Lee Strobel: Investigating the Evidence of the Unseen World | Takeaways With Kirk Cameron

April 21, 2025 | 53:24

Kirk Cameron is joined by investigative journalist, Lee Strobel, to understand the mysteries of the spiritual realm and offer a thoughtful analysis that separates sensationalism from authentic spiritual truths.

#Faith #Author #Bible #Gospel #Religion #Evangelism #Culture #Truth #Supernatural #Miracles #Angels #TalkShow #Demons #NearDeath #LeeStrobel #KirkCameron

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Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Lee Strobel: Investigating the Evidence of the Unseen World | Takeaways With Kirk Cameron | April 21, 2025

Kirk cameron: do you believe we live in a world that is both
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Seen and unseen?
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We find angels and demons mentioned in the bible, and
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There are people who claim to have near-death experiences and
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Mystical dreams from god.
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But is there enough evidence to really believe there's a
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Supernatural world of activity all around us?
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We're going to find out today by talking with lee strobel, who
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Will share his results from investigating many of
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These claims.
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Let's get to it right now on "takeaways."
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Lee strobel: if miracles are happening today, and we have
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Good documentation that they are, it would make sense that
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They were happening in the 1st century too, so this gives
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Credibility to the gospels.
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♪♪♪
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Kirk: it's great to welcome back my guest, "new york times"
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Bestselling author and popular apologist lee strobel.
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His latest investigation is all about seeing the supernatural.
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Lee, welcome back.
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Lee: thanks so much, kirk. great to be with you.
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Kirk: i'm so excited about your book, "seeing the supernatural:
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Investigating angels, and demons, and near-death
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Experiences, other mysteries of the unseen world."
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I mean, this is all the rage today from multiverses to
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Sasquatch to blurry creatures to all kinds of paranormal,
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Exorcist activities.
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What made you want to write a book about this?
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Lee: that's why, and i'll explain that.
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What i mean by that is there is such interest in this.
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About eight out of ten americans believe that there is something
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Beyond the physical realm that we can see and touch.
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Kirk: eight out of ten?
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Lee: eight out of ten believe there's something.
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But as you say, there's all these weird paranormal kind of
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Beliefs, and i thought, why not create a bridge?
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A bridge from popular culture's fascination with the paranormal
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And the supernatural into the biblical perspective of this?
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I wanna bring people of faith in christ.
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I wanna see them meet jesus, but if i can create a pathway from
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This general curiosity about the supernatural, then we can take
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Them to a place that's biblically solid and
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Biblically based.
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Kirk: yes, i love it.
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See, you're more than just a reporter.
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You're a reformer.
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You're not just investigating and, like, spreading,
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Fear-inducing, outrage-producing content.
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You're actually saying, "let's take something that we see in
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The culture, people who are into weird stuff, and let's bring
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Them to something wonderful," which is the truth of
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The gospel.
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Lee: exactly.
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I mean, i'm a journalist, yes, i've trained in law, yes, but
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I'm an evangelist.
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I mean, i want to see people meet jesus.
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I want them to experience a life change i've had in my life, and
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You've had in your life, and so many millions of other people
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Have had.
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And the only way they do that is if they come to faith in christ.
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Kirk: so i remember as a kid, lee, watching "e.t."
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Right?
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"phone home," and--or "close encounters of the third kind,"
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And then other movies like "the exorcist."
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People are fascinated with ouija boards and dungeons and dragons
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And demonic activity and the occult, all of this stuff.
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What evidence do we have that any of that stuff is real?
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I mean, we live in a scientific age where, hey, if i can't taste
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It, touch it, see it, hear it, feel it--
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Lee: yeah, put it in a test tube.
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Kirk: if i can't put it in a, yeah, in a petri dish and test
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It, why should i even believe that it's real?
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Lee: yeah, exactly right.
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It is a skeptical world these days, but what i found is we do
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Have good reasons to believe that, for instance, what the
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Bible tells us about a supernatural realm is real.
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So in other words, i look for corroboration.
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I, you know, i wanna see things that aren't just a story that
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Somebody spins or tells or whatever.
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I wanna see documentation.
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I wanna see evidence.
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And so when i investigate miracles, for instance, i wanna
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See cases that are published in peer-reviewed secular
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Medical journals.
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When i deal with near-death experiences and deathbed
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Visions, i wanna see cases where it goes beyond a hallucination
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Or something from a subconscious mind, but there
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Is corroboration.
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A mystical dream, for instance.
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How do i know it's not just something conjured in
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Somebody's mind?
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Well, if there is corroboration, something from the outside that
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Confirms it, now i've got some confidence that indeed there is
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Something beyond what we can see and touch.
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Kirk: well, i'm fascinated by this because i've got some
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Personal experiences through family members and friends that
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Creep me out, and i don't think that they're
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Supernatural experiences.
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I think they're frauds.
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And so, i want to understand how to discern the difference
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Between god's actual activity, or potentially demonic activity,
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And what's just somebody pulling a fast magic trick on somebody.
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Lee: this is so important because--and i deal with that in
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The book.
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How do we discern that?
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And the reason is, there is some wacky stuff out there and there
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Is fraud and there is fakery and there is a placebo effect where
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People think they're gonna feel better and all of a sudden they
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Do feel better.
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It's not really a miracle.
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We've seen cases of people intentionally trying to deceive
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Other people.
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We've seen demonic cases where there's demonic activity that
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Tries to fool people.
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Kirk: masquerading as light. lee: masquerading.
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Kirk: we see that in the bible.
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You were commissioned, i believe, to do some
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Investigation and you determined how americans tend to experience
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The supernatural.
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What is that?
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Lee: yeah, i mean, what we tried to explore is, for instance, we
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Asked a cross section of american adults, "have you ever
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Had at least one experience in your life that you can only
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Explain as being a miracle of god?"
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And the answer was 38%, almost four out of ten american adults
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Say, "i've had at least one experience in my life i can only
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Explain as a miracle of god."
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Now, let's eliminate 99% of those.
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Let's say 99%, they think it's a miracle, but it was just an
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Incredible coincidence.
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So let's set that aside.
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If we did that, kirk, there would still be a million
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Miracles just in north america alone.
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So, you know, it's more common than we think.
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Kirk: i've heard people say, in my circles, you know, "i swear,
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And i don't like to swear, and i didn't hear an audible voice,
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But i know god said to me, 'you need to go do this.'"
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And someone will say they heard an audible voice, and then they
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Start talking back to the voice and they say, "well then i said
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This, and then he said, 'you need to go'--
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And i said, 'but lord.'"
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And i'm like, okay, wait.
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You know, you're starting to lose me here because, i mean,
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Are you hearing voices?
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Because i've never heard a voice.
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Lee: and--but then you'd have a case like evel knievel, the
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Great motorcycle daredevil rider who was a drunk, who was a
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Womanizer, who was a gambler, who's not looking for god, god
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Was irrelevant to him, and yet he's standing on the beach in
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His later years and he told me, he said, "lee, god spoke to me."
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He said, "it wasn't through my ears, but i heard it inside of
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Me, and the voice said, 'robert,'" this is his real
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Name, "'robert, i've saved you more times you'll ever know.
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Now you need to come to me through my son jesus.'"
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And he's shocked.
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"i don't even know who jesus is.
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It's just a swear word to me.
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I don't even know."
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So he called frank gifford, the old sportscaster, and said,
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"frank, you're the only christian i know.
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I had this experience. god spoke to me.
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What do i do? who is jesus?"
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And frank said, "get that book, 'the case for christ,'
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By lee strobel.
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That'll kind of explain it."
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So evel knievel gets my book, he read--anyway, he ends up having
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A dramatic encounter with god.
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He is not just born again.
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He is radically 180 degrees transformed.
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His values, his character, absolute huge turnaround.
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And when he shared his story at his baptism, the pastor ripped
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Up his sermon and said, "anybody who wants to come up and receive
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Christ and be baptized right now, come on up."
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Seven hundred people came up--in two services, seven
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Hundred people.
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He was on fire for the lord.
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And when he died a while later, you know what he had etched on
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His tombstone?
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"believe in jesus christ."
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So what do you do with that?
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Here was a guy who wasn't looking for god, god was
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Irrelevant to him, and he heard it inside of him in a way he'd
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Never felt anything before.
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What do you do with that?
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Kirk: wow.
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So, lee, you're an investigative reporter, you're looking
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For evidence.
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What would you say is the kind of evidence that's the most
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Convincing and compelling to you?
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Lee: you know, when i'm looking at something that is supposedly
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Miraculous, i wanna see medical documentation, i want to hear
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From multiple eyewitnesses who have no motive to deceive, they
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Have nothing to gain.
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I wanna hear from them.
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Kirk: there's not an agenda here where i get a kickback.
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Lee: exactly.
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I wanna see radical life change as a result of it.
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In other words, was it impactful enough that it transformed
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The person?
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And i wanna know, did it happen in an atmosphere of prayer?
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Is it something where there was prayer to god and as a
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Result--i'll give you an example.
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There was a woman who was blind for 12 years.
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She went to a school for the blind.
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She learned to read braille.
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She walked with a white cane.
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She married a baptist pastor.
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One night they're getting ready for bed, she's in bed, he comes
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Up to her, he's crying, and he puts his hand on her shoulder
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And begins to pray.
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He said, "lord, i know you can heal my wife.
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I know you can do it right now, and, lord, i pray you would do
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It tonight."
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And she opened her eyes to perfect vision.
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This was researched by four medical researchers.
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It was published in a peer-reviewed medical journal.
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It's a medical condition that is incurable, and her eyesight
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Remained intact, well for--it's been 47 years now that she's
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Had--her eyesight's been fine.
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So what do you do with that?
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You know, here's something that happened in an instant after
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Prayer, radical transformation, research by medical researchers
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And so forth.
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And so in my book i always footnote the actual medical
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Journal articles so that people can look at that if they want to
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Read it themselves.
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Kirk: is that story in this book?
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Lee: it is, yes.
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Kirk: wow, this is incredible.
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Lee, you're convincing me.
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You're getting to me.
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You're getting under my skin.
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What does the bible say about supernatural encounters?
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Lee: well, certainly we see them in the bible.
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We see, for instance, 200 cases of supernatural dreams in the
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Old testament and the new testament where people have
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Dreams that point them toward truth about god that they
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Didn't know.
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We see 300 references to angels.
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We see jesus as an exorcist.
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Even skeptics--
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Kirk: casting out demons and healing the sick.
00:10:14.904 --> 00:10:17.139
Lee: and so if you believe jesus is who he claimed to be, the
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Unique son of god, he proved it by returning from the dead, then
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You kind of got to believe that miracles happen in the
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1st century, and you got to believe that he believed in
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Demons and he did exorcisms.
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Kirk: that's right, because he threw a bunch of them
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Into a herd of pigs.
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Lee: exactly, and so, you know, it would make sense that there
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Are also demon possessions today and miracles today.
00:10:36.459 --> 00:10:40.029
And here's the thing.
00:10:40.029 --> 00:10:41.363
When i was an atheist, i would read sometimes, and people would
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Challenge me to read the gospels.
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And i'd start reading the gospel, "you can't believe this.
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It's got a miracle in it.
00:10:48.571 --> 00:10:49.939
Miracles are impossible.
00:10:49.939 --> 00:10:51.273
They violate the laws of nature, so it's impossible."
00:10:51.273 --> 00:10:53.442
And so i would discount it as being fantasy.
00:10:53.442 --> 00:10:55.644
Well, if miracles are happening today, and we have good
00:10:55.644 --> 00:10:59.014
Documentation that they are, it would make sense if they were
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Happening in the 1st century too.
00:11:02.251 --> 00:11:03.886
So this gives credibility to the gospels and gives me another
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Reason to believe that they are actual historical accounts of
00:11:07.223 --> 00:11:09.692
The life teachings, miracles, death, and resurrection
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Of jesus.
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Kirk: yeah, yeah.
00:11:13.429 --> 00:11:14.797
There are miracles taking place today that are not quite as
00:11:14.797 --> 00:11:17.633
Obvious to people as the ones you just talked about, like a
00:11:17.633 --> 00:11:19.769
Blind lady seeing, and that is just that life exists, just
00:11:19.769 --> 00:11:24.440
That alone.
00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:25.775
If we were to go back and take an evolutionary worldview, and
00:11:25.775 --> 00:11:30.112
By that i don't--i'm not talking about adaptation within species,
00:11:30.112 --> 00:11:33.983
But everything came out of nothing, how do you explain life
00:11:33.983 --> 00:11:38.320
Coming from non-life?
00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:39.722
We have rules of like, laws of biogenesis.
00:11:39.722 --> 00:11:42.558
We have other sorts of laws where you can't get life
00:11:42.558 --> 00:11:45.928
From non-life.
00:11:45.928 --> 00:11:47.296
And in the beginning, nothing explodes by no one and
00:11:47.296 --> 00:11:50.099
Everything shows up, including investigative journalists who
00:11:50.099 --> 00:11:53.235
Can write books like, "seeing the supernatural."
00:11:53.235 --> 00:11:55.671
Like, that doesn't make sense.
00:11:55.671 --> 00:11:57.006
That's a miracle.
00:11:57.006 --> 00:11:58.374
Lee: exactly, skeptics cannot explain three things.
00:11:58.374 --> 00:12:00.209
They cannot explain the origin of the universe, they cannot
00:12:00.209 --> 00:12:03.045
Explain the origin of life, and they cannot explain the origin
00:12:03.045 --> 00:12:05.781
Of human consciousness.
00:12:05.781 --> 00:12:07.683
They just have no explanation for any of that.
00:12:07.683 --> 00:12:09.952
Kirk: so, atheists believe in miracles.
00:12:09.952 --> 00:12:12.087
Lee: in a sense.
00:12:12.087 --> 00:12:13.455
Kirk: they have to. they do.
00:12:13.455 --> 00:12:14.790
Lee: they say everything came out of nothing.
00:12:14.790 --> 00:12:16.125
Well, what is that? that's a miracle.
00:12:16.125 --> 00:12:17.459
Kirk: that's a miracle, right, which is an even crazier--
00:12:17.459 --> 00:12:20.196
Lee: they just think there's just nothing behind it.
00:12:20.196 --> 00:12:22.064
Kirk: far-fetched miracle than what we're talking about because
00:12:22.064 --> 00:12:23.566
Ours makes logical sense, given that our starting point
00:12:23.566 --> 00:12:27.136
Is an all-powerful, loving, all-knowing creator.
00:12:27.136 --> 00:12:30.206
Lee: exactly.
00:12:30.206 --> 00:12:31.540
If there is an unembodied, disembodied, spiritual mind,
00:12:31.540 --> 00:12:35.911
God, immaterial, spirit, and so forth--
00:12:35.911 --> 00:12:38.314
Kirk: outside the universe.
00:12:38.314 --> 00:12:39.782
Lee: outside the universe, it was intelligent, and he's made
00:12:39.782 --> 00:12:41.550
Us in his image, then that would make sense that we would have
00:12:41.550 --> 00:12:44.687
Consciousness, that our minds would be able to process things
00:12:44.687 --> 00:12:49.425
In a similar way.
00:12:49.425 --> 00:12:50.793
Kirk: that's right.
00:12:50.793 --> 00:12:52.127
Oh my goodness, this is so great.
00:12:52.127 --> 00:12:53.495
We've got to keep going, we have so much more to talk about.
00:12:53.495 --> 00:12:56.065
And we're gonna talk more with lee about examining the evidence
00:12:56.065 --> 00:12:58.968
Of near-death experiences and miracles right after the break.
00:12:58.968 --> 00:13:02.872
♪♪♪
00:13:02.938 --> 00:13:07.343
♪♪♪
00:13:08.019 --> 00:13:15.327
Kirk: welcome back.
00:13:15.327 --> 00:13:16.661
We are learning more about seeing the unseen with my guest
00:13:16.661 --> 00:13:19.664
Lee strobel.
00:13:19.664 --> 00:13:21.032
All right, lee, let's get into some more topics like deathbed
00:13:21.032 --> 00:13:24.669
Experiences and near-death experiences.
00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:27.372
You say there's a difference.
00:13:27.372 --> 00:13:29.341
What is it?
00:13:29.341 --> 00:13:30.675
Lee: a near-death experience is when someone is clinically dead.
00:13:30.675 --> 00:13:34.045
They have no brain waves, no respiration, no heartbeat, and
00:13:34.045 --> 00:13:38.583
So technically they're dead, but they're gonna come back.
00:13:38.583 --> 00:13:41.987
They are gonna be revived.
00:13:41.987 --> 00:13:43.321
They are gonna--they're--and so, they can come back and tell you
00:13:43.321 --> 00:13:46.691
About what they experienced when they were clinically dead.
00:13:46.691 --> 00:13:49.127
Kirk: that's a near-death experience.
00:13:49.127 --> 00:13:51.062
What's a deathbed experience?
00:13:51.062 --> 00:13:52.430
Lee: a deathbed experience is when a person is literally about
00:13:52.430 --> 00:13:55.600
To die and they get a glimpse of what's to come, but they're
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:59.904
Gonna permanently die.
00:13:59.904 --> 00:14:01.273
They're not coming back.
00:14:01.273 --> 00:14:02.607
Kirk: oh, they're not coming back.
00:14:02.607 --> 00:14:03.975
Lee: no, they're gonna die.
00:14:03.975 --> 00:14:05.310
Kirk: how do you ever hear their story if they die?
00:14:05.310 --> 00:14:06.778
Lee: it's right at the end of their life.
00:14:06.778 --> 00:14:08.113
So, i'll give you an example.
00:14:08.113 --> 00:14:09.447
What we see in scripture in acts, we see stephen who's gonna
00:14:09.447 --> 00:14:11.549
Be stoned to death, and he looks up and he sees the heavens
00:14:11.549 --> 00:14:14.753
Opening up and he sees the father and the son together.
00:14:14.753 --> 00:14:18.690
So, there's--
00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:20.025
Kirk: and then he dies because he got stoned.
00:14:20.025 --> 00:14:21.493
Lee: he gets stoned to death.
00:14:21.493 --> 00:14:22.827
So, there is a biblical precedent.
00:14:22.827 --> 00:14:24.195
Now, i'll give you an example of billy graham's former pulpit
00:14:24.195 --> 00:14:26.631
Partner charles templeton, who lost his faith, became a skeptic
00:14:26.631 --> 00:14:30.835
And atheist, agnostic.
00:14:30.835 --> 00:14:32.704
Biggest skeptic in canada, wrote an ugly book called, "farewell
00:14:32.704 --> 00:14:35.307
To god: my reasons for rejecting the christian faith."
00:14:35.307 --> 00:14:37.942
He and i became friends because i interviewed him for my book,
00:14:37.942 --> 00:14:40.211
"the case for faith," and he did come back to faith
00:14:40.211 --> 00:14:44.015
Before he died.
00:14:44.015 --> 00:14:45.350
Kirk: really?
00:14:45.350 --> 00:14:46.685
Lee: yes, he did.
00:14:46.685 --> 00:14:48.019
And on his deathbed, he called out to his wife madeleine.
00:14:48.019 --> 00:14:50.655
"madeleine, can you see them? can you hear them?"
00:14:50.655 --> 00:14:52.824
"what are you talking about?"
00:14:52.824 --> 00:14:54.259
"they're here.
00:14:54.259 --> 00:14:55.593
They're in the--you can't see the angels?
00:14:55.593 --> 00:14:57.062
They're coming for me. look, they're so beautiful.
00:14:57.062 --> 00:14:58.496
They're so--look at their eyes.
00:14:58.496 --> 00:15:00.065
Oh my goodness, they're coming for me.
00:15:00.065 --> 00:15:01.499
I'm going to heaven. i'm gonna be with god."
00:15:01.499 --> 00:15:03.735
I mean, he had this experience right before he died.
00:15:03.735 --> 00:15:05.870
And here's what's interesting. if you go to luke--
00:15:05.870 --> 00:15:07.772
Kirk: was that what brought him back to faith, or had he come
00:15:07.772 --> 00:15:09.574
Back to faith before that?
00:15:09.574 --> 00:15:10.909
Lee: no, he had come back to faith before that.
00:15:10.909 --> 00:15:12.344
Kirk: okay.
00:15:12.344 --> 00:15:13.745
Lee: now what's interesting, if--in luke chapter 16 where
00:15:13.745 --> 00:15:16.481
Jesus tells a story about the rich man and the beggar who both
00:15:16.481 --> 00:15:18.750
Died, the rich man goes to a place of torment, the beggar
00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:22.854
Goes to a place of bliss.
00:15:22.854 --> 00:15:24.556
But it's interesting, i think it's verse 22, where jesus says,
00:15:24.556 --> 00:15:27.926
"angels carried the beggar to that place of bliss."
00:15:27.926 --> 00:15:32.163
And often, like charles templeton, people see angels
00:15:32.163 --> 00:15:35.633
Coming for them.
00:15:35.633 --> 00:15:37.001
And here's what's fascinating.
00:15:37.001 --> 00:15:38.336
Children who are dying often see angels coming for them.
00:15:38.336 --> 00:15:42.006
But they're not angels that you would think the children would
00:15:42.006 --> 00:15:44.542
Imagine if this were just in their imagination.
00:15:44.542 --> 00:15:47.545
So i'll give you an example.
00:15:47.545 --> 00:15:50.248
Most pictures you see for kids of angels are caricatures
00:15:50.248 --> 00:15:53.818
Or cartoons.
00:15:53.818 --> 00:15:55.153
Kirk: yeah, it looks like precious moments angels.
00:15:55.153 --> 00:15:56.521
Lee: yes, they have big wings.
00:15:56.521 --> 00:15:57.856
They all have wings.
00:15:57.856 --> 00:15:59.224
The bible doesn't say that all angels have wings, but drawings
00:15:59.224 --> 00:16:01.393
The kids would be familiar with all have wings.
00:16:01.393 --> 00:16:04.462
We have a case in a doctoral dissertation of a little girl
00:16:04.462 --> 00:16:07.198
Who was dying, and she says to her mommy, "mommy, mommy, can
00:16:07.198 --> 00:16:09.734
You see them?
00:16:09.734 --> 00:16:11.069
The angels, they're here for me.
00:16:11.069 --> 00:16:12.437
Oh, they're so beautiful.
00:16:12.437 --> 00:16:13.772
Listen to their music.
00:16:13.772 --> 00:16:15.140
Oh, my goodness."
00:16:15.140 --> 00:16:16.474
And the mother didn't want to disappoint her daughter,
00:16:16.474 --> 00:16:17.842
So she lied and she said, "oh yeah, i see them.
00:16:17.842 --> 00:16:19.744
Look at their big wings."
00:16:19.744 --> 00:16:21.713
And the little girl said, "oh, mommy, you don't have to lie.
00:16:21.713 --> 00:16:24.849
They don't have wings."
00:16:24.849 --> 00:16:26.317
And she went on to described them in vivid detail.
00:16:26.317 --> 00:16:28.219
Kirk: the little girl says this to her mother.
00:16:28.219 --> 00:16:29.587
Lee: yes, and then she died.
00:16:29.587 --> 00:16:31.656
And this is very common, that children who are dying will see
00:16:31.656 --> 00:16:34.426
Angels coming for them, but they don't have the wings you would
00:16:34.426 --> 00:16:37.095
Think they would have if they were just imagining
00:16:37.095 --> 00:16:39.731
This kind of thing, yeah.
00:16:39.731 --> 00:16:41.099
Kirk: wow.
00:16:41.099 --> 00:16:42.534
Lee: and the common--these deathbed visions are so common,
00:16:42.534 --> 00:16:45.069
And many times we see corroboration.
00:16:45.069 --> 00:16:47.405
Here's a corroboration, i'll give you an example.
00:16:47.405 --> 00:16:50.175
There's a woman named dora, she's dying, and it was
00:16:50.175 --> 00:16:53.411
In england.
00:16:53.411 --> 00:16:54.746
And she, on her deathbed, she sees heaven is opening up and
00:16:54.746 --> 00:16:59.117
She sees angelic beings and she sees her father, who had died
00:16:59.117 --> 00:17:02.454
Several years earlier.
00:17:02.454 --> 00:17:03.822
And her father is kind of welcoming her to this
00:17:03.822 --> 00:17:05.757
Next realm.
00:17:05.757 --> 00:17:07.091
And then she gets very confused and she says, "wait a minute,
00:17:07.091 --> 00:17:09.494
Vita is with them.
00:17:09.494 --> 00:17:10.862
What?
00:17:10.862 --> 00:17:12.464
Why is vita with my father?
00:17:12.464 --> 00:17:14.332
That--," and she's puzzled by this, and then she died.
00:17:14.332 --> 00:17:17.836
Well, the reason she was puzzled is vita was her sister.
00:17:17.836 --> 00:17:21.005
What she didn't know was her sister had died three
00:17:21.005 --> 00:17:23.842
Weeks earlier.
00:17:23.842 --> 00:17:25.210
Nobody had told her because she was ill.
00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:26.611
They didn't want to push her over and kill her with the news
00:17:26.611 --> 00:17:29.013
That her sister had died.
00:17:29.013 --> 00:17:30.348
So, people withheld the news that her sister had died.
00:17:30.348 --> 00:17:32.650
And yet, she saw her sister in this realm beyond, not knowing
00:17:32.650 --> 00:17:37.055
That she had died.
00:17:37.055 --> 00:17:38.423
That is common.
00:17:38.423 --> 00:17:39.757
Now, here's a funny thing.
00:17:39.757 --> 00:17:41.092
I told my wife this. i'm doing all this research.
00:17:41.092 --> 00:17:42.460
You know, i'm like you, you know, you tell your wife,
00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:43.928
"oh, that's what i learned today," you know.
00:17:43.928 --> 00:17:46.498
So i told her about this.
00:17:46.498 --> 00:17:47.866
She said, "lee, don't you remember what happened with my
00:17:47.866 --> 00:17:49.200
Father, al?"
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:50.568
I'd completely forgotten.
00:17:50.568 --> 00:17:51.903
Al died back in early 2000s, and he was in hospice, he was on his
00:17:51.903 --> 00:17:56.508
Deathbed, and my wife, leslie, went to visit him.
00:17:56.508 --> 00:17:59.010
She comes in, he's all agitated, and she said, "what's wrong?"
00:17:59.010 --> 00:18:02.413
She--he said, "where's marge?"
00:18:02.413 --> 00:18:04.215
"what do you mean?"
00:18:04.215 --> 00:18:05.583
"marge was just here.
00:18:05.583 --> 00:18:06.918
I was just talking to marge and now she's not here.
00:18:06.918 --> 00:18:08.386
Where did she go?
00:18:08.386 --> 00:18:09.721
I was having a great conversation with marge."
00:18:09.721 --> 00:18:11.189
And then he died.
00:18:11.189 --> 00:18:12.624
Well, marge was his sister, and his sister had died three
00:18:12.624 --> 00:18:16.127
Days earlier.
00:18:16.127 --> 00:18:17.495
Nobody had told al because, again, he was dying.
00:18:17.495 --> 00:18:19.864
They didn't want to push him over with the shock of the news
00:18:19.864 --> 00:18:22.233
That his sister had died, so nobody told him.
00:18:22.233 --> 00:18:24.502
And yet, he was having a conversation with her in his
00:18:24.502 --> 00:18:27.372
Room before he died.
00:18:27.372 --> 00:18:29.807
So these deathbed visions are really--and so that's, to me,
00:18:29.807 --> 00:18:32.911
That's external corroboration.
00:18:32.911 --> 00:18:35.079
Kirk: now what's the difference--not the difference,
00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.682
But talk to me about near-death experiences and what that
00:18:37.682 --> 00:18:41.719
Teaches us about the boundary between the here and the there.
00:18:41.719 --> 00:18:46.024
Lee: yes, great question.
00:18:46.024 --> 00:18:47.358
In a near-death experience, as i say, people are clinically dead,
00:18:47.358 --> 00:18:49.427
And yet they have--their consciousness continues to live
00:18:49.427 --> 00:18:51.796
On, just as the bible says, our--when we die, our spirit,
00:18:51.796 --> 00:18:54.899
Our soul separates from our body.
00:18:54.899 --> 00:18:56.935
And so, people see things and hear things that they couldn't
00:18:56.935 --> 00:19:02.106
Otherwise see or hear because their spirit had separated from
00:19:02.106 --> 00:19:05.276
Their now dead body, until they're revived.
00:19:05.276 --> 00:19:08.246
And so i'll give you an example.
00:19:08.246 --> 00:19:09.614
There's a woman who was dying of an abortion in england and--she
00:19:09.614 --> 00:19:13.151
Was bleeding to death and they couldn't stop the bleeding.
00:19:13.151 --> 00:19:15.453
And they brought her to the emergency room, and she's
00:19:15.453 --> 00:19:18.590
Clinically dead, she dies.
00:19:18.590 --> 00:19:20.725
But she said later, "i was conscious the whole time."
00:19:20.725 --> 00:19:23.061
And she said, "my spirit separated from my body and i'm
00:19:23.061 --> 00:19:25.830
Watching the resuscitation efforts from the ceiling of the
00:19:25.830 --> 00:19:28.800
Hospital room as they're trying to revive me, revive my body."
00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:32.370
And ultimately they did, and her spirit returned to her body.
00:19:32.370 --> 00:19:35.840
And she said, "by the way, you see the ceiling fan here in the
00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:39.010
Emergency room?
00:19:39.010 --> 00:19:40.712
On one of the upper--on the upper part of one of the blades
00:19:40.712 --> 00:19:43.715
Is a red sticker."
00:19:43.715 --> 00:19:45.583
You couldn't see it from the room because it was on the upper
00:19:45.583 --> 00:19:48.152
Part of a red blade of a ceiling.
00:19:48.152 --> 00:19:50.188
But she saw it because of her perspective, her spirit looking
00:19:50.188 --> 00:19:53.324
Down, she saw the red sticker.
00:19:53.324 --> 00:19:56.227
So they got a ladder and they went up and they looked on top
00:19:56.227 --> 00:19:58.796
Of the ceiling--of the blade and, sure enough, there's a red
00:19:58.796 --> 00:20:01.866
Sticker just as she said.
00:20:01.866 --> 00:20:03.234
Kirk: this is so cool.
00:20:03.234 --> 00:20:04.569
I'm so thankful we get to talk about this.
00:20:04.569 --> 00:20:07.305
What advice would you give to a skeptic when they encounter
00:20:07.305 --> 00:20:10.842
Stories that they can't really explain scientifically?
00:20:10.842 --> 00:20:15.747
Lee: that's a great question, too, and the reason is because
00:20:15.747 --> 00:20:18.249
There is deception, there is a demonic world.
00:20:18.249 --> 00:20:21.319
The bible says that satan can masquerade as an angel of light,
00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:25.890
And so we have to be very careful.
00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:27.792
The bible tells us to stay away from psychics.
00:20:27.792 --> 00:20:31.029
And in my book i talk about psychics and the tricks that
00:20:31.029 --> 00:20:33.364
They use to try to convince people that they have a peek
00:20:33.364 --> 00:20:35.700
Into the supernatural realm when they don't.
00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:37.468
Kirk: sure, we got--there's popular television shows
00:20:37.468 --> 00:20:39.337
About that.
00:20:39.337 --> 00:20:40.705
Lee: exactly, and it's all based on tricks that they perform.
00:20:40.705 --> 00:20:43.608
You know, we--you have things about people seeing ghosts.
00:20:43.608 --> 00:20:45.810
Well, ghosts are not biblical, really, because a
00:20:45.810 --> 00:20:48.112
Ghost--technical definition of a ghost is someone who dies, but
00:20:48.112 --> 00:20:52.884
Their spirit refuses to go into the next realm.
00:20:52.884 --> 00:20:55.353
Well, we don't see that in scripture, and so most likely
00:20:55.353 --> 00:20:58.056
These are demonic imitations.
00:20:58.056 --> 00:21:00.324
So, i would say everything needs to be weighed against scripture.
00:21:00.324 --> 00:21:04.762
We have to compare it to scripture, otherwise we're free
00:21:04.762 --> 00:21:07.432
Floating into some wacky stuff that could be deceptive and it
00:21:07.432 --> 00:21:10.635
Could be demonic.
00:21:10.635 --> 00:21:11.969
Kirk: okay, so is that essentially the litmus test for
00:21:11.969 --> 00:21:15.373
When we see something?
00:21:15.373 --> 00:21:16.741
Like, i have some people who are close to me who were--well, they
00:21:16.741 --> 00:21:22.847
Had an experience where they believed that someone knew
00:21:22.847 --> 00:21:26.184
Something about them that they never told them, and then they
00:21:26.184 --> 00:21:32.857
Predicted something that would have been biologically near
00:21:32.857 --> 00:21:36.060
Impossible, and then blew on them, pfoot, like that, and they
00:21:36.060 --> 00:21:43.134
Fell over and were laying on the floor, you know, prostrate
00:21:43.134 --> 00:21:46.304
Down there.
00:21:46.304 --> 00:21:47.638
And then--and this happened a couple of times, and these
00:21:47.638 --> 00:21:50.875
Aren't the kind of people that i would imagine would have--go
00:21:50.875 --> 00:21:55.513
Along willingly with something that was phony.
00:21:55.513 --> 00:21:58.382
But everything within me says, you know, i smell a rat.
00:21:58.382 --> 00:22:04.021
How would a person know if this is fake or if this is real?
00:22:04.021 --> 00:22:09.627
Lee: yeah, the first thing i would do is i would search
00:22:09.627 --> 00:22:11.863
Scripture and say, "is there anything about this
00:22:11.863 --> 00:22:13.965
That's scriptural?"
00:22:13.965 --> 00:22:15.299
For instance, when i said that stephen had the pre-death vision
00:22:15.299 --> 00:22:18.736
Of heaven, that gives credibility if people have such
00:22:18.736 --> 00:22:22.106
A vision today.
00:22:22.106 --> 00:22:24.142
That's number one.
00:22:24.142 --> 00:22:25.476
Number two, who's doing this?
00:22:25.476 --> 00:22:27.178
Who is instigating this?
00:22:27.178 --> 00:22:28.579
Is this someone who's profiting from it?
00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:31.282
Is this someone who's trying to make a buck off of this
00:22:31.282 --> 00:22:34.719
Experience or whatever?
00:22:34.719 --> 00:22:36.087
That would raise red flags to me.
00:22:36.087 --> 00:22:37.989
Is it something within the ability of the demonic?
00:22:37.989 --> 00:22:42.193
That would be another test as well.
00:22:42.193 --> 00:22:44.929
Kirk: wow, so much to talk about.
00:22:44.929 --> 00:22:46.264
This is fascinating.
00:22:46.264 --> 00:22:47.632
I wanna talk about jesus dreams in the muslim world and if
00:22:47.632 --> 00:22:51.169
You've personally experienced any miracles.
00:22:51.169 --> 00:22:54.438
When we come back, we'll talk to lee about his findings about
00:22:54.438 --> 00:22:58.075
Spiritual beings, including angels and demons.
00:22:58.075 --> 00:23:01.646
Do they really exist?
00:23:01.646 --> 00:23:03.047
Stay with us.
00:23:03.047 --> 00:23:04.549
♪♪♪
00:23:04.549 --> 00:23:08.686
♪♪♪
00:23:09.365 --> 00:23:16.839
Kirk: we're back with lee strobel.
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:18.474
All right, lee, let's talk about angels and demons.
00:23:18.474 --> 00:23:22.278
Now, some people believe that they have guardian
00:23:22.278 --> 00:23:24.947
Angels, right?
00:23:24.947 --> 00:23:26.315
Like--and they believe that there's also demons, you know,
00:23:26.315 --> 00:23:31.954
Under this chair.
00:23:31.954 --> 00:23:33.289
They believe that the spiritual battle is the cause of their
00:23:33.289 --> 00:23:36.825
Marital problems or their financial problems.
00:23:36.825 --> 00:23:39.695
What do you say to the people who think there's a devil behind
00:23:39.695 --> 00:23:42.565
Every bush or to the people that ignore the spiritual realm and
00:23:42.565 --> 00:23:47.670
Those beings entirely?
00:23:47.670 --> 00:23:49.004
Lee: well, you've hit on the exact two polar opposites there,
00:23:49.004 --> 00:23:51.507
People who are obsessed with it and people who ignore it, and i
00:23:51.507 --> 00:23:54.009
Think their answer's in the middle.
00:23:54.009 --> 00:23:55.444
What does the bible say about it, and can we trust it?
00:23:55.444 --> 00:23:58.280
And so angels, for instance, there are a couple hundred
00:23:58.280 --> 00:24:00.583
Verses about angels in the bible.
00:24:00.583 --> 00:24:02.551
And do i believe that angels exist?
00:24:02.551 --> 00:24:04.353
Yeah.
00:24:04.353 --> 00:24:05.688
Do we have guardian angels?
00:24:05.688 --> 00:24:07.056
Interesting question.
00:24:07.056 --> 00:24:08.390
There are two passages, one in which jesus in the gospel of
00:24:08.390 --> 00:24:10.893
Matthew says, "do not criticize or demean these little children
00:24:10.893 --> 00:24:16.332
Because their angels see the face of god every day."
00:24:16.332 --> 00:24:20.803
So who are their angels?
00:24:20.803 --> 00:24:22.271
Do they have a guardian angel?
00:24:22.271 --> 00:24:23.939
That's the suggestion.
00:24:23.939 --> 00:24:25.407
And then in the book of acts, we see peter escaping from prison
00:24:25.407 --> 00:24:29.111
With the help of the angelic.
00:24:29.111 --> 00:24:30.846
And he goes to the home of some christians and he knocks on
00:24:30.846 --> 00:24:34.250
The door.
00:24:34.250 --> 00:24:35.584
And the servant says, "who's there?"
00:24:35.584 --> 00:24:38.053
And he says, "it's peter."
00:24:38.053 --> 00:24:39.388
And she says, "hey, peter's here."
00:24:39.388 --> 00:24:40.756
And everybody else says, "pfft, can't be peter.
00:24:40.756 --> 00:24:42.758
He's in prison.
00:24:42.758 --> 00:24:44.126
It must be his angel."
00:24:44.126 --> 00:24:46.328
So those are two suggestive verses that maybe we have an
00:24:46.328 --> 00:24:49.765
Angel, a guardian angel, who is assigned to us.
00:24:49.765 --> 00:24:52.935
Other scholars disagree and say that's not sufficient to
00:24:52.935 --> 00:24:56.605
Establish that.
00:24:56.605 --> 00:24:58.007
Certainly, there are plenty of angels to protect us.
00:24:58.007 --> 00:25:01.076
In revelation we see a scene where jesus, the
00:25:01.076 --> 00:25:03.946
Post-resurrected jesus, is on his throne being worshiped.
00:25:03.946 --> 00:25:07.116
And if you run the numbers, it's by 100 million angels he's
00:25:07.116 --> 00:25:11.854
Being worshiped.
00:25:11.854 --> 00:25:13.188
So there's plenty of angels, it could happen, but we don't know
00:25:13.188 --> 00:25:15.457
For sure do we have a guardian angel.
00:25:15.457 --> 00:25:17.159
By the way, martin luther, in his small catechism, has a
00:25:17.159 --> 00:25:20.663
Prayer that he would pray in the evening, saying, "god," in a
00:25:20.663 --> 00:25:24.466
Sense, "send your holy angels to protect me from the evil one."
00:25:24.466 --> 00:25:29.271
So, we can--we should not pray to angels, but we can pray to
00:25:29.271 --> 00:25:35.511
God for the protection of angels.
00:25:35.511 --> 00:25:37.079
I believe we can do that.
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:38.414
In fact, in the garden of gethsemane where jesus is being
00:25:38.414 --> 00:25:41.016
Arrested, he said, "don't you think if i could ask my father
00:25:41.016 --> 00:25:44.887
Right now and he would send 12 legions of angels to
00:25:44.887 --> 00:25:49.024
Protect me?"
00:25:49.024 --> 00:25:50.359
Well, that's 60,000 angels that he would have sent.
00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:53.128
Yeah, so, in a sense, jesus is saying, "my father would send
00:25:53.128 --> 00:25:59.501
Angels to protect me if i asked him to do it."
00:25:59.501 --> 00:26:02.371
So we--i don't think we should pray to angels, but certainly,
00:26:02.371 --> 00:26:05.874
It's okay to pray, i think, for god to protect us through
00:26:05.874 --> 00:26:08.744
His angels.
00:26:08.744 --> 00:26:10.646
And we see in 2 kings chapter 6, where the servant of elisha
00:26:10.646 --> 00:26:15.517
See--his eyes are opened by god and he sees the angels who have
00:26:15.517 --> 00:26:19.221
Come to protect them.
00:26:19.221 --> 00:26:20.789
And there are, kirk, i know this is hard to believe, but there
00:26:20.789 --> 00:26:23.559
Are contemporary accounts of angelic encounters that
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:27.596
Are compelling.
00:26:27.596 --> 00:26:28.931
John g. paton, p-a-t-o-n, was a scottish missionary in the new
00:26:28.931 --> 00:26:33.035
Hebrides islands in the south pacific.
00:26:33.035 --> 00:26:35.137
He and his wife go, they're living in a little cottage,
00:26:35.137 --> 00:26:37.072
They're sharing jesus to the tribespeople.
00:26:37.072 --> 00:26:39.007
Well, the tribespeople didn't like it and they wanted to
00:26:39.007 --> 00:26:41.176
Kill him.
00:26:41.176 --> 00:26:42.544
So one night a mob came to kill john and his wife.
00:26:42.544 --> 00:26:45.414
So they're in their cottage, they're praying, "god, protect
00:26:45.414 --> 00:26:47.850
Us, help us.
00:26:47.850 --> 00:26:49.218
We're--they're here to kill us and burn down our house."
00:26:49.218 --> 00:26:52.221
They prayed all night, and the mob dissipates.
00:26:52.221 --> 00:26:55.858
Well, about a year later, he leads the head of the mob to
00:26:55.858 --> 00:27:00.095
Faith in christ.
00:27:00.095 --> 00:27:01.463
And he's talking to him one day, he says, "by the way, remember
00:27:01.463 --> 00:27:03.565
That day when y'all came to kill us?
00:27:03.565 --> 00:27:05.467
Why didn't you do it?"
00:27:05.467 --> 00:27:07.069
And he said, "well, who were all those men you had protecting
00:27:07.069 --> 00:27:09.838
Your house?"
00:27:09.838 --> 00:27:11.206
And he said, "i didn't have any men.
00:27:11.206 --> 00:27:12.641
It was just my wife and i."
00:27:12.641 --> 00:27:14.009
"oh no, there were hundreds of men in white garments with
00:27:14.009 --> 00:27:18.881
Swords drawn encircling your house that night.
00:27:18.881 --> 00:27:22.317
We couldn't have attacked you."
00:27:22.317 --> 00:27:24.920
What's that all about?
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.856
I think it was the angels.
00:27:27.856 --> 00:27:30.559
Kirk: all these stories are in the book.
00:27:29.224 --> 00:27:31.927
Lee: yeah, billy graham documented that one.
00:27:31.927 --> 00:27:33.262
Kirk: billy graham documented that one.
00:27:33.262 --> 00:27:34.596
All right, let's talk about demonic possession.
00:27:34.596 --> 00:27:36.365
I mentioned "the exorcist" earlier and we talked about
00:27:36.365 --> 00:27:39.735
Jesus casting out demons that were in people,
00:27:39.735 --> 00:27:44.706
Controlling them.
00:27:44.706 --> 00:27:46.041
We even have modern movies today that are about
00:27:46.041 --> 00:27:49.378
Demonic possession.
00:27:49.378 --> 00:27:50.746
Is that a real phenomenon?
00:27:50.746 --> 00:27:52.080
Lee: it is a real phenomenon.
00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:53.415
In fact, there's a highly respected psychiatrist, so he's
00:27:53.415 --> 00:27:56.051
A medical doctor trained in psychiatry at an ivy
00:27:56.051 --> 00:27:59.254
League university.
00:27:59.254 --> 00:28:00.622
His name is richard gallagher.
00:28:00.622 --> 00:28:01.957
He's also a professor at some major universities in the
00:28:01.957 --> 00:28:05.461
Northeast, highly respected.
00:28:05.461 --> 00:28:07.229
I have a quote from the former president of the american
00:28:07.229 --> 00:28:09.331
Association of psychiatrists saying he's a man of great
00:28:09.331 --> 00:28:12.734
Integrity, great honor, great learning,
00:28:12.734 --> 00:28:15.304
Trustworthy individual.
00:28:15.304 --> 00:28:16.905
And he tells a story about 20 years ago where he had two cats.
00:28:16.905 --> 00:28:21.710
His wife--they had two cats.
00:28:21.710 --> 00:28:23.378
And the cats loved each other.
00:28:23.378 --> 00:28:24.813
Kirk: wait a minute, i don't trust any man that owns a cat.
00:28:24.813 --> 00:28:28.984
Did i just say that?
00:28:28.984 --> 00:28:30.319
I'm sorry.
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:31.687
Lee: yeah, you're gonna pay for that.
00:28:31.687 --> 00:28:33.021
So they had two cats and the cats got along great, never had
00:28:33.021 --> 00:28:34.790
A problem, until one night they started attacking each other.
00:28:34.790 --> 00:28:38.060
I mean, viciously snarling each other, clawing each other,
00:28:38.060 --> 00:28:41.396
Trying to kill each other.
00:28:41.396 --> 00:28:42.731
It was unbelievable.
00:28:42.731 --> 00:28:44.099
They had to rip them apart and put them in separate rooms,
00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:46.735
Said, "what the heck was that?"
00:28:46.735 --> 00:28:48.871
The next morning at 9 a.m. the doorbell rings.
00:28:48.871 --> 00:28:51.740
He had agreed earlier to do a psychiatric evaluation of a
00:28:51.740 --> 00:28:55.644
Woman who claimed to be the high priestess of a satanic cult.
00:28:55.644 --> 00:29:00.182
Doorbell rings, it's a catholic priest with this satanic cult
00:29:00.182 --> 00:29:05.020
Leader, and she looks at him with a sneer on her face and
00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:08.457
Says, "so, how'd you like those cats last night?"
00:29:08.457 --> 00:29:16.231
So richard gallagher ends up spending, like, 20 years
00:29:16.231 --> 00:29:20.335
Involved with exorcisms, involved with
00:29:20.335 --> 00:29:22.371
Demonic possessions.
00:29:22.371 --> 00:29:24.740
He wrote a book about it.
00:29:24.740 --> 00:29:26.642
Totally credible individual.
00:29:26.642 --> 00:29:28.243
Yes, there are demonic beings.
00:29:28.243 --> 00:29:29.678
Now, here's the good news for a believer of jesus christ.
00:29:29.678 --> 00:29:32.781
If you are born again, if you're a follower of christ, if you
00:29:32.781 --> 00:29:35.517
Received him as your lord and savior, you are indwelled by the
00:29:35.517 --> 00:29:37.819
Holy spirit.
00:29:37.819 --> 00:29:39.187
You cannot be also indwelled by satan and--or demonic spirits.
00:29:39.187 --> 00:29:43.225
So we--christians cannot be demon possessed, but they can
00:29:43.225 --> 00:29:47.563
Bug us, they can bother us, they can hector us, they can cause
00:29:47.563 --> 00:29:52.634
Problems for us.
00:29:52.634 --> 00:29:54.169
And here's the other thing.
00:29:54.169 --> 00:29:55.537
If you were satan and you thought, how do i hurt the
00:29:55.537 --> 00:29:58.941
Maximum number of people?
00:29:58.941 --> 00:30:01.076
Maybe what you would do is go to a place, i don't know,
00:30:01.076 --> 00:30:03.512
Like hollywood.
00:30:03.512 --> 00:30:04.913
And you would say, "what if i inspired the creation of some
00:30:04.913 --> 00:30:08.550
Really great films that taught horrible values, ungodly values?
00:30:08.550 --> 00:30:14.957
But they're funny and people laugh, and their guard will come
00:30:14.957 --> 00:30:17.359
Down and people will really embrace these great tv shows and
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.496
Movies with these horrible values.
00:30:21.496 --> 00:30:24.266
I can help inculcate those values into a culture."
00:30:24.266 --> 00:30:28.136
Wouldn't that be a strategy you would think he would do
00:30:28.136 --> 00:30:31.039
Strategically to influence a large number of people?
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:34.776
I think so.
00:30:34.776 --> 00:30:36.244
Now, satan himself is not omnipresent.
00:30:36.244 --> 00:30:39.047
He is not present everywhere.
00:30:39.047 --> 00:30:40.882
I talked to an expert on this and he said satan has probably
00:30:40.882 --> 00:30:43.251
Never been in your zip code.
00:30:43.251 --> 00:30:44.586
Kirk: well, that's quite a thing to put on your résumé.
00:30:44.586 --> 00:30:46.922
"expert in satan."
00:30:46.922 --> 00:30:51.126
Lee: yeah, but you know, demons are fallen angels, and angels
00:30:51.126 --> 00:30:55.597
Are immaterial, their spirit, and they can move very quickly
00:30:55.597 --> 00:30:58.533
And they--and there's millions of them, and they can
00:30:58.533 --> 00:31:02.571
Cause possession.
00:31:02.571 --> 00:31:03.939
And in the book, i talk about cases, and again, these are
00:31:03.939 --> 00:31:06.141
Documented cases where people possessed by demons are able to
00:31:06.141 --> 00:31:11.013
Speak in latin, a language they do not know, a case where half a
00:31:11.013 --> 00:31:14.850
Dozen people witnessed someone levitating off of a bed who was
00:31:14.850 --> 00:31:19.287
Satanically possessed, a case of a woman picking up a 217 pound
00:31:19.287 --> 00:31:24.726
Lutheran deacon and throwing him across the room.
00:31:24.726 --> 00:31:28.563
These bizarre experiences that take place with people who are
00:31:28.563 --> 00:31:33.101
Indeed possessed by demons.
00:31:33.101 --> 00:31:35.837
Kirk: well, this stuff is fascinating.
00:31:35.837 --> 00:31:37.773
I--and, you know, you are a credible friend, and i know that
00:31:37.773 --> 00:31:42.544
You are not lying to me and that what you're telling me what you
00:31:42.544 --> 00:31:45.013
Wrote in this book that you believe is absolutely true, and
00:31:45.013 --> 00:31:47.616
I don't take that lightly.
00:31:47.616 --> 00:31:49.184
There's a pastor in the area here who recently had a video
00:31:49.184 --> 00:31:52.220
That went kind of viral, and i love what he said about satan.
00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:55.390
He said, you know, some people have this idea that it's,
00:31:55.390 --> 00:31:56.925
Like, god versus satan, satan versus god.
00:31:56.925 --> 00:31:58.360
It's kind of like a rocky balboa versus drago.
00:31:58.360 --> 00:32:02.130
And it's, rocky throws a punch, and drago throws a punch, and
00:32:02.130 --> 00:32:04.633
It's back and forth, back and forth.
00:32:04.633 --> 00:32:06.001
He says, "no, no," he's like, "it looked"--he said, you know,
00:32:06.001 --> 00:32:09.671
"satan, luther said, is god's devil.
00:32:09.671 --> 00:32:13.241
He's on a leash.
00:32:13.241 --> 00:32:14.576
There's nothing that he can do that is not first permitted
00:32:14.576 --> 00:32:17.479
By god.
00:32:17.479 --> 00:32:18.814
Look at the book of job.
00:32:18.814 --> 00:32:20.182
He couldn't do anything unless god gave him permission."
00:32:20.182 --> 00:32:21.516
And he said satan is a runt pawn, and god is a king.
00:32:21.516 --> 00:32:26.488
Lee: that's right, they're not coequals in any sense.
00:32:26.488 --> 00:32:27.889
Kirk: and they're not co-equal, he's the creator, and was
00:32:27.889 --> 00:32:31.760
Delivered the death blow, i believe, at the cross, at
00:32:31.760 --> 00:32:34.896
The crucifixion.
00:32:34.896 --> 00:32:36.264
When he has the keys to the kingdom, all authority was given
00:32:36.264 --> 00:32:40.368
To him both in heaven and on earth, how much authority does
00:32:40.368 --> 00:32:44.005
That leave for satan?
00:32:44.005 --> 00:32:46.007
I think that's zero, and he's slinking off to a place of
00:32:46.007 --> 00:32:52.814
Absolute destruction, if not there already.
00:32:52.814 --> 00:32:56.818
And so personally, when people ask me about how i battle
00:32:56.818 --> 00:33:00.422
Spiritual warfare, i already know that i'm not fighting for
00:33:00.422 --> 00:33:05.160
Victory over the spiritual realm.
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:06.962
I'm fighting from victory, and it was accomplished and secured
00:33:06.962 --> 00:33:11.299
For me and you by christ.
00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:14.002
And so now i'm on the offense.
00:33:14.002 --> 00:33:15.737
I'm not on the defense, and honestly, i don't ignore the
00:33:15.737 --> 00:33:19.775
Existence of a supernatural realm and the possibility that
00:33:19.775 --> 00:33:23.445
There are active demonic forces at work against us.
00:33:23.445 --> 00:33:27.349
However, i don't give it much space in my brain because i'm on
00:33:27.349 --> 00:33:33.622
The offense, wanting to advance the good, the true, and
00:33:33.622 --> 00:33:36.424
The beautiful.
00:33:36.424 --> 00:33:37.759
I don't have time for most of that stuff.
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:39.227
Lee: yeah, i think--
00:33:39.227 --> 00:33:40.562
Kirk: you know the battle i fight?
00:33:40.562 --> 00:33:41.930
I fight against my flesh.
00:33:41.930 --> 00:33:44.666
And the bible talks about the world, the flesh, and the devil.
00:33:44.666 --> 00:33:48.303
And a man who is of the flesh, who's operating from wisdom,
00:33:48.303 --> 00:33:52.707
That is not from above but that is earthly and sensual and
00:33:52.707 --> 00:33:55.710
Demonic, i mean, i've got enough trouble and enough evidence of
00:33:55.710 --> 00:34:00.615
My own wicked heart to justify all the evil things that i do
00:34:00.615 --> 00:34:05.053
And that i see other people doing.
00:34:05.053 --> 00:34:06.822
Lee: our flesh is our biggest adversary, our sinful nature
00:34:06.822 --> 00:34:12.427
That rear rears up and tries to lure us into sin and so forth, i
00:34:12.427 --> 00:34:16.531
Think that's true.
00:34:16.531 --> 00:34:17.866
However, i would say that in the supernatural realm there is a
00:34:17.866 --> 00:34:22.103
Battle going on and that satan would like nothing more than to
00:34:22.103 --> 00:34:25.707
See kirk cameron fall morally.
00:34:25.707 --> 00:34:29.311
I think that would probably be fairly high on his list.
00:34:29.311 --> 00:34:31.713
And so, i think we have to be alert to that possibility and be
00:34:31.713 --> 00:34:35.884
Aware that he might be setting some traps for us.
00:34:35.884 --> 00:34:39.821
But that's not to say--that's not to get overly obsessed with
00:34:39.821 --> 00:34:42.757
It and to get paranoid about it, but to say, "the best thing i
00:34:42.757 --> 00:34:47.462
Can do is follow christ carefully to become a student of
00:34:47.462 --> 00:34:50.565
Scripture so i know when something doesn't smell right,
00:34:50.565 --> 00:34:54.369
And so forth."
00:34:54.369 --> 00:34:55.737
I can test everything by scripture, and so i can have a
00:34:55.737 --> 00:35:00.308
Healthy perspective on these issues and not one that's
00:35:00.308 --> 00:35:04.312
Unnecessarily too focused on it.
00:35:04.312 --> 00:35:07.048
Kirk: yeah, and i love that you keep bringing it back to
00:35:07.048 --> 00:35:08.783
Scripture because these things are so fascinating that it makes
00:35:08.783 --> 00:35:12.087
Our speculation run wild.
00:35:12.087 --> 00:35:14.155
Our imagination is just lit on fire, and stories like this are
00:35:14.155 --> 00:35:18.426
Like gasoline on that fire, and we can become obsessed with
00:35:18.426 --> 00:35:21.830
Things like that.
00:35:21.830 --> 00:35:23.198
So the scripture brings us back, it ties us to truth and reality
00:35:23.198 --> 00:35:28.803
That there is a spiritual realm.
00:35:28.803 --> 00:35:31.539
We read about demons and angels.
00:35:31.539 --> 00:35:33.308
Lee: and ephesians tells us to put on the armor, spiritual
00:35:33.308 --> 00:35:36.678
Armor, that there is warfare.
00:35:36.678 --> 00:35:38.079
So we gotta be aware of that and we got to take that seriously.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:40.415
And part of that is putting on the helmet, in other words, to
00:35:40.415 --> 00:35:44.085
Understand scripture and to study scripture so that we can
00:35:44.085 --> 00:35:46.721
Be prepared against the--any attacks.
00:35:46.721 --> 00:35:49.858
Kirk: and at the same time, we know that we are secure and
00:35:49.858 --> 00:35:53.628
Safe, as psalm 91 says, that he covers us in his feathers.
00:35:53.628 --> 00:35:58.099
I just picture that.
00:35:58.099 --> 00:35:59.434
And under his wings, we take refuge, and that his truth is
00:35:59.434 --> 00:36:02.070
Our shield and our buckler.
00:36:02.070 --> 00:36:04.272
And though 10,000 may fall at our side, it shall not come
00:36:04.272 --> 00:36:08.209
Near you.
00:36:08.209 --> 00:36:09.577
I just think, oh, i'm secure in christ.
00:36:09.577 --> 00:36:12.614
When it comes to the supernatural world, how much
00:36:12.614 --> 00:36:16.017
Should we be really thinking about it?
00:36:16.017 --> 00:36:18.186
What is healthy versus unhealthy?
00:36:18.186 --> 00:36:20.388
We're gonna talk more about this after the break.
00:36:20.388 --> 00:36:22.590
♪♪♪
00:36:22.590 --> 00:36:27.195
♪♪♪
00:36:28.041 --> 00:36:35.582
Kirk: lee strobel has stayed with us to discuss the existence
00:36:35.582 --> 00:36:38.651
Of the unseen world around us.
00:36:38.651 --> 00:36:40.887
Lee, this is just so fascinating.
00:36:40.887 --> 00:36:42.755
I mentioned earlier that there are many reports of jesus dreams
00:36:42.755 --> 00:36:48.528
Of muslim people.
00:36:48.528 --> 00:36:49.896
Have you heard of these?
00:36:49.896 --> 00:36:51.231
Lee: absolutely, i have a chapter in the book
00:36:51.231 --> 00:36:52.565
On that topic, tt's fascinating.
00:36:52.565 --> 00:36:54.100
Here you have these closed countries where in many cases
00:36:54.100 --> 00:36:56.636
It's illegal to share the gospel of jesus, and yet we've seen
00:36:56.636 --> 00:37:01.107
More muslims come to faith in christ in the last couple of
00:37:01.107 --> 00:37:03.576
Decades and in 1400 years since muhammad, and a third to a
00:37:03.576 --> 00:37:07.914
Quarter of them have had a jesus dream before they converted.
00:37:07.914 --> 00:37:11.451
But what's interesting is there's external corroboration
00:37:11.451 --> 00:37:14.687
For these dreams.
00:37:14.687 --> 00:37:16.022
In other words, this is not just something from a
00:37:16.022 --> 00:37:17.390
Subconscious mind.
00:37:17.390 --> 00:37:18.725
Besides which, a devout muslim has no incentive to have a dream
00:37:18.725 --> 00:37:22.595
About the christian jesus, and maybe lead him into apostasy and
00:37:22.595 --> 00:37:26.366
Maybe a death sentence in certain countries.
00:37:26.366 --> 00:37:28.134
So, there's no incentive to have a dream like this, but i'll tell
00:37:28.134 --> 00:37:33.106
You how it works.
00:37:33.106 --> 00:37:34.507
They don't go to sleep and have a dream about jesus
00:37:34.507 --> 00:37:37.110
And wake up as a christian.
00:37:37.110 --> 00:37:38.545
That's not how it works.
00:37:38.545 --> 00:37:39.879
Here's what happens. i'll tell you an example.
00:37:39.879 --> 00:37:41.681
There's a woman named noor and she's a mother of eight,
00:37:41.681 --> 00:37:44.751
A devout muslim in cairo.
00:37:44.751 --> 00:37:46.853
And she has a dream about jesus and it's unlike any dream she's
00:37:46.853 --> 00:37:50.323
Ever had.
00:37:50.323 --> 00:37:51.691
And she's walking along the lake shore with jesus and it's just
00:37:51.691 --> 00:37:53.793
So mesmerizing.
00:37:53.793 --> 00:37:55.128
And she said, "i felt the love and the grace and the purity and
00:37:55.128 --> 00:37:58.498
The beauty of jesus.
00:37:58.498 --> 00:37:59.866
And for the first time in my life, i didn't feel shame.
00:37:59.866 --> 00:38:02.702
I was with a man, but i didn't feel shame.
00:38:02.702 --> 00:38:04.904
And we're walking along and i said, 'tell me, jesus, why did
00:38:04.904 --> 00:38:09.309
You appear to me?
00:38:09.309 --> 00:38:10.643
I'm a poor muslim mother of eight.'"
00:38:10.643 --> 00:38:13.246
And he said, "my friend will tell you tomorrow all about why
00:38:13.246 --> 00:38:18.017
I'm here."
00:38:18.017 --> 00:38:19.385
Said, "who is your friend?"
00:38:19.385 --> 00:38:20.753
And he gestured down, she realized there was another man
00:38:20.753 --> 00:38:23.089
Walking with them.
00:38:23.089 --> 00:38:24.424
She hadn't noticed him because she was so mesmerized by jesus.
00:38:24.424 --> 00:38:27.760
And, oh, there's a man walking with them.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.129
So she wakes up from this dream.
00:38:30.129 --> 00:38:31.464
The next day, she goes to the crowded marketplace in cairo and
00:38:31.464 --> 00:38:34.634
She sees the man from her dream.
00:38:34.634 --> 00:38:36.836
She goes up to him, "you're the one."
00:38:36.836 --> 00:38:38.171
He said, "what--?"
00:38:38.171 --> 00:38:39.539
Kirk: "you're the man of my dreams."
00:38:39.539 --> 00:38:41.507
Lee: "you're the one.
00:38:41.507 --> 00:38:42.875
Same glasses, same face, same clothes.
00:38:42.875 --> 00:38:44.344
You're the guy."
00:38:44.344 --> 00:38:45.712
And he said, "did you have a dream about jesus last night?"
00:38:45.712 --> 00:38:49.282
"yes."
00:38:49.282 --> 00:38:50.617
He's an underground church planter.
00:38:50.617 --> 00:38:52.685
He wasn't gonna go to the crowded marketplace in cairo on
00:38:52.685 --> 00:38:55.021
Friday afternoon because it's chaotic, but he felt like god
00:38:55.021 --> 00:38:57.924
Had an assignment for him.
00:38:57.924 --> 00:38:59.292
So he went that day, he encounters this woman who saw
00:38:59.292 --> 00:39:02.829
Him in her dream with jesus.
00:39:02.829 --> 00:39:04.597
He pulls her aside, he opens the bible, and he shares the gospel
00:39:04.597 --> 00:39:07.734
With her.
00:39:07.734 --> 00:39:09.068
That is how these dreams--that's how these work.
00:39:09.068 --> 00:39:11.104
So there's external corroboration.
00:39:11.104 --> 00:39:13.072
It's not just a dream inside someone's head.
00:39:13.072 --> 00:39:16.109
It points towards somebody, and that's how these things
00:39:16.109 --> 00:39:18.411
Take place.
00:39:18.411 --> 00:39:19.779
These are so common.
00:39:19.779 --> 00:39:21.114
I interviewed tom doyle, who's written books about this.
00:39:21.114 --> 00:39:23.316
He's a middle eastern expert.
00:39:23.316 --> 00:39:24.984
And he said, "lee, i could call syria right now, i could call
00:39:24.984 --> 00:39:28.655
Iraq right now and give you five more stories."
00:39:28.655 --> 00:39:30.890
He said it is so common.
00:39:30.890 --> 00:39:32.925
In fact, he said in cairo often in the newspaper you'll see an
00:39:32.925 --> 00:39:36.863
Ad, and the ad will say, "call this number and we'll tell you
00:39:36.863 --> 00:39:41.000
About the man in white you met in your dream last night."
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.337
That's how common these are.
00:39:44.337 --> 00:39:46.272
Kirk: now, if this is accurate, and i believe that you're
00:39:46.272 --> 00:39:51.277
Telling me the truth, then what we can deduce from this is that
00:39:51.277 --> 00:39:55.281
This isn't demonic activity, because why would a demon want
00:39:55.281 --> 00:39:57.917
To lead people to jesus and to a man who's gonna preach the
00:39:57.917 --> 00:40:01.154
Gospel to them?
00:40:01.154 --> 00:40:03.156
And this also would indicate that god himself is pleased to
00:40:03.156 --> 00:40:09.328
Reveal himself through dreams and supernatural experiences.
00:40:09.328 --> 00:40:12.732
Lee: and he loves these people so much.
00:40:12.732 --> 00:40:14.967
You think that passing a law saying it's illegal to share the
00:40:14.967 --> 00:40:17.670
Gospel is gonna stop god from spreading his word?
00:40:17.670 --> 00:40:21.140
No, no, no, he'll do it through a dream if he has to.
00:40:21.140 --> 00:40:23.342
And, kirk, we had this happen at my church in houston, texas.
00:40:23.342 --> 00:40:27.647
There was a woman, when she was 16 years old, in a closed muslim
00:40:27.647 --> 00:40:30.383
Country, and she was going through problems.
00:40:30.383 --> 00:40:32.685
She called out, "god, god, where are you?"
00:40:32.685 --> 00:40:34.821
She has this dream about jesus.
00:40:34.821 --> 00:40:36.389
She said it was unlike any dream she ever had.
00:40:36.389 --> 00:40:38.291
It was like a motion picture projector was projecting it.
00:40:38.291 --> 00:40:41.427
And i said, "what did jesus say?"
00:40:41.427 --> 00:40:43.196
She said, "no, no, no, it wasn't what he said.
00:40:43.196 --> 00:40:44.731
It was who he was.
00:40:44.731 --> 00:40:46.432
I felt his love and his grace," and so forth.
00:40:46.432 --> 00:40:50.069
Well, she ends up marrying a muslim.
00:40:50.069 --> 00:40:52.605
They immigrate to houston, texas because of the oil industry.
00:40:52.605 --> 00:40:56.476
And she has another supernatural dream.
00:40:56.476 --> 00:40:58.611
And in this dream, she's--she couldn't make any sense of it.
00:40:58.611 --> 00:41:02.381
She's in a pond of water up to her waist and there's a man with
00:41:02.381 --> 00:41:06.052
Her with a book, and he's looking in the book and
00:41:06.052 --> 00:41:09.155
He's weeping.
00:41:09.155 --> 00:41:10.757
She has no idea what this is.
00:41:10.757 --> 00:41:12.625
She meets a woman from our church who's a neighbor and the
00:41:12.625 --> 00:41:15.027
Woman says, "hey, your husband's out of town.
00:41:15.027 --> 00:41:16.729
Why don't you come to easter services at our church?"
00:41:16.729 --> 00:41:19.198
"okay, i'll go with you."
00:41:19.198 --> 00:41:20.633
She comes to our church, she's sitting on the aisle waiting for
00:41:20.633 --> 00:41:22.902
The service to begin, and she sees the man from the pond with
00:41:22.902 --> 00:41:26.906
The book in her dream.
00:41:26.906 --> 00:41:30.042
"that's the man from my dream."
00:41:30.042 --> 00:41:31.410
His name is alan swann.
00:41:31.410 --> 00:41:33.045
He's our pastor of baptism.
00:41:33.045 --> 00:41:36.215
They lead this woman to faith in jesus christ, and then she goes
00:41:36.215 --> 00:41:40.052
Into our pond on our property with water up to her waist, and
00:41:40.052 --> 00:41:43.856
Allan with the bible, weeping at this new convert and baptizing
00:41:43.856 --> 00:41:48.161
Her in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit.
00:41:48.161 --> 00:41:50.897
That's in our church in houston, texas.
00:41:50.897 --> 00:41:54.567
She didn't know anything about baptism.
00:41:54.567 --> 00:41:55.935
She didn't know anything about god, of christianity.
00:41:55.935 --> 00:41:59.505
She, you know, she just had these couple of dreams.
00:41:59.505 --> 00:42:02.375
What do you do with it?
00:42:02.375 --> 00:42:03.709
Kirk: boy, lee, you're persuading me.
00:42:03.709 --> 00:42:05.077
You really are, you rascal.
00:42:05.077 --> 00:42:08.114
Lee: but there's 200 dreams in the bible where god uses dreams
00:42:08.114 --> 00:42:11.851
To--in cornelius and others who he reveals things to.
00:42:11.851 --> 00:42:16.255
So why wouldn't he continue that?
00:42:16.255 --> 00:42:19.525
Kirk: what about visitations from the dead?
00:42:19.525 --> 00:42:22.662
There are people who say, "you know, my grandmother," or
00:42:22.662 --> 00:42:26.232
Somebody, a childhood friend, "has visited me."
00:42:26.232 --> 00:42:30.803
What do you think about that kind of thing?
00:42:30.803 --> 00:42:32.305
Lee: i'm a little more skeptical of those.
00:42:32.305 --> 00:42:34.140
We--i talk about several cases in my book that
00:42:34.140 --> 00:42:37.009
Are corroborated.
00:42:37.009 --> 00:42:38.377
So for instance, we have a case of a woman
00:42:38.377 --> 00:42:39.745
Who is a business executive.
00:42:39.745 --> 00:42:41.080
She's on a business trip, she brought her eight-year-old son
00:42:41.080 --> 00:42:42.815
With her.
00:42:42.815 --> 00:42:44.150
And that night, her father, it's her father or grandfather, i
00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:49.722
Can't remember, appears to her and talks to her and tells her
00:42:49.722 --> 00:42:54.160
Everything's okay and, "take care of your son," and so forth.
00:42:54.160 --> 00:42:57.096
And then he disappears.
00:42:57.096 --> 00:42:58.598
And her son comes up to her later and says, "i saw
00:42:58.598 --> 00:43:02.201
My grandfather."
00:43:02.201 --> 00:43:04.136
"what do you mean?"
00:43:04.136 --> 00:43:05.504
"he was here. he was--he talked to me too.
00:43:05.504 --> 00:43:07.406
He was here. i saw him."
00:43:07.406 --> 00:43:09.642
So, is that independent corroboration
00:43:09.642 --> 00:43:11.510
That something's going on?
00:43:11.510 --> 00:43:13.679
Here's how i'm a little bit skeptical--more skeptical
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:15.514
Of these.
00:43:15.514 --> 00:43:17.183
Kirk: that sounds like similar corroboration, so why are you
00:43:17.183 --> 00:43:19.285
Skeptical with this one?
00:43:19.285 --> 00:43:20.620
Lee: well, because of the message.
00:43:20.620 --> 00:43:22.788
If a person lived an ungodly life and has died and appears
00:43:22.788 --> 00:43:28.527
And says to you, it's your father, or whatever, "hey,
00:43:28.527 --> 00:43:31.163
Everything's fine.
00:43:31.163 --> 00:43:32.531
I'm doing good.
00:43:32.531 --> 00:43:33.866
Take care of yourself, take care of your family," and
00:43:33.866 --> 00:43:35.234
Goes--you're gonna say, "oh yeah, i'll just live like my
00:43:35.234 --> 00:43:37.470
Father did," or whatever.
00:43:37.470 --> 00:43:39.338
You know, i'd like more information on some of these to
00:43:39.338 --> 00:43:43.342
Be able to really say that these are of god and not a
00:43:43.342 --> 00:43:46.112
Demonic imitation.
00:43:46.112 --> 00:43:47.713
Kirk: have you met any scholars, scientists, and you've shared
00:43:47.713 --> 00:43:51.484
Stories like this with--who sit there and just scratch their
00:43:51.484 --> 00:43:55.454
Head after listening to you like i am and say, "you know what?
00:43:55.454 --> 00:43:58.057
I still don't believe in it, but boy, you've got me thinking"?
00:43:58.057 --> 00:44:01.260
Lee: when you look at the scientific literature, what's
00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:03.796
Interesting is, for instance, of these near-death experiences we
00:44:03.796 --> 00:44:06.465
Talked about, there have been 900 scholarly articles published
00:44:06.465 --> 00:44:10.336
In peer-reviewed scientific medical journals over the last
00:44:10.336 --> 00:44:13.172
50 years.
00:44:13.172 --> 00:44:14.507
This is a well-studied subject.
00:44:14.507 --> 00:44:16.876
Deathbed visions have been studied.
00:44:16.876 --> 00:44:18.411
There have been tens of thousands of them have been
00:44:18.411 --> 00:44:20.379
Studied by professors at harvard and cambridge and
00:44:20.379 --> 00:44:23.683
Oxford universities.
00:44:23.683 --> 00:44:25.051
So these are well studied.
00:44:25.051 --> 00:44:26.385
And so, there's a famous dutch cardiologist who's an expert on
00:44:26.385 --> 00:44:29.288
Near-death experiences, and he published in peer-reviewed
00:44:29.288 --> 00:44:32.825
Secular scientific journals analysis of these near-death
00:44:32.825 --> 00:44:36.996
Experiences and documented that there is no alternative
00:44:36.996 --> 00:44:40.533
Explanation that can account for these.
00:44:40.533 --> 00:44:43.202
You might say, "oh, maybe it's a lack of oxygen at death that
00:44:43.202 --> 00:44:46.205
Make people conjure up--"
00:44:46.205 --> 00:44:47.540
Kirk: in a hallucination.
00:44:47.540 --> 00:44:48.874
Lee: yeah, yeah.
00:44:48.874 --> 00:44:50.242
No, they don't.
00:44:50.242 --> 00:44:51.577
They were--they will demonstrate that that manifests itself this
00:44:51.577 --> 00:44:53.112
Way, but near-death experiences are like this.
00:44:53.112 --> 00:44:55.081
They're not hallucinations and so forth.
00:44:55.081 --> 00:44:57.316
They're not dreams and so forth.
00:44:57.316 --> 00:44:59.218
So, we have scientific analysis of these things.
00:44:59.218 --> 00:45:03.656
Not only that, but there are 47 points of correspondence and
00:45:03.656 --> 00:45:07.994
Consistency between the bible and near-death experiences and
00:45:07.994 --> 00:45:12.264
Deathbed visions, 47 points of correspondence.
00:45:12.264 --> 00:45:15.735
And john burke, who's a christian pastor who studied
00:45:15.735 --> 00:45:19.271
1000 near-death experiences, and i--who i interviewed for my
00:45:19.271 --> 00:45:22.975
Book, says that when you study not how people interpret their
00:45:22.975 --> 00:45:29.248
Near-death experience, because people interpret it through
00:45:29.248 --> 00:45:31.083
Their worldview.
00:45:31.083 --> 00:45:32.451
Set that aside.
00:45:32.451 --> 00:45:33.786
What actually takes place during a near-death experience, it is
00:45:33.786 --> 00:45:36.722
Consistent with scripture.
00:45:36.722 --> 00:45:39.525
That's pretty powerful.
00:45:39.525 --> 00:45:41.093
So, i think, you know, when people are skeptical, i wanna
00:45:41.093 --> 00:45:44.530
Say to them, "have you looked into it?
00:45:44.530 --> 00:45:46.065
Have you studied the scientific literature?
00:45:46.065 --> 00:45:48.034
Have you read 'the lancet,' the journal of medicine in england
00:45:48.034 --> 00:45:52.571
About cases like this?
00:45:52.571 --> 00:45:53.939
Have you studied cases of miracles that are documented?"
00:45:53.939 --> 00:45:56.909
And so forth.
00:45:56.909 --> 00:45:58.544
And most people haven't.
00:45:58.544 --> 00:46:00.212
They raise skeptical objections, but i encourage them to do the
00:46:00.212 --> 00:46:04.750
Research i did because i started as a skeptic.
00:46:04.750 --> 00:46:06.952
I thought near-death experience was a new age-y thing.
00:46:06.952 --> 00:46:09.822
And then i see people like gary habermas and j.p.
00:46:09.822 --> 00:46:12.291
Moreland, two prominent christian philosophers who've
00:46:12.291 --> 00:46:14.894
Written about this going back to the 1990s, and i say, "wait a
00:46:14.894 --> 00:46:18.964
Minute, maybe they know something i don't know."
00:46:18.964 --> 00:46:20.966
And the more i dig into it and i see it's consistent with
00:46:20.966 --> 00:46:23.536
Scripture, the more convinced i become.
00:46:23.536 --> 00:46:26.505
Kirk: so many people tend to just believe what they want to
00:46:26.505 --> 00:46:31.143
Believe and look for the evidence that will support their
00:46:31.143 --> 00:46:35.514
Belief and back it up.
00:46:35.514 --> 00:46:37.616
But if someone wants to do the kind of research that you did,
00:46:37.616 --> 00:46:40.820
Looking at "the lancet" and other things, a gift is this
00:46:40.820 --> 00:46:45.291
Book because all the research that you did is essentially
00:46:45.291 --> 00:46:48.527
Summarized in this book with footnotes to some of the medical
00:46:48.527 --> 00:46:53.432
Journal articles and other studies so that you can become
00:46:53.432 --> 00:46:57.803
Confident in our ability to experience things on the other
00:46:57.803 --> 00:47:03.609
Side, but in a way that lines up with what the bible says.
00:47:03.609 --> 00:47:06.445
Lee: right, exactly, and that's the key.
00:47:06.445 --> 00:47:09.215
I don't learn about the supernatural experience from
00:47:09.215 --> 00:47:11.383
Psychics or from stories that people tell.
00:47:11.383 --> 00:47:14.720
I learned about it from the bible and then i see that many
00:47:14.720 --> 00:47:17.523
Of these cases are consistent with what the bible teaches.
00:47:17.523 --> 00:47:20.559
Kirk: and i'm so glad that you're doing that because, you
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.696
Know, i want to stay in the real world.
00:47:23.696 --> 00:47:28.033
I don't want to get lost in la la land and in speculation, and
00:47:28.033 --> 00:47:31.971
There's so many frauds, there's so many tricksters and magicians
00:47:31.971 --> 00:47:34.707
Out there that they ruin it.
00:47:34.707 --> 00:47:38.511
And yet, you're helping us remember that god is on his
00:47:38.511 --> 00:47:42.014
Throne, the devil's not in charge, satan is not the
00:47:42.014 --> 00:47:45.217
Opposite of god.
00:47:45.217 --> 00:47:46.752
He is a pawn, he is a tool, he's a dog on a leash, and he does
00:47:46.752 --> 00:47:51.857
God's bidding, and that would go for the demons as well.
00:47:51.857 --> 00:47:55.928
And we don't need to be afraid of them, but we should be aware
00:47:55.928 --> 00:47:59.231
Of what the scriptures teach and what god appears to be doing
00:47:59.231 --> 00:48:02.768
With lots of proof and evidence around the world to lead people
00:48:02.768 --> 00:48:06.005
To jesus.
00:48:06.005 --> 00:48:07.339
Lee: yeah, and i think the only people who need to really be
00:48:07.339 --> 00:48:09.241
Afraid of the demonic world are those who are not yet adopted
00:48:09.241 --> 00:48:12.678
Into the family of god and are not indwelled by the
00:48:12.678 --> 00:48:14.947
Holy spirit.
00:48:14.947 --> 00:48:16.749
You know, the first thing i'd say to anybody is, "do you know
00:48:16.749 --> 00:48:19.218
Jesus personally?
00:48:19.218 --> 00:48:20.586
Have you met him?"
00:48:20.586 --> 00:48:21.921
You know, "have you received him?
00:48:21.921 --> 00:48:23.255
Have you received his free gift of grace?
00:48:23.255 --> 00:48:25.257
And are you born again?
00:48:25.257 --> 00:48:26.625
Have you--are you a follower of christ?"
00:48:26.625 --> 00:48:28.961
And if so, that's the best protection against the warfare
00:48:28.961 --> 00:48:32.831
That we see in the supernatural realm.
00:48:32.831 --> 00:48:36.035
Kirk: can i throw a crazy thought into this that's
00:48:36.035 --> 00:48:39.338
Actually not crazy?
00:48:39.338 --> 00:48:40.706
It's the most sobering, reality-producing thing we could
00:48:40.706 --> 00:48:44.910
Think about.
00:48:44.910 --> 00:48:46.245
You know, the person that jesus said that we should be most
00:48:46.245 --> 00:48:49.748
Afraid of is not a demon and it's not satan.
00:48:49.748 --> 00:48:51.984
It's god himself.
00:48:51.984 --> 00:48:53.652
He said, "don't fear man who, after killing the body, can do
00:48:53.652 --> 00:48:56.689
Nothing else."
00:48:56.689 --> 00:48:58.023
He said, "fear god who, after killing the body,
00:48:58.023 --> 00:48:59.391
Can cast your soul into hell.
00:48:59.391 --> 00:49:00.759
I tell you, fear him."
00:49:00.759 --> 00:49:02.094
"the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom and
00:49:02.094 --> 00:49:04.363
Of knowledge."
00:49:04.363 --> 00:49:05.698
So the truth is, if you don't know jesus christ, the most
00:49:05.698 --> 00:49:09.602
Terrifying being in all of existence is not the devil.
00:49:09.602 --> 00:49:14.106
It's almighty god of heaven, because he is going to once and
00:49:14.106 --> 00:49:19.144
For all, fully and finally extinguish evil and satan and
00:49:19.144 --> 00:49:23.749
Demons and all those who do not love his son jesus christ.
00:49:23.749 --> 00:49:28.187
So that's step number one, is get to know the author of life.
00:49:28.187 --> 00:49:33.892
Lee: exactly, absolutely.
00:49:33.892 --> 00:49:35.828
Kirk: lee, thank you so much--
00:49:35.828 --> 00:49:37.162
Lee: i've enjoyed it.
00:49:37.162 --> 00:49:38.530
Kirk: for being with us today.
00:49:38.530 --> 00:49:39.865
After the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:49:39.865 --> 00:49:41.900
♪♪♪
00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:46.005
♪♪♪
00:49:47.146 --> 00:49:54.387
Kirk: what an intriguing conversation with lee strobel
00:49:54.387 --> 00:49:57.523
About the miraculous and supernatural.
00:49:57.523 --> 00:50:00.726
We're amazed by these jaw-dropping stories, but what
00:50:00.726 --> 00:50:03.863
Can we take away from them?
00:50:03.863 --> 00:50:05.665
Lee gave us so much to consider.
00:50:05.665 --> 00:50:07.934
Let's talk about just a few of our takeaways.
00:50:07.934 --> 00:50:11.204
Miracles, god is the starting point.
00:50:11.204 --> 00:50:15.475
We're all fascinated by seemingly impossible events that
00:50:15.475 --> 00:50:19.612
Are documented and verified to be true.
00:50:19.612 --> 00:50:23.349
Some call these events "unexplained phenomena," but
00:50:23.349 --> 00:50:27.320
As the family of faith, we know better.
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:29.755
We've got a logical starting point for these miracles, an
00:50:29.755 --> 00:50:33.759
All-powerful creator who has revealed in scripture that there
00:50:33.759 --> 00:50:37.964
Is a spiritual realm, including angels and demons, and that
00:50:37.964 --> 00:50:43.236
Miracles come by his hand.
00:50:43.236 --> 00:50:46.506
He also equips us with the full armor of god to fight the good
00:50:46.506 --> 00:50:50.343
Fight of faith against the forces of darkness.
00:50:50.343 --> 00:50:54.847
Compare it to scripture.
00:50:54.847 --> 00:50:57.016
I loved lee's perspective as an investigative reporter.
00:50:57.016 --> 00:51:00.686
He knows the importance of needing to corroborate a story
00:51:00.686 --> 00:51:04.724
And verify that it aligns with the truth of scripture.
00:51:04.724 --> 00:51:09.729
Lee always asks, "is there anything about this story that
00:51:09.729 --> 00:51:13.266
Contradicts the bible, or that we don't find in the scriptures?
00:51:13.266 --> 00:51:18.671
Or does it align perfectly with the principles that we see in
00:51:18.671 --> 00:51:22.575
God's word?"
00:51:22.575 --> 00:51:24.076
Since the bible is always true and it never lies, we can know
00:51:24.076 --> 00:51:28.381
For sure that the spiritual world and miracles are for real.
00:51:28.381 --> 00:51:35.288
God is on his throne.
00:51:35.288 --> 00:51:37.356
I am so thankful for this takeaway.
00:51:37.356 --> 00:51:40.059
With all the talk of the paranormal, multiverses, demonic
00:51:40.059 --> 00:51:43.729
Possession, spiritual warfare, deathbed experiences, and ghost
00:51:43.729 --> 00:51:48.167
Stories, it is good to know that god is on his throne.
00:51:48.167 --> 00:51:53.439
Martin luther said that even the devil is god's devil and that he
00:51:53.439 --> 00:51:58.277
Has him on a leash.
00:51:58.277 --> 00:52:00.213
The devil can only do what god gives him permission to do, like
00:52:00.213 --> 00:52:04.183
We read in job.
00:52:04.183 --> 00:52:06.385
Because god has all authority both in heaven and on earth, we
00:52:06.385 --> 00:52:10.623
Can trust that god is working out all things seen and unseen
00:52:10.623 --> 00:52:16.796
For the good of those who love him and are called according to
00:52:16.796 --> 00:52:20.433
His purpose.
00:52:20.433 --> 00:52:22.301
And after hearing some of the stories today about how the lord
00:52:22.301 --> 00:52:25.805
Seems to be revealing himself in many ways around the world from
00:52:25.805 --> 00:52:30.409
The middle east to houston, texas, our response should be
00:52:30.409 --> 00:52:34.914
Nothing less than praise and worship.
00:52:34.914 --> 00:52:39.485
Well, that's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:39.485 --> 00:52:41.821
Thanks for watching.
00:52:41.821 --> 00:52:43.189
And if you've enjoyed this show, don't forget to set your dvr so
00:52:43.189 --> 00:52:47.193
You never miss an episode.
00:52:47.193 --> 00:52:48.728
And of course, you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:48.728 --> 00:52:51.764
Searching for "takeaways" on tbn+ or by visiting
00:52:51.764 --> 00:52:55.701
The "kirk cameron on tbn" youtube channel.
00:52:55.701 --> 00:52:59.338
We'll see you here next time for more great conversations.
00:52:59.338 --> 00:53:03.142
♪♪♪
00:53:03.142 --> 00:53:07.647
♪♪♪
00:53:09.982 --> 00:53:09.982

Lee Strobel: Investigating the Evidence of the Unseen World | Takeaways With Kirk Cameron

April 21, 2025 | 53:24

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