is there good internal and
00:40:11.300 --> 00:40:13.903
External evidence to demonstrate that they are written within the
00:40:13.903 --> 00:40:16.739
Lifetime of eyewitnesses.
00:40:16.739 --> 00:40:18.608
Again, it's easier to write a lie if everyone knows the truth
00:40:18.608 --> 00:40:22.278
Is dead.
00:40:22.278 --> 00:40:23.613
If i'm writing this in the 1st century, if i'm writing this
00:40:23.613 --> 00:40:25.615
Within the lifetime of eyewitnesses, not only will
00:40:25.615 --> 00:40:28.317
There be somebody who actually saw it who can report it, but
00:40:28.317 --> 00:40:30.920
There will be people who would say, "well, hold on a minute.
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:33.222
I knew that jesus guy, he was none of that."
00:40:33.222 --> 00:40:35.958
Very hard to lie in front of eyewitnesses who know better.
00:40:35.958 --> 00:40:38.861
So, is it written in the region, in the 1st century?
00:40:38.861 --> 00:40:41.264
Yes, i think there's very--we talk about that a little bit
00:40:41.264 --> 00:40:43.499
Here, but there's very good reason to believe that.
00:40:43.499 --> 00:40:45.501
Just based on what is missing from books like the book of acts
00:40:45.501 --> 00:40:50.039
That never report things that happened in the 1st century that
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.175
Should be in there, why?
00:40:53.175 --> 00:40:54.510
Because they haven't happened yet.
00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:56.045
The destruction of the temple, the siege of jerusalem, 69 ad,
00:40:56.045 --> 00:40:59.682
70 ad, the death of paul, the death of peter, the death of
00:40:59.682 --> 00:41:03.586
James the brother of jesus, all happened around 61 to 65.
00:41:03.586 --> 00:41:07.957
Okay, so why are those missing?
00:41:07.957 --> 00:41:10.059
Luke writes about the death of stephen and the death of james,
00:41:10.059 --> 00:41:12.862
The brother of john.
00:41:12.862 --> 00:41:14.196
That's a nobody.
00:41:14.196 --> 00:41:15.565
Why in the world do we care about the death of james, the
00:41:15.565 --> 00:41:17.300
Brother of john?
00:41:17.300 --> 00:41:18.634
That happened in 44 ad.
00:41:18.634 --> 00:41:19.969
You left out the death of james, the brother of jesus, who led
00:41:19.969 --> 00:41:23.639
The largest church?
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:25.007
He led the first church council on acts 15.
00:41:25.007 --> 00:41:27.610
This was a heavyweight, yet you don't mention his death.
00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:30.079
We know when they died and we know how they died.
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:32.181
Why not mention it?
00:41:32.181 --> 00:41:33.516
Because it hasn't happened yet.
00:41:33.516 --> 00:41:34.884
And when you go back and see what paul talks about when he
00:41:34.884 --> 00:41:38.187
Writes to timothy in 1 timothy, when he writes to the church in
00:41:38.187 --> 00:41:41.824
Corinth, he quotes from the gospel of luke.
00:41:41.824 --> 00:41:44.527
Apparently it's available to him as early as 53 when he's writing
00:41:44.527 --> 00:41:48.297
To the church in corinth.
00:41:48.297 --> 00:41:49.832
Okay, we've got good reasons.
00:41:49.832 --> 00:41:51.334
Kirk: they were really there--
00:41:51.334 --> 00:41:53.202
And they saw what they said they saw.
00:41:53.202 --> 00:41:54.537
Jay: now how do you corroborate them?
00:41:54.537 --> 00:41:55.871
Well, you gotta corrupt them a number of ways.
00:41:55.871 --> 00:41:57.206
You can corroborate them from internal and external evidence.
00:41:57.206 --> 00:41:58.541
For example, it just so happens that these writers happen to
00:41:58.541 --> 00:42:01.544
Mention all of the first names that were actually used in the
00:42:01.544 --> 00:42:06.015
Region of judea that we happen to know from other
00:42:06.015 --> 00:42:08.851
Historical accounts.
00:42:08.851 --> 00:42:10.219
For example, if they were writing these from, say, egypt
00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:12.688
In the 2nd century, popular jewish names in egypt in the 2nd
00:42:12.688 --> 00:42:16.292
Century were very different.
00:42:16.292 --> 00:42:17.827
We know what they are from historical documents.
00:42:17.827 --> 00:42:20.262
But they happen to mention the correct first names of people
00:42:20.262 --> 00:42:23.499
Who would have lived in judea in the 1st century.
00:42:23.499 --> 00:42:26.435
They know the cities, all of the cities.
00:42:26.435 --> 00:42:28.671
You know the late gnostic gospels?
00:42:28.671 --> 00:42:30.539
They know jerusalem, that's about it.
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:32.708
They don't know any of the minor cities, but the gospel authors
00:42:32.708 --> 00:42:35.411
Do, why?
00:42:35.411 --> 00:42:36.746
Because they're there in the 1st century.
00:42:36.746 --> 00:42:38.180
We've got archaeology that supports all of these towns.
00:42:38.180 --> 00:42:41.317
You can draw maps of 1st century judea, why?
00:42:41.317 --> 00:42:44.987
Because it turns out that the descriptions that are in
00:42:44.987 --> 00:42:47.523
Scripture are actually true.
00:42:47.523 --> 00:42:49.458
Those cities actually exist.
00:42:49.458 --> 00:42:51.661
We have the coinage, we have all the names, like politarchs.
00:42:51.661 --> 00:42:55.131
Luke mentions a politarch.
00:42:55.131 --> 00:42:56.732
Nobody thought that was a real person until we found the
00:42:56.732 --> 00:42:58.868
Archaeological evidence that supports his account.
00:42:58.868 --> 00:43:01.804
So, there's ways to corroborate what's being written about even
00:43:01.804 --> 00:43:04.774
In the 1st century.
00:43:04.774 --> 00:43:06.108
Third thing, does it change over time?
00:43:06.108 --> 00:43:07.543
Well, we talked about that a minute ago.
00:43:07.543 --> 00:43:09.211
We know it hasn't--the story hasn't changed over time.
00:43:09.211 --> 00:43:11.514
And finally, why would these people be willing to die for
00:43:11.514 --> 00:43:15.885
What they would know is a lie?
00:43:15.885 --> 00:43:17.486
Now look, kirk, if you and i said we're christians and i am
00:43:17.486 --> 00:43:21.290
Willing today, right now, in this century, in this year, i'm
00:43:21.290 --> 00:43:24.860
Willing to die for what i know is true about jesus, i think you
00:43:24.860 --> 00:43:28.130
Would say that too.
00:43:28.130 --> 00:43:29.498
Okay, our deaths for the claim have no evidential power because
00:43:29.498 --> 00:43:35.504
Many people die for what they don't know is a lie.
00:43:35.504 --> 00:43:38.574
They'll fly planes into buildings.
00:43:38.574 --> 00:43:41.310
Kirk: yeah.
00:43:41.310 --> 00:43:42.645
Jay: but this would be the one group that would know if it's
00:43:42.645 --> 00:43:44.814
A lie.
00:43:44.814 --> 00:43:46.182
Different than us.
00:43:46.182 --> 00:43:47.516
We don't--we have to trust them.
00:43:47.516 --> 00:43:48.884
Kirk: not many people will die for what they know is a lie--
00:43:48.884 --> 00:43:50.619
Jay: they know is a lie.
00:43:50.619 --> 00:43:51.954
And we're talking about how many?
00:43:51.954 --> 00:43:53.289
At least 500, 500 plus the 120 in acts 1 plus the 12 and 70.
00:43:53.289 --> 00:43:56.992
I mean how many are we talking about here?
00:43:56.992 --> 00:43:58.461
Don't know.
00:43:58.461 --> 00:43:59.795
It's a large group that are willing to die for this claim.
00:43:59.795 --> 00:44:02.998
We have no evidence from any non-christian early history of
00:44:02.998 --> 00:44:06.902
The 1st century that any of these disciples died in any
00:44:06.902 --> 00:44:10.372
Other way.
00:44:10.372 --> 00:44:11.741
The only descriptions we have of their deaths are all martyrdoms.
00:44:11.741 --> 00:44:15.778
They went to their death because they knew it was true.
00:44:15.778 --> 00:44:18.948
Now look, you might get one person to do that, but everyone?
00:44:18.948 --> 00:44:23.085
Everyone?
00:44:23.085 --> 00:44:24.453
So, in the end, these 4 criteria, what do you do if it
00:44:24.453 --> 00:44:27.089
Passes the test in those 4 criteria?
00:44:27.089 --> 00:44:28.657
What do you do with it?
00:44:28.657 --> 00:44:30.025
You can still choose.
00:44:30.025 --> 00:44:31.827
Look, in the end, we always say this, you and i would probably
00:44:31.827 --> 00:44:34.697
Both say it, that the gospel has all of the power.
00:44:34.697 --> 00:44:37.500
It does.
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:38.868
It's the gospel that changes people's hearts.
00:44:38.868 --> 00:44:41.237
But as an atheist, i couldn't hear it.
00:44:41.237 --> 00:44:44.940
It sounded like blah blah blah blah blah, why?
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:47.543
Because i had so many objections standing between me and the
00:44:47.543 --> 00:44:51.447
Power of the gospel.
00:44:51.447 --> 00:44:52.782
That's why we write books, not because we think this has power.
00:44:52.782 --> 00:44:55.417
My case has zero power.
00:44:55.417 --> 00:44:58.287
The gospel has all the power.
00:44:58.287 --> 00:44:59.722
But my case hopefully, will open your ears so you can hear and
00:44:59.722 --> 00:45:04.794
See what you couldn't hear or see before.
00:45:04.794 --> 00:45:07.363
Kirk: that's what this kind of evidence did for me as
00:45:07.363 --> 00:45:09.598
An atheist.
00:45:09.598 --> 00:45:11.567
It didn't provide me with the absolute silver bullet that
00:45:11.567 --> 00:45:17.273
Demonstrated that there was no chance it couldn't be true, but
00:45:17.273 --> 00:45:22.444
It opened the door for me to be able to step in by faith and
00:45:22.444 --> 00:45:27.650
Recognize that there is no other better explanation for what
00:45:27.650 --> 00:45:31.954
Happened to jesus, or for what was happening to me as i began
00:45:31.954 --> 00:45:36.425
To change as a follower of jesus.
00:45:36.425 --> 00:45:38.928
Jay: yeah, i kind of use this analogy.
00:45:38.928 --> 00:45:40.596
I hope it's helpful for people.
00:45:40.596 --> 00:45:41.964
I always tell people, and we would say this in front of
00:45:41.964 --> 00:45:43.933
A jury.
00:45:43.933 --> 00:45:45.267
We'd say, look, okay, here's a suspect sitting here, great.
00:45:45.267 --> 00:45:46.769
I have this evidence trail.
00:45:46.769 --> 00:45:48.137
It leads right to the suspect, not a foot to the left, not a
00:45:48.137 --> 00:45:51.207
Foot to the right of the suspect.
00:45:51.207 --> 00:45:52.541
But it stopped short, i get it.
00:45:52.541 --> 00:45:54.210
You know, it stops short because i don't have everything
00:45:54.210 --> 00:45:55.778
You'd like.
00:45:55.778 --> 00:45:57.246
And but it's not like it points right to him, but it stops a few
00:45:57.246 --> 00:46:00.916
Links short because those are your unanswered questions.
00:46:00.916 --> 00:46:03.552
I'm gonna ask you to render a verdict by stepping across your
00:46:03.552 --> 00:46:07.456
Unanswered questions in light of all of this clear evidence to
00:46:07.456 --> 00:46:11.493
Render a verdict.
00:46:11.493 --> 00:46:12.862
Same thing here.
00:46:12.862 --> 00:46:14.196
This is pointing right to jesus, not a foot to the left, not a
00:46:14.196 --> 00:46:16.265
Foot to the right.
00:46:16.265 --> 00:46:17.633
It's gonna stop short though.
00:46:17.633 --> 00:46:19.068
It's gonna stop short because your unanswered questions are in
00:46:19.068 --> 00:46:21.403
That gap.
00:46:21.403 --> 00:46:22.771
I'm gonna ask you to take a step of faith, but it's
00:46:22.771 --> 00:46:24.373
Not uninformed.
00:46:24.373 --> 00:46:25.708
It's not faith in despite evidence to the contrary, it's
00:46:25.708 --> 00:46:28.844
Not faith with no evidence at all.
00:46:28.844 --> 00:46:30.980
It's faith with evidence that, like every single case you'll
00:46:30.980 --> 00:46:33.949
Ever encounter, stops short of the goal.
00:46:33.949 --> 00:46:36.819
You have to make a decision and step across that gap.
00:46:36.819 --> 00:46:39.455
And what's in that gap?
00:46:39.455 --> 00:46:40.890
All of my questions about predestination, and about the
00:46:40.890 --> 00:46:44.093
Sovereignty of god, and man's free agency, and end times, and
00:46:44.093 --> 00:46:48.030
All of the questions we have that we would say those are
00:46:48.030 --> 00:46:50.733
Interesting, but we're not gonna be able to settle those in
00:46:50.733 --> 00:46:52.935
This lifetime.
00:46:52.935 --> 00:46:54.303
By the way, you know when those questions get answered in
00:46:54.303 --> 00:46:55.771
Criminal cases?
00:46:55.771 --> 00:46:57.106
When the suspect confesses.
00:46:57.106 --> 00:46:58.440
And often he does.
00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:00.276
You know what's gonna be the answer for us when god tells us
00:47:00.276 --> 00:47:02.912
The answer, when god confesses to what all that was about?
00:47:02.912 --> 00:47:06.615
We're not gonna have that answer until somebody tells us.
00:47:06.615 --> 00:47:09.885
And that's okay, that's true for everything in life, it's also
00:47:09.885 --> 00:47:12.821
True for our spiritual journey.
00:47:12.821 --> 00:47:14.623
Kirk: so, jay, what is the best approach, do you think, for us
00:47:14.623 --> 00:47:19.228
To speak to our unbelieving family members and friends?
00:47:19.228 --> 00:47:22.264
Do we go through all the evidence and talk about
00:47:22.264 --> 00:47:24.166
Abductive reasoning and the chain of custody, or do i ask
00:47:24.166 --> 00:47:28.404
Good questions about what they think happens in the afterlife?
00:47:28.404 --> 00:47:32.641
Jay: yeah, no, i think you hit it.
00:47:32.641 --> 00:47:34.009
What i would ask is, okay, you know, i would say it this way.
00:47:34.009 --> 00:47:36.478
I think--i'm a believer because i believe that jesus rose from
00:47:36.478 --> 00:47:38.847
The grave, but i understand that's a big ask.
00:47:38.847 --> 00:47:40.649
It's a big claim.
00:47:40.649 --> 00:47:42.051
Have you thought about it? yes.
00:47:42.051 --> 00:47:43.619
Okay, so what is it that for you is like, yeah,
00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:45.854
I can't accept it because x.
00:47:45.854 --> 00:47:47.856
What is your x--
00:47:47.856 --> 00:47:49.191
That is, the thing that's keeping you from believing?
00:47:49.191 --> 00:47:51.026
Now, once you know what the x is, we have to be ready to say,
00:47:51.026 --> 00:47:54.296
Okay, well, here's how i overcame that.
00:47:54.296 --> 00:47:56.565
Here, i've had that.
00:47:56.565 --> 00:47:57.900
Look, i had all those five, six questions.
00:47:57.900 --> 00:47:59.568
All those five or six alternative explanations.
00:47:59.568 --> 00:48:01.537
I held all of them at one time or another.
00:48:01.537 --> 00:48:03.605
And by the way, if you would have knocked down one, i
00:48:03.605 --> 00:48:05.274
Probably would have gone to the other.
00:48:05.274 --> 00:48:06.608
And i probably had knocked down that and go to the third.
00:48:06.608 --> 00:48:08.243
I mean, i was stubborn, okay?
00:48:08.243 --> 00:48:09.878
But i think it's fair to ask our unbelieving friends, like what
00:48:09.878 --> 00:48:12.581
Is it that's keeping you from thinking something as crazy--
00:48:12.581 --> 00:48:15.651
Because i get it, it sounds crazy--as crazy as a
00:48:15.651 --> 00:48:18.087
Resurrection really happened?
00:48:18.087 --> 00:48:19.655
And then once you know what their objection is, are we
00:48:19.655 --> 00:48:22.591
Equipped to simply address the objection?
00:48:22.591 --> 00:48:25.461
And that's what we do with these little booklets.
00:48:25.461 --> 00:48:28.230
Kirk: how about for people who want to concede that jesus is
00:48:28.230 --> 00:48:31.867
A way?
00:48:31.867 --> 00:48:33.235
I think i heard oprah say this once in one of her talks that
00:48:33.235 --> 00:48:37.039
Clearly jesus can't be the only way.
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:39.308
He was a way for those people at that time, but there's billions
00:48:39.308 --> 00:48:42.544
Of people in other continents who've never even heard
00:48:42.544 --> 00:48:45.347
About jesus.
00:48:45.347 --> 00:48:46.715
How do we help them?
00:48:46.715 --> 00:48:48.050
Jay: well, okay, so, it seems unreasonable and almost
00:48:48.050 --> 00:48:50.052
Exclusive to say that jesus is the only way to the father, even
00:48:50.052 --> 00:48:52.755
Though he clearly said this, "i am the only way to the father,"
00:48:52.755 --> 00:48:55.424
Okay, "there's no other way except through me."
00:48:55.424 --> 00:48:57.459
Well, that makes sense, here's why.
00:48:57.459 --> 00:48:59.528
If i said, okay, i really wanna know kirk cameron.
00:48:59.528 --> 00:49:02.197
I have to know kirk cameron through kirk cameron.
00:49:02.197 --> 00:49:05.100
You're the only one who can reveal yourself to me.
00:49:05.100 --> 00:49:07.336
It's not--
00:49:07.336 --> 00:49:08.670
Kirk: makes sense.
00:49:08.670 --> 00:49:10.039
Jay: okay, well, the reason why jesus is the only way to god is
00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:12.408
Because jesus is the god that we're talking about, right?
00:49:12.408 --> 00:49:16.045
So, the resurrection demonstrates that jesus is more
00:49:16.045 --> 00:49:18.614
Than a prophet who can point you to god.
00:49:18.614 --> 00:49:20.849
He is the god of the universe, who has the power to work the
00:49:20.849 --> 00:49:24.653
Miracles and rise from the grave.
00:49:24.653 --> 00:49:27.222
Jesus is the only way to god because jesus is the god who
00:49:27.222 --> 00:49:30.826
You're trying to find.
00:49:30.826 --> 00:49:32.161
Kirk: that's all that jesus would say.
00:49:32.161 --> 00:49:33.529
Jay: the same way you're the only way to you, it turns out
00:49:33.529 --> 00:49:36.031
God comes incarnate, presents himself to us, so we can
00:49:36.031 --> 00:49:40.169
Know him.
00:49:40.169 --> 00:49:42.604
Kirk: jay, what's the big takeaway you want people to get
00:49:42.604 --> 00:49:47.509
From reading "case closed"?
00:49:47.509 --> 00:49:48.911
Jay: we do a lot of evidence in this little booklet, but at the
00:49:48.911 --> 00:49:51.046
Very end, it's the gospel-- plain and simple--
00:49:51.046 --> 00:49:53.715
That jesus came, died the death that we don't have to die to pay
00:49:53.715 --> 00:49:56.885
The price for the sins that we don't want to pay so we get the
00:49:56.885 --> 00:49:59.088
Heaven that we don't deserve, that only he deserves.
00:49:59.088 --> 00:50:01.757
That substitution is so important, and all we wanna do
00:50:01.757 --> 00:50:04.993
Is get to the gospel.
00:50:04.993 --> 00:50:06.528
We hope a booklet like this simply clears the brush, knocks
00:50:06.528 --> 00:50:09.765
Down the barriers so you can hear the gospel.
00:50:09.765 --> 00:50:12.000
Kirk: yeah, what a great way to get into a conversation.
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.069
Hand this little booklet to someone and say, "read this, i
00:50:14.069 --> 00:50:15.904
Wanna talk with you over a cup of coffee or whatever."
00:50:15.904 --> 00:50:19.374
I'm gonna do it. jay, thanks so much.
00:50:19.374 --> 00:50:21.343
Jay: appreciate you, brother.
00:50:21.343 --> 00:50:22.678
Kirk: thank you.
00:50:22.678 --> 00:50:24.012
After the break, we'll review today's "takeaways."
00:50:24.012 --> 00:50:31.003
After the break, we'll review today's "takeaways."
00:50:31.003 --> 00:50:31.821
Kirk: what an incredible conversation with cold case
00:50:38.761 --> 00:50:41.297
Detective and christian apologist j. warner wallace
00:50:41.431 --> 00:50:44.501
About the resurrection of jesus.
00:50:44.601 --> 00:50:46.903
Jay brought his investigative expertise to the most important
00:50:47.003 --> 00:50:48.071
Claim in human history and showed us why the evidence holds
00:50:50.607 --> 00:50:54.310
Up beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:50:54.310 --> 00:50:56.412
Which brings us to our first takeaway.
00:50:56.412 --> 00:51:00.150
Reasonable doubt, not possible doubt.
00:51:00.150 --> 00:51:03.186
Jay explains that belief is based on reasonable certainty,
00:51:03.186 --> 00:51:07.590
Not absolute proof.
00:51:07.590 --> 00:51:10.326
Just as juries convict beyond a reasonable doubt, not all
00:51:10.326 --> 00:51:14.164
Possible doubt, faith also relies on strong evidence,
00:51:14.164 --> 00:51:18.868
Not perfection.
00:51:18.868 --> 00:51:20.904
Demanding total proof would freeze us.
00:51:20.904 --> 00:51:23.873
We'd never drive, fly, or trust anyone.
00:51:23.873 --> 00:51:27.443
The resurrection meets that standard through eyewitnesses,
00:51:27.443 --> 00:51:31.181
Early documents, and the disciples' willingness to die
00:51:31.181 --> 00:51:34.484
For their claim.
00:51:34.484 --> 00:51:35.818
Faith doesn't ignore evidence, it responds to it.
00:51:35.818 --> 00:51:40.623
The story never changed.
00:51:40.623 --> 00:51:43.026
Using the detective idea of a chain of custody, jay shows how
00:51:43.026 --> 00:51:47.530
The resurrection story has stayed intact through time.
00:51:47.530 --> 00:51:51.167
Different authors, different regions all tell the same story,
00:51:51.167 --> 00:51:54.771
Unchanged, consistent, and credible.
00:51:54.771 --> 00:51:58.007
The gospel's preserved testimony points directly to jesus, making
00:51:58.007 --> 00:52:02.712
The resurrection unique among all faiths.
00:52:02.712 --> 00:52:06.449
If jesus truly rose, everything changes.
00:52:06.449 --> 00:52:10.019
Our faith is not blind, it's informed by reliable evidence
00:52:10.019 --> 00:52:15.358
Passed down through generations.
00:52:15.358 --> 00:52:17.760
Ask good questions. what's your x?
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:21.764
To reach unbelievers, jay said, start by
00:52:21.764 --> 00:52:25.168
Asking, what's keeping you from believing jesus rose?
00:52:25.168 --> 00:52:29.405
What's your x? find their obstacles.
00:52:29.405 --> 00:52:32.609
Evidence helps remove barriers, but remember, only the gospel
00:52:32.609 --> 00:52:37.013
Transforms hearts.
00:52:37.013 --> 00:52:38.948
So, clear the path with truth, then trust the gospel to do what
00:52:38.948 --> 00:52:43.386
Only it can, bring new life.
00:52:43.386 --> 00:52:47.323
Well, that's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:47.323 --> 00:52:49.425
Thanks for watching.
00:52:49.425 --> 00:52:50.793
And if you've enjoyed this show, don't forget to set your dvr to
00:52:50.793 --> 00:52:54.364
Never miss an episode.
00:52:54.364 --> 00:52:55.999
And, of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:55.999 --> 00:52:59.002
Searching for "takeaways" on tbn+ or by visiting
00:52:59.002 --> 00:53:03.373
The "kirk cameron on tbn" youtube channel.
00:53:03.373 --> 00:53:06.142
We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
00:53:06.142 --> 00:53:06.142

J. Warner Wallace: Convincing Evidence for the Resurrection | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

March 30, 2026 | 53:25

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