Lee & Leslie Strobel: Navigating through Spiritual Differences in a Marriage | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

January 26, 2026 | 96:37

Kirk Cameron is joined by apologist Lee Strobel and his wife Leslie sharing their experience of being spiritually mismatched early in their marriage and how God worked in their lives.

#Author #Marriage #Husband #Wife #Family #SeekGod #Faith #TrustGod #Communication #Trials-HardTimes #Challenges #Struggle #Overcoming #KirkCameron #LeeStrobel #LeslieStrobel

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Lee & Leslie Strobel: Navigating through Spiritual Differences in a Marriage | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | January 26, 2026

Kirk cameron: are you a believer in christ married to
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A non-believer?
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Or maybe you both are christians but not on the same
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Page spiritually?
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It's a tough road to walk.
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There are lots of challenging pot holes on that road of
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Wanting to walk closer toward the lord and with your spouse,
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Who maybe wants to take a completely different direction.
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My guests today, lee and leslie strobel, know exactly what that
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Road looks like.
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They will share their story of being spiritually mismatched
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Early in their marriage, and then how god worked it out for
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Them to eventually walk together.
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Lee strobel: my first reaction when she told me, the first word
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That went through my mind was divorce.
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Leslie strobel: it was always a matter of just, lord, give me
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Strength, help me to cope in a way that shines your light into
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This mess, and just help me be who you want me to be so that it
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Reflects you to him.
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Kirk: it's coming up on "takeaways."
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[music]
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Kirk: well, we've had my next guest on many times, but today
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We have lee and his wife, leslie strobel with us.
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I'm so excited about this.
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They're gonna be sharing about their experience early in their
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Marriage, when leslie became a christian and lee remained an
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Unbeliever for several years, and then how they dealt with
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Those differences.
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They wrote about their journey in a book called
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"spiritual mismatch."
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I'm so happy you guys are here.
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Lee: we love being here, god bless you, man.
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Kirk: so good to see you, so excited to talk about this
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Topic, because just this morning i was speaking with a new friend
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About the difficulty of a husband and a wife being
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Married, both believing in god, but maybe different religion,
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Different god.
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What do you do, then, with the kids?
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Or what do you do when one of you is a believer and one of you
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Is not a believer?
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And i said i'm gonna be talking to lee and leslie this morning
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About this.
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So, leslie, i'd like to start with you.
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What was your spiritual condition like when you were
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Growing up?
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Did you grow up in a christian home?
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Leslie: well, i grew up in a home where my dad was not a
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Believer, my mother was, so we-- and i didn't go to church, that
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Was just not--she didn't drive, and my dad was on the golf
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Course sunday morning, so we didn't go, but she raised me to
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Believe in god, and she would sing hymns to me at bedtime, but
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There was no real specific bible teaching, no kind of, you know,
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Real sharp teaching of any kind, so i was a little vague on who
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Jesus really was.
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Kirk: yeah, that's interesting.
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My mom was like that as well.
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She said she grew up asking jesus into her heart at a sunday
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School class, but never really grew and developed into that,
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But as a married woman, she and my dad never took us to church.
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My dad was pretty much an atheist, an unbeliever, and our
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Sunday mornings were spent at the beach body surfing and
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Boogie boarding in santa monica.
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So, we didn't have a real deep understanding of any of
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Those things.
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How about you, lee?
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Were you always an atheistic young man and all the way
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Through the time you got married to leslie?
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Lee: yeah, well, i consider myself an atheist starting in
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High school.
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And it was cemented in college, but my parents were believers.
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My mom became a believer at about age 13.
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My dad was part of a mainline denomination, and so they went
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To church and so forth, but god was not--we never had a bible
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Study, we never really prayed together, it was not a central
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Part of our life.
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The attitude was when the kids are old enough, they'll decide
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For themselves.
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And then i got old enough, i decided i didn't want anything
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To do with it.
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Kirk: what was your marriage like?
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I feel like i'm asking personal questions.
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This is gonna be t-m-i, but that's what your book is all
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About, and we wanna know, because this is
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Really important.
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Many of us have mismatched relationships, or we know
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Someone close to us who does.
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Lee, for you, what was marriage like with both of you as
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Functional unbelievers?
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Lee: yeah, well, we got married.
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We met when we were 14 years old.
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We were--chance encounter on a sidewalk, and she went home and
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Told her mom i met the boy i'm gonna marry.
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And so we dated through high school and got married when i
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Was 20, she was 19, so we were young.
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And we just had a great friendship, because we grew up
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Together basically.
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And so that was the kind of the basis of our relationship.
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We had a great rapport with each other.
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Spirituality was nowhere to be found, we didn't think about it,
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We didn't talk about it, we didn't go to church, it wasn't a
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Consideration, it was irrelevant to us.
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I didn't believe in god.
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She just couldn't put the puzzle pieces together.
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And but we were--we had a pretty happy marriage, didn't
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We, hon?
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I mean, yeah, didn't we?
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We did, didn't we? it was happy.
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[laughing]
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Kirk: so, leslie, you had some shallow understandings of
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Christianity, but not really diving into your faith.
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What was it that made you turn the corner and really pursue
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Christianity seriously?
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Leslie: so we had just moved into a new building apartment,
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And a neighbor came down with a plate of cookies and a baby on
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Her hip, and i had a child the same age, and we became great
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Friends, and she was a believer, and i just started to notice how
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She did life, and it was a lot better than the way i was
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Doing life.
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And we'd go to her apartment, and she'd have bible study
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Materials out on the table, and she started just talking to me
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About jesus, and i thought we were pretty, you know, at the
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Same level until i started having questions, and then she
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Just answered them for me and invited me to church and led me
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To the lord, and it's when everything changed, so.
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Kirk: wow.
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Leslie: yeah.
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Kirk: that is so interesting.
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I think that there are a lot of people who think that being a
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Christian is really just about, well, i go to church, maybe i've
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Been baptized, and i read the bible once in a while, but that
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Personal relationship with jesus, and by that i mean coming
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To a place of saying i have a moral debt that i owe to god,
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And i can't repay that debt, and therefore i need a savior, and
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I'm gonna come to god by faith and believe the gospel.
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I mean, that's more than just going to church and saying
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A prayer.
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What brought you to that point?
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Leslie: just understanding, getting my questions answered.
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To me, jesus was a baby in a manger.
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I didn't know that you could know him.
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I didn't know that there was any kind of personal relationship to
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Be had.
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And so linda, who is the woman that came up with that plate of
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Cookies, and i just became good friends, and i was able to ask
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Her questions.
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We had a dialogue, and so she eventually just explained it all
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To me and to where she prayed with me so that i could
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Receive christ.
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Kirk: yeah, beyond her explaining to you all the things
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And maybe doing marriage and family a little better than the
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Way that you felt that you were doing it, was it difficult to
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Come to a place of, like, humility and repentance
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And faith?
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Leslie: no, i just didn't know.
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Lee: she was ready, she was ready.
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Kirk: so god had prepared your heart for that.
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Leslie: i thought i was a christian, and then it became
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Clear that, i mean, it isn't just about god, but it's
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About jesus.
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Once i understood all that, it just made so much sense to me.
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I couldn't wait to do it, yes.
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Kirk: and so when you told lee that you had become an official
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Christian, like legit, right?
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Like christian with a capital c, not like the little c,
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What was his reaction?
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Leslie: not good. kirk: not good.
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Lee: it was my first reaction when she told me.
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The first word that went through my mind was divorce.
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Kirk: no, no!
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Lee: yeah, yeah, i was gonna walk out.
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In fact, she--i usually don't talk about this, embarrassing,
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But she had just planted a garden outside our home, and i
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Was so mad after she told me, i went out to mow the lawn, and i
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Mowed down her garden that she had planted.
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Kirk: you dirty, rotten scoundrel!
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Lee: isn't that terrible?
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Leslie: and so mature.
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Kirk: and so mature.
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Lee: but i thought she's gonna turn into some holy roller who's
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Gonna judge me, who's gonna look down her nose at me.
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I was a heavy drinker at the time.
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She's gonna tell me not to drink anymore.
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She's not gonna like the friends i hang out with.
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She's gonna want to spend our money and give it to the church.
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She's gonna want to go to church on sunday.
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I thought no.
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I didn't sign up for this.
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Kirk: all your fun romantic weekends were over.
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She wasn't gonna be adventurous anymore.
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She was just gonna be like, yeah.
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Lee: i really, i literally first thought that's it, our marriage
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Is over.
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Kirk: now, why do you think you got so angry that you mowed down
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Her flowers just because she says that she loves jesus?
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What were you afraid of?
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Lee: i think a couple of things, and this sounds weird, but it's
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True, jealousy.
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All of a sudden she's getting sucked into a different
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Subculture where i, as an atheist, was not known or
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Welcomed particularly.
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So, who's she looking up to now?
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Spiritual leaders, pastors, church people, people who have a
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Relationship with god.
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Those are the people she's kind of admiring and emulating and
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So forth.
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It's like, hey, wait a minute.
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Kirk: right, i'm the chicago tribune guy, i'm a journalist,
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I'm the hero.
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Lee: i was the man in her family, and now who's this
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Jesus guy?
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I thought i was the man in her family in her life, and all of a
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Sudden she's got this jesus character who she's worshiping,
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And i know it sounds stupid to be jealous of jesus, but i was.
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Kirk: he's, yeah, i mean, you know, he kind of sets the bar.
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He's kind of hard to live up to, i mean.
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Lee: and so i saw--
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Kirk: and you're an atheist, so you're saying not only am i
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Jealous of this jesus, he doesn't even--he's probably not
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Even real.
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He's probably--he died on the cross.
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Lee: she's bought into this whole thing hook, line,
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And sinker.
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Kirk: she drank the kool-aid. lee: that's right.
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Kirk: she's now brainwashed, and i'm married to a crazy lady.
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Lee: and it got worse, because as she would begin to live her
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Life in a way that honored god, and she didn't do this
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Intentionally, but it was almost as if she was holding up a
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Mirror, and i was seeing my reflection of my life of sin and
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Narcissism and immorality and so forth just because in contrast
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To the godly life she began to live, and i didn't want to
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Face that.
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I wanted to see myself as a great guy, and i'm realizing,
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Man, i mean i'm not such a great guy.
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Maybe i got some problems going on.
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And so she didn't do it intentionally, but just living
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That kind of a life accentuated the sinfulness of my life, and
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That was uncomfortable, i didn't like that.
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Kirk: leslie, how did you deal with these new conflicts and
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Frustrations with regard to not just religion but this newfound
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Anger that he was demonstrating and raising your kids and
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Dealing with finances and relationships?
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Leslie: and i wasn't able to go to church, because he wouldn't
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Allow it, and so if it wasn't for linda, the woman that led me
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To the lord, honestly, she helped me stay grounded, she
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Helped me stay in the word, she helped me.
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She was a shoulder to cry on, but she never allowed it to
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Become her and me against lee.
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She always would point me back to, okay, this is what happened
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Today, but let's just pray about it.
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Let's ask god to direct you and guide you and give you wisdom.
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And ultimately, what i ended up receiving from god was wisdom,
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But also clarity about how he is not the believer, i am.
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I had to really remember that i'm really now working on an
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Understanding of life in a different plane than he is.
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He is just simply blinded by the sin in his life, whereas now i
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Can see clearly, so god just gave me the ability to forgive
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Him, to not be angry, or at least to control my anger and
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Understand it and recognize that he's operating on a different
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System, just--
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And i know better, but until he's with me, i can expect some
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Of that.
00:12:18.961 --> 00:12:20.296
So it was--honestly, i look back on it, and it was certainly
00:12:20.296 --> 00:12:22.865
Divine, because god just helped me be patient and understanding
00:12:22.865 --> 00:12:27.236
When in and of myself i would not have been.
00:12:27.236 --> 00:12:30.606
Lee: i remember one day she was there with our little daughter,
00:12:30.606 --> 00:12:34.076
And she told me she wanted to go to church, and i just blew up.
00:12:34.076 --> 00:12:38.180
I just--and i remember i reared back, and i kicked a hole right
00:12:38.180 --> 00:12:40.783
Through our living room wall out of rage that she--and she's
00:12:40.783 --> 00:12:44.587
Crying, and our daughter's crying.
00:12:44.587 --> 00:12:46.222
It's like hey, that's just--
00:12:46.222 --> 00:12:48.757
Kirk: it's amazing that you stayed together, because--and
00:12:48.757 --> 00:12:51.560
For you to have a mature attitude that he's just blinded
00:12:51.560 --> 00:12:55.965
By his sin when someone on the outside could look in and say,
00:12:55.965 --> 00:13:00.202
Well, no, no, he didn't change, you're the one who changed.
00:13:00.202 --> 00:13:04.240
And for you to have the clarity that i know i'm in the right,
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.776
And he's in the wrong, when you could have said maybe i made
00:13:07.776 --> 00:13:13.015
A mistake.
00:13:13.015 --> 00:13:14.383
Maybe i'm--maybe he's right, maybe i've gotten pulled into
00:13:14.383 --> 00:13:16.819
Something because of my fears or my own insecurities or emotion
00:13:16.819 --> 00:13:20.956
About it something.
00:13:20.956 --> 00:13:22.291
Leslie: but it was so clear, and it was so clear that it was
00:13:22.291 --> 00:13:24.159
Right, and god was so evident to me, and i mean i've never had
00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:30.933
Anything like that since, honestly, and i feel it was part
00:13:30.933 --> 00:13:33.269
Of god reaching out to get him to be who he wanted him to be.
00:13:33.269 --> 00:13:37.606
It was all a process of getting him to where he's writing books
00:13:37.606 --> 00:13:40.409
And doing what he does.
00:13:40.409 --> 00:13:41.777
Kirk: i love this, this is without a leslie strobel, there
00:13:41.777 --> 00:13:44.446
Would not be a lee strobel, and i'm so excited to dive in more
00:13:44.446 --> 00:13:48.684
About this.
00:13:48.684 --> 00:13:50.052
When we come back, lee and leslie will share more about how
00:13:50.052 --> 00:13:52.221
They cope with the differences of their beliefs and the power
00:13:52.221 --> 00:13:56.158
Of prayer.
00:13:56.158 --> 00:13:57.493
They've written all about it in "spiritual mismatch."
00:13:57.493 --> 00:13:59.762
Don't go away.
00:13:59.762 --> 00:14:01.764
[music]
00:14:01.764 --> 00:14:06.008
[music]
00:14:06.008 --> 00:14:07.038
[music]
00:14:07.371 --> 00:14:11.108
Kirk: welcome back, we are discussing being spiritually
00:14:13.644 --> 00:14:16.914
Mismatched with lee and leslie strobel.
00:14:16.914 --> 00:14:20.618
I love the color of this book.
00:14:20.618 --> 00:14:22.486
I love the cover, it's my favorite season, autumn, and the
00:14:22.486 --> 00:14:26.724
Topic is just so critical, because it's not only for people
00:14:26.724 --> 00:14:30.328
Who are mismatched as in you got an atheist and you have a
00:14:30.328 --> 00:14:34.031
Believer in god, you also have marriages where people are on
00:14:34.031 --> 00:14:37.435
Different levels of maturity within their faith.
00:14:37.435 --> 00:14:41.539
Leslie, i wanna go back to asking you a question.
00:14:41.539 --> 00:14:43.774
What was the worst part about being what the bible calls
00:14:43.774 --> 00:14:48.045
Spiritually mismatched or unequally yoked?
00:14:48.045 --> 00:14:52.717
Leslie: just not being able to do life the same way.
00:14:52.717 --> 00:14:55.453
I wanted--i mean, it affects how you spend your money, how
00:14:55.453 --> 00:14:58.122
You spend your free time, who your friends are, what you're
00:14:58.122 --> 00:15:01.459
Gonna do with the children in terms of raising them.
00:15:01.459 --> 00:15:04.628
I mean, every area of your life is affected if you
00:15:04.628 --> 00:15:07.631
Are mismatched.
00:15:07.631 --> 00:15:09.166
And so once i became a believer, i was looking towards the future
00:15:09.166 --> 00:15:13.804
And thinking i don't even know what this looks like.
00:15:13.804 --> 00:15:16.307
How am i gonna do life as a christian when he is so adamant
00:15:16.307 --> 00:15:20.745
About not going that route?
00:15:20.745 --> 00:15:23.481
So it was really nerve-wracking.
00:15:23.481 --> 00:15:25.683
Lee: i remember one day she came to me, and she said that she
00:15:25.683 --> 00:15:28.386
Wanted to give some money to the church.
00:15:28.386 --> 00:15:30.521
And i said, "i got a good idea.
00:15:30.521 --> 00:15:32.690
Instead of doing that, why don't you to flush it down
00:15:32.690 --> 00:15:34.358
The toilet?"
00:15:34.358 --> 00:15:35.726
It's the same effect, it's not gonna make any
00:15:35.726 --> 00:15:37.495
Difference whatsoever.
00:15:37.495 --> 00:15:38.829
Kirk: right, in fact, it's worse to give it to the church,
00:15:38.829 --> 00:15:40.431
Because they're feeding other people.
00:15:40.431 --> 00:15:41.899
Lee: they're propagating fiction.
00:15:41.899 --> 00:15:43.968
And so she actually got a job just so she could give some
00:15:43.968 --> 00:15:47.238
Money to the church.
00:15:47.238 --> 00:15:48.606
And the funny thing is she finally came up to me and said,
00:15:48.606 --> 00:15:51.142
"lee, i've got this job.
00:15:51.142 --> 00:15:52.643
I'd like to give the money to the church."
00:15:52.643 --> 00:15:54.011
And i said, "hey, you know what?
00:15:54.011 --> 00:15:56.147
You earned it, and if you want to do that, you go ahead."
00:15:56.147 --> 00:15:59.517
And so she did, and then she gets a call from her boss who
00:15:59.517 --> 00:16:02.453
Says, "hey, we made a mistake with your time sheets on
00:16:02.453 --> 00:16:04.889
Your job."
00:16:04.889 --> 00:16:06.223
She said, "oh no, do i owe you money?"
00:16:06.223 --> 00:16:07.591
He said, "no, we owe you," and it was the exact amount she had
00:16:07.591 --> 00:16:10.227
Donated to the church.
00:16:10.227 --> 00:16:11.829
So, isn't that amazing?
00:16:11.829 --> 00:16:14.265
Kirk: that's right, and all this is registering with you, it's a
00:16:14.265 --> 00:16:16.500
Little bit weird, yeah, yeah.
00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:19.603
So, how did you cope with this when he was like you might as
00:16:19.603 --> 00:16:21.972
Well flush those tithing dollars down the toilet?
00:16:21.972 --> 00:16:25.109
Did you just pray for this poor soul?
00:16:25.109 --> 00:16:27.344
Did you get frustrated with him?
00:16:27.344 --> 00:16:29.113
Leslie: yes.
00:16:29.113 --> 00:16:30.481
Kirk: all of it.
00:16:30.481 --> 00:16:31.816
Leslie: all of it, but i would get on the phone with linda and
00:16:31.816 --> 00:16:33.684
Say, you know, guess what he did now, you know?
00:16:33.684 --> 00:16:35.052
And she would listen.
00:16:35.052 --> 00:16:36.554
But then we would just pray about it, and she would say
00:16:36.554 --> 00:16:39.090
God's working.
00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:40.424
Don't think that he isn't.
00:16:40.424 --> 00:16:41.959
Just keep praying for him and trust that there's gonna be two
00:16:41.959 --> 00:16:45.396
Steps forward, three steps back, and we'll just continue to pray.
00:16:45.396 --> 00:16:48.732
And so i did, and i mean it was always a matter of just, lord,
00:16:48.732 --> 00:16:51.335
Give me strength, help me to cope in a way that shines your
00:16:51.335 --> 00:16:55.940
Light into this mess, and just help me be who you want me
00:16:55.940 --> 00:16:59.610
To be.
00:16:59.610 --> 00:17:00.978
And that was sort of my war cry, just help me to be who you want
00:17:00.978 --> 00:17:03.114
Me to be so that it reflects you to him.
00:17:03.114 --> 00:17:05.316
Lee: and the ezekiel verse.
00:17:05.316 --> 00:17:06.817
Leslie: yeah, i mean, i prayed ezekiel 36:26, which says,
00:17:06.817 --> 00:17:09.420
"moreover, give him a new heart, give him new and right desires.
00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:12.756
Take his stony heart of sin and give him a heart of flesh."
00:17:12.756 --> 00:17:15.693
And i just prayed that every day for him.
00:17:15.693 --> 00:17:19.196
Lee: which i never knew the whole two years, you know, it
00:17:19.196 --> 00:17:21.332
Started me on my investigation to disprove christianity, to
00:17:21.332 --> 00:17:25.035
Rescue her from this cult that she's gotten involved in.
00:17:25.035 --> 00:17:27.705
So i started using my journalism training and legal training to
00:17:27.705 --> 00:17:31.475
Investigate whether there's any credibility to christianity.
00:17:31.475 --> 00:17:34.044
And what i never knew, and it took me two years to do that.
00:17:34.044 --> 00:17:36.680
And the whole time, every day she's praying that verse,
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.116
Ezekiel 36:26 for me, and i didn't know it at the time.
00:17:39.116 --> 00:17:42.052
Leslie: and i had other people praying it too.
00:17:42.052 --> 00:17:43.554
There were a bunch of us.
00:17:43.554 --> 00:17:44.922
Kirk: yeah, that's right, you were a goner.
00:17:44.922 --> 00:17:47.158
Lee: i was.
00:17:47.158 --> 00:17:48.492
Kirk: with her praying for you and everybody else praying for
00:17:48.492 --> 00:17:50.494
You, you didn't have a chance.
00:17:50.494 --> 00:17:51.829
Leslie: just a matter of time.
00:17:51.829 --> 00:17:53.164
Kirk: what was the worst part for you, lee, watching her go
00:17:53.164 --> 00:17:55.599
Through this transformation process and despite your efforts
00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.669
Of mowing down her flowers and kicking in her walls, she just
00:17:58.669 --> 00:18:03.040
Kept going deeper and deeper into this relationship with her
00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:05.809
Imaginary friend?
00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:07.144
Lee: yeah, i saw no future.
00:18:07.144 --> 00:18:09.914
I thought, you know, she's gonna turn the kid against me in one
00:18:09.914 --> 00:18:13.050
Way or the other, because if she convinces them to be christians,
00:18:13.050 --> 00:18:16.754
What's their attitude toward me gonna be?
00:18:16.754 --> 00:18:18.222
Oh, poor dad, he's headed for hell.
00:18:18.222 --> 00:18:20.925
He's, you know, he's a pagan, he's an atheist, and i don't
00:18:20.925 --> 00:18:24.161
Want my kids not respecting me, so are they gonna pity me?
00:18:24.161 --> 00:18:28.132
Are they gonna have, you know, be ashamed of me because i
00:18:28.132 --> 00:18:31.635
Don't believe?
00:18:31.635 --> 00:18:33.003
So there's all these implications, and i just saw her
00:18:33.003 --> 00:18:36.774
Increasingly be pulled away into this subculture, and it
00:18:36.774 --> 00:18:42.279
Worried me.
00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:43.614
I really thought this was gonna be the end, and then i thought,
00:18:43.614 --> 00:18:45.449
Well, maybe if i could disprove the resurrection of jesus,
00:18:45.449 --> 00:18:49.320
Because i understood even as an atheist, that's the linchpin of
00:18:49.320 --> 00:18:51.689
The faith, i could get--i could convince her that this
00:18:51.689 --> 00:18:54.992
Is make-believe.
00:18:54.992 --> 00:18:56.327
Kirk: okay, now, leslie, were you not only praying for him,
00:18:56.327 --> 00:19:01.198
But did you get the courage to try to share the gospel with
00:19:01.198 --> 00:19:06.403
Him, to get him to come over to your side?
00:19:06.403 --> 00:19:08.505
What was that like?
00:19:08.505 --> 00:19:09.873
Leslie: but i'm not an evangelist, and so i'm like
00:19:09.873 --> 00:19:12.576
Stuffing his sock drawer with notes, and on the bathroom
00:19:12.576 --> 00:19:15.512
Mirror verses.
00:19:15.512 --> 00:19:16.880
Kirk: you're writing scripture verses on the mirror with
00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.583
Shaving cream.
00:19:19.583 --> 00:19:20.951
Lee: she'd leave books open underlined with things on the
00:19:20.951 --> 00:19:23.954
Coffee table.
00:19:23.954 --> 00:19:25.322
Kirk: subtle, very subtle.
00:19:25.322 --> 00:19:26.657
Lee: to which i just close the book.
00:19:26.657 --> 00:19:28.125
Leslie: yeah, he'd open a suitcase on the road, and
00:19:28.125 --> 00:19:30.194
There'd be some.
00:19:30.194 --> 00:19:31.528
I mean, i thought i was being really effective, but i wasn't.
00:19:31.528 --> 00:19:35.299
But i mean, i would try to explain, but he's a lawyer.
00:19:35.299 --> 00:19:39.937
I mean, i wasn't getting anywhere with dialogue,
00:19:39.937 --> 00:19:42.373
You know?
00:19:42.373 --> 00:19:43.741
There was no arguing with him.
00:19:43.741 --> 00:19:45.509
Kirk: and knowing just the mind and the brain that he is and the
00:19:45.509 --> 00:19:49.380
Way that he thinks and all of his evidence that he wants in
00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:52.549
Order to solve a crime, he's probably asking you all these
00:19:52.549 --> 00:19:56.253
Questions, expecting you to be the world-class apologist to
00:19:56.253 --> 00:20:00.591
Answer them.
00:20:00.591 --> 00:20:01.925
Leslie: exactly, because i'm not an apologist.
00:20:01.925 --> 00:20:03.294
I would read, and that just isn't--i mean, i'm more heart,
00:20:03.294 --> 00:20:05.229
I'm more feeling-oriented, and he wasn't having any of that.
00:20:05.229 --> 00:20:08.432
Kirk: but that didn't shake your faith when he'd ask you these
00:20:08.432 --> 00:20:10.501
Hard questions.
00:20:10.501 --> 00:20:11.869
Leslie: it didn't, because i knew there were answers.
00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:13.203
I just wasn't articulate enough to get them out.
00:20:13.203 --> 00:20:14.938
Lee: you were a new believer.
00:20:14.938 --> 00:20:16.273
Leslie: i was a new believer, right?
00:20:16.273 --> 00:20:17.808
Kirk: and lee, how did you react when she started to directly
00:20:17.808 --> 00:20:21.879
Confront you with the claims of scripture and the gospel?
00:20:21.879 --> 00:20:25.916
Lee: i would blow it off.
00:20:25.916 --> 00:20:27.351
It's like, you know, she'd leave a little note for me or
00:20:27.351 --> 00:20:31.055
Something, and it's like, you know, i just would let it roll
00:20:31.055 --> 00:20:33.590
Off my back and try not to get it, because i'd get
00:20:33.590 --> 00:20:36.226
Angry otherwise.
00:20:36.226 --> 00:20:37.594
And i had anger issues.
00:20:37.594 --> 00:20:38.996
I was a heavy drinker, i'd get drunk, and i didn't wanna, you
00:20:38.996 --> 00:20:44.868
Know, react violently toward this stuff, but.
00:20:44.868 --> 00:20:48.172
Kirk: but you thought my marriage is over, my
00:20:48.172 --> 00:20:50.941
Relationship with my children is gonna be damaged.
00:20:50.941 --> 00:20:53.510
Okay, now, leslie, there is a section of the book called
00:20:53.510 --> 00:20:56.814
Plagued by misplaced guilt.
00:20:56.814 --> 00:20:59.516
Unpack that for us.
00:20:59.516 --> 00:21:02.519
Leslie: well, you tend to want your partner to become a
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:06.423
Believer, and you take it on yourself to make it happen, but
00:21:06.423 --> 00:21:10.160
We're not called to do that.
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:11.562
God doesn't want--i mean, it's not our job.
00:21:11.562 --> 00:21:13.764
Lee: you felt it was your fault.
00:21:13.764 --> 00:21:15.132
Leslie: yes, yes, why am i not being able to reach him?
00:21:15.132 --> 00:21:18.202
And then again, linda had those words of wisdom, saying it's not
00:21:18.202 --> 00:21:21.271
Your job to bring him over the line of faith.
00:21:21.271 --> 00:21:23.006
That's god's job.
00:21:23.006 --> 00:21:24.441
All it is for you--yes, all it is for you is to be the light in
00:21:24.441 --> 00:21:29.213
His life to let him see what god is going to do in a life that's
00:21:29.213 --> 00:21:33.717
Changed, and he's seeing that.
00:21:33.717 --> 00:21:35.219
She said he is seeing changes in you, and i wasn't feeling like i
00:21:35.219 --> 00:21:38.522
Was that different, but he says that he did see.
00:21:38.522 --> 00:21:41.859
Lee: well, and 1 peter 3, talks about how it's a wife's
00:21:41.859 --> 00:21:45.496
Behavior, not necessarily the words, it's about her behavior
00:21:45.496 --> 00:21:49.199
Is gonna impact her spouse, and i began to see positive changes
00:21:49.199 --> 00:21:54.238
In her character, in her values, in the way she related to me and
00:21:54.238 --> 00:21:57.141
The kids, the way she despite my ugly response, she
00:21:57.141 --> 00:22:01.779
Was still loving, she was still kind, she was still forgiving,
00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:05.716
The way she interacted with the kids, more patience, more
00:22:05.716 --> 00:22:09.319
Kindness with them, and so i'm watching this transformation
00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:13.157
Begin to take place, and that was the part that was kind of
00:22:13.157 --> 00:22:15.826
Pulling me toward that.
00:22:15.826 --> 00:22:17.161
There was that part of it that said, well, maybe there is
00:22:17.161 --> 00:22:19.730
Something here, because she's always a wonderful person,
00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:21.899
That's why i married her.
00:22:21.899 --> 00:22:23.233
Leslie: but it says what i was like prior to being a christian,
00:22:23.233 --> 00:22:26.437
Because we would have been more at odds, you know?
00:22:26.437 --> 00:22:29.807
A lot more fighting, and i wasn't doing that anymore.
00:22:29.807 --> 00:22:32.609
I wasn't getting back.
00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:33.977
Lee: she didn't respond the way i thought she'd respond.
00:22:33.977 --> 00:22:35.579
I thought she would respond with equal anger.
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.182
Leslie: which i would have.
00:22:38.182 --> 00:22:39.516
Lee: you would have, but with god's help--
00:22:39.516 --> 00:22:40.884
Leslie: and i changed.
00:22:40.884 --> 00:22:42.319
Kirk: that's fascinating to me that you were being impacted not
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:48.525
By answers to all of your questions from leslie, but by
00:22:48.525 --> 00:22:52.796
The transformation of her life by the power of the spirit of
00:22:52.796 --> 00:22:56.600
God working within her.
00:22:56.600 --> 00:22:58.635
Lee: because i knew her so well, and i thought i know how i'm
00:22:58.635 --> 00:23:01.371
Acting toward her, i'm expecting her to react in the same way,
00:23:01.371 --> 00:23:05.175
And she didn't.
00:23:05.175 --> 00:23:06.543
And it's like maybe there's something--something was
00:23:06.543 --> 00:23:08.412
Changing, and it was good.
00:23:08.412 --> 00:23:10.481
Kirk: and so you had this tug of war of, like,
00:23:10.481 --> 00:23:13.317
I hate this, i like this, i hate this, i'm intrigued by it.
00:23:13.317 --> 00:23:16.453
Lee: that's why when i did my investigation, i didn't do it
00:23:16.453 --> 00:23:19.756
Intending to disprove.
00:23:19.756 --> 00:23:21.291
My attitude was i'm gonna do an honest investigation.
00:23:21.291 --> 00:23:25.128
I'm gonna call a ball a ball and a strike a strike.
00:23:25.128 --> 00:23:27.264
I hope it disproves christianity.
00:23:27.264 --> 00:23:29.600
Kirk: and i get my wife back. lee: and i get my wife back.
00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:31.502
But either--but i'm gonna reach an honest verdict, because i was
00:23:31.502 --> 00:23:34.872
Being pulled toward the positive as well as reacting to
00:23:34.872 --> 00:23:38.308
The negative.
00:23:38.308 --> 00:23:39.643
Kirk: lee, what advice can you give to wives who are having
00:23:39.643 --> 00:23:45.849
Difficulty approaching an unbelieving husband?
00:23:45.849 --> 00:23:50.554
Lee: yeah, i think to keep in mind it is our behavior that is
00:23:50.554 --> 00:23:54.458
Gonna impact them.
00:23:54.458 --> 00:23:55.826
And so--and one of the things is when we did have an argument,
00:23:55.826 --> 00:23:59.196
When we did have a dispute about spiritual matters or whatever,
00:23:59.196 --> 00:24:03.000
And i would recoil, i would step back, she didn't, she reached
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.905
Out to me.
00:24:07.905 --> 00:24:09.239
That was probably the thing that saved our marriage, because i
00:24:09.239 --> 00:24:12.576
Would--we'd have an argument about something.
00:24:12.576 --> 00:24:14.578
She wants to go to church.
00:24:14.578 --> 00:24:15.946
I'm not going to church.
00:24:15.946 --> 00:24:17.281
I wanna go up to wisconsin for a couple of days and relax.
00:24:17.281 --> 00:24:19.016
I've been busy, i've been stressed out, i wanna get out of
00:24:19.016 --> 00:24:20.984
Town and relax.
00:24:20.984 --> 00:24:22.319
Let's do that.
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:23.687
No, i wanna go to church, blah-blah-blah.
00:24:23.687 --> 00:24:25.022
And so i would react and recoil, and i thought she would, too,
00:24:25.022 --> 00:24:31.061
But then she would reach out to me.
00:24:31.061 --> 00:24:33.263
She would say, hey, "you know what?
00:24:33.263 --> 00:24:36.033
Let's go to wisconsin.
00:24:36.033 --> 00:24:37.367
Let's--we could do that this weekend.
00:24:37.367 --> 00:24:38.969
Yeah, i know you've been working hard."
00:24:38.969 --> 00:24:40.837
So she built this bridge to me in the midst of that, that was
00:24:40.837 --> 00:24:45.275
Unexpected to me and drew me back to her, and it made me ask
00:24:45.275 --> 00:24:50.314
The question what is changing in her that she isn't reacting
00:24:50.314 --> 00:24:55.085
Equal and opposite the way i'm acting, but she's kind and
00:24:55.085 --> 00:24:59.156
Gentle and forgiving, and so that was a very big part of me
00:24:59.156 --> 00:25:06.663
Saying maybe there is something going on here, maybe there's--
00:25:06.663 --> 00:25:10.033
Kirk: and leslie, was that difficult to respond that way
00:25:10.033 --> 00:25:14.371
When he was being so confrontational?
00:25:14.371 --> 00:25:17.174
Leslie: yes, it was--i mean, he'd be mad, he'd go off, and
00:25:17.174 --> 00:25:20.143
I'd be in maybe in the kitchen, he's in his office, and i would
00:25:20.143 --> 00:25:22.846
Just go, lord, help me here, you know?
00:25:22.846 --> 00:25:25.115
And i would sense god saying, again, you're the christian, you
00:25:25.115 --> 00:25:30.487
Know how to react in this, take a deep breath.
00:25:30.487 --> 00:25:33.624
And again, wisdom from linda.
00:25:33.624 --> 00:25:35.826
She would say god doesn't need you in church if it's gonna ruin
00:25:35.826 --> 00:25:39.162
Your marriage.
00:25:39.162 --> 00:25:40.497
He wants your marriage intact.
00:25:40.497 --> 00:25:41.865
It doesn't hurt to go away to wisconsin this weekend if that's
00:25:41.865 --> 00:25:45.235
Really gonna make the difference here.
00:25:45.235 --> 00:25:47.270
Go ahead and go to wisconsin.
00:25:47.270 --> 00:25:49.172
Don't, you know, don't feel like you have to just dig in your
00:25:49.172 --> 00:25:52.009
Heels and say no, i'm going off to church and then get him
00:25:52.009 --> 00:25:54.244
Angrier and angrier.
00:25:54.244 --> 00:25:55.579
And so, you know, some of that was just being able to have a
00:25:55.579 --> 00:25:59.049
Mentor that helped.
00:25:59.049 --> 00:26:01.351
And that is really key, because i was a new believer, you know?
00:26:01.351 --> 00:26:05.255
I didn't have all the answers, but it helped to have someone
00:26:05.255 --> 00:26:07.858
Who was wise and older in the faith.
00:26:07.858 --> 00:26:10.193
Lee: like when leslie told linda that she wanted to give some
00:26:10.193 --> 00:26:13.163
Money to the church, and linda's advice was, you know what?
00:26:13.163 --> 00:26:17.034
God doesn't need your money, he wants your heart, and he knows
00:26:17.034 --> 00:26:21.238
Your heart is to give.
00:26:21.238 --> 00:26:24.141
Leslie: but i felt the strong sense, and god provided.
00:26:24.141 --> 00:26:26.743
Lee: don't let that blow your marriage up.
00:26:26.743 --> 00:26:28.545
Kirk: right, right, boy, this is--boy, this is so important,
00:26:28.545 --> 00:26:31.248
Because i think it's easy to do that.
00:26:31.248 --> 00:26:33.183
It's like, no, my allegiance is to god, and if this pagan over
00:26:33.183 --> 00:26:36.953
Here is not gonna, you know, surrender his life, well, he's
00:26:36.953 --> 00:26:40.724
Not going to ruin my relationship with jesus.
00:26:40.724 --> 00:26:43.894
We've got to talk more after the break.
00:26:43.894 --> 00:26:46.229
Leslie is going to share how she kept her marriage going through
00:26:46.229 --> 00:26:49.032
Those difficult times, waiting on god, and then lee is going to
00:26:49.032 --> 00:26:52.669
Share how he finally came to know jesus as his savior,
00:26:52.669 --> 00:26:56.373
So stay with us.
00:26:56.373 --> 00:26:58.375
[music]
00:26:58.375 --> 00:27:03.003
[music]
00:27:03.003 --> 00:27:03.580
[music]
00:27:03.914 --> 00:27:07.651
Kirk: if you are married to an unbeliever, what are some steps
00:27:10.454 --> 00:27:13.590
That you can take to keep your marriage going in the right
00:27:13.590 --> 00:27:16.393
Direction, toward god, and maintain the peace with
00:27:16.393 --> 00:27:20.197
Your spouse?
00:27:20.197 --> 00:27:21.565
We're gonna look at a few of these strategies with lee and
00:27:21.565 --> 00:27:23.567
Leslie strobel right now from their book,
00:27:23.567 --> 00:27:25.902
"spiritual mismatch."
00:27:25.902 --> 00:27:28.338
So we've gotten deep into the story here and deep into
00:27:28.338 --> 00:27:31.641
The mismatch.
00:27:31.641 --> 00:27:33.009
Lee: embarrassingly so.
00:27:33.009 --> 00:27:34.344
Kirk: this has been terrific, because it's when we show people
00:27:34.344 --> 00:27:37.714
Our scars, and we admit our mistakes that people like you
00:27:37.714 --> 00:27:41.351
Finally seem human, and we feel like we can now open up and say
00:27:41.351 --> 00:27:45.522
Okay, i didn't feel like i could share this with anybody, but i
00:27:45.522 --> 00:27:48.759
Think you'll understand.
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:50.627
And now we can find healing.
00:27:50.627 --> 00:27:52.529
Leslie, what are the three key things you share in your book
00:27:52.529 --> 00:27:56.266
That you did to keep your marriage afloat during these
00:27:56.266 --> 00:27:59.302
Difficult times?
00:27:59.302 --> 00:28:00.637
Leslie: well, first of all, it was growing in the lord, keeping
00:28:00.637 --> 00:28:03.406
My relationship with god strong and to learn more about him, to
00:28:03.406 --> 00:28:07.444
Be in prayer.
00:28:07.444 --> 00:28:08.845
The second would be to have a mentor.
00:28:08.845 --> 00:28:11.047
If there's any way you're able to find someone who's more
00:28:11.047 --> 00:28:15.685
Mature than you spiritually.
00:28:15.685 --> 00:28:17.621
It might even be someone younger than you, but someone who's been
00:28:17.621 --> 00:28:20.590
Walking with god for a longer period of time and is grounded
00:28:20.590 --> 00:28:23.460
And is strong in their faith, just to be a sounding board or a
00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:26.663
Friend, just to hear you out, to pray with you, and to kind of
00:28:26.663 --> 00:28:29.900
Keep you on the right path, and then to continue to build on
00:28:29.900 --> 00:28:34.271
What you had with your husband.
00:28:34.271 --> 00:28:36.106
You fell in love with him for a reason.
00:28:36.106 --> 00:28:38.642
There's things that you had that you enjoyed doing together, you
00:28:38.642 --> 00:28:41.845
Have things in common, and you really have to go back to that
00:28:41.845 --> 00:28:44.915
And build on it.
00:28:44.915 --> 00:28:46.283
When you're normally butting heads a lot over faith issues,
00:28:46.283 --> 00:28:50.120
You wanna just keep going back to going out to meals together,
00:28:50.120 --> 00:28:54.324
Walks, hikes.
00:28:54.324 --> 00:28:55.792
Kirk: yeah, go back, do the things you did when you fell
00:28:55.792 --> 00:28:58.295
In love.
00:28:58.295 --> 00:28:59.629
Leslie: exactly.
00:28:59.629 --> 00:29:00.997
Lee: because you marry the person for a reason, you love
00:29:00.997 --> 00:29:02.499
Them, so build on those things, and that was so important to me
00:29:02.499 --> 00:29:05.435
When i would, as i say, is i would get angry and sulk, and
00:29:05.435 --> 00:29:08.371
That's my tendency to shut down, and she would say, hey, let's go
00:29:08.371 --> 00:29:11.608
On a bike ride.
00:29:11.608 --> 00:29:12.943
We loved going on bike rides back then.
00:29:12.943 --> 00:29:14.311
So, let's take a bike.
00:29:14.311 --> 00:29:15.645
Oh, that'd be nice.
00:29:15.645 --> 00:29:17.013
And, you know, it just reconnected us at that level,
00:29:17.013 --> 00:29:19.516
And i thought maybe there is hope.
00:29:19.516 --> 00:29:21.384
Kirk: you know what really resonates with me with what you
00:29:21.384 --> 00:29:23.587
Said, leslie, is the value of a mentor in your life.
00:29:23.587 --> 00:29:26.823
What a great opportunity for maybe older men or women to
00:29:26.823 --> 00:29:33.997
Offer to be a mentor to younger couples.
00:29:33.997 --> 00:29:38.235
Sometimes we wish for the day when our own children will come
00:29:38.235 --> 00:29:42.138
To us and say, "dad, will you mentor me in marriage?
00:29:42.138 --> 00:29:46.076
Mom, will you--" and why are we laughing?
00:29:46.076 --> 00:29:48.245
Because that doesn't often happen that way.
00:29:48.245 --> 00:29:51.114
We look to somebody outside the family, so maybe you could
00:29:51.114 --> 00:29:54.017
Mentor somebody who's not in your family, because they, too,
00:29:54.017 --> 00:29:57.921
Probably have those challenges with their parents.
00:29:57.921 --> 00:30:01.124
Lee: it's a great ministry, and any--i mean, a larger church
00:30:01.124 --> 00:30:04.027
Maybe could even have a whole ministry on spiritual mismatch
00:30:04.027 --> 00:30:07.063
Issues and match people up or provide mentors for people in
00:30:07.063 --> 00:30:10.800
The congregation who are facing this kind of situation.
00:30:10.800 --> 00:30:13.403
Linda is still friends after all these years.
00:30:13.403 --> 00:30:15.972
She just retired as a nurse, and she lives up in washington
00:30:15.972 --> 00:30:18.475
State, and we still keep in touch with linda.
00:30:18.475 --> 00:30:21.444
Thank god for linda.
00:30:21.444 --> 00:30:22.779
Kirk: i know, we've been hearing about linda.
00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:25.348
Lee: yeah, she's awesome.
00:30:25.348 --> 00:30:27.150
Kirk: so, lee, let's get back to the story.
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:29.586
Now, you finally agreed to go to church with leslie on january
00:30:29.586 --> 00:30:34.391
20th, 1980.
00:30:34.391 --> 00:30:38.595
I've always felt that the '80s were the best decade, but for
00:30:38.595 --> 00:30:41.364
You, this was really a banner 10 years, because this was the
00:30:41.364 --> 00:30:45.101
Beginning of your spiritual walk with jesus.
00:30:45.101 --> 00:30:47.704
So what was it that convinced you?
00:30:47.704 --> 00:30:49.806
And what was that like to go to church?
00:30:49.806 --> 00:30:51.641
Lee: it was intimidating, it was scary, it was uncomfortable,
00:30:51.641 --> 00:30:56.279
Because i felt i didn't know what to do.
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:58.248
People are standing, people are sitting, people are, you know,
00:30:58.248 --> 00:31:01.084
They all seem to know each other, many of them, i don't.
00:31:01.084 --> 00:31:03.653
It's a--people don't realize this.
00:31:03.653 --> 00:31:05.522
If you're part of a church as a christian, you have an outsider
00:31:05.522 --> 00:31:08.525
Come in, it's a very uncomfortable feeling.
00:31:08.525 --> 00:31:12.963
But interestingly, that day, guess what the topic of the
00:31:12.963 --> 00:31:15.632
Sermon was?
00:31:15.632 --> 00:31:17.000
Basic christianity, and it was the gospel.
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:20.270
Kirk: okay.
00:31:20.270 --> 00:31:21.638
Lee: and the pastor delivered a clear, crystal-clear message on
00:31:21.638 --> 00:31:24.374
The gospel, and i'm sitting there thinking, listening to
00:31:24.374 --> 00:31:26.810
This thing, and i'm thinking i don't believe this, but i
00:31:26.810 --> 00:31:31.514
Get it.
00:31:31.514 --> 00:31:32.849
Now i understand what christianity is about.
00:31:32.849 --> 00:31:34.884
And secondly, i realize if this is true, this has huge
00:31:34.884 --> 00:31:38.621
Implications for my life.
00:31:38.621 --> 00:31:40.190
Kirk: right, and this probably also now explains what has been
00:31:40.190 --> 00:31:43.026
Happening to your wife and why she's taking this so seriously.
00:31:43.026 --> 00:31:46.596
It really softened my heart a bit, because i realized, oh my
00:31:46.596 --> 00:31:49.399
Goodness, she's not crazy, there is logic behind this, there is
00:31:49.399 --> 00:31:53.970
Reason behind this, it does make sense, and i didn't believe it,
00:31:53.970 --> 00:31:57.874
But it makes a certain amount of sense, and it is worth my time
00:31:57.874 --> 00:32:02.479
And worth my effort to check into it, to see is there any
00:32:02.479 --> 00:32:06.116
Evidence that historically this is true?
00:32:06.116 --> 00:32:08.952
So i thought i've got nothing to lose, because if i do an
00:32:08.952 --> 00:32:12.789
Investigation and determine this is make-believe, it's legend,
00:32:12.789 --> 00:32:15.358
It's mythology, it's wishful thinking, if i figure that out,
00:32:15.358 --> 00:32:18.428
Then i think i can rescue her from this cult and show her,
00:32:18.428 --> 00:32:21.097
Leslie, here's the evidence, it doesn't make sense.
00:32:21.097 --> 00:32:23.666
But if i find out it's true, then it changes everything.
00:32:23.666 --> 00:32:27.904
And that's, of course, what ended up happening after
00:32:27.904 --> 00:32:30.140
Two years.
00:32:30.140 --> 00:32:31.474
Kirk: so, what was it about your investigation, using your
00:32:31.474 --> 00:32:35.311
Investigator journalism skills that brought you to true faith
00:32:35.311 --> 00:32:40.383
In jesus christ?
00:32:40.383 --> 00:32:41.751
Lee: it really was the historical data for the
00:32:41.751 --> 00:32:43.219
Resurrection of jesus.
00:32:43.219 --> 00:32:44.587
Kirk: it was the resurrection, that was the key issue.
00:32:44.587 --> 00:32:46.122
It wasn't is the bible really a document we can trust?
00:32:46.122 --> 00:32:48.725
Lee: that was part of it, because there are claims in the
00:32:48.725 --> 00:32:51.694
Bible that jesus did return from the dead.
00:32:51.694 --> 00:32:54.264
So can i trust the gospels?
00:32:54.264 --> 00:32:56.332
Can i trust the new testament and so forth?
00:32:56.332 --> 00:32:58.935
So that was a factor.
00:32:58.935 --> 00:33:00.336
So i had to investigate the bible, see if i could trust the
00:33:00.336 --> 00:33:02.739
New testament.
00:33:02.739 --> 00:33:04.074
I had to look at history and see what does history tell me about
00:33:04.074 --> 00:33:07.110
The resurrection.
00:33:07.110 --> 00:33:09.179
So i'm looking inside the bible, outside the bible, and i'm
00:33:09.179 --> 00:33:12.749
Looking at science and other factors, too, but it really
00:33:12.749 --> 00:33:15.385
Turned out to be the resurrection, because i figured
00:33:15.385 --> 00:33:18.254
As i looked at things, jesus clearly made messianic and
00:33:18.254 --> 00:33:21.691
Divine claims about himself.
00:33:21.691 --> 00:33:23.359
At one point, he said to a group, "i and the father are
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.196
One," and the greek word for one there is neuter, not the
00:33:26.196 --> 00:33:29.099
Masculine, which means jesus was not saying, "i and the father
00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:31.568
Are the same person," he was saying, "i and the father are
00:33:31.568 --> 00:33:33.903
The same thing," we're one in nature, we're one in--and the
00:33:33.903 --> 00:33:36.473
Audience got it.
00:33:36.473 --> 00:33:37.807
Oh, you're claiming to be god, and they were gonna kill him for
00:33:37.807 --> 00:33:40.610
Lying about god.
00:33:40.610 --> 00:33:43.046
So jesus claimed, but so what?
00:33:43.046 --> 00:33:44.447
I could say that, you could, anybody could claim to be god,
00:33:44.447 --> 00:33:47.317
But i figured if jesus claimed to be god, which he clearly did,
00:33:47.317 --> 00:33:52.122
Died, and then three days later returned from the dead, that's
00:33:52.122 --> 00:33:55.625
Pretty good evidence.
00:33:55.625 --> 00:33:56.960
Kirk: and convinced all of his buddies, and then they go lay
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.862
Down their life and live-- die martyrs' deaths for it,
00:33:58.862 --> 00:34:02.832
That's got--
00:34:02.832 --> 00:34:04.167
Lee: there's a lot of evidence inside and outside the new
00:34:04.167 --> 00:34:06.169
Testament, so.
00:34:06.169 --> 00:34:07.504
Kirk: all right, i wanna get back to the relationship and not
00:34:07.504 --> 00:34:09.339
Turn this into a case for christ, because we could go
00:34:09.339 --> 00:34:11.341
There like this, because i love apologetics.
00:34:11.341 --> 00:34:15.211
Leslie, you talk about the emotional ups and downs of lee's
00:34:15.211 --> 00:34:18.982
Process of faith, right?
00:34:18.982 --> 00:34:20.783
He's there, he's not there.
00:34:20.783 --> 00:34:22.452
He's getting it, no, he didn't get it.
00:34:22.452 --> 00:34:25.054
Okay, what advice do you have for wives who are waiting on god
00:34:25.054 --> 00:34:28.658
To move in their husbands?
00:34:28.658 --> 00:34:30.493
Leslie: well, it's just prayer.
00:34:30.493 --> 00:34:31.828
I mean, what else--you have nothing else but prayer.
00:34:31.828 --> 00:34:34.564
You're waiting on them, and that's not going to help you.
00:34:34.564 --> 00:34:36.866
I mean, you really just need to--i mean, again, it's not a
00:34:36.866 --> 00:34:39.936
Genie in the bottle, but ezekiel 36:26, i feel like it's just
00:34:39.936 --> 00:34:43.973
Such a good verse to claim for that, because you're asking god
00:34:43.973 --> 00:34:48.077
To change the heart of this person and to give them new and
00:34:48.077 --> 00:34:51.948
Right desires.
00:34:51.948 --> 00:34:53.917
And so i just felt like that verse, which honestly god used,
00:34:53.917 --> 00:35:00.190
Was the answer, and it gave me a good foundation.
00:35:00.190 --> 00:35:04.627
I mean, it was as much for me as you, because i'd be praying that
00:35:04.627 --> 00:35:08.198
For you, and i'd be thinking if god's doing that, i have nothing
00:35:08.198 --> 00:35:11.601
To fear, because it's just a matter of time.
00:35:11.601 --> 00:35:14.437
Lee: you figured he was gonna answer the prayer one way or
00:35:14.437 --> 00:35:16.272
The other.
00:35:16.272 --> 00:35:17.607
Leslie: i did, yeah.
00:35:17.607 --> 00:35:18.975
Kirk: that is so important, i think for those of us who just
00:35:18.975 --> 00:35:21.177
Long for our loved ones to come to jesus, whether it's a spouse
00:35:21.177 --> 00:35:24.414
Or it's a child or it's a parent, it's so easy to get into
00:35:24.414 --> 00:35:30.019
That place of saying if only i was an apologist, if only i was
00:35:30.019 --> 00:35:34.624
Like linda, if only i was like lee strobel, and i've got people
00:35:34.624 --> 00:35:38.361
In my life right now that i'm thinking that about, and i'm
00:35:38.361 --> 00:35:40.230
Thinking do i give him a case for christ, case for christmas?
00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:42.599
Do i throw the tactics book or evidence that demands a verdict?
00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:46.236
What can i do?
00:35:46.236 --> 00:35:47.570
And i think that they want to talk with me and be around a
00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:54.143
Real person, not just read another book, because there's
00:35:54.143 --> 00:35:57.547
Another book that's even bigger than your book that's gonna try
00:35:57.547 --> 00:36:00.783
To convince them the other way.
00:36:00.783 --> 00:36:02.151
And at the end of the day, it's gotta be the god of the universe
00:36:02.151 --> 00:36:06.122
Who changes their hearts.
00:36:06.122 --> 00:36:07.757
Leslie: and god can use books, but at some point it's really
00:36:07.757 --> 00:36:10.760
Them and god.
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:12.095
Kirk: it's them and god, and we can't change the desires of
00:36:12.095 --> 00:36:15.098
Their heart, only god can do that.
00:36:15.098 --> 00:36:16.466
Lee: i think there's three things to pray for, and you kind
00:36:16.466 --> 00:36:19.002
Of hit on this, but i think the first thing you pray for is for
00:36:19.002 --> 00:36:21.904
Yourself, that god would change you in ways that your spouse
00:36:21.904 --> 00:36:26.276
Would see the reality of god in you and sort of pray for
00:36:26.276 --> 00:36:30.580
Yourself, pray--and secondly, to pray for your spouse that god
00:36:30.580 --> 00:36:34.917
Would soften their heart, that god would open their eyes to the
00:36:34.917 --> 00:36:37.487
Truth of the gospel and so forth, and then thirdly, to pray
00:36:37.487 --> 00:36:40.356
For the marriage, you know?
00:36:40.356 --> 00:36:42.992
The relationship, that god, continue to strengthen our
00:36:42.992 --> 00:36:46.229
Relationship, keep us together, help us to focus on those things
00:36:46.229 --> 00:36:49.799
That we love doing together and so forth.
00:36:49.799 --> 00:36:52.568
It's just so important in our lives.
00:36:52.568 --> 00:36:54.504
So i think that do those kind of--and in the book we have a
00:36:54.504 --> 00:36:56.673
Whole prayer guide to help people, you know, kind of
00:36:56.673 --> 00:37:00.176
Structure prayer so that you can, you know, like a 30-day
00:37:00.176 --> 00:37:03.112
Prayer guide, and you can just repeat that every 30 days.
00:37:03.112 --> 00:37:06.382
Kirk: this is so helpful.
00:37:06.382 --> 00:37:08.318
We're gonna be right back with lee and leslie, sharing more
00:37:08.318 --> 00:37:11.421
Insights from their book, "spiritual mismatch,"
00:37:11.421 --> 00:37:13.756
So don't go away.
00:37:13.756 --> 00:37:15.758
[music]
00:37:15.758 --> 00:37:20.009
[music]
00:37:20.009 --> 00:37:20.341
[music]
00:37:20.674 --> 00:37:24.411
Kirk: we're back with lee and leslie strobel, sharing insights
00:37:27.247 --> 00:37:30.150
On being married to an unbeliever and how to pray
00:37:30.150 --> 00:37:33.187
For them.
00:37:33.187 --> 00:37:34.521
So, we're in the home stretch here, and i just couldn't
00:37:34.521 --> 00:37:39.460
Recommend your book enough to people who are struggling with
00:37:39.460 --> 00:37:43.997
Loving their spouse.
00:37:43.997 --> 00:37:45.599
They have a family, and yet they have this mismatch spiritually.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.472
What is your advice for those couples where both within the
00:37:51.472 --> 00:37:56.410
Marriage are believers, but they're at different places in
00:37:56.410 --> 00:38:00.347
Their spiritual maturity?
00:38:00.347 --> 00:38:02.383
Lee: and that's very, very common.
00:38:02.383 --> 00:38:04.118
One person's growing spiritually, and the
00:38:04.118 --> 00:38:05.853
Other isn't.
00:38:05.853 --> 00:38:07.221
One of the questions to ask, and this is especially true about
00:38:07.221 --> 00:38:09.223
Guys, if the woman in the relationship is saying he's just
00:38:09.223 --> 00:38:13.026
Not growing, like i'm growing, i'm thriving in my faith, and
00:38:13.026 --> 00:38:16.163
He's kind of lagging behind, you know, picture five guys who get
00:38:16.163 --> 00:38:19.600
Together and say let's start a restaurant.
00:38:19.600 --> 00:38:22.936
We all love food.
00:38:22.936 --> 00:38:24.338
Let's start with--great.
00:38:24.338 --> 00:38:25.672
They all decide, yes, we're gonna start a restaurant.
00:38:25.672 --> 00:38:27.608
And this guy wants to start an asian restaurant, and this guy
00:38:27.608 --> 00:38:30.611
Wants to start a steakhouse, and this guy wants to start an
00:38:30.611 --> 00:38:33.714
Italian restaurant.
00:38:33.714 --> 00:38:35.048
Well, they're all restaurants, but they're different flavors.
00:38:35.048 --> 00:38:38.652
Some guys react differently to certain churches.
00:38:38.652 --> 00:38:44.324
Churches have personalities.
00:38:44.324 --> 00:38:45.793
They have denominations, there's denominations.
00:38:45.793 --> 00:38:48.061
There's also personalities to the churches, and some guys will
00:38:48.061 --> 00:38:51.665
Thrive in a certain kind of church.
00:38:51.665 --> 00:38:53.901
Maybe they've got a better men's ministry.
00:38:53.901 --> 00:38:55.602
Maybe they've--maybe he relates better to the pastor.
00:38:55.602 --> 00:38:59.306
And sometimes you have to ask are we in the best possible
00:38:59.306 --> 00:39:02.643
Church for our marriage to continue to flourish?
00:39:02.643 --> 00:39:05.679
And sometimes the answer is no.
00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:07.548
We need to kind of look around and see if there's a church that
00:39:07.548 --> 00:39:10.651
Really ministers to both of us in a special way.
00:39:10.651 --> 00:39:14.087
So it's not a rap on any church.
00:39:14.087 --> 00:39:15.422
You're saying you know what?
00:39:15.422 --> 00:39:16.790
Italian restaurants are just as good as the asian restaurant,
00:39:16.790 --> 00:39:18.992
But they're a different flavor, and there's different flavors
00:39:18.992 --> 00:39:22.162
Of churches.
00:39:22.162 --> 00:39:23.797
So, i don't mean to stray theologically and get into a
00:39:23.797 --> 00:39:27.034
Weird denomination, but inside your denomination, you're gonna
00:39:27.034 --> 00:39:30.838
Find within driving distance, different kinds of churches.
00:39:30.838 --> 00:39:33.941
Try them out, see if a guy might, oh, gosh,
00:39:33.941 --> 00:39:37.010
I really relate to this place.
00:39:37.010 --> 00:39:38.512
And i met a couple of guys, we really hit it off,
00:39:38.512 --> 00:39:40.214
We're gonna go golfing.
00:39:40.214 --> 00:39:41.615
You never know. maybe that's at the root of it.
00:39:41.615 --> 00:39:44.418
Kirk: yeah, and leslie, what do you think about that?
00:39:44.418 --> 00:39:46.420
Couples, both believers but in different places with jesus.
00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:49.890
Leslie: same thing for the women, and you just wanna be
00:39:49.890 --> 00:39:51.925
Able to have either a women's ministry or something with the
00:39:51.925 --> 00:39:54.895
Kids that's important.
00:39:54.895 --> 00:39:56.930
You know, you both need to be in a place that you're able to
00:39:56.930 --> 00:39:59.933
Thrive, and i think it tends to be harder for men a lot of times
00:39:59.933 --> 00:40:03.971
Than it is for women, because there isn't often as much for
00:40:03.971 --> 00:40:07.007
Men as there is for women, but i think it's important.
00:40:07.007 --> 00:40:10.711
And if the man can find a mentor, and again, that's, you
00:40:10.711 --> 00:40:15.516
Know, not the easiest, but at a church you're more likely to
00:40:15.516 --> 00:40:18.452
Find that.
00:40:18.452 --> 00:40:19.786
Lee: a lot of churches do have small groups, and i remember as
00:40:19.786 --> 00:40:22.422
A new christian after i became a christian, i joined a small
00:40:22.422 --> 00:40:24.725
Group of guys, and we were five or six of us, and we get
00:40:24.725 --> 00:40:26.994
Together every saturday morning, pray together, share our lives
00:40:26.994 --> 00:40:30.163
Together, and that was like the mentorship that i needed at that
00:40:30.163 --> 00:40:34.134
Time to continue to grow, and that might be a pathway for
00:40:34.134 --> 00:40:38.005
Some guys.
00:40:38.005 --> 00:40:39.373
Kirk: when you're at different places like that, how do you
00:40:39.373 --> 00:40:42.876
Deal with that when you know, well, they're just slower,
00:40:42.876 --> 00:40:48.515
They're slower going?
00:40:48.515 --> 00:40:49.883
Lee: one thing that leslie did was bring spiritual practices
00:40:49.883 --> 00:40:53.387
Into the home.
00:40:53.387 --> 00:40:54.922
So let's pray together as a family.
00:40:54.922 --> 00:40:57.257
Let's invest in the children's spiritual growth, things we can
00:40:57.257 --> 00:41:01.662
Do together that really kind of brought the family together and
00:41:01.662 --> 00:41:06.099
Me together with her.
00:41:06.099 --> 00:41:07.868
Kirk: leslie, for a wife who is trying to encourage her husband
00:41:07.868 --> 00:41:11.939
To go to church, he's just not willing, what advice can you
00:41:11.939 --> 00:41:15.642
Give to her?
00:41:15.642 --> 00:41:16.977
Leslie: to be willing to say it's okay if you don't want to
00:41:16.977 --> 00:41:18.712
Go, because the natural reaction is to be mad and to get angry
00:41:18.712 --> 00:41:23.116
And storm off by yourself to church with the kids and let him
00:41:23.116 --> 00:41:26.119
Just be at home angry, and then you have to deal with the
00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:28.956
Aftermath when you get back, and the whole sunday's ruined.
00:41:28.956 --> 00:41:32.192
So, i mean, it's just being willing to let them move at
00:41:32.192 --> 00:41:35.429
Their own pace, to be an encourager.
00:41:35.429 --> 00:41:37.998
Kirk: not forcing it.
00:41:37.998 --> 00:41:39.333
Leslie: not forcing it, and to again move toward them, you
00:41:39.333 --> 00:41:42.736
Know, and love them and not hold it against them, but to
00:41:42.736 --> 00:41:46.039
Recognize that they're on a path, and it's a journey, and
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:49.676
It's not the same speed you went to.
00:41:49.676 --> 00:41:51.478
You know, it's their speed, and it's god is involved in that.
00:41:51.478 --> 00:41:54.982
So you just offer, you know, come with me.
00:41:54.982 --> 00:41:57.951
Lee: there's so many emotions.
00:41:57.951 --> 00:41:59.753
I remember one sunday morning early on, before i was a
00:41:59.753 --> 00:42:03.290
Believer, she said, "i'm gonna go to--"
00:42:03.290 --> 00:42:06.927
I'm sleeping off a hangover.
00:42:06.927 --> 00:42:08.295
I was drunk the night before, so i'm sleeping off a hangover on
00:42:08.295 --> 00:42:10.564
The couch, and she's getting dressed.
00:42:10.564 --> 00:42:12.933
I said, "what are you doing?"
00:42:12.933 --> 00:42:14.301
And she said, "i'm getting ready for church."
00:42:14.301 --> 00:42:15.802
And she said, "do you wanna come?"
00:42:15.802 --> 00:42:19.406
And i shocked her, i said, "yeah, i'm gonna come."
00:42:19.406 --> 00:42:22.643
And the reason i wanted to come is because i felt i was losing
00:42:22.643 --> 00:42:25.312
Her, and i'm gonna come because i'm afraid she's gonna sucked
00:42:25.312 --> 00:42:30.384
Into this subculture where i'm not welcome.
00:42:30.384 --> 00:42:32.552
So i thought--so i get dressed, and i'm mad, it's raining
00:42:32.552 --> 00:42:36.790
Outside, and we got wet on the way to the car, i'm
00:42:36.790 --> 00:42:40.427
Driving fast.
00:42:40.427 --> 00:42:41.795
Kirk: i'm just picturing all this in my mind.
00:42:41.795 --> 00:42:43.130
Lee: oh, it was a--and we're hydroplaning through puddles,
00:42:43.130 --> 00:42:45.766
And she starts to cry.
00:42:45.766 --> 00:42:48.201
And i said, "what's wrong?"
00:42:48.201 --> 00:42:49.536
She said, "look, if you don't want to go to church, it's okay.
00:42:49.536 --> 00:42:55.175
Just let me go in peace."
00:42:55.175 --> 00:42:57.644
And it broke my heart that i was that callous and that angry and
00:42:57.644 --> 00:43:04.284
That--lacked that level of understanding, and it broke my
00:43:04.284 --> 00:43:10.457
Heart even as a non-believer, and--but her attitude was,
00:43:10.457 --> 00:43:15.062
"look, if you don't wanna go, i understand, it's okay, but it
00:43:15.062 --> 00:43:18.632
Really helps me, i like to go, and i'll take the kids and
00:43:18.632 --> 00:43:22.335
So forth."
00:43:22.335 --> 00:43:23.704
But to have that kind of as opposed to, hey, if you don't
00:43:23.704 --> 00:43:26.406
Come with me, you're just a pagan, and you don't--yeah, you
00:43:26.406 --> 00:43:29.476
Know, you get what you deserve kind of thing.
00:43:29.476 --> 00:43:31.278
Kirk: yeah, yeah, wow.
00:43:31.278 --> 00:43:33.814
What stories can you share of a spouse coming to jesus after
00:43:33.814 --> 00:43:41.822
Years of a husband or a wife praying for them?
00:43:41.822 --> 00:43:46.693
Lee: how did you feel?
00:43:46.693 --> 00:43:48.061
Leslie: oh my goodness.
00:43:48.061 --> 00:43:49.396
Lee: i remember you burst into tears.
00:43:49.396 --> 00:43:50.764
I told her i just prayed to receive christ.
00:43:50.764 --> 00:43:52.699
Leslie: i couldn't believe it.
00:43:52.699 --> 00:43:54.034
It was just--because i thought it's gonna be a deathbed
00:43:54.034 --> 00:43:56.870
Conversion hopefully.
00:43:56.870 --> 00:43:58.271
Lee: probably your deathbed.
00:43:58.271 --> 00:43:59.706
Leslie: that was probably the best, yeah.
00:43:59.706 --> 00:44:01.074
Kirk: it's the best we're gonna get with him.
00:44:01.074 --> 00:44:02.409
Leslie: that was as good as it's gonna get.
00:44:02.409 --> 00:44:03.777
So to have it happen when it did, i was just beside myself.
00:44:03.777 --> 00:44:07.280
And he needed time, and he said, you know, he told me, and he
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.616
Said, "i just--i need to go for a drive by myself and
00:44:09.616 --> 00:44:12.052
Just process."
00:44:12.052 --> 00:44:13.386
Right away called linda, told linda about it, and she's--she
00:44:13.386 --> 00:44:17.357
Couldn't believe it, and we just prayed and thanked god, and it
00:44:17.357 --> 00:44:20.727
Was, yeah, it was a celebration.
00:44:20.727 --> 00:44:23.063
Lee: i remember she--when i told her, she cried and threw
00:44:23.063 --> 00:44:26.299
Her arms around my neck, and she said, "i almost gave up on you
00:44:26.299 --> 00:44:29.069
1,000 times."
00:44:29.069 --> 00:44:31.138
Leslie: i did, i did not believe.
00:44:31.138 --> 00:44:33.106
I mean, i just couldn't imagine, because he was so difficult.
00:44:33.106 --> 00:44:36.042
Lee: and it was kind of out of the blue.
00:44:36.042 --> 00:44:37.410
Leslie: and it was out of the blue, yeah.
00:44:37.410 --> 00:44:39.112
And so, i mean, the fact that it only took two years.
00:44:39.112 --> 00:44:42.949
It seemed like forever, but it was two years.
00:44:42.949 --> 00:44:45.952
And we know people were, like we said, it takes way longer.
00:44:45.952 --> 00:44:50.190
Kirk: i'd love for us to pause here just a moment and just
00:44:50.190 --> 00:44:53.326
Recognize the hope that this gives to us who have people
00:44:53.326 --> 00:44:57.798
In our lives who we just can't imagine
00:44:57.798 --> 00:45:00.634
They'll ever come to jesus.
00:45:00.634 --> 00:45:02.169
I can think of people like this right now, maybe you're watching
00:45:02.169 --> 00:45:04.304
Right now, and you have people, you're like i can't see how
00:45:04.304 --> 00:45:07.507
They'll ever come to jesus.
00:45:07.507 --> 00:45:08.842
They're so antagonistic toward the things of god, and some of
00:45:08.842 --> 00:45:11.978
It is understandable, but the way that they've been treated by
00:45:11.978 --> 00:45:14.915
Some religious folks, but my goodness, that would have to--
00:45:14.915 --> 00:45:18.618
That would take a miracle for this person to come to god,
00:45:18.618 --> 00:45:20.921
But you were that guy, you were that guy.
00:45:20.921 --> 00:45:23.523
Lee: i hope it does bring people hope, because, you know, i was
00:45:23.523 --> 00:45:27.194
Not just anti-god, i was running the other way from god.
00:45:27.194 --> 00:45:30.697
I was angry at the idea of god, because i thought it was a
00:45:30.697 --> 00:45:33.834
Make-believe and so forth.
00:45:33.834 --> 00:45:35.669
And you know, i hope it is an encouragement.
00:45:35.669 --> 00:45:37.337
I hope people say, you know what?
00:45:37.337 --> 00:45:38.672
We've been praying for uncle bob.
00:45:38.672 --> 00:45:40.040
We prayed for her dad.
00:45:40.040 --> 00:45:41.374
After i became a christian, first thing i did, went to her
00:45:41.374 --> 00:45:43.009
Dad, who was an atheist.
00:45:43.009 --> 00:45:44.344
And told him, al, i've become a christian.
00:45:44.344 --> 00:45:45.745
Al said, "hey, look, never talk to me about jesus again, but
00:45:45.745 --> 00:45:49.049
Good for you."
00:45:49.049 --> 00:45:50.450
I led him to the lord on his deathbed.
00:45:50.450 --> 00:45:52.419
Kirk: oh my goodness, that's great.
00:45:52.419 --> 00:45:53.987
Lee: so there's hope.
00:45:53.987 --> 00:45:55.322
I mean, we almost gave up on him after 20 years praying for him.
00:45:55.322 --> 00:45:58.458
Kirk: so, well, in your book, you've got this wonderful 30-day
00:45:58.458 --> 00:46:03.697
Prayer guide at the back of spiritual mismatch, for couples
00:46:03.697 --> 00:46:07.934
Who are really wrestling with these things.
00:46:07.934 --> 00:46:09.736
Tell us about the prayer guide.
00:46:09.736 --> 00:46:11.104
Lee: yeah, we wanted to give some structure, because, you
00:46:11.104 --> 00:46:13.006
Know, leslie's a new believer, she's how do i really pray about
00:46:13.006 --> 00:46:16.176
This after i've said god, help me?
00:46:16.176 --> 00:46:18.445
And so we thought let's give some structure, some different
00:46:18.445 --> 00:46:21.481
Areas that you can focus on each day about your growth, about
00:46:21.481 --> 00:46:26.620
Your husband or spouse's situation, about your marriage
00:46:26.620 --> 00:46:30.123
And so forth, and so we structured it in a way that it
00:46:30.123 --> 00:46:33.493
Can be repeated.
00:46:33.493 --> 00:46:34.828
So it's a 30-day prayer guide, but once you go through it, you
00:46:34.828 --> 00:46:36.730
Just go back around again, and we just hope it's an
00:46:36.730 --> 00:46:39.699
Encouragement that, you know what?
00:46:39.699 --> 00:46:41.701
The best thing we can do is to pray.
00:46:41.701 --> 00:46:44.137
Kirk: that's right.
00:46:44.137 --> 00:46:45.472
Lee: it's the best, it's not just anything we can do, it's
00:46:45.472 --> 00:46:47.073
The best thing we can do.
00:46:47.073 --> 00:46:48.408
Kirk: and does that prayer prayer guide include that
00:46:48.408 --> 00:46:50.243
Special verse in ezekiel 36 that we talked about several times?
00:46:50.243 --> 00:46:53.413
Lee: yeah.
00:46:53.413 --> 00:46:54.781
Kirk: good, oh, this--
00:46:54.781 --> 00:46:56.182
Lee: and we just celebrated our 53rd wedding anniversary.
00:46:56.182 --> 00:46:59.552
So god kept us together.
00:46:59.552 --> 00:47:01.521
Kirk: what a beautiful story, and how fortunate we are that
00:47:01.521 --> 00:47:04.557
God is the author of our stories.
00:47:04.557 --> 00:47:06.893
Lee: yeah, absolutely.
00:47:06.893 --> 00:47:08.261
Well, thank you so much for coming on "takeaways."
00:47:08.261 --> 00:47:10.664
All right, god bless you guys.
00:47:10.664 --> 00:47:12.265
After the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:47:12.265 --> 00:47:15.268
[music]
00:47:15.268 --> 00:47:20.018
[music]
00:47:20.018 --> 00:47:20.351
[music]
00:47:20.685 --> 00:47:24.288
Kirk: what happens when two people share a life but not the
00:47:27.024 --> 00:47:29.961
Same beliefs?
00:47:29.961 --> 00:47:31.329
My conversation with lee and leslie strobel today
00:47:31.329 --> 00:47:34.298
Was powerful.
00:47:34.298 --> 00:47:35.666
They opened up about the practical ways they navigated a
00:47:35.666 --> 00:47:39.303
Mismatched marriage.
00:47:39.303 --> 00:47:41.572
Their honesty, their wisdom, and lived experience brought so much
00:47:41.572 --> 00:47:45.376
Clarity and so much hope.
00:47:45.376 --> 00:47:47.345
Let's look at today's takeaways.
00:47:47.345 --> 00:47:50.247
Adjust and acknowledge.
00:47:50.247 --> 00:47:53.150
We opened today's conversation by agreeing on
00:47:53.150 --> 00:47:55.486
Something important.
00:47:55.486 --> 00:47:56.921
Many of us are either in or we know someone who's in a
00:47:56.921 --> 00:48:00.791
Mismatched relationships where beliefs differ or spiritual
00:48:00.791 --> 00:48:05.696
Maturity isn't the same, and it often leads to tension
00:48:05.696 --> 00:48:09.967
And frustration.
00:48:09.967 --> 00:48:11.702
For leslie, recognizing that she was growing spiritually while
00:48:11.702 --> 00:48:15.873
Lee wasn't meant that she had to adjust her expectations.
00:48:15.873 --> 00:48:20.745
She learned to depend on god to help her see clearly and
00:48:20.745 --> 00:48:25.349
Respond wisely.
00:48:25.349 --> 00:48:27.151
And just as important, she acknowledged how lee must have
00:48:27.151 --> 00:48:30.354
Been feeling too.
00:48:30.354 --> 00:48:31.722
Being in different places with our faith can create fear for
00:48:31.722 --> 00:48:36.327
Both individuals.
00:48:36.327 --> 00:48:37.661
Fear of losing respect, fear of drifting apart, fear of losing
00:48:37.661 --> 00:48:42.466
Connection with our children.
00:48:42.466 --> 00:48:44.402
And for some believers, there's a misplaced guilt of not being
00:48:44.402 --> 00:48:48.706
Able to lead the other one to the lord.
00:48:48.706 --> 00:48:52.143
I love what leslie said about this.
00:48:52.143 --> 00:48:54.311
We have to remember, it's not our job to drag someone across
00:48:54.311 --> 00:48:58.249
The finish line of faith.
00:48:58.249 --> 00:49:00.151
Our job is to be who god wants us to be and continue to pray.
00:49:00.151 --> 00:49:06.190
The scripture leslie prayed is one that we can pray as well for
00:49:06.190 --> 00:49:09.994
Our loved ones.
00:49:09.994 --> 00:49:11.362
Ezekiel 36:26, "i will give you a new heart and put a new spirit
00:49:11.362 --> 00:49:17.368
In you.
00:49:17.368 --> 00:49:18.702
I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a
00:49:18.702 --> 00:49:22.339
Heart of flesh."
00:49:22.339 --> 00:49:24.842
Find a mentor, be a mentor.
00:49:24.842 --> 00:49:27.878
Mentorship is valuable.
00:49:27.878 --> 00:49:29.680
We all need someone who says let's walk through
00:49:29.680 --> 00:49:33.017
This together.
00:49:33.017 --> 00:49:35.052
Many times we think it has to look a certain way.
00:49:35.052 --> 00:49:38.122
In my conversation we saw how god used a neighbor, a woman
00:49:38.122 --> 00:49:41.792
Named linda, to change the trajectory of lee and
00:49:41.792 --> 00:49:45.596
Leslie's marriage.
00:49:45.596 --> 00:49:47.031
And it all started with sitting around the kitchen table.
00:49:47.031 --> 00:49:50.634
So, what does having a mentor or being a mentor actually
00:49:50.634 --> 00:49:53.938
Look like?
00:49:53.938 --> 00:49:55.306
The best mentors listen, encourage, and point us back to
00:49:55.306 --> 00:50:00.344
Scripture and trust in god.
00:50:00.344 --> 00:50:03.547
They remind us that growing in our faith is a process, and
00:50:03.547 --> 00:50:07.418
Sometimes that looks like two steps forward and one step back.
00:50:07.418 --> 00:50:13.023
Say less.
00:50:13.023 --> 00:50:14.892
One of the most important takeaways from my conversation
00:50:14.892 --> 00:50:17.995
With the strobels was this, leslie didn't win lee over with
00:50:17.995 --> 00:50:22.600
Her words.
00:50:22.600 --> 00:50:24.168
As a new believer, she didn't have all the answers, and she
00:50:24.168 --> 00:50:27.872
Didn't need to.
00:50:27.872 --> 00:50:29.206
In moments where she could have dug in her heels, she chose
00:50:29.206 --> 00:50:33.410
Gentleness and forgiveness.
00:50:33.410 --> 00:50:36.113
Lee told us that it was those moments where he expected a
00:50:36.113 --> 00:50:39.283
Reaction and was met instead with her grace.
00:50:39.283 --> 00:50:43.821
That's what showed him god was doing something different in
00:50:43.821 --> 00:50:47.491
His wife.
00:50:47.491 --> 00:50:48.859
Scripture says in 1 peter chapter 3 that the way a wife
00:50:48.859 --> 00:50:52.496
Lives can draw her husband toward her and toward faith
00:50:52.496 --> 00:50:57.535
Without saying a word.
00:50:57.535 --> 00:51:00.004
Choosing to let our behavior speak louder than our words can
00:51:00.004 --> 00:51:03.674
Be difficult, especially when it comes to topics like church
00:51:03.674 --> 00:51:07.912
Attendance and tithing.
00:51:07.912 --> 00:51:10.681
Leslie shared two powerful reminders, one, god doesn't need
00:51:10.681 --> 00:51:14.852
You in church if it's going to hurt your marriage, and two, god
00:51:14.852 --> 00:51:18.756
Doesn't want your money, he wants your heart.
00:51:18.756 --> 00:51:23.227
Sometimes it's not our words that lead someone else to jesus
00:51:23.227 --> 00:51:26.931
But the witness of a transformed heart.
00:51:26.931 --> 00:51:30.701
When we let god change us, we build a bridge where there
00:51:30.701 --> 00:51:34.772
Easily could have been distance.
00:51:34.772 --> 00:51:38.642
Keep building.
00:51:38.642 --> 00:51:40.344
A big part of the mentorship leslie received was focused on
00:51:40.344 --> 00:51:44.181
Prioritizing her relationship with lee, even when they were
00:51:44.181 --> 00:51:48.185
Not aligned spiritually.
00:51:48.185 --> 00:51:50.854
Their encouragement for others in similar seasons is this,
00:51:50.854 --> 00:51:54.725
Build upon your marriage.
00:51:54.725 --> 00:51:57.061
Go back and do the things that made you fall in love in the
00:51:57.061 --> 00:52:01.665
First place.
00:52:01.665 --> 00:52:03.000
Do the things that you enjoyed together in the beginning.
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:06.403
And as your spouse becomes more open to god and even to
00:52:06.403 --> 00:52:10.708
Attending church, there's a helpful question that you can
00:52:10.708 --> 00:52:13.978
Ask together, are we in the best possible church for our marriage
00:52:13.978 --> 00:52:19.283
To flourish?
00:52:19.283 --> 00:52:20.918
Prioritizing our relationships with one another and with christ
00:52:20.918 --> 00:52:25.623
Works best when we keep building together.
00:52:25.623 --> 00:52:31.095
That's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:31.095 --> 00:52:33.163
Thank you for watching.
00:52:33.163 --> 00:52:34.531
And if you've enjoyed this show, don't forget to set your dvr so
00:52:34.531 --> 00:52:38.202
You never miss an episode.
00:52:38.202 --> 00:52:39.670
And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:39.670 --> 00:52:43.007
Searching for takeaways on the tbn+ app or by visiting the kirk
00:52:43.007 --> 00:52:48.345
Cameron on tbn youtube channel.
00:52:48.345 --> 00:52:51.148
We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
00:52:51.148 --> 00:52:54.184
[music]
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[music]
00:53:01.058 --> 00:53:01.058

Lee & Leslie Strobel: Navigating through Spiritual Differences in a Marriage | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

January 26, 2026 | 96:37

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