Joe Dobbins & Dr. Carmen Joy Imes: Healing From Church Hurt | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

July 13, 2026 | S1 E181 | 53:25

Kirk Cameron is joined by Joe Dobbins and Dr. Carmen Joy Imes to discuss how to heal from being hurt by the church and the importance of re-engaging with a community of believers.

#Church #Hurting #Healing #Abuse #Relationships #Peopleinyourlife #Forgiveness #SpiritualGrowth #Author #Culture #Trauma #KirkCameron

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Joe Dobbins & Dr. Carmen Joy Imes: Healing From Church Hurt | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | July 13, 2026

Kirk cameron: do you remember this children's nursery rhyme
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"here's the church, and here's the steeple, open the door and
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See all the people"?
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This really gets to the heart of what church is about.
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It's about community, about you and me.
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But what do you do when you've been hurt by those people in
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The church?
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If i don't feel comfortable going to church, can't watching
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The worship service online be good enough?
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These are questions that we hope to answer today with our guest,
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Joe dobbins, who will share about healing from church hurt
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And carmen joy imes, reminding us that meeting together as the
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Family of god is crucial for mutual encouragement and
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Spiritual growth.
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Pastor joe dobbins: every ungodly thing done by a leader,
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It started when we lost the reality that god sees, he knows,
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And that he will hold us to justice.
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Dr. carmen joy imes: because the whole point of gathering people
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Around the table is that we're no longer divided by class,
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By race, by gender.
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We're gathering around like equals at the foot of the cross.
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Kirk: it's all happening right now on "takeaways."
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♪♪♪
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Kirk: having helped many people move from anger and heartache
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To safely re-engaging in their faith with god and in the local
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Church, my first guest, pastor joe dobbins, offers wisdom and
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Practical advice from his latest book, "hope after church hurt:
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How to heal, reengage, and rediscover god's heart for you."
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Pastor, thanks so much for joining us on "takeaways."
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Joe: honored to be here, thank you.
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Kirk: i--i'm really glad that you wrote this book and you're
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Here to talk with us about it because church hurt is kind of
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A new phrase, but it's become quite popular over the last
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Couple of years.
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And those who've experienced it know exactly what it means, but
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Others of us are sort of like, what is this?
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It sounds like somebody's whining about the church and
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That's why they don't go to church, so define it for us.
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Joe: well, simply said, i think it's when you have been wounded
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In a place of worship.
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And here's the complexity of it, is that imagine that you go to
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A hospital and that you're there to have a procedure done for a
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Preexisting condition.
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And then you have the procedure, but then they come in and tell
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You due to the negligence of a staff member, a doctor, a nurse,
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You--they did not fix the condition and now you have a
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Compounding condition.
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So the issue is now you've lost confidence in the institution
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That's actually meant to help you heal, so now there's a
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Complexity that has to be undone in order for you to get back
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On track.
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I think that's what church hurt represents.
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And you know, some studies show us in america today, 65 million
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People once regularly attended church and no longer do.
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That's roughly as many people that still attend church in
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America, so today we need churches that reach the lost and
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We need churches that heal the found.
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Kirk: well, i'll tell you why i struggle with the chur--the term
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"church hurt" is that on one side there's this group of
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People who wanna use the fact that they've been mistreated by
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Church people as an excuse to deconstruct their faith or to
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Say why it's all a bunch of bunk and they're not gonna go to
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Church and they don't believe in god.
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And then other people like to pile onto that bandwagon and all
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Of a sudden it's me too, me too, me too, me too, and now we got a
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Whole another me too movement that allows people to just chuck
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Church and got out the window.
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So like i hate that victim mentality and yet on the other
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Side, it's very real because i know firsthand that the church
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Breeds abuse.
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Not all churches, but in some churches, particularly heavily
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Religious, legalistic denominations and institutions
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Where there is sexual abuse, there is religious spiritual
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Abuse and marriage relationships and with families, and that
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Stuff is wicked, evil, and traumatic for people.
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So, anyone who's experienced pain in a church has a deeply
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Personal story, so how many kinds of church hurt, abuse,
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Trauma would you say that there are in a church?
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Joe: well, i don't know that we could even name all of them.
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My book covers eight, and i think that even acknowledging
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That is a beginning for many people.
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I think that just adding a name to rejection or a toxic leader
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Or something like that they were wounded by words or isolation,
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Just giving them some verbiage to start to move around,
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I think, really matters.
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I'll never forget standing in the lobby of our church when
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A lady came up to me.
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And i could tell she was uncomfortable, and i approached
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Her and engaged her.
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And i could tell she had great anxiety, which i thought was
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Odd, you're supposed to be in a place called sanctuary and yet
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She's manifesting this very concerned look.
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And as i got to talk to her, she expounded on that she'd come out
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Of years of heavy legalism where they had put more rules on her
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Than honestly scriptural principles, she was--had come
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Out of a divorce.
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And here's what she said to me, kirk.
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She said, "i love jesus, but i can't stand the church."
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And i thought, right there is someone who we need to go on
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A healing journey with because, how can you follow jesus and
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Somehow end up far from his church?
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And we need to reconcile that.
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Kirk: yeah, i think a lot of people would say well, i--i'm
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Not sure this is his church because it sure doesn't look
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A lot like the church's professed leader.
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In fact, just before we started talking, i remembered a quote
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From mahatma gandhi.
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And this was written in the "harvard crimson," 1927, where
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They were talking with gandhi and he said--famously said, "i
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Like your christ.
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I do not like your christians.
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Your christians are so unlike your christ."
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Now, whether he said that or not, i think a lot of people
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Feel that way as they look and they say, "what--what's
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Going on?
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You know, you guys seem to use this spiritual authority as
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Manipulation power to fleece people, to take their money,
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To take advantage of people, control people."
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And religion has always been used as an opiate for the
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Masses, but i don't want to believe that the church of
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Jesus christ is that at heart.
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It is really difficult and yet i love the church, i want to be
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Part of the bride of christ and i want to fellowship with
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Other--with other christians.
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So when you get raked over the coals, you get thrown to the
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Wolves by church people, it's so terribly injurious.
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And it's also so disappointing and it can lead toward
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Hopelessness because you go, well, where else am i gonna go?
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Joe: right, well, i think one of the things that you have
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To start with is remembering that you probably look like
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Jesus when you're enduring that because it was a religious mob
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And a conspiracy that led to his crucifixion, so nobody
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Understands church hurt like jesus does.
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And sometimes when we talk about being like jesus, we mean in his
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Kindness or his gentleness.
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What also means in his suffering, we know that.
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Now i'm not saying that it's god's will that people go
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Through church hurt, but i am saying this, god can use it.
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I am unbelievably blown away how god comes into the worst
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Scenarios, how he comes into people who've endured
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Awful abuses.
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Situations in church communities that have been devastated by
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Leaders and by ungodliness, and somehow god comes in and begins
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To birth something fresh and new that has a desire for truth and
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Purity, and so i think it's worth the fight.
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Jesus is the head of the church, he died for the church, he's
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Returning again for the church.
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I think we should join him in making it what it was supposed
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To be.
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Kirk: well, i'm glad you wrote this book that acknowledges the
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Injury and the trauma that people have endured from the
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People that should be helping them.
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The nurses and doctors that should be promoting healing are
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Doing the things creating the compounding problems.
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When people experience this kind of trauma at church and conclude
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That the church is full of hypocrites or it's just not a
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Place for me and then they stay away from other christians, are
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They missing something that's essential?
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Do they need to somehow find a way back to the people of god?
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Joe: yeah, i think we have to acknowledge, especially in our
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Country--there was a dutch sociologist who did a study, and
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He looked at all the tribes and communities and places in the
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World and how they formed community.
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And he determined a scale that measured their connectedness,
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And guess what country was the most individualistic on
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The planet?
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The united states of america, and so it is in our very
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Discipleship as a country to pull back, to isolate.
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But the problem is we're--although we're citizens
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Of this country, we're actually citizens of heaven as well and
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We have to come to this place where we recognize that part of
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God's plan for us is in community.
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As a matter of fact, some of our favorite verses, kirk, are
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Really tied to community, they're not tied to
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Us individually.
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Like when jesus said, "you are the salt of the earth," the "you
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Are" is plural, it's not to an individual.
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When he says, "you're a city on a hill," it's plural.
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He doesn't say, "you're a single dwelling on the hill," he said,
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"you're a city," a place of community.
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When jesus said he was returning, he did not say he was
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Returning for individuals, he said he's returning for
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The collective.
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And so i think when we lack community, we limit the work
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Of christ in our life.
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And you know, i was in a city recently that had a wide range
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Of lanes on their expressway.
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To the far left was one that said hov, and it was for high
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Occupancy vehicles.
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So this lane has been designated for people who gather together
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And travel together, they get to go faster and further than
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Everybody else.
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To me, that's what the church is supposed to be.
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That your destiny, my destiny, our character growth, all the
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Things god intends for us, by doing it together, it happens
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Faster and we get to go further.
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Kirk: well, i wholeheartedly agree with you and i've
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Experienced that, although sometimes i still struggle to
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Have and find that kind of community, particularly at
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A church.
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Because, man, when it's good, it's great.
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When it's bad, it's awful.
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Because the last people i wanna hang out with are fake, lame,
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Religious people, they're the worst.
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But genuine believers and followers of christ who have
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Been changed and empowered by his spirit are my
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Favorite people.
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No matter what country they're from, no matter where, it's
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Like--i'm like, you and me, we, you know, we should hang out
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Because we love the same--the same jesus.
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In your book you talk about wounding words, you mentioned
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That a moment ago.
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What--what's your personal experience with that, and how
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Did you and your wife heal from that?
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Joe: yeah, so we both grew up in church, and i've had my best
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Experiences in church and i've also had some of my worst.
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I'll never forget, my wife and i were engaged and there was a lot
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Of debate in her family about us getting married.
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Maybe it was our age, maybe it was some other issues.
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But in this little local church she was a part of, it became not
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Just a family issue but everybody began to have
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An opinion.
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Well, one day my wife in genuinely seeking god, trying to
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Discern the timing of our budding relationship and the
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Idea of how to honor her mom and dad, went forward to pray at the
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Altar of her church during worship.
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All of a sudden a church leader comes up behind her and starts
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To publicly chastise her, calling her rebellious,
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Questioning her motives.
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Here she is seeking god on how to honor her parents and move
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Forward in a relationship, and someone assumed about her heart
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And publicly embarrassed her.
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It was so damaging to us because here's what happened, this is
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Supposed to be a safe place and now it's become a place where we
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Feel attacked and i--it set us back for some years.
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But i'll tell you what it did for us, is we kept attending
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Church, but our hearts were closed in church.
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And i wonder how many people are maybe here listening to us
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Today, that they're present, but their heart's not open.
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And i think that's one of the things we have to understand
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About church hurt, is that sometimes we're almost willing
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To sit with unhealed wounds more than christ is for us.
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You know, i say this, god didn't come for your partial healing,
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He came to make you whole.
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And he will continually press and prompt your heart until you
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Let him do his full work.
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Kirk: this is such an important topic.
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I wanna double-click on a couple things you just said after
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The break.
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When we come back, joe is going to discuss how to find god's
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Path to healing when you've been injured by the church.
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And then later in the program, carmen joy imes will share the
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Importance of seeking community with other believers and
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Encountering god's presence.
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So don't go away.
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Carmen: i needed to lean into the idea that we are--we are
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Invited to be part of a community of faith, that the
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Christian life was never intended to be a solo journey,
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Just me and jesus, but that god calls us into a family.
00:12:43.118 --> 00:12:52.002
Just me and jesus, but that god calls us into a family.
00:12:52.002 --> 00:12:59.369
Kirk: we're back talking with popular speaker and leadership
00:12:59.502 --> 00:13:00.570
Coach, pastor joe dobbins about his book, "hope after
00:13:02.172 --> 00:13:06.009
Church hurt."
00:13:06.009 --> 00:13:07.344
Pastor, in recent years, you and i have known of and personally
00:13:07.344 --> 00:13:12.282
Known leaders within the church that have just face-planted.
00:13:12.282 --> 00:13:16.853
They've just fallen off the cliff into moral depravity, and
00:13:16.853 --> 00:13:21.625
The wake of that has been devastating to followers who
00:13:21.625 --> 00:13:26.930
Look to them as their heroes.
00:13:26.930 --> 00:13:29.499
Why has the church been reluctant to acknowledge
00:13:29.499 --> 00:13:34.304
Transparently that we have a problem, and is it right to
00:13:34.304 --> 00:13:40.844
Expose leaders within the church?
00:13:40.844 --> 00:13:43.513
And then for the victims of that, who have been injured, how
00:13:43.513 --> 00:13:46.950
Can we help their healing?
00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:48.318
Joe: yeah, i think part of the problem we're seeing, kirk,
00:13:48.318 --> 00:13:51.955
Is that--and it's multifaceted.
00:13:51.955 --> 00:13:53.290
One of the things is this, that churches often are following
00:13:53.290 --> 00:13:56.760
More what pr firms say and how to handle crises than what
00:13:56.760 --> 00:13:59.696
Scripture says.
00:13:59.696 --> 00:14:01.064
I feel like the new testament lays out a lot of clear
00:14:01.064 --> 00:14:03.400
Principles of what to do with leaders who are qualified or
00:14:03.400 --> 00:14:06.670
Unqualified, and that we need to go--
00:14:06.670 --> 00:14:09.072
Kirk: church discipline you're talking about?
00:14:09.072 --> 00:14:10.440
Joe: right, we need to return to the scriptures.
00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:13.109
Not pr firms, necessarily, helping us govern how we handle
00:14:13.109 --> 00:14:16.680
These crisis.
00:14:16.680 --> 00:14:18.014
We're losing credibility rapidly when we continue to try to hide
00:14:18.014 --> 00:14:21.484
Things that have to be brought--these are public
00:14:21.484 --> 00:14:23.820
Leaders and they're people who have to have some
00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:26.723
Public resolve.
00:14:26.723 --> 00:14:28.058
Now if you're an individual, i think one of the first things i
00:14:28.058 --> 00:14:29.926
Always say to someone who's disappointed with a leader is,
00:14:29.926 --> 00:14:33.430
Obviously compassionately i say, you know, "i--i'm sorry you've
00:14:33.430 --> 00:14:36.466
Been through that, but it's first, an opportunity to look
00:14:36.466 --> 00:14:38.868
At self."
00:14:38.868 --> 00:14:40.236
Because we have this tendency in us to cling too highly in our
00:14:40.236 --> 00:14:45.175
Expectations of people, you know, flesh wants flesh.
00:14:45.175 --> 00:14:48.712
We don't want to--all the way back to the exodus, they wanted
00:14:48.712 --> 00:14:51.748
A god they could see, touch, smell, and the reality is we
00:14:51.748 --> 00:14:55.585
Want flesh too, so we set too much weight on it.
00:14:55.585 --> 00:14:59.122
And jesus said this, he said, "follow me," he didn't say,
00:14:59.122 --> 00:15:01.491
"follow my followers."
00:15:01.491 --> 00:15:02.826
So one of the ta--one of the things we have to come back to
00:15:02.826 --> 00:15:04.861
Is, am i putting too much expectation on an individual?
00:15:04.861 --> 00:15:08.064
If my faith crumbles because of your character, something's
00:15:08.064 --> 00:15:11.768
Wrong in that equation.
00:15:11.768 --> 00:15:13.203
Kirk: i think--i think that is--i think that's fair.
00:15:13.203 --> 00:15:16.873
I think it's right and true.
00:15:16.873 --> 00:15:20.944
Man, it's just so hard that my hero just walks back against
00:15:20.944 --> 00:15:27.183
Everything that he said.
00:15:27.183 --> 00:15:28.518
It makes me wonder, like, were you even for real?
00:15:28.518 --> 00:15:31.521
Were you like--were you just deceived?
00:15:31.521 --> 00:15:34.524
Were you deceiving intentionally, or is this just
00:15:34.524 --> 00:15:37.594
An expression of your humanity, as we talked about?
00:15:37.594 --> 00:15:40.563
Joe: well, there's a real grieving that takes
00:15:40.563 --> 00:15:42.298
Place, right?
00:15:42.298 --> 00:15:43.633
I mean, i've personally experienced it when ministers
00:15:43.633 --> 00:15:45.869
That i've esteemed and learned from and they've poured into
00:15:45.869 --> 00:15:48.838
My life.
00:15:48.838 --> 00:15:50.206
But you know what i found is, is that we take that to god, we
00:15:50.206 --> 00:15:53.209
Grieve with him and out of that, he brings us to a place where we
00:15:53.209 --> 00:15:57.247
Can walk again.
00:15:57.247 --> 00:15:58.615
I think disappointment is something that when left in the
00:15:58.615 --> 00:16:00.517
Heart is very dangerous.
00:16:00.517 --> 00:16:01.885
The bible says, "above all else, guard your heart."
00:16:01.885 --> 00:16:04.154
And i think when disappointment's allowed to
00:16:04.154 --> 00:16:05.955
Settle in our hearts, we eventually stop not just
00:16:05.955 --> 00:16:08.725
Believing in the person, but the god who placed the person.
00:16:08.725 --> 00:16:11.961
And that's why i would say to any believer listening to us
00:16:11.961 --> 00:16:14.764
Today who is disappointed with a fallen leader, you better go to
00:16:14.764 --> 00:16:18.234
God and let him work those realities out in your heart.
00:16:18.234 --> 00:16:21.237
Ask the hard questions, share the anger, the frustration, the
00:16:21.237 --> 00:16:24.240
Tears, but go and mourn with god because if you don't, the enemy
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.844
Will use it to keep you from your relationship with
00:16:27.844 --> 00:16:31.247
God eventually.
00:16:31.247 --> 00:16:33.249
Kirk: what are some practical steps that someone could take,
00:16:33.249 --> 00:16:36.853
Who has been wounded, injured, and the idea of going back to
00:16:36.853 --> 00:16:41.157
Church is like going back to an abusive spouse, where do
00:16:41.157 --> 00:16:45.595
They start?
00:16:45.595 --> 00:16:46.930
Joe: i think you start with god cares.
00:16:46.930 --> 00:16:48.665
You start with god understands, and no one was rejected more
00:16:48.665 --> 00:16:52.735
Than jesus christ.
00:16:52.735 --> 00:16:54.104
His earthly father nearly abandoned his family at the
00:16:54.104 --> 00:16:56.272
Announcement of his birth, his--the king over the province
00:16:56.272 --> 00:17:00.543
Killed all of his peers just because he hated him without
00:17:00.543 --> 00:17:02.946
Even knowing him.
00:17:02.946 --> 00:17:04.314
Get into his--every teacher rejected him, all of his
00:17:04.314 --> 00:17:07.150
Followers at some point abandoned him.
00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:09.352
His hometown tried to throw him off a cliff.
00:17:09.352 --> 00:17:10.887
His brothers and sisters said he was crazy.
00:17:10.887 --> 00:17:12.722
No one knows rejection like jesus.
00:17:12.722 --> 00:17:15.458
Therefore, he understands, but also he knows our rejection.
00:17:15.458 --> 00:17:19.162
He heard the words that were said.
00:17:19.162 --> 00:17:21.164
He saw the ungodliness.
00:17:21.164 --> 00:17:23.032
He was there and present.
00:17:23.032 --> 00:17:24.901
And out of that understanding, we do this, we first restore
00:17:24.901 --> 00:17:28.738
God's authority over our pain.
00:17:28.738 --> 00:17:31.141
You see, pain is such a strong force in our life that it wants
00:17:31.141 --> 00:17:35.512
The throne of our heart, really.
00:17:35.512 --> 00:17:37.647
It wants to make the calls on how we think, what we do, and
00:17:37.647 --> 00:17:40.717
How we treat people.
00:17:40.717 --> 00:17:42.085
So the very first thing in healing is, is do you come back
00:17:42.085 --> 00:17:44.154
And say, christ, you are at the throne of my heart.
00:17:44.154 --> 00:17:47.023
How you say we handle this is how we handle it.
00:17:47.023 --> 00:17:49.259
How you say that i talk is how i talk.
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:51.561
How i think about this will be determined by you, not by
00:17:51.561 --> 00:17:54.831
My wound.
00:17:54.831 --> 00:17:56.199
Then out of that what you're gonna find is that he's going
00:17:56.199 --> 00:17:59.335
To take you into a process where i think, one, you're gonna work
00:17:59.335 --> 00:18:02.572
On your own heart.
00:18:02.572 --> 00:18:03.940
There's gonna be this dynamic where he has to restore peace so
00:18:03.940 --> 00:18:06.643
That it can govern your heart, so that it can guide you.
00:18:06.643 --> 00:18:09.212
But he's also eventually gonna lead you to forgiveness and
00:18:09.212 --> 00:18:12.348
That's tough.
00:18:12.348 --> 00:18:13.816
But forgiveness is essential because it's the place we come
00:18:13.816 --> 00:18:17.987
To when we recognize that we are wiping our hands of this
00:18:17.987 --> 00:18:22.792
Situation and starting afresh in god's mercy.
00:18:22.792 --> 00:18:25.595
Now here's the good thing about forgiveness, it doesn't require
00:18:25.595 --> 00:18:28.198
The other person.
00:18:28.198 --> 00:18:29.699
You can forgive the person who hurt you today, right now,
00:18:29.699 --> 00:18:34.637
Because all you have to do is decide i'm erasing
00:18:34.637 --> 00:18:37.340
These conditions.
00:18:37.340 --> 00:18:38.875
We all set conditions on if they'll do this, if they'll say
00:18:38.875 --> 00:18:41.744
This, if they'll apologize for that.
00:18:41.744 --> 00:18:44.047
Erase those conditions.
00:18:44.047 --> 00:18:45.815
Now i recognize listening, you know, hearing that just makes
00:18:45.815 --> 00:18:48.585
You go, "there's no way, they," but here's what i've learned
00:18:48.585 --> 00:18:51.754
When we hold resentment, what we're really doing is holding a
00:18:51.754 --> 00:18:54.724
Record against someone, and the problem with that is that's not
00:18:54.724 --> 00:18:59.262
What christ did for us.
00:18:59.262 --> 00:19:01.531
The bible says that we were--he went and died on the cross while
00:19:01.531 --> 00:19:05.001
We were still sinners.
00:19:05.001 --> 00:19:06.502
So he erased the conditions and gave us the choice what we would
00:19:06.502 --> 00:19:10.006
Do in the future, but he erased those conditions.
00:19:10.006 --> 00:19:12.508
Now here's the second thing is once you've made a decision, i'm
00:19:12.508 --> 00:19:15.044
Gonna erase the conditions right now, i think there's a good
00:19:15.044 --> 00:19:18.948
Practice that many people miss, which is this, start praying for
00:19:18.948 --> 00:19:22.652
That person daily.
00:19:22.652 --> 00:19:24.654
Now i realize that's a high bar, but the bible doesn't say
00:19:24.654 --> 00:19:28.524
Forgive those who curse you, it says, "bless those who
00:19:28.524 --> 00:19:31.294
Curse you."
00:19:31.294 --> 00:19:32.662
And there's something that happens when i pray for kirk,
00:19:32.662 --> 00:19:35.064
Who's offended me, that the decision to forgive in my mind
00:19:35.064 --> 00:19:38.301
Gets moved to my heart through prayer.
00:19:38.301 --> 00:19:40.470
That as i pray, god be with kirk today, draw him close to you,
00:19:40.470 --> 00:19:43.506
And i--some people listening to this, they're going, "there's no
00:19:43.506 --> 00:19:45.341
Way, i couldn't even pray."
00:19:45.341 --> 00:19:46.876
It's--just start.
00:19:46.876 --> 00:19:48.211
"god, today don't kill them," you know, just start at
00:19:48.211 --> 00:19:49.846
That basics.
00:19:49.846 --> 00:19:51.180
But as you do that, the prayer is not for them, it's for you.
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:54.083
There's a heart transplant that takes place, that as you pray
00:19:54.083 --> 00:19:56.653
For your enemies, christ literally comes in and begins
00:19:56.653 --> 00:19:59.355
To work in your heart.
00:19:59.355 --> 00:20:00.723
Now, now this is the last thing i would say.
00:20:00.723 --> 00:20:04.594
We have to get to the place where we recognize jesus is the
00:20:04.594 --> 00:20:07.297
Source of our healing.
00:20:07.297 --> 00:20:08.665
And we say those things, but how do you really release your pain
00:20:08.665 --> 00:20:10.933
To christ?
00:20:10.933 --> 00:20:12.602
Here's what i've come to the conclusion of, it means i go
00:20:12.602 --> 00:20:14.737
Nowhere else but christ with this pain.
00:20:14.737 --> 00:20:17.640
When the trigger comes, i don't go to a substance.
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.209
When the memories come back, i don't go back to sex.
00:20:20.209 --> 00:20:23.379
When i feel the anxiety and i want to abandon again, i keep
00:20:23.379 --> 00:20:27.083
Coming back to christ.
00:20:27.083 --> 00:20:28.418
And what i found is over time, we come to him and he begins
00:20:28.418 --> 00:20:31.954
A healing work.
00:20:31.954 --> 00:20:33.289
The best thing about this i've learned, kirk, is this god
00:20:33.289 --> 00:20:35.391
Doesn't just heal bodies, he heals memories too.
00:20:35.391 --> 00:20:37.794
And what we do in returning to him and nowhere else--not
00:20:37.794 --> 00:20:40.830
Accomplishment or sex or experience--is that we allow him
00:20:40.830 --> 00:20:44.133
To do the work in our heart and one day you won't have to return
00:20:44.133 --> 00:20:46.536
Because he'll have your pain and you will have his peace.
00:20:46.536 --> 00:20:50.206
Kirk: i'm so glad you've written all of this down so that we can
00:20:50.206 --> 00:20:52.475
Read it, we can underline it.
00:20:52.475 --> 00:20:53.843
We can dog-ear the pages, go back and read it again.
00:20:53.843 --> 00:20:57.280
Joe, the hardest thing about what you're saying, for people
00:20:57.280 --> 00:21:00.516
Who have experienced genuine church trauma, is that--you're a
00:21:00.516 --> 00:21:06.422
Pastor and what you're saying right now, many of these wolves
00:21:06.422 --> 00:21:11.594
In the pulpit have said to the very girls that they have
00:21:11.594 --> 00:21:14.764
Abused, "sweetheart, the problem is you need to forgive, that's
00:21:14.764 --> 00:21:18.067
Where you're gonna find your healing.
00:21:18.067 --> 00:21:19.669
And you need to not look at me, you need to look to christ and
00:21:19.669 --> 00:21:23.106
You need to come back to church."
00:21:23.106 --> 00:21:25.775
To them, they're like, it sounds like a big fat excuse for the
00:21:25.775 --> 00:21:29.445
Abuse to continue.
00:21:29.445 --> 00:21:31.147
So i know that's not what you're saying, you're speaking truth.
00:21:31.147 --> 00:21:34.984
And that's what the bible says we need to do, is we need to go
00:21:34.984 --> 00:21:38.054
To god.
00:21:38.054 --> 00:21:39.389
We need to forgive and not hold ourselves in this prison of
00:21:39.389 --> 00:21:42.091
Bitterness and anger our whole lives.
00:21:42.091 --> 00:21:44.227
However, the person that hurts you is often not the person who
00:21:44.227 --> 00:21:47.430
Can heal you, and it's hard to hear these things when they
00:21:47.430 --> 00:21:51.067
Sound like excuses.
00:21:51.067 --> 00:21:52.435
So just curious, this is not the topic of your book, but what
00:21:52.435 --> 00:21:57.240
Would--what do you want to say to the people who are the
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:00.676
Perpetrators of the church hurt?
00:22:00.676 --> 00:22:02.445
What do you want to say to your own brothers in the pulpits?
00:22:02.445 --> 00:22:04.814
Joe: well, i think what i would say is my prayer is the fear of
00:22:04.814 --> 00:22:07.917
God would come on you.
00:22:07.917 --> 00:22:09.285
Because the reality is that every ungodly thing done by
00:22:09.285 --> 00:22:14.457
A leader, it started when we lost the reality that god sees,
00:22:14.457 --> 00:22:18.928
He knows, and that he will hold us to justice.
00:22:18.928 --> 00:22:22.064
And i believe that maintaining the fear of the lord in your
00:22:22.064 --> 00:22:25.701
Personal life as a leader is essential to serving god's
00:22:25.701 --> 00:22:29.439
People well.
00:22:29.439 --> 00:22:30.807
The best thing you can do today if you're a leader who is--found
00:22:30.807 --> 00:22:33.543
Yourself lording over others, if you're--you have toxic
00:22:33.543 --> 00:22:36.312
Tendencies, is you need to take a step back, turn over
00:22:36.312 --> 00:22:41.150
Authority, and you need to get well.
00:22:41.150 --> 00:22:44.187
That--it may be the hardest decision you ever make, but it
00:22:44.187 --> 00:22:46.956
Will be the one that christ rewards.
00:22:46.956 --> 00:22:50.159
We cannot allow ourselves to continue to hurt sheep and
00:22:50.159 --> 00:22:54.096
Expect that the great shepherd will not at some point
00:22:54.096 --> 00:22:56.432
Discipline us.
00:22:56.432 --> 00:22:57.767
Kirk: that's good, yeah, i like that.
00:22:57.767 --> 00:23:00.203
In closing, pastor, your last chapter describes a redeeming
00:23:00.203 --> 00:23:04.073
Process from agony to art.
00:23:04.073 --> 00:23:06.542
Would you unpack that for us?
00:23:06.542 --> 00:23:07.977
Joe: yeah, it's this idea that one day kayla and i were walking
00:23:07.977 --> 00:23:10.947
By a pottery shop and we saw all of this pottery that was
00:23:10.947 --> 00:23:16.419
Beautiful in the windows that you could purchase for a very,
00:23:16.419 --> 00:23:19.455
You know, high price.
00:23:19.455 --> 00:23:20.790
But then i looked over it, in the back you could
00:23:20.790 --> 00:23:22.391
See the workshop.
00:23:22.391 --> 00:23:23.793
And the workshop and the showroom seemed so different,
00:23:23.793 --> 00:23:25.728
There was this finished product and then there was all the
00:23:25.728 --> 00:23:28.498
Product and process.
00:23:28.498 --> 00:23:29.832
And i felt like god spoke to me and said that the ones that
00:23:29.832 --> 00:23:32.702
Everybody wants were once the ones nobody wants, they were in
00:23:32.702 --> 00:23:36.405
The process.
00:23:36.405 --> 00:23:37.740
And so maybe you find yourself here today and you're listening
00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:40.109
To this and you're thinking, i don't know, it just seems like
00:23:40.109 --> 00:23:42.245
Too hard, too tall task to go back to church, to reengage.
00:23:42.245 --> 00:23:47.483
Let me just say it's worth it, you're in process.
00:23:47.483 --> 00:23:49.752
God's got you on his wheel, he's adding things, he's taking
00:23:49.752 --> 00:23:52.822
Away things.
00:23:52.822 --> 00:23:54.190
And i think it's rooted in this, this is what i would want us to
00:23:54.190 --> 00:23:57.593
Understand, god is just.
00:23:57.593 --> 00:24:00.296
We hold on to pain because we think it proves what they did.
00:24:00.296 --> 00:24:05.801
And one day i read psalm 56:8 and it says this, it says god
00:24:05.801 --> 00:24:09.405
Collects our tears.
00:24:09.405 --> 00:24:10.740
And i thought that's such an odd verse, why would god want
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:13.276
A trophy of our hardest moments?
00:24:13.276 --> 00:24:15.578
And then i felt like the lord spoke to me and he said this,
00:24:15.578 --> 00:24:18.014
Kirk, he said, "when a crime's committed, a detective comes in
00:24:18.014 --> 00:24:21.484
And goes through a tedious process to preserve
00:24:21.484 --> 00:24:24.253
The evidence.
00:24:24.253 --> 00:24:25.621
And through that preservation, in the court of--in a court of
00:24:25.621 --> 00:24:29.158
Law justice is served."
00:24:29.158 --> 00:24:31.861
I believe that god comes and collects our tears in these
00:24:31.861 --> 00:24:34.964
Painful moments.
00:24:34.964 --> 00:24:36.666
And he collects them to preserve the evidence, to let us know,
00:24:36.666 --> 00:24:40.269
"i saw what happened."
00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:41.637
No one else may have saw the abuse.
00:24:41.637 --> 00:24:43.005
No one else saw what was said.
00:24:43.005 --> 00:24:44.373
No one else saw, but i saw it.
00:24:44.373 --> 00:24:46.175
And in the courts of heaven justice will be served.
00:24:46.175 --> 00:24:48.878
And by understanding that, we can release it to god and allow
00:24:48.878 --> 00:24:53.249
Ourselves to begin to move forward.
00:24:53.249 --> 00:24:55.251
Kirk: so thankful you're here.
00:24:55.251 --> 00:24:56.652
Thank you for writing this, thank you, so that we can share
00:24:56.652 --> 00:24:59.855
This with people that we know.
00:24:59.855 --> 00:25:02.925
After the break, carmen joy imes will join us and remind us why
00:25:02.925 --> 00:25:06.529
The church still matters.
00:25:06.529 --> 00:25:08.130
It's coming up next on "takeaways."
00:25:08.130 --> 00:25:16.000
It's coming up next on "takeaways."
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.346
Kirk: my next guest is an associate professor of
00:25:23.479 --> 00:25:24.347
Old testament at biola university.
00:25:25.548 --> 00:25:27.750
Dr. carmen joy imes is passionate about equipping the
00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:31.387
Church to engage with the old testament and to see it's
00:25:31.387 --> 00:25:35.691
Relevant today for the christian life.
00:25:35.691 --> 00:25:38.561
She has written several books, and this one is entitled
00:25:38.561 --> 00:25:41.797
"becoming god's family: why the church still matters."
00:25:41.797 --> 00:25:45.368
Carmen, thanks so much for coming on "takeaways."
00:25:45.368 --> 00:25:47.103
Carmen: thanks for having me.
00:25:47.103 --> 00:25:48.437
Kirk: i have a friend who's very excited that i get to interview
00:25:48.437 --> 00:25:51.173
You today because you're one of his favorite theologians.
00:25:51.173 --> 00:25:54.677
He loves the work that you've done with bearing the name of
00:25:54.677 --> 00:25:59.215
God, which we do.
00:25:59.215 --> 00:26:01.217
And, in fact, this book that we're talking about today is the
00:26:01.217 --> 00:26:04.153
Third in a trilogy of books, so it's "bearing the name of god",
00:26:04.153 --> 00:26:06.922
"being the image of god", and now "becoming god's family."
00:26:06.922 --> 00:26:11.827
Talk about how those three books connect with one another.
00:26:11.827 --> 00:26:14.664
Carmen: sure, so the first book i wrote was "bearing god's name:
00:26:14.664 --> 00:26:17.667
Why sinai still matters," and i'm arguing that as christians,
00:26:17.667 --> 00:26:21.771
If we want to understand who we are and why we're here, we have
00:26:21.771 --> 00:26:24.907
To go back to mount sinai, which is where god places his name on
00:26:24.907 --> 00:26:28.744
His people and says, "you represent me among the nations."
00:26:28.744 --> 00:26:32.114
So when he gives them the law, he's not giving them the means
00:26:32.114 --> 00:26:35.117
To get saved because they've already been saved.
00:26:35.117 --> 00:26:37.787
When god gives them the law at mount sinai, it's their mission.
00:26:37.787 --> 00:26:40.556
This is how you're gonna carry out your mission to represent me
00:26:40.556 --> 00:26:43.693
To others.
00:26:43.693 --> 00:26:45.695
So that book flowed out of my doctoral work at
00:26:45.695 --> 00:26:48.531
Wheaton college.
00:26:48.531 --> 00:26:49.899
I wrote on the command not to take the lord's name in vain
00:26:49.899 --> 00:26:51.701
And discovered it's way bigger than what comes out of our mouth
00:26:51.701 --> 00:26:54.770
About god.
00:26:54.770 --> 00:26:56.138
So that was a really fascinating subject, and then right after it
00:26:56.138 --> 00:26:59.709
Was published, i realized, you know, this is similar to the
00:26:59.709 --> 00:27:02.511
Idea of being god's image because as god's image, we also
00:27:02.511 --> 00:27:06.482
Represent him to creation.
00:27:06.482 --> 00:27:07.850
God tells adam and eve to rule over creation on his behalf, so
00:27:07.850 --> 00:27:11.220
That's also representative.
00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:12.555
But it's different because every human being is the image of god
00:27:12.555 --> 00:27:16.792
And only the covenant people bear god's name, so there's like
00:27:16.792 --> 00:27:19.729
Two different pools of people.
00:27:19.729 --> 00:27:22.665
And so i wrote the book "being god's image" to help others see
00:27:22.665 --> 00:27:26.869
How the bible teaches that every human being is the image of god.
00:27:26.869 --> 00:27:30.639
It's not something that we can lose, it's not based on our
00:27:30.639 --> 00:27:33.709
Capacities, it's our actual human identity.
00:27:33.709 --> 00:27:37.646
And that was an important book to think about, all the ethical
00:27:37.646 --> 00:27:40.182
Implications for race and gender and class and just all
00:27:40.182 --> 00:27:43.853
The things.
00:27:43.853 --> 00:27:45.421
And then i realized you could read those first two books and
00:27:45.421 --> 00:27:48.524
Come away with the idea that i'm god's image and i bear god's
00:27:48.524 --> 00:27:52.261
Name, and i'm good to go, and i realized that i needed to lean
00:27:52.261 --> 00:27:56.732
Into the idea that we are--we are invited to be part of
00:27:56.732 --> 00:28:00.136
A community of faith.
00:28:00.136 --> 00:28:01.537
That the christian life was never intended to be a solo
00:28:01.537 --> 00:28:04.573
Journey, just me and jesus, but that god calls us into a family,
00:28:04.573 --> 00:28:08.778
And if we're trying to do it all on our own, we're actually
00:28:08.778 --> 00:28:11.847
Missing the boat.
00:28:11.847 --> 00:28:13.215
Kirk: and i think it's easy to think of this as me and jesus
00:28:13.215 --> 00:28:17.553
Because we often hear the phrase real christianity is about my
00:28:17.553 --> 00:28:21.991
Personal relationship with jesus.
00:28:21.991 --> 00:28:24.527
Carmen: yes, it's a very western, individualized, even
00:28:24.527 --> 00:28:28.564
Consumeristic way of thinking about the christian life.
00:28:28.564 --> 00:28:32.034
And it's true that jesus is everything to me and i do have
00:28:32.034 --> 00:28:35.638
A personal relationship with jesus.
00:28:35.638 --> 00:28:38.374
But he is--he intends for me to be part of a community of faith
00:28:38.374 --> 00:28:43.012
Where we gather together and worship him.
00:28:43.012 --> 00:28:47.049
We put him at the center, not me at the center.
00:28:47.049 --> 00:28:49.785
And i think one of my fears is that for a lot of people, church
00:28:49.785 --> 00:28:53.055
Has actually become just one more tool in their
00:28:53.055 --> 00:28:55.791
Self-improvement toolkit.
00:28:55.791 --> 00:28:58.027
Like, i go to church because this is like checking the
00:28:58.027 --> 00:29:00.596
Spiritual box, and i go to the gym and i, you know, do all of
00:29:00.596 --> 00:29:04.033
These other things to sort of make me the best version of me.
00:29:04.033 --> 00:29:08.437
And it becomes about me instead of being about jesus.
00:29:08.437 --> 00:29:11.607
Kirk: i have such a--i think of it as a unique perspective when
00:29:11.607 --> 00:29:15.611
I go to church, but i kind of see myself in the description
00:29:15.611 --> 00:29:18.480
That you just said.
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:19.849
It's kind of all about me, but i don't want it to be about me.
00:29:19.849 --> 00:29:22.051
But when i walk into a church, people go, "there's the guy from
00:29:22.051 --> 00:29:24.286
'growing pains,'" right?
00:29:24.286 --> 00:29:25.621
And it becomes about me, and i don't want it to be about me.
00:29:25.621 --> 00:29:28.724
And i'm not--i'm not trying to sound like i'm humble by saying
00:29:28.724 --> 00:29:31.193
I don't want it to be about me.
00:29:31.193 --> 00:29:32.795
But there is in another way where i wanna go into church and
00:29:32.795 --> 00:29:35.698
I wanna be anonymous and i want this to just be about what
00:29:35.698 --> 00:29:40.069
I'm here for.
00:29:40.069 --> 00:29:41.437
Like, i wanna hear a good sermon, i wanna connect with god
00:29:41.437 --> 00:29:43.339
Through the worship, and then i wanna leave.
00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:45.641
And i don't wanna talk to anybody because it's gonna get
00:29:45.641 --> 00:29:47.943
Into, "is candace cameron really your sister from growing--from
00:29:47.943 --> 00:29:50.646
'full house'?"
00:29:50.646 --> 00:29:52.348
"is--hey, could we get together and could you disciple my," and
00:29:52.348 --> 00:29:54.717
All of a sudden i'm thinking, i've got a wife, i've got kids,
00:29:54.717 --> 00:29:57.586
I've got all these things i need to do.
00:29:57.586 --> 00:29:58.921
And sometimes i avoid the social aspect of church, even though i
00:29:58.921 --> 00:30:03.792
Love church, but i don't always have the right perspective on
00:30:03.792 --> 00:30:08.063
It, which i think is why i'm so thankful to be talking to you
00:30:08.063 --> 00:30:12.101
About the value of church.
00:30:12.101 --> 00:30:14.937
Go ahead.
00:30:14.937 --> 00:30:16.305
Carmen: i think it's complicated in particular ways for you, but
00:30:16.305 --> 00:30:18.774
I think a lot of people can relate to the idea of,
00:30:18.774 --> 00:30:21.677
I don't--i don't want to get entangled with other people.
00:30:21.677 --> 00:30:23.913
I just want to come in and hear a good sermon and hear some good
00:30:23.913 --> 00:30:26.382
Music and go home, and kind of slip in and slip out.
00:30:26.382 --> 00:30:30.152
And that's not what church is meant to be.
00:30:30.152 --> 00:30:32.922
Like, it's--if that's what it is, you can actually sit at home
00:30:32.922 --> 00:30:36.892
And watch tbn instead.
00:30:36.892 --> 00:30:38.560
Kirk: and many people do, sometimes i'm guilty of that
00:30:38.560 --> 00:30:41.764
Very thing.
00:30:41.764 --> 00:30:43.198
The idea for this book, i heard, came from something that
00:30:43.198 --> 00:30:46.702
Happened around a fire pit on a camping trip.
00:30:46.702 --> 00:30:49.238
Tell us the story.
00:30:49.238 --> 00:30:50.606
Carmen: yes, so an extended family member was sitting across
00:30:50.606 --> 00:30:52.675
The fire from me.
00:30:52.675 --> 00:30:54.009
For some reason, the conversation turned to faith and
00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:56.612
We were talking about the bible or jesus or something, and this
00:30:56.612 --> 00:31:00.416
Extended family member said, "well, i still believe in jesus.
00:31:00.416 --> 00:31:04.286
I haven't given up on all that, but i don't need church.
00:31:04.286 --> 00:31:07.456
I don't need people telling me what to do."
00:31:07.456 --> 00:31:10.259
And for him, that's what church entailed, it was being told what
00:31:10.259 --> 00:31:14.563
To do.
00:31:14.563 --> 00:31:15.931
It's some pastor sort of getting into your business and telling
00:31:15.931 --> 00:31:19.034
You what to do and what not to do.
00:31:19.034 --> 00:31:21.136
And i realized in that moment, that church was not
00:31:21.136 --> 00:31:24.039
Obvious anymore.
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:25.908
When i was growing up, i can't remember a single sunday that we
00:31:25.908 --> 00:31:29.411
Had a conversation deciding whether or not to go to church.
00:31:29.411 --> 00:31:33.248
Like, it was just obvious, church is where we belong on
00:31:33.248 --> 00:31:36.285
A sunday morning.
00:31:36.285 --> 00:31:37.619
And so we weren't like, "are we gonna go this week?"
00:31:37.619 --> 00:31:39.388
"i don't know, i'm kind of not feeling it."
00:31:39.388 --> 00:31:41.190
Like, that was not a thing, it was just obvious.
00:31:41.190 --> 00:31:43.826
But now, i think there are a lot of christians who still believe,
00:31:43.826 --> 00:31:48.364
But they're not--they don't have a robust idea of what is it that
00:31:48.364 --> 00:31:52.267
I'm even doing, what's the point of going?
00:31:52.267 --> 00:31:54.870
Because if it's to get more information about god or the
00:31:54.870 --> 00:31:57.973
Bible, i can do that online.
00:31:57.973 --> 00:32:00.042
Kirk: yeah.
00:32:00.042 --> 00:32:01.410
Carmen: and so i think for a lot of reasons, i felt like it was
00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:03.746
Time to engage this question again.
00:32:03.746 --> 00:32:06.048
What does the bible say about why we need to get together with
00:32:06.048 --> 00:32:09.818
Other believers?
00:32:09.818 --> 00:32:11.186
Kirk: so, with all the problems that some people might see in
00:32:11.186 --> 00:32:15.290
The church, with the division, with experiences of being
00:32:15.290 --> 00:32:21.497
Injured by religious people, why is going to a local congregation
00:32:21.497 --> 00:32:29.271
Fellowship on sunday mornings or saturday nights or whenever it
00:32:29.271 --> 00:32:32.975
Is that you go, still relevant today?
00:32:32.975 --> 00:32:35.411
What's your elevator pitch for why church is still important?
00:32:35.411 --> 00:32:39.048
Carmen: i think i would say when paul describes the church, he
00:32:39.048 --> 00:32:42.718
Describes that each one of us is like a different part of the
00:32:42.718 --> 00:32:45.120
Body, you know, we are the body of christ.
00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:46.922
He uses that metaphor.
00:32:46.922 --> 00:32:48.657
And each of us is bringing something different.
00:32:48.657 --> 00:32:51.260
God has gifted each one of us uniquely, so that when i'm
00:32:51.260 --> 00:32:55.230
Missing, there's something god wanted to give other believers
00:32:55.230 --> 00:32:58.700
That they're not getting because i'm not there.
00:32:58.700 --> 00:33:01.203
And so it's not something you can do on your own at home
00:33:01.203 --> 00:33:05.374
Because we're meant to contribute to each other's
00:33:05.374 --> 00:33:08.710
Growth and maturity in our walk with christ.
00:33:08.710 --> 00:33:12.614
And if we're not gathering, then that's not happening.
00:33:12.614 --> 00:33:14.883
So that's not the whole answer, but i think that's a piece of it
00:33:14.883 --> 00:33:18.921
That maybe pushes against the idea of like, "well, i could
00:33:18.921 --> 00:33:22.424
Just stay at home and watch tbn and that would be enough,"
00:33:22.424 --> 00:33:26.495
Because that's a one directional relationship.
00:33:26.495 --> 00:33:29.765
My parents for a time were watching church online because
00:33:29.765 --> 00:33:32.568
My mom was in a car accident that left her with a traumatic
00:33:32.568 --> 00:33:35.604
Brain injury.
00:33:35.604 --> 00:33:36.939
So for years, she couldn't handle church because of the
00:33:36.939 --> 00:33:39.074
Smells and the sounds and the movement and the lights.
00:33:39.074 --> 00:33:41.577
Like, all of the things would just send her spiraling and it
00:33:41.577 --> 00:33:46.181
Would take her days and days to recover, so they watched
00:33:46.181 --> 00:33:48.417
Church online.
00:33:48.417 --> 00:33:49.751
And during that season, that was an important lifeline for them
00:33:49.751 --> 00:33:52.187
To be able to hear the word preached and participate in some
00:33:52.187 --> 00:33:55.591
Way in worship.
00:33:55.591 --> 00:33:56.925
But they felt like they knew the people on camera, but those
00:33:56.925 --> 00:33:59.795
People didn't know them.
00:33:59.795 --> 00:34:01.730
And i think the fruit of those years of being isolated has
00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:08.537
Played out in ways that are really detrimental, they're no
00:34:08.537 --> 00:34:10.539
Longer married.
00:34:10.539 --> 00:34:12.741
And so my parents' own experience of this was that
00:34:12.741 --> 00:34:16.845
Their own difficulties and the tensions in their marriage were
00:34:16.845 --> 00:34:21.016
Allowed to fester because they weren't having any face to face
00:34:21.016 --> 00:34:23.819
With people who could see, you guys are not okay.
00:34:23.819 --> 00:34:26.688
I remember one sunday in our small local church where the
00:34:26.688 --> 00:34:30.425
Kids came back from sunday school.
00:34:30.425 --> 00:34:32.127
So at our church, the kids go off to sunday school.
00:34:32.127 --> 00:34:34.429
After a--after a bit of preamble, they leave for the
00:34:34.429 --> 00:34:38.767
Sermon and then they come back and participate in communion and
00:34:38.767 --> 00:34:42.004
The rest of the singing.
00:34:42.004 --> 00:34:43.438
And i remember a four-year-old coming back from his class and
00:34:43.438 --> 00:34:47.609
Seeing a college student a couple of rows back and just
00:34:47.609 --> 00:34:50.145
Being like...
00:34:50.145 --> 00:34:51.513
Like it was really clear that the two of them had
00:34:51.513 --> 00:34:54.049
A connection, they were bonded.
00:34:54.049 --> 00:34:55.651
And that's because this college student was in a community group
00:34:55.651 --> 00:35:00.155
With this kid's parents, and so they were doing like life
00:35:00.155 --> 00:35:03.058
Together week in and week out.
00:35:03.058 --> 00:35:04.493
Kirk: i want to drill down on all of these things.
00:35:04.493 --> 00:35:06.428
We've got to go away to a break, but i want you to help me know
00:35:06.428 --> 00:35:10.032
Why i should be going to church more often and how to find
00:35:10.032 --> 00:35:12.968
The right kind of church.
00:35:12.968 --> 00:35:14.836
When we come back, carmen is gonna share why church is
00:35:14.836 --> 00:35:18.040
A group project and not meant to be a solo adventure.
00:35:18.040 --> 00:35:21.510
Stay with us.
00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:28.001
Stay with us.
00:35:28.001 --> 00:35:35.524
Kirk: welcome back, we're talking with speaker and author
00:35:35.624 --> 00:35:36.625
Dr. carmen joy imes on the importance of the church and why
00:35:37.759 --> 00:35:41.897
It still matters.
00:35:41.897 --> 00:35:44.366
Have you ever walked out of a church?
00:35:44.366 --> 00:35:47.102
Carmen: oh, i've been tempted.
00:35:47.102 --> 00:35:48.503
Kirk: you've been tempted.
00:35:48.503 --> 00:35:49.871
Okay, well, you're--well, i don't know if you're better than
00:35:49.871 --> 00:35:52.574
Me or just not as courageous as me.
00:35:52.574 --> 00:35:56.178
But i have walked out of churches before where like the
00:35:56.178 --> 00:35:58.547
Theology is just--it just tanked, and i'm like i can't--
00:35:58.547 --> 00:36:02.951
I can't--i can't do this, you know, or something else has
00:36:02.951 --> 00:36:06.421
Gone on.
00:36:06.421 --> 00:36:07.789
Is it ever right to walk out or--on church or a church?
00:36:07.789 --> 00:36:14.096
Carmen: i definitely think there is a time to leave a church, and
00:36:14.096 --> 00:36:18.600
Part of the argument of my book is that we shouldn't give up on
00:36:18.600 --> 00:36:22.137
Big c church just because we've found one local expression of it
00:36:22.137 --> 00:36:25.974
That's flawed in some way.
00:36:25.974 --> 00:36:28.677
I think one of the concerns that i have is that people who are
00:36:28.677 --> 00:36:33.248
Looking for a church are looking for an echo chamber where
00:36:33.248 --> 00:36:36.718
Everybody there looks like me and thinks like me and they
00:36:36.718 --> 00:36:39.655
Voted the way i voted, and so we end up--
00:36:39.655 --> 00:36:42.224
Kirk: and believe what i believe about all the things.
00:36:42.224 --> 00:36:43.659
Carmen: yes, and if that's what you're looking for, then as soon
00:36:43.659 --> 00:36:47.396
As you find it, it's only a matter of time before they will
00:36:47.396 --> 00:36:49.931
Say or do something that's not what you think, and so you'll be
00:36:49.931 --> 00:36:54.803
Like out looking for another church again.
00:36:54.803 --> 00:36:56.705
So i think we need to actually tolerate a spectrum of views and
00:36:56.705 --> 00:37:01.610
Get together with people who don't think exactly the way
00:37:01.610 --> 00:37:03.912
We do.
00:37:03.912 --> 00:37:05.280
Kirk: carmen, that takes maturity.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:06.615
Carmen: i know, i know, but there does come a time to leave,
00:37:06.615 --> 00:37:10.118
And i think there are--there--i identify three reasons--
00:37:10.118 --> 00:37:13.955
Kirk: what would be a good--what would be an okay reason to leave
00:37:13.955 --> 00:37:16.291
A church?
00:37:16.291 --> 00:37:17.659
Carmen: if abuse is happening and the leadership is not
00:37:17.659 --> 00:37:20.062
Interested in talking about it, they're sweeping it under the
00:37:20.062 --> 00:37:21.930
Rug, then it's time to go.
00:37:21.930 --> 00:37:24.132
And if it's a church that has set aside the bible because
00:37:24.132 --> 00:37:27.936
They're more interested in following cultural trends, then
00:37:27.936 --> 00:37:31.973
It's time to leave.
00:37:31.973 --> 00:37:33.308
Kirk: you say in your book that god's promises are not aimed at
00:37:33.308 --> 00:37:37.846
Helping us reach our personal goals.
00:37:37.846 --> 00:37:41.083
Carmen: yeah.
00:37:41.083 --> 00:37:43.051
Kirk: well, then, why else would i go to church and read the
00:37:43.051 --> 00:37:47.856
Bible if not to be this treasure chest of principles and proverbs
00:37:47.856 --> 00:37:54.229
That helped me live my best life now?
00:37:54.229 --> 00:37:57.232
So give us some examples, maybe in the old testament or
00:37:57.232 --> 00:38:01.403
Throughout the scriptures, that demonstrate that god's promises
00:38:01.403 --> 00:38:04.840
Are not to satisfy our personal needs.
00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:07.442
Carmen: i think the easiest place for us to go is the
00:38:07.442 --> 00:38:09.411
Lord's prayer.
00:38:09.411 --> 00:38:10.746
When jesus is teaching his disciples how to pray,
00:38:10.746 --> 00:38:13.615
He doesn't say to pray, "oh lord, put your blessing on my
00:38:13.615 --> 00:38:17.219
Best ideas."
00:38:17.219 --> 00:38:18.587
It's, "your kingdom come.
00:38:18.587 --> 00:38:21.523
Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."
00:38:21.523 --> 00:38:24.459
Jesus is asking his disciples, all of us, to align our goals
00:38:24.459 --> 00:38:29.865
With his goals.
00:38:29.865 --> 00:38:31.199
It's a setting aside of me and what i want and exchanging that
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.737
For god and what he wants.
00:38:35.737 --> 00:38:38.740
And that's, i think, the first radical thing about the
00:38:38.740 --> 00:38:41.309
Lord's prayer.
00:38:41.309 --> 00:38:42.644
The other radical thing that i did not notice until more
00:38:42.644 --> 00:38:44.646
Recently is that it's very collective.
00:38:44.646 --> 00:38:47.649
I don't know if you've noticed this, it's not my father in
00:38:47.649 --> 00:38:50.552
Heaven, it's "our father in heaven."
00:38:50.552 --> 00:38:54.256
It's not give me this day my daily bread, it's "give us this
00:38:54.256 --> 00:38:59.294
Day our daily bread."
00:38:59.294 --> 00:39:01.663
From the beginning, jesus is teaching his disciples to think
00:39:01.663 --> 00:39:04.699
Of themselves as part of a group that's dependent on the father
00:39:04.699 --> 00:39:09.004
To provide everything they need.
00:39:09.004 --> 00:39:11.339
And the implication is that if god provides for me more food
00:39:11.339 --> 00:39:15.844
Than what i need, then i'm part of the answer to the prayer when
00:39:15.844 --> 00:39:21.249
I share it with those who need it.
00:39:21.249 --> 00:39:22.651
Kirk: and how am i going to know that those people need it if i'm
00:39:22.651 --> 00:39:25.587
Not in community with them?
00:39:25.587 --> 00:39:26.922
Carmen: yes, and we live in a time that is more class-divided
00:39:26.922 --> 00:39:31.760
Than ever before in the church.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.830
We don't tend to go to church with people who are not in the
00:39:34.830 --> 00:39:37.899
Same basic income bracket or level of education, the same
00:39:37.899 --> 00:39:42.537
Kind of career trajectory, and so it's actually easy for us to
00:39:42.537 --> 00:39:47.442
Go through life without being in touch with what are--what are
00:39:47.442 --> 00:39:51.079
People's actual needs?
00:39:51.079 --> 00:39:52.848
And i think if paul or jesus walked on the scene and saw how
00:39:52.848 --> 00:39:56.651
This was playing out in the united states, i think they
00:39:56.651 --> 00:39:59.221
Would be shocked and dismayed.
00:39:59.221 --> 00:40:01.990
Because the whole point of gathering people around the
00:40:01.990 --> 00:40:04.593
Table is that we're no longer divided by class, by race, by
00:40:04.593 --> 00:40:10.031
Gender, we're gathering around like equals at the foot of the
00:40:10.031 --> 00:40:13.735
Cross, and yet we have all these hierarchies in the church and we
00:40:13.735 --> 00:40:17.506
Sort ourselves into categories.
00:40:17.506 --> 00:40:19.641
Kirk: i've often thought to myself, lord, am i serving the
00:40:19.641 --> 00:40:24.246
Needs of the poor, the needy, the--of your people who are
00:40:24.246 --> 00:40:30.218
In need?
00:40:30.218 --> 00:40:31.853
And so i think of, well, where can i do that?
00:40:31.853 --> 00:40:34.322
And i think of the homeless man who's on the street corner, or i
00:40:34.322 --> 00:40:37.592
Could go online and find a great ministry like samaritan's purse
00:40:37.592 --> 00:40:41.429
Or something that's doing great disaster relief somewhere to
00:40:41.429 --> 00:40:45.100
Help people.
00:40:45.100 --> 00:40:46.434
But really, what i think jesus had in mind and certainly when
00:40:46.434 --> 00:40:50.772
We look at the 1st century church, they didn't have
00:40:50.772 --> 00:40:54.509
Internet and social media to discover these things, or
00:40:54.509 --> 00:40:56.545
Homeless guys on the street, with peter and paul like in
00:40:56.545 --> 00:40:59.981
Their car driving past them.
00:40:59.981 --> 00:41:01.883
They were probably just living life together in community with
00:41:01.883 --> 00:41:06.021
Others and you knew the needs of your neighbors.
00:41:06.021 --> 00:41:08.757
And so i started to ask myself, what if i said i want to go to
00:41:08.757 --> 00:41:12.928
Church, not because i can't hear a good sermon online, because
00:41:12.928 --> 00:41:15.630
I can.
00:41:15.630 --> 00:41:16.998
I'm going to church not to hear great worship music because i
00:41:16.998 --> 00:41:20.235
Can just listen to chris tomlin or somebody else--
00:41:20.235 --> 00:41:22.537
Carmen: put on spotify.
00:41:22.537 --> 00:41:24.439
Kirk: what if i go to church so that i can find out about the
00:41:24.439 --> 00:41:28.777
Needs of the elderly and the poor and the sick and the
00:41:28.777 --> 00:41:32.681
Destitute in my community so that i can effectively
00:41:32.681 --> 00:41:36.952
Help them?
00:41:36.952 --> 00:41:38.320
That would give me a good reason to go to church.
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:41.623
What are we missing when we don't go to church that we don't
00:41:41.623 --> 00:41:46.361
Realize that we're actually missing, and what are other
00:41:46.361 --> 00:41:50.031
People missing when we don't go to church?
00:41:50.031 --> 00:41:52.100
Carmen: yes, first, what i said earlier about how we look for an
00:41:52.100 --> 00:41:55.637
Echo chamber, that can actually get us in a situation where when
00:41:55.637 --> 00:41:59.941
We go to church, we don't hear anything different than what we
00:41:59.941 --> 00:42:02.210
Would have seen ourselves if we were reading the bible.
00:42:02.210 --> 00:42:04.946
But if we find a church that is diverse in all the ways, like
00:42:04.946 --> 00:42:09.317
It's multicultural and intergenerational, then it's
00:42:09.317 --> 00:42:12.153
Very likely that when we sit down and read the bible
00:42:12.153 --> 00:42:14.322
Together, the people sitting across from us will have
00:42:14.322 --> 00:42:17.425
Different questions and different observations about the
00:42:17.425 --> 00:42:20.228
Text than what we bring to it.
00:42:20.228 --> 00:42:22.263
Because they don't--they're not bringing in the same assumptions
00:42:22.263 --> 00:42:24.766
That we have based on our upbringing or based on
00:42:24.766 --> 00:42:27.435
Our education.
00:42:27.435 --> 00:42:28.770
So one of the things we gain from worshiping with a
00:42:28.770 --> 00:42:31.806
Multicultural, intergenerational church is we will see things
00:42:31.806 --> 00:42:36.144
That are right there on the pages of scripture that we
00:42:36.144 --> 00:42:38.413
Have missed.
00:42:38.413 --> 00:42:39.948
Like with the lord's prayer, that it's corporate, talking
00:42:39.948 --> 00:42:43.351
About "give us this day our daily bread," i had been
00:42:43.351 --> 00:42:46.921
A christian for 40-plus years before i saw that.
00:42:46.921 --> 00:42:52.494
I had a phd in bible already, and i had never noticed that.
00:42:52.494 --> 00:42:56.765
It was only when i read a book by justo gonzalez called "teach
00:42:56.765 --> 00:43:00.101
Us to pray" that i realized this is corporate.
00:43:00.101 --> 00:43:04.139
This is not just about me and my needs, it's about us and
00:43:04.139 --> 00:43:07.575
Our needs.
00:43:07.575 --> 00:43:08.910
And so justo gonzalez was writing this book from the
00:43:08.910 --> 00:43:11.413
Perspective of a latin american theologian, and he saw
00:43:11.413 --> 00:43:14.849
A communal dimension to it that i'd missed because of the bubble
00:43:14.849 --> 00:43:18.720
I grew up in.
00:43:18.720 --> 00:43:20.422
Kirk: can you give us some scripture examples in the bible
00:43:20.422 --> 00:43:24.092
That say church is supposed to be a community project, you're
00:43:24.092 --> 00:43:27.896
Not supposed to just watch this online and do your own thing?
00:43:27.896 --> 00:43:31.666
Carmen: yeah, i mean, when we look in the early chapters of
00:43:31.666 --> 00:43:35.170
The book of acts, the believers are meeting together daily and
00:43:35.170 --> 00:43:40.041
They're engaged in all sorts of activity, including feeding
00:43:40.041 --> 00:43:43.678
Widows, like you can't do that online, right?
00:43:43.678 --> 00:43:47.115
You can't--you can't watch that somehow.
00:43:47.115 --> 00:43:50.652
They were called to participate with one another in ways that
00:43:50.652 --> 00:43:53.822
Knit them together as a family.
00:43:53.822 --> 00:43:56.291
And it's really fascinating to me the way their new life
00:43:56.291 --> 00:44:01.963
Together was reshaping their values, because in the 1st
00:44:01.963 --> 00:44:04.599
Century, family was super important and your loyalty to
00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:09.771
Your family was above all other loyalties.
00:44:09.771 --> 00:44:12.774
But jesus was calling believers to become family with each
00:44:12.774 --> 00:44:16.878
Other, like non-biological family, which meant for them
00:44:16.878 --> 00:44:21.716
That they were going to have to sometimes set aside their
00:44:21.716 --> 00:44:25.086
Connection to their biological family in order to serve those
00:44:25.086 --> 00:44:29.090
Who were not their biological family.
00:44:29.090 --> 00:44:31.359
So for some of us who come from a western, individualized
00:44:31.359 --> 00:44:34.763
Context, we might be sort of challenged to think of each
00:44:34.763 --> 00:44:39.334
Other as family, like, oh, i'm used to just being on my own.
00:44:39.334 --> 00:44:43.104
But it was also a challenge for the 1st century believers
00:44:43.104 --> 00:44:46.074
Because they were having to like switch loyalties to the family
00:44:46.074 --> 00:44:49.911
Of god.
00:44:49.911 --> 00:44:51.246
And we have a story in acts chapter 5, you asked
00:44:51.246 --> 00:44:53.448
For examples.
00:44:53.448 --> 00:44:54.783
In acts chapter 5, we've just heard that people are selling
00:44:54.783 --> 00:44:58.820
Their property and bringing the money to the apostles and laying
00:44:58.820 --> 00:45:03.458
It at their feet and that--and that money was then used to meet
00:45:03.458 --> 00:45:06.394
The needs of the--of the wider community.
00:45:06.394 --> 00:45:08.663
This was radical because if you were a person of means in the
00:45:08.663 --> 00:45:12.534
Ancient world, then your job was to use your wealth on behalf of
00:45:12.534 --> 00:45:16.571
Others, but you would do it in a very public way and receive
00:45:16.571 --> 00:45:20.141
Public honor for doing it.
00:45:20.141 --> 00:45:22.043
So they'd put a little plaque next to the bridge you built,
00:45:22.043 --> 00:45:25.046
And say, like, "carmen paid for this bridge," you know,
00:45:25.046 --> 00:45:28.016
We--"we're indebted to carmen."
00:45:28.016 --> 00:45:29.450
But if you--if you sell your land and put it at the
00:45:29.450 --> 00:45:32.120
Disciples' feet that--the apostles' feet, then they're
00:45:32.120 --> 00:45:35.290
Deciding how to distribute it and you're not getting any of
00:45:35.290 --> 00:45:37.926
The glory for it.
00:45:37.926 --> 00:45:39.260
So it's actually opting out of the honor system in the
00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:42.931
Ancient world.
00:45:42.931 --> 00:45:44.299
So then we--that brings us to ananias and sapphira, who are
00:45:44.299 --> 00:45:47.669
Like, "ooh, yeah, we wanna be in this club where it looks good to
00:45:47.669 --> 00:45:53.675
Sell things and bring the money."
00:45:53.675 --> 00:45:55.844
And so they sell a piece of property and only give half the
00:45:55.844 --> 00:45:59.047
Money to the apostles because they're imagining, "this is
00:45:59.047 --> 00:46:02.150
Gonna make us look like everybody else who's being
00:46:02.150 --> 00:46:04.953
Generous," and they dropped dead on the spot for lying to the
00:46:04.953 --> 00:46:09.324
Apostles as if to say--it's as if god is saying, in this
00:46:09.324 --> 00:46:15.763
Situation, you can't play this game the way you've been playing
00:46:15.763 --> 00:46:19.234
The honor game.
00:46:19.234 --> 00:46:20.568
I don't, i--that game doesn't work here, we're family, and so
00:46:20.568 --> 00:46:25.306
Our resources are being used the way we'd use them for family.
00:46:25.306 --> 00:46:29.477
If your son needed money and you gave him money, you wouldn't get
00:46:29.477 --> 00:46:32.947
Some public honor for helping your son financially 'cause
00:46:32.947 --> 00:46:36.184
You're family.
00:46:36.184 --> 00:46:37.752
But in the church, we're supposed to begin treating each
00:46:37.752 --> 00:46:40.688
Other as if--like, well, we're family, so i don't need any
00:46:40.688 --> 00:46:44.292
Public honor for this kind of generosity.
00:46:44.292 --> 00:46:46.895
It's just what families do.
00:46:46.895 --> 00:46:48.363
Kirk: yeah, boy, that's convicting.
00:46:48.363 --> 00:46:51.866
Maybe as a church, when we have a building project and we raise
00:46:51.866 --> 00:46:55.970
Lots of money for a new auditorium, we shouldn't put the
00:46:55.970 --> 00:46:58.840
Goldman auditorium placard on the top of it.
00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:03.044
I think you're making a really good point.
00:47:03.044 --> 00:47:06.080
When people read this book, the third in your trilogy, "becoming
00:47:06.080 --> 00:47:09.250
God's family," what do you want them to take away from it?
00:47:09.250 --> 00:47:12.921
Carmen: i'm hoping that they will sense god's invitation to
00:47:12.921 --> 00:47:15.957
Plug into a church, and i'm hoping that it will reframe what
00:47:15.957 --> 00:47:19.294
They're looking for so that they're not out there looking
00:47:19.294 --> 00:47:22.063
For the most happening thing in town, but looking for probably
00:47:22.063 --> 00:47:25.800
A small ordinary bunch of people who are gathered around the word
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:29.337
Of god, making jesus the center of things, and agreeing together
00:47:29.337 --> 00:47:33.508
That the best thing we've got to look forward to is
00:47:33.508 --> 00:47:35.777
Christ's return.
00:47:35.777 --> 00:47:37.145
And we don't actually have the solution for what ails our
00:47:37.145 --> 00:47:40.081
World, and so we're just getting together to wait for god to show
00:47:40.081 --> 00:47:43.818
Up and make it all right again.
00:47:43.818 --> 00:47:46.454
And so this collective recognition that we don't have
00:47:46.454 --> 00:47:50.191
The answer, but that we know the one who has it.
00:47:50.191 --> 00:47:53.394
I think that's what i would hope people would feel invited into.
00:47:53.394 --> 00:47:57.098
And for anyone watching who's like, "yeah, but you don't know
00:47:57.098 --> 00:48:00.935
How much i've been hurt by the church," i wanna reassure each
00:48:00.935 --> 00:48:05.139
One that if you've been hurt by the church and if the--if you've
00:48:05.139 --> 00:48:10.378
Experienced some sort of toxic leadership in the church, it's
00:48:10.378 --> 00:48:14.949
Right for you to notice that and name it.
00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:17.852
The bible does not shy away from telling us the stories of its
00:48:17.852 --> 00:48:22.223
Heroes falling, and i don't think we should shy away from
00:48:22.223 --> 00:48:25.994
That either.
00:48:25.994 --> 00:48:27.328
But it invites us into a better, brighter vision of what we can
00:48:27.328 --> 00:48:30.798
Be together when we're gathered around the presence of god.
00:48:30.798 --> 00:48:34.168
Kirk: carmen, thanks so much for joining us today and thanks for
00:48:34.168 --> 00:48:36.404
Writing this book.
00:48:36.404 --> 00:48:37.739
Carmen: my pleasure.
00:48:37.739 --> 00:48:39.107
Kirk: after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:48:39.107 --> 00:48:47.005
Kirk: after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:48:47.005 --> 00:48:54.690
Kirk: injury from church people is real.
00:48:54.823 --> 00:48:55.557
This is a hard conversation, but it's one we need to have.
00:48:57.226 --> 00:49:00.462
Sixty-five million americans once regularly attended church
00:49:00.462 --> 00:49:04.666
And no longer do.
00:49:04.666 --> 00:49:06.568
But here's the thing, if my faith crumbles because of your
00:49:06.568 --> 00:49:10.339
Poor character, something's wrong in that equation.
00:49:10.339 --> 00:49:14.576
Pastor joe dobbins said that we need churches that reach the
00:49:14.576 --> 00:49:17.813
Lost and heal the found.
00:49:17.813 --> 00:49:20.916
Dr. carmen joy imes reminded us why church still matters today,
00:49:20.916 --> 00:49:24.920
Even when it's hurt us, which brings us to our first takeaway.
00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:30.325
Jesus understands church hurt.
00:49:30.325 --> 00:49:33.896
Joe said something that reframed everything for me.
00:49:33.896 --> 00:49:37.066
He said, nobody understands being injured by religious
00:49:37.066 --> 00:49:40.636
People like jesus.
00:49:40.636 --> 00:49:42.571
Remember, it was a religious mob that led to his crucifixion.
00:49:42.571 --> 00:49:47.342
His hometown tried to throw him off a cliff.
00:49:47.342 --> 00:49:49.978
His brothers called him crazy, his followers abandoned him.
00:49:49.978 --> 00:49:54.349
So when you've been wounded by the church, remember,
00:49:54.349 --> 00:49:57.920
Jesus understands.
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:00.389
God doesn't just heal bodies, he also heals memories, because he
00:50:00.389 --> 00:50:05.394
Was there, he saw it, and he knows how to heal it.
00:50:05.394 --> 00:50:10.365
You is plural.
00:50:10.365 --> 00:50:13.168
I love this.
00:50:13.168 --> 00:50:14.703
Isolation is never the answer.
00:50:14.703 --> 00:50:17.439
When jesus said, "you are the salt of the earth and you are
00:50:17.439 --> 00:50:20.976
A city on a hill," the you is plural.
00:50:20.976 --> 00:50:24.580
He's not talking about you as in a lone hut on a hill, he's
00:50:24.580 --> 00:50:28.617
Talking about all of us as a city, a community.
00:50:28.617 --> 00:50:32.321
Carmen put it simply, the christian life was never meant
00:50:32.321 --> 00:50:35.924
To be solo.
00:50:35.924 --> 00:50:37.292
We're the body of christ, with many members, and when you're
00:50:37.292 --> 00:50:41.163
Missing, there's something god wants to give others through you
00:50:41.163 --> 00:50:45.200
And something you're missing too.
00:50:45.200 --> 00:50:48.036
The question isn't just, what are you missing when you don't
00:50:48.036 --> 00:50:51.073
Go to church, it's also, what are others missing when you
00:50:51.073 --> 00:50:54.977
Don't show up?
00:50:54.977 --> 00:50:56.912
Erase the conditions.
00:50:56.912 --> 00:50:59.748
We set conditions for forgiveness.
00:50:59.748 --> 00:51:02.584
It's so easy to do.
00:51:02.584 --> 00:51:03.919
We say, "well, i'll forgive them when they apologize," "if they
00:51:03.919 --> 00:51:06.855
Admit it," "if they change."
00:51:06.855 --> 00:51:08.690
But joe said, "erase those conditions."
00:51:08.690 --> 00:51:11.260
Forgiveness doesn't require the other person.
00:51:11.260 --> 00:51:15.564
You can forgive the person who hurt you right now.
00:51:15.564 --> 00:51:19.067
You don't need their permission.
00:51:19.067 --> 00:51:21.336
That's what christ did.
00:51:21.336 --> 00:51:22.671
He died while we were still sinners.
00:51:22.671 --> 00:51:26.842
And here's the hard part, also pray for them, not only for
00:51:26.842 --> 00:51:31.280
Their sake, but for yours.
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:33.615
That's how forgiveness moves from your head to your heart.
00:51:33.615 --> 00:51:39.188
God collects your tears.
00:51:39.188 --> 00:51:42.257
King david wrote in psalm 56, god collects our tears.
00:51:42.257 --> 00:51:47.629
Think about it, david knew pain.
00:51:47.629 --> 00:51:50.132
He was betrayed, he was hunted down, he was wounded by people
00:51:50.132 --> 00:51:53.735
Close to him.
00:51:53.735 --> 00:51:55.070
And joe said, "it's like a detective preserving evidence."
00:51:55.070 --> 00:51:59.541
No one else may have seen the abuse, no one else may have
00:51:59.541 --> 00:52:02.945
Heard what was said, but god did.
00:52:02.945 --> 00:52:04.947
He saw it, he heard it, he knows.
00:52:04.947 --> 00:52:07.516
So you don't have to hold on to your pain in order to prove
00:52:07.516 --> 00:52:11.386
What happened.
00:52:11.386 --> 00:52:13.021
You just have to release it to the one who is there.
00:52:13.021 --> 00:52:16.825
God didn't come for your partial healing, he came to
00:52:16.825 --> 00:52:19.828
Make you whole.
00:52:19.828 --> 00:52:22.264
Sometimes, we're almost willing to sit with unhealed wounds more
00:52:22.264 --> 00:52:26.134
Than god is for us.
00:52:26.134 --> 00:52:28.837
Rest assured that he will keep pressing on your heart until you
00:52:28.837 --> 00:52:33.342
Let him do his full work.
00:52:33.342 --> 00:52:36.111
Like pottery in a workshop, the finished pieces were once the
00:52:36.111 --> 00:52:39.848
Broken pieces that nobody wanted.
00:52:39.848 --> 00:52:42.517
You are god's masterpiece in process, and you're in
00:52:42.517 --> 00:52:46.521
Good hands.
00:52:46.521 --> 00:52:48.757
That's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:48.757 --> 00:52:50.759
Thanks for watching.
00:52:50.759 --> 00:52:52.094
And if you've enjoyed this show, don't forget to set your dvr so
00:52:52.094 --> 00:52:54.763
You never miss an episode.
00:52:54.763 --> 00:52:56.632
And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:56.632 --> 00:52:59.368
Searching for "takeaways" on tbn plus or by visiting the kirk
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Cameron on tbn youtube channel.
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We hope to see you here next time for more
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Great conversations.
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♪♪♪
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Joe Dobbins & Dr. Carmen Joy Imes: Healing From Church Hurt | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

July 13, 2026 | S1 E181 | 53:25

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