Sean McDowell & Gavin Ortlund: Speaking up with More Conviction and Less Conflict | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

July 7, 2025 | 55:2

Kirk Cameron is joined by apologist Sean McDowell and theologian Gavin Ortlund talking about how to share our faith in today’s culture along with the skills to be persuasive and calm in disagreements.

#Author #Culture #Apologetics #Belief #Bible #Faith #Relationships #Peopleinyourlife

Closed captions

Show Timecode

Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | Sean McDowell & Gavin Ortlund: Speaking up with More Conviction and Less Conflict | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron | July 7, 2025

Kirk cameron: when was the last time you had a disagreement
00:00:00.790 --> 00:00:02.392
With someone?
00:00:02.525 --> 00:00:03.726
Did you lose your temper?
00:00:03.860 --> 00:00:05.095
Did you say something you regretted, or didn't speak up
00:00:05.228 --> 00:00:06.229
When you know you should have?
00:00:08.631 --> 00:00:10.834
More today than ever, we need to be able to communicate in a way
00:00:10.834 --> 00:00:13.903
That builds relationships and doesn't tear each other down.
00:00:13.903 --> 00:00:17.941
As jesus said, "by this all people will know that you're my
00:00:17.941 --> 00:00:21.177
Disciples, if you love one another."
00:00:21.177 --> 00:00:24.314
So to give us insight on how to better connect with people you
00:00:24.314 --> 00:00:27.617
Disagree with, whether it's about politics or faith, we're
00:00:27.617 --> 00:00:31.087
Gonna talk with two gifted communicators, sean mcdowell and
00:00:31.087 --> 00:00:34.824
Gavin ortlund.
00:00:34.824 --> 00:00:36.159
Let's get to it right now on "takeaways."
00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.062
Sean mcdowell: what's interesting about jesus is every
00:00:39.129 --> 00:00:41.965
Faith system like wants a piece of jesus.
00:00:41.965 --> 00:00:45.635
He's the only religious figure that transcends his own faith.
00:00:45.635 --> 00:00:49.105
Dr. gavin ortlund: the problem isn't that we will have a
00:00:49.105 --> 00:00:51.341
Different opinion.
00:00:51.341 --> 00:00:52.909
It's how we approach that and how we treat that and what we do
00:00:52.909 --> 00:00:56.746
In light of that.
00:00:56.746 --> 00:00:58.114
♪♪♪
00:00:58.114 --> 00:01:02.785
Kirk: it is so great to have sean mcdowell back with us.
00:01:04.787 --> 00:01:07.824
He's a professor at talbot school of theology, viola
00:01:07.824 --> 00:01:11.027
University, and an apologist.
00:01:11.027 --> 00:01:13.463
He's the author of many books, including his most recent one,
00:01:13.463 --> 00:01:16.499
"apologetics for an ever changing culture: a biblical and
00:01:16.499 --> 00:01:19.936
Culturally relevant approach to talking about god."
00:01:19.936 --> 00:01:23.840
Sean, thanks so much for coming back on "takeaways."
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:25.875
Sean: always good to be on with you, kirk.
00:01:25.875 --> 00:01:27.310
Kirk: i'm so glad that you have, you know, taken up the mission
00:01:27.310 --> 00:01:31.814
Of helping us to understand why we believe what we believe and
00:01:31.814 --> 00:01:36.052
Communicate the reason for the hope that we have in jesus.
00:01:36.052 --> 00:01:39.389
And in your new book, you say that apologetics training is
00:01:39.389 --> 00:01:44.294
Needed in the church now more than ever.
00:01:44.294 --> 00:01:47.063
Why do you say that?
00:01:47.063 --> 00:01:48.431
Sean: i think there's really two reasons why we need apologetics.
00:01:48.431 --> 00:01:50.633
One is for people like yourself who are looking at the christian
00:01:50.633 --> 00:01:54.037
Faith and asking, is this worth following?
00:01:54.037 --> 00:01:57.240
Do i believe this? is it credible?
00:01:57.240 --> 00:01:59.108
Is there evidence?
00:01:59.108 --> 00:02:00.610
Do i have to like check my brain at the door to become
00:02:00.610 --> 00:02:02.645
A christian?
00:02:02.645 --> 00:02:04.013
But then people like me, so you mentioned my father, josh
00:02:04.013 --> 00:02:06.249
Mcdowell, the books that he had written, christianity just made
00:02:06.249 --> 00:02:09.619
Sense to me until in the mid-90s, i'm in college, get on
00:02:09.619 --> 00:02:13.289
The internet, and a lot of the atheist web was built upon
00:02:13.289 --> 00:02:17.293
Responding to the books that you mentioned at the beginning.
00:02:17.293 --> 00:02:20.563
Chapter by chapter, kirk, they had doctors,
00:02:20.563 --> 00:02:23.466
Lawyers, historians.
00:02:23.466 --> 00:02:24.934
I had never seen anything like that.
00:02:24.934 --> 00:02:26.469
Kirk: just like blowing holes or trying to blow holes in your
00:02:26.469 --> 00:02:29.272
Dad's books.
00:02:29.272 --> 00:02:30.607
Sean: yeah, that's the idea.
00:02:30.607 --> 00:02:31.975
And i'm, you know, maybe 19-years-old and i'm just
00:02:31.975 --> 00:02:33.476
Figuring out what is this internet thing, and i come
00:02:33.476 --> 00:02:35.311
Across this.
00:02:35.311 --> 00:02:36.646
And it was kind of the first time in my life i was like, i
00:02:36.646 --> 00:02:39.549
Could be wrong about this.
00:02:39.549 --> 00:02:40.917
I know my dad means well, but he could be mistaken.
00:02:40.917 --> 00:02:43.253
And these are really smart people that are raising
00:02:43.253 --> 00:02:45.622
Good questions.
00:02:45.622 --> 00:02:47.123
And so i had to work through that, and i had people who
00:02:47.123 --> 00:02:48.858
Helped me in my life.
00:02:48.858 --> 00:02:50.193
But those on the outside looking in need to know that this
00:02:50.193 --> 00:02:53.663
Makes sense.
00:02:53.663 --> 00:02:54.998
But then there's people on the inside who get challenged in
00:02:54.998 --> 00:02:57.700
Their faith and have to figure out, okay, wait a minute, am i
00:02:57.700 --> 00:03:00.503
Going to believe this?
00:03:00.503 --> 00:03:01.838
Does this make sense? is there evidence?
00:03:01.838 --> 00:03:04.540
So you might say, for lack of a better term, apologetics has
00:03:04.540 --> 00:03:06.776
Kind of a defensive and an offensive posture.
00:03:06.776 --> 00:03:09.946
Not offending people, of course, but just going out, reaching
00:03:09.946 --> 00:03:13.049
People, and showing that this is true.
00:03:13.049 --> 00:03:15.218
Kirk: yeah, and just for clarity, give people a working
00:03:15.218 --> 00:03:18.755
Definition of apologetics.
00:03:18.755 --> 00:03:20.490
It's not apologizing for your faith.
00:03:20.490 --> 00:03:22.292
What is it?
00:03:22.292 --> 00:03:23.660
Sean: in 1 peter 3:15, it says, "sanctify christ as lord in
00:03:23.660 --> 00:03:26.262
Your heart."
00:03:26.262 --> 00:03:27.597
"always be ready with an answer for the hope within.
00:03:27.597 --> 00:03:30.800
Give it with gentleness and respect."
00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:33.670
What's translated as reason or answer in the greek, apologia,
00:03:33.670 --> 00:03:38.174
Is where we get the word apologetics.
00:03:38.174 --> 00:03:40.777
So it simply means given an answer or reason for why we
00:03:40.777 --> 00:03:44.113
Think god exists, jesus rose from the grave,
00:03:44.113 --> 00:03:45.882
The bible is true.
00:03:45.882 --> 00:03:47.216
And it's not just a christian word.
00:03:47.216 --> 00:03:49.485
So when plato writes a defense of socrates on trial, he calls
00:03:49.485 --> 00:03:53.456
It an apology.
00:03:53.456 --> 00:03:56.059
You can have apologetics for a political figure, you can have
00:03:56.059 --> 00:03:58.895
Apologetics for a product, but apologetics is not, biblically
00:03:58.895 --> 00:04:03.366
Speaking, just for authors like yourself, speakers like
00:04:03.366 --> 00:04:06.869
Yourself, hosts like yourself, professors like me.
00:04:06.869 --> 00:04:09.906
It's actually all christians are called to be ready with an
00:04:09.906 --> 00:04:13.042
Answer for the hope that we have in jesus.
00:04:13.042 --> 00:04:15.545
Kirk: yeah, i love it.
00:04:15.545 --> 00:04:17.013
You say in this book that apologetics needs to be deployed
00:04:17.013 --> 00:04:22.618
With a couple of things, love and humility.
00:04:22.618 --> 00:04:26.389
Why is it important to remind people of that?
00:04:26.389 --> 00:04:29.659
Sean: i think for a few reasons.
00:04:29.659 --> 00:04:30.993
Sometimes people in the church, let's just say have a bad
00:04:30.993 --> 00:04:34.063
Experience with an apologist, where we've been arrogant, we've
00:04:34.063 --> 00:04:37.967
Been harsh, we've lacked love, and then so write all of
00:04:37.967 --> 00:04:41.337
Apologetics off because of that.
00:04:41.337 --> 00:04:43.873
So that's one reason just internally to convince people we
00:04:43.873 --> 00:04:46.642
Need to be ready with an answer.
00:04:46.642 --> 00:04:48.077
Kirk: clubbing people with truth and a bad attitude, right?
00:04:48.077 --> 00:04:50.513
Sean: doesn't help.
00:04:50.513 --> 00:04:51.914
And it's happened for sure, but look, i was at an event at a
00:04:51.914 --> 00:04:55.151
Huge school in california.
00:04:55.151 --> 00:04:56.953
There's about 800 college students there, and i mention
00:04:56.953 --> 00:05:00.189
This because i had a dialogue with an atheist for about
00:05:00.189 --> 00:05:03.393
90 minutes.
00:05:03.393 --> 00:05:04.761
We went back and forth, there was no name-calling, there was
00:05:04.761 --> 00:05:07.230
No one-upmanship.
00:05:07.230 --> 00:05:08.598
It was a genuine conversation: point, counterpoint,
00:05:08.598 --> 00:05:12.602
And one of the biggest comments we heard
00:05:12.602 --> 00:05:14.437
Was like, wow, a christian and an atheist
00:05:14.437 --> 00:05:16.038
Can sit down, talk to each other.
00:05:16.038 --> 00:05:18.708
There was respect afterwards, you know, we kind of exchanged
00:05:18.708 --> 00:05:21.544
Numbers in the sense of like, if you're back out in my neck of
00:05:21.544 --> 00:05:23.980
The woods, let's connect.
00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:25.314
Like, literally built a friend.
00:05:25.314 --> 00:05:27.083
And there's 800 college students sitting there trying to make
00:05:27.083 --> 00:05:30.353
Sense, are miracles possible?
00:05:30.353 --> 00:05:31.988
Did jesus rise in the grave?
00:05:31.988 --> 00:05:33.489
Does god exist?
00:05:33.489 --> 00:05:34.857
Is the soul real?
00:05:34.857 --> 00:05:36.426
So apologetics, so that tells me two things.
00:05:36.426 --> 00:05:39.195
Number one, people today, even though we hear this kind of
00:05:39.195 --> 00:05:42.398
Postmodern culture aren't interested in truth,
00:05:42.398 --> 00:05:45.101
That's nonsense.
00:05:45.101 --> 00:05:46.469
I work with students.
00:05:46.469 --> 00:05:47.804
They're asking big questions about life, but they also
00:05:47.804 --> 00:05:50.473
Resonate with kindness, with humility, with respect.
00:05:50.473 --> 00:05:55.077
There's an openness in this generation and i really think
00:05:55.077 --> 00:05:57.547
This says we want to know, and if you're sincere.
00:05:57.547 --> 00:06:00.783
And you know, the other thing just, i think kindness and
00:06:00.783 --> 00:06:04.020
Humility shows is it shows a level of confidence in what
00:06:04.020 --> 00:06:07.990
We believe.
00:06:07.990 --> 00:06:09.325
We don't have to freak out.
00:06:09.325 --> 00:06:10.960
I've got another atheist buddy who was telling me that he
00:06:10.960 --> 00:06:13.262
Watches my stuff on youtube.
00:06:13.262 --> 00:06:14.630
I was like, why do you watch my stuff?
00:06:14.630 --> 00:06:15.965
And he goes, well, you don't freak out, you just talk
00:06:15.965 --> 00:06:17.467
To people, and you listen to people.
00:06:17.467 --> 00:06:19.735
He goes, that tells me there's a certain confidence in what
00:06:19.735 --> 00:06:23.506
You believe.
00:06:23.506 --> 00:06:24.874
And when we love people and we're humble, i think that
00:06:24.874 --> 00:06:28.144
Sometimes comes across.
00:06:28.144 --> 00:06:29.479
Kirk: now, you also say in your book that many young people are
00:06:29.479 --> 00:06:33.883
Just leaving the church, they're running away from the church.
00:06:33.883 --> 00:06:38.955
Why is this happening?
00:06:38.955 --> 00:06:41.057
Sean: one reason, actually one of the largest studies i'm aware
00:06:41.057 --> 00:06:43.493
Of, this was 3,500 people, 35 years, 4 generations, and they
00:06:43.493 --> 00:06:49.198
Talked about why kids left the church and left the faith in
00:06:49.198 --> 00:06:52.735
This case.
00:06:52.735 --> 00:06:54.203
The number one reason somebody would stay was a quote "warm
00:06:54.203 --> 00:06:58.407
Relationship with the father."
00:06:58.407 --> 00:07:00.743
Number one, sociologically speaking.
00:07:00.743 --> 00:07:03.112
There's something about relationships when relationships
00:07:03.112 --> 00:07:05.781
Are broken and people see hypocrisy, drives them away from
00:07:05.781 --> 00:07:10.219
The church.
00:07:10.219 --> 00:07:11.587
So there's a relational component, and there's an
00:07:11.587 --> 00:07:13.389
Apologetics component.
00:07:13.389 --> 00:07:14.924
I talk with so many people who deconstructed their faith to the
00:07:14.924 --> 00:07:19.028
Point of deconversion.
00:07:19.028 --> 00:07:20.530
And one of the things they say over and over again is, you
00:07:20.530 --> 00:07:23.432
Didn't help me see that this was true.
00:07:23.432 --> 00:07:25.535
And when i had questions and doubts, people freaked out, told
00:07:25.535 --> 00:07:28.237
Me not to answer them, told me, just have faith.
00:07:28.237 --> 00:07:30.039
Kirk: don't ask why.
00:07:30.039 --> 00:07:31.374
Sean: a friend of mine, kirk, i wish i was making this up, but a
00:07:31.374 --> 00:07:33.376
Friend of mine, literally youth pastor said to him, he said,
00:07:33.376 --> 00:07:35.444
Just sleep on your bible, and that will, like by osmosis fix
00:07:35.444 --> 00:07:38.981
Your doubts.
00:07:38.981 --> 00:07:40.316
Kirk: are you kidding me.
00:07:40.316 --> 00:07:41.651
Sean: i am not making that up because we're afraid
00:07:41.651 --> 00:07:43.019
Of questions.
00:07:43.019 --> 00:07:44.420
So a lot of people in the church aren't encountering christians
00:07:44.420 --> 00:07:47.823
Who know what they believe and why they believe it.
00:07:47.823 --> 00:07:50.526
So when they ask questions, we get threatened by it.
00:07:50.526 --> 00:07:54.063
But when we know and have confidence, the bible's
00:07:54.063 --> 00:07:56.999
Really true.
00:07:56.999 --> 00:07:58.334
I'm not threatened by questions that people ask.
00:07:58.334 --> 00:08:00.570
Kirk: yeah, that's so good and we wanna get there.
00:08:00.570 --> 00:08:03.372
If you wanna get to that place of i not only believe this, i'm
00:08:03.372 --> 00:08:06.375
Not just throwing truth claims out there and like, kind of run
00:08:06.375 --> 00:08:09.245
Away before anybody asks a question, but i welcome your
00:08:09.245 --> 00:08:12.048
Questions and i can tell you the answers so i can help you see
00:08:12.048 --> 00:08:14.517
What i see that it's actually true, we're not making this
00:08:14.517 --> 00:08:17.153
Stuff up, we're not bluffing.
00:08:17.153 --> 00:08:18.487
And that's why books like this are so important and what you're
00:08:18.487 --> 00:08:20.890
Doing is so important.
00:08:20.890 --> 00:08:23.092
Help me understand the relationship between the gospel
00:08:23.092 --> 00:08:27.730
And real world relationships, and a little clearer is, is it
00:08:27.730 --> 00:08:34.370
The power of the gospel that saves people, or is it the
00:08:34.370 --> 00:08:39.108
Gospel plus a really nice friend who's kind and caring that's
00:08:39.108 --> 00:08:45.081
Going to like push it over the line?
00:08:45.081 --> 00:08:47.216
Because we don't wanna add to the gospel, and that's what some
00:08:47.216 --> 00:08:50.286
Churches do our entire life.
00:08:50.286 --> 00:08:51.654
We don't wanna upgrade the gospel with a little bit more
00:08:51.654 --> 00:08:53.923
Love, a little more sugar than, you know, the last generation.
00:08:53.923 --> 00:08:58.127
Because the gospel is the gospel, it's the power of god.
00:08:58.127 --> 00:09:02.398
So what relationship does a relationship have to the gospel
00:09:02.398 --> 00:09:06.869
That makes it more effective?
00:09:06.869 --> 00:09:08.771
Sean: always makes me nervous when anybody says, is it the
00:09:08.771 --> 00:09:11.574
Gospel plus.
00:09:11.574 --> 00:09:12.908
Kirk: right.
00:09:12.908 --> 00:09:14.243
Sean: it's the gospel through.
00:09:14.243 --> 00:09:15.611
So it's the gospel that changed somebody's life.
00:09:15.611 --> 00:09:17.747
But god uses arguments and evidence like in your life, he
00:09:17.747 --> 00:09:22.084
Uses experiences in other people's lives.
00:09:22.084 --> 00:09:25.287
He uses relationships.
00:09:25.287 --> 00:09:27.390
So paul talks about giving the gospel and his own life
00:09:27.390 --> 00:09:30.326
In thessalonians.
00:09:30.326 --> 00:09:31.861
So it's both, but the gospel alone is what saves.
00:09:31.861 --> 00:09:36.632
Kirk: so can you give us some examples of how churches in our
00:09:36.632 --> 00:09:41.037
Modern culture today have tried to upgrade the gospel and make
00:09:41.037 --> 00:09:44.740
It more palatable, or more relevant, or more appropriate
00:09:44.740 --> 00:09:50.813
For kids today.
00:09:50.813 --> 00:09:52.915
Sean: well, i'll give you an example of a youth pastor that i
00:09:52.915 --> 00:09:55.584
Talked with.
00:09:55.584 --> 00:09:56.919
He actually had left his faith, came to an apologetics
00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:58.621
Conference my dad and i were speaking at.
00:09:58.621 --> 00:10:01.457
And i was told by the pastor that he was coming and was
00:10:01.457 --> 00:10:05.995
Leaving his faith, and he talked him into coming to an
00:10:05.995 --> 00:10:07.730
Apologetics conference.
00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:09.065
I said, would he be willing to have lunch with me?
00:10:09.065 --> 00:10:10.533
And he agreed.
00:10:10.533 --> 00:10:11.867
So we sat there for 45 minutes, kirk, and i'm doing my best to
00:10:11.867 --> 00:10:14.336
Answer his questions.
00:10:14.336 --> 00:10:15.705
I'm narrating the back of my mind, i'm like, i'm just not
00:10:15.705 --> 00:10:17.339
Helping this guy at all.
00:10:17.339 --> 00:10:18.674
Like, these are terrible answers.
00:10:18.674 --> 00:10:20.009
I'm thinking, what am i doing?
00:10:20.009 --> 00:10:21.343
Maybe i need my dad or something.
00:10:21.343 --> 00:10:22.678
Like, what's happening?
00:10:22.678 --> 00:10:24.046
And i just didn't feel like i was doing a good job.
00:10:24.046 --> 00:10:26.248
And at the end, i said, you know what, i've heard a story of a
00:10:26.248 --> 00:10:29.752
Lot of people who would leave the faith.
00:10:29.752 --> 00:10:33.122
Tell me the story when you came to faith.
00:10:33.122 --> 00:10:36.992
Tell me that moment you knew you were a sinner and you needed
00:10:36.992 --> 00:10:41.964
Jesus to forgive you.
00:10:41.964 --> 00:10:43.833
I'll never forget it, kirk.
00:10:43.833 --> 00:10:45.234
He looks at me and goes, oh, i didn't come to jesus because i
00:10:45.234 --> 00:10:48.471
Was a sinner in need of grace.
00:10:48.471 --> 00:10:50.873
I came because i was hurting and told that jesus would make me
00:10:50.873 --> 00:10:55.878
Feel better.
00:10:55.878 --> 00:10:57.546
That's a false gospel.
00:10:57.546 --> 00:11:00.216
And because he's likable and articulate, we put him on stage
00:11:00.216 --> 00:11:02.785
And make him a youth pastor.
00:11:02.785 --> 00:11:04.787
That's an example of the gospel plus something.
00:11:04.787 --> 00:11:07.823
In fact, that wasn't even the gospel plus, that lacked the
00:11:07.823 --> 00:11:10.459
Gospel and just said, jesus is about fixing your depression,
00:11:10.459 --> 00:11:13.863
Fixing your loneliness.
00:11:13.863 --> 00:11:15.231
No, jesus is about forgiveness of our sins so we can know god.
00:11:15.231 --> 00:11:19.535
But then as we live as god wants us to live, have the holy
00:11:19.535 --> 00:11:23.439
Spirit, have the relationships, then we can begin to flourish as
00:11:23.439 --> 00:11:27.810
Individual human beings.
00:11:27.810 --> 00:11:29.311
Kirk: isn't that interesting?
00:11:29.311 --> 00:11:30.679
And if you hadn't taken the time to ask him that, you may not
00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.548
Have known thinking he really does have legitimate questions
00:11:32.548 --> 00:11:35.751
That can't be answered.
00:11:35.751 --> 00:11:37.119
No, he was not rebelling against the truth of the gospel, he was
00:11:37.119 --> 00:11:39.522
Rebelling against the false promise that someone gave him
00:11:39.522 --> 00:11:43.159
That if he did the church thing or the jesus thing, that he
00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.495
Would feel better from his pain.
00:11:46.495 --> 00:11:48.798
And that's not the life-changing,
00:11:48.798 --> 00:11:51.100
Heart-transforming power of the gospel.
00:11:51.100 --> 00:11:53.169
Sean: it's not, it's not.
00:11:53.169 --> 00:11:56.272
Kirk: we're gonna talk more with sean right after the break, and
00:11:56.272 --> 00:11:58.674
Then later in the program we're gonna be joined by gavin ortlund
00:11:58.674 --> 00:12:01.610
To share the ways that we can remain calm in the midst
00:12:01.610 --> 00:12:05.414
Of disagreements.
00:12:05.414 --> 00:12:06.749
So stay with us.
00:12:06.749 --> 00:12:08.083
Gavin: i think if there's just one simple point to
00:12:08.083 --> 00:12:09.618
Emphasize, it's the power of love in the midst of
00:12:09.618 --> 00:12:11.821
A disagreement.
00:12:11.821 --> 00:12:13.155
♪♪♪
00:12:13.155 --> 00:12:18.006
♪♪♪
00:12:18.694 --> 00:12:24.233
Kirk: we're back with sean mcdowell.
00:12:25.734 --> 00:12:28.270
Okay, sean, a couple of terms here that i've heard.
00:12:28.270 --> 00:12:31.841
I want you to help me understand them.
00:12:31.841 --> 00:12:33.876
What's the difference between objective truth and
00:12:33.876 --> 00:12:36.779
Subjective truth?
00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:38.480
Sean: subject is think of a preference like ice
00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.317
Cream flavor.
00:12:41.317 --> 00:12:42.651
You like chocolate, i like vanilla.
00:12:42.651 --> 00:12:44.587
There's no real right or wrong best flavor.
00:12:44.587 --> 00:12:48.891
It's a pure opinion, taste.
00:12:48.891 --> 00:12:51.861
Objective, so subjective keyword is subject.
00:12:51.861 --> 00:12:55.664
The person is the basis.
00:12:55.664 --> 00:12:57.132
If you like chocolate, since you're the subject, that's true
00:12:57.132 --> 00:13:00.936
For you, so to speak.
00:13:00.936 --> 00:13:02.838
Objective claims are about the object.
00:13:02.838 --> 00:13:04.940
So it's about the way the world is in itself independent of what
00:13:04.940 --> 00:13:10.312
Somebody believes.
00:13:10.312 --> 00:13:11.814
So if i said kobe bryant was fun to watch.
00:13:11.814 --> 00:13:15.484
Well, that's kind of a subjective claim.
00:13:15.484 --> 00:13:17.453
Someone might not like thinking basketball.
00:13:17.453 --> 00:13:18.921
But if i had said kobe bryant was 6 foot 7, that's an
00:13:18.921 --> 00:13:22.591
Objective claim about kobe bryant.
00:13:22.591 --> 00:13:26.562
Kirk: that's really important for us to understand because
00:13:26.562 --> 00:13:30.332
Sometimes we'll throw out claims and someone will say to me,
00:13:30.332 --> 00:13:34.270
Well, that's just subjective.
00:13:34.270 --> 00:13:36.505
You know, that that's your truth, but my truth is this.
00:13:36.505 --> 00:13:39.541
And like you said, there are some things that are subjective.
00:13:39.541 --> 00:13:42.344
But when we're talking about the resurrection, did jesus really
00:13:42.344 --> 00:13:46.515
Rise from the grave?
00:13:46.515 --> 00:13:48.684
Is the bible the inerrant word of god, or is it not?
00:13:48.684 --> 00:13:53.222
Like those are huge things.
00:13:53.222 --> 00:13:54.590
It doesn't matter how i feel about them, or even whether or
00:13:54.590 --> 00:13:58.460
Not i believe them.
00:13:58.460 --> 00:13:59.828
They're either true or they're not true, right?
00:13:59.828 --> 00:14:02.464
Sean: that's exactly right.
00:14:02.464 --> 00:14:03.832
Paul writes in 1 corinthians 15, if jesus is not risen, our faith
00:14:03.832 --> 00:14:09.071
Is in vain.
00:14:09.071 --> 00:14:10.506
In other words, all of christianity rests upon a
00:14:10.506 --> 00:14:13.342
Single, testable, historical event.
00:14:13.342 --> 00:14:17.479
That's why the first messages of the apostles in acts, they're
00:14:17.479 --> 00:14:22.251
Like, this guy jesus died, he was buried, rose on the third
00:14:22.251 --> 00:14:26.055
Day, and we were witnesses of this, we saw.
00:14:26.055 --> 00:14:30.259
They're appealing to that this is a fact that you can know.
00:14:30.259 --> 00:14:34.330
And so the teachings of jesus, their value is really tied to
00:14:34.330 --> 00:14:38.534
Whether or not jesus is god, whether he rose from the grave.
00:14:38.534 --> 00:14:41.537
Kirk: yeah, and what i love about what you just said is that
00:14:41.537 --> 00:14:45.741
Being a christian and believing, the fundamental part of
00:14:45.741 --> 00:14:51.380
Christianity is not just saying, the sermon on the mount works
00:14:51.380 --> 00:14:55.818
For me, right?
00:14:55.818 --> 00:14:57.553
Because people can say like, hey, bro, hey, whatever works
00:14:57.553 --> 00:15:00.456
For you, that's great.
00:15:00.456 --> 00:15:01.824
And you know, like, my deal has been vegetarianism, you know, or
00:15:01.824 --> 00:15:06.762
It's been hinduism, or it's been something that has made me feel
00:15:06.762 --> 00:15:10.666
Good, it's changed my life, i'm a new man.
00:15:10.666 --> 00:15:12.901
And i'm going, well, look, you might like eating vegetables,
00:15:12.901 --> 00:15:16.372
And maybe hinduism gives you a sense of peace in the storm, but
00:15:16.372 --> 00:15:21.543
Regardless of how we feel, jesus christ rose from the
00:15:21.543 --> 00:15:25.581
Dead, right?
00:15:25.581 --> 00:15:26.949
Like, buddha didn't do that, and, you know, vegetables can't
00:15:26.949 --> 00:15:30.719
Forgive your sins.
00:15:30.719 --> 00:15:32.054
At the end of the day, if there's a man who came out of a
00:15:32.054 --> 00:15:36.058
Grave, then what he has to say is super important.
00:15:36.058 --> 00:15:39.194
That's an objective truth that if we decide that, that's
00:15:39.194 --> 00:15:42.598
A game-changer.
00:15:42.598 --> 00:15:44.199
Sean: what's interesting about jesus is every faith system
00:15:44.199 --> 00:15:48.437
Like, wants a piece of jesus.
00:15:48.437 --> 00:15:50.739
He's the only religious figure that transcends his own faith.
00:15:50.739 --> 00:15:54.410
So you think about this, muslims consider jesus a virgin born,
00:15:54.410 --> 00:15:59.548
Miracle-working, sinless prophet.
00:15:59.548 --> 00:16:02.017
Buddhists would say that he's enlightened.
00:16:02.017 --> 00:16:04.019
Hindus would say he's a guru.
00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:06.355
New ages would appeal to him.
00:16:06.355 --> 00:16:07.956
Even many atheists would say they respect his
00:16:07.956 --> 00:16:09.825
Moral teachings.
00:16:09.825 --> 00:16:11.193
He transcends the category of religious figures in terms of
00:16:11.193 --> 00:16:14.797
His impact and his influence.
00:16:14.797 --> 00:16:16.899
But jesus didn't claim to be a god, he claimed to be god in
00:16:16.899 --> 00:16:20.669
Human flesh, made it clear in john 8 and in other passages, i
00:16:20.669 --> 00:16:25.240
Think, throughout the rest of the gospels.
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.242
What did he point towards in terms of his identity?
00:16:27.242 --> 00:16:29.778
He said, i'm gonna tear down this temple, and i'm gonna build
00:16:29.778 --> 00:16:32.681
It back up.
00:16:32.681 --> 00:16:34.016
I'm gonna give you the sign of jonah.
00:16:34.016 --> 00:16:37.786
You think about the impact of jesus, the life of jesus, the
00:16:37.786 --> 00:16:41.223
Teachings of jesus, all point back towards, depend upon the
00:16:41.223 --> 00:16:45.694
Resurrection itself.
00:16:45.694 --> 00:16:47.296
Either it's true or it's false, and jesus invites us to use our
00:16:47.296 --> 00:16:51.633
Minds to investigate and look at that.
00:16:51.633 --> 00:16:54.536
That sets christianity apart from any other belief system.
00:16:54.536 --> 00:16:57.739
Kirk: yeah, absolutely.
00:16:57.739 --> 00:16:59.408
Yeah, it's not the moral teachings of jesus that actually
00:16:59.408 --> 00:17:02.711
Makes me a christian.
00:17:02.711 --> 00:17:05.180
It's actually believing the gospel about who he is and why
00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:08.617
He came, and what he did, and that he rose from the grave.
00:17:08.617 --> 00:17:12.187
I mean, that's amazing.
00:17:12.187 --> 00:17:13.522
You can benefit from buddhism without really believing in
00:17:13.522 --> 00:17:16.158
Those facts about buddha.
00:17:16.158 --> 00:17:17.693
You just kind of sort of take the philosophy and you
00:17:17.693 --> 00:17:19.695
Digest it.
00:17:19.695 --> 00:17:21.063
But jesus, it's about who he is.
00:17:21.063 --> 00:17:23.098
Christianity doesn't exist apart from his identity.
00:17:23.098 --> 00:17:26.535
Sean: that's right, that's why it's called christianity, it's
00:17:26.535 --> 00:17:29.138
About christ.
00:17:29.138 --> 00:17:30.472
Kirk: that's right.
00:17:30.472 --> 00:17:31.840
Sean: right, it's the person of jesus.
00:17:31.840 --> 00:17:33.175
That's why the most important question is, who do you say that
00:17:33.175 --> 00:17:35.811
I am?
00:17:35.811 --> 00:17:37.146
Kirk: that's right. sean: it's the person of jesus.
00:17:37.146 --> 00:17:38.514
Kirk: that's right.
00:17:38.514 --> 00:17:39.882
So in your book, "apologetics for an ever-changing culture,"
00:17:39.882 --> 00:17:42.551
You and other contributors speak on topics like lgbtqia, gender
00:17:42.551 --> 00:17:48.390
Fluidity, race, abortion, new age, transgender issues.
00:17:48.390 --> 00:17:52.528
Is there a theme with all of those topics that connects them?
00:17:52.528 --> 00:17:57.599
Is there a thread?
00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:59.635
Sean: you know what, interestingly enough, here's
00:17:59.635 --> 00:18:01.637
What i would say.
00:18:01.637 --> 00:18:02.971
Hopefully it answers your question.
00:18:02.971 --> 00:18:04.339
One of the chapters that's in the back of the book, once it
00:18:04.339 --> 00:18:07.042
Was done, i thought, maybe i should have put this in the
00:18:07.042 --> 00:18:09.444
Front of the book.
00:18:09.444 --> 00:18:10.812
It's by a friend of mine, jonathan morrow, and it's about
00:18:10.812 --> 00:18:13.182
Biblical authority.
00:18:13.182 --> 00:18:15.751
And he really says this is the primary issue in the church
00:18:15.751 --> 00:18:19.655
Today and in the culture.
00:18:19.655 --> 00:18:21.390
I think the big question tying all those issues together
00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:24.593
Is authority.
00:18:24.593 --> 00:18:25.928
So i have a friend who's in kind of a new age, and he really
00:18:25.928 --> 00:18:29.331
Believes in reincarnation, and considers some of the evidence
00:18:29.331 --> 00:18:32.868
For that and other kind of new age practices, those are
00:18:32.868 --> 00:18:36.972
Authoritative to him.
00:18:36.972 --> 00:18:38.807
For some people and some of the lives that you mentioned, my
00:18:38.807 --> 00:18:41.610
Feelings are authoritative for me.
00:18:41.610 --> 00:18:44.613
Well, for me, it's the person of jesus, 'cause he rose in the
00:18:44.613 --> 00:18:47.583
Grave like you said, and he talks about the scriptures being
00:18:47.583 --> 00:18:50.886
The word of god and being authoritative.
00:18:50.886 --> 00:18:53.689
So i think really what ties a lot of these issues together is
00:18:53.689 --> 00:18:57.025
The question of authority and the rejection of
00:18:57.025 --> 00:19:00.395
Biblical authority.
00:19:00.395 --> 00:19:01.997
Kirk: i believe that lee strobel has a section inside of your
00:19:01.997 --> 00:19:05.133
Book, is that right?
00:19:05.133 --> 00:19:06.501
Sean: he does, yeah.
00:19:06.501 --> 00:19:07.836
Kirk: he does, and lee is amazing, i just love him, "case
00:19:07.836 --> 00:19:10.072
For christ," "case for a creator," "case for christmas."
00:19:10.072 --> 00:19:12.407
I read it every christmas time. he's got a case for everything.
00:19:12.407 --> 00:19:15.143
Sean: he does, he does.
00:19:15.143 --> 00:19:16.478
Kirk: i'd hate to be his wife in an argument with him because
00:19:16.478 --> 00:19:18.347
He's got a case for everything.
00:19:18.347 --> 00:19:21.350
And he talks about how so many people want to come to god, but
00:19:21.350 --> 00:19:27.389
They want to come to god on their own terms.
00:19:27.389 --> 00:19:30.425
Is that just another way of addressing this authority issue?
00:19:30.425 --> 00:19:34.463
People want to come to god the way that they want to come
00:19:34.463 --> 00:19:38.767
To god.
00:19:38.767 --> 00:19:40.269
Sean: so this is an interview in the book, i interviewed certain
00:19:40.269 --> 00:19:42.571
Experts and lee is like one of the leading evangelists in the
00:19:42.571 --> 00:19:46.808
World and apologists.
00:19:46.808 --> 00:19:48.644
And i asked the question what he considers the biggest objection
00:19:48.644 --> 00:19:51.613
To god.
00:19:51.613 --> 00:19:52.948
And he says that he used to think it was primarily the
00:19:52.948 --> 00:19:56.218
Problem of evil, which is typically my answer.
00:19:56.218 --> 00:19:58.854
He said, but the more i do this, i'm convinced that for so many
00:19:58.854 --> 00:20:01.823
People, they don't want to come to god, they don't want to
00:20:01.823 --> 00:20:05.761
Believe in god, it's a heart issue.
00:20:05.761 --> 00:20:08.096
I've heard it said that the heart of the problem is the
00:20:08.096 --> 00:20:10.999
Problem of the heart, and i think that's right.
00:20:10.999 --> 00:20:13.468
So god's made himself sufficiently known for those
00:20:13.468 --> 00:20:16.138
With eyes to see and ears to hear, but if i don't want to
00:20:16.138 --> 00:20:20.375
Believe in god, i can find ways outside of that.
00:20:20.375 --> 00:20:22.978
In fact, you and i were chatting about the gospel of john, and
00:20:22.978 --> 00:20:25.547
It's all about the miracles that jesus does.
00:20:25.547 --> 00:20:28.350
And at one point, the pharisees are like, what are we gonna do
00:20:28.350 --> 00:20:31.219
With this?
00:20:31.219 --> 00:20:32.587
He's doing so many signs, and people are believing in him.
00:20:32.587 --> 00:20:35.390
And i read that, i think, well, one thing you could do is
00:20:35.390 --> 00:20:38.293
Believe yourself.
00:20:38.293 --> 00:20:39.661
I mean he raised lazarus and he's god, you should believe.
00:20:39.661 --> 00:20:42.230
But they're blinded because it's threatening their authority and
00:20:42.230 --> 00:20:46.101
Their power within, you know, the system in which they live.
00:20:46.101 --> 00:20:49.571
So i think lee is right, that's the heart of it, is it's a
00:20:49.571 --> 00:20:53.141
Hard issue.
00:20:53.141 --> 00:20:54.476
Kirk: it was obvious inside of my heart as a 17-year-old kid
00:20:54.476 --> 00:20:56.945
When i was working on "growing pains" that i wanted the gospel
00:20:56.945 --> 00:20:59.448
To be true, but i was scared to death that it wasn't true.
00:20:59.448 --> 00:21:03.418
Yeah, so apologetics helped me that way.
00:21:03.418 --> 00:21:06.321
I just wanted to know that some atheist wasn't gonna like grab a
00:21:06.321 --> 00:21:11.093
Hold of the cord of truth and unravel my whole
00:21:11.093 --> 00:21:14.930
Christian tapestry.
00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:16.765
And i wanted to know, like, what is that skeleton in the closet
00:21:16.765 --> 00:21:21.136
That pastors don't want anyone to drag out, you know?
00:21:21.136 --> 00:21:25.407
And it's some piece of evidence.
00:21:25.407 --> 00:21:27.642
And, man, i feel like i've looked at all the closets i can
00:21:27.642 --> 00:21:30.312
Find and there aren't any.
00:21:30.312 --> 00:21:32.581
There's mysteries.
00:21:32.581 --> 00:21:33.982
Sean: i agree.
00:21:33.982 --> 00:21:35.317
Kirk: but i haven't found anything where someone's gone
00:21:35.317 --> 00:21:36.885
Like, oh, you know, there's the contradiction right there, or
00:21:36.885 --> 00:21:41.022
There's the thing that never could happen, science proves it.
00:21:41.022 --> 00:21:43.992
There are really good answers to really hard questions.
00:21:43.992 --> 00:21:47.596
Sean: i agree with that.
00:21:47.596 --> 00:21:48.930
You know, there's a proverb that says, "the purposes in a man's
00:21:48.930 --> 00:21:50.832
Heart are deep, but a person of wisdom draws it out."
00:21:50.832 --> 00:21:55.604
In my experience, people can have a lot of things that give
00:21:55.604 --> 00:21:58.173
Them hesitancy about christianity or christians
00:21:58.173 --> 00:22:00.475
And believing.
00:22:00.475 --> 00:22:01.843
It could be a moral issue, it could be an intellectual issue
00:22:01.843 --> 00:22:05.046
As a part of it, could be a relational issue.
00:22:05.046 --> 00:22:07.816
Kirk: trauma issue from the past.
00:22:07.816 --> 00:22:09.151
Sean: it could be trauma and emotional, a lot of issues.
00:22:09.151 --> 00:22:11.420
But at the heart of it, jesus is like, "pick up your cross and
00:22:11.420 --> 00:22:14.956
Follow me."
00:22:14.956 --> 00:22:16.391
That's the heart of it.
00:22:16.391 --> 00:22:17.759
I mean, even the demons, i was just talking to my son yesterday
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.529
About this.
00:22:20.529 --> 00:22:21.863
Demons have perfect theology.
00:22:21.863 --> 00:22:24.032
They have perfect theology.
00:22:24.032 --> 00:22:25.434
So they believe in their minds, but they don't believe in
00:22:25.434 --> 00:22:28.036
Their hearts.
00:22:28.036 --> 00:22:29.404
But back to your point, the more i do apologetics, i'm a
00:22:29.404 --> 00:22:33.608
Professor of apologetics, i've done this about 25 years, the
00:22:33.608 --> 00:22:36.545
More confident i am that it's true, but also the more
00:22:36.545 --> 00:22:40.081
Questions that i have.
00:22:40.081 --> 00:22:41.817
And i think both of those can be true at the same time.
00:22:41.817 --> 00:22:45.287
I just want my students in many ways to leave my class when they
00:22:45.287 --> 00:22:49.024
Take it and realize if i don't have the answer, there is an
00:22:49.024 --> 00:22:53.195
Answer if i'm willing to find it and seek it.
00:22:53.195 --> 00:22:56.398
You're probably not the first person asking that question.
00:22:56.398 --> 00:23:00.635
So it's true, but it's okay to have questions, it's okay to
00:23:00.635 --> 00:23:03.371
Have doubts.
00:23:03.371 --> 00:23:04.706
But when you do that doubt, go find an answer, 'cause there is
00:23:04.706 --> 00:23:07.008
One like you said, if you're willing to find it.
00:23:07.008 --> 00:23:09.878
Kirk: so in closing, what's something that you would like
00:23:09.878 --> 00:23:13.582
For christians to do differently after reading your book?
00:23:13.582 --> 00:23:18.153
Sean: i would say two things.
00:23:18.153 --> 00:23:19.688
Number one, learn what you believe, and why you believe it,
00:23:19.688 --> 00:23:22.858
And take advantage of the opportunities that already are
00:23:22.858 --> 00:23:26.962
Around you.
00:23:26.962 --> 00:23:28.330
This is not a new program that says you gotta do this four
00:23:28.330 --> 00:23:31.500
Hours a week, go out and evangelize.
00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:33.101
If you want to do that, go for it, awesome.
00:23:33.101 --> 00:23:35.737
What i'm trying to help people say is in your normal life, in
00:23:35.737 --> 00:23:38.573
Your family, in your work, there are opportunities around you,
00:23:38.573 --> 00:23:42.811
Online, if you just think differently, and look for
00:23:42.811 --> 00:23:45.947
Different opportunities, and learn how to do this, we are all
00:23:45.947 --> 00:23:49.818
Ambassadors for christ.
00:23:49.818 --> 00:23:51.520
So i guess in some ways, i just want to shift people's thinking
00:23:51.520 --> 00:23:54.556
To be looking for opportunities to share, and talk, and give
00:23:54.556 --> 00:23:58.226
Them basic skills how to do so.
00:23:58.226 --> 00:24:01.029
Kirk: yeah, maybe like that guy doesn't believe what i believe,
00:24:01.029 --> 00:24:05.467
But he's not the enemy, he's my opportunity.
00:24:05.467 --> 00:24:07.569
Sean: oh my goodness.
00:24:07.569 --> 00:24:08.904
Kirk: and this book will show you and help you to make the
00:24:08.904 --> 00:24:11.606
Most of that opportunity.
00:24:11.606 --> 00:24:12.941
Sean: that's the idea.
00:24:12.941 --> 00:24:14.309
Kirk: thank you so much, bro, great to talk with you
00:24:14.309 --> 00:24:15.977
In person.
00:24:15.977 --> 00:24:17.312
After the break, gavin ortlund will join us to share valuable
00:24:17.312 --> 00:24:20.081
Insights on ways to better communicate and learn from one
00:24:20.081 --> 00:24:23.685
Another in the middle of tough conversations.
00:24:23.685 --> 00:24:27.088
Stay with us.
00:24:27.088 --> 00:24:28.423
♪♪♪
00:24:28.423 --> 00:24:32.894
♪♪♪
00:24:33.419 --> 00:24:39.225
Kirk: gavin ortlund is the president of truth unites and
00:24:40.493 --> 00:24:44.063
Theologian in residence at immanuel nashville.
00:24:44.063 --> 00:24:46.833
He has a phd in historical theology and he's the author of
00:24:46.833 --> 00:24:50.436
Numerous academic and popular articles, as well as nine books.
00:24:50.436 --> 00:24:55.141
His most recent book, "the art of disagreeing: how to keep calm
00:24:55.141 --> 00:24:59.178
And stay friends in hard conversations."
00:24:59.178 --> 00:25:02.448
It seeks to help christians cultivate civil dialogue in the
00:25:02.448 --> 00:25:06.252
Middle of disagreements.
00:25:06.252 --> 00:25:08.321
So great to have you on "takeaways."
00:25:08.321 --> 00:25:09.889
Gavin: glad to be here, thanks for having me.
00:25:09.889 --> 00:25:11.424
Kirk: well, this is a book that i need to read.
00:25:11.424 --> 00:25:13.292
This will keep my marriage going and keep me friends with
00:25:13.292 --> 00:25:15.761
My kids.
00:25:15.761 --> 00:25:17.430
Gavin: yes, it gets into the most basic of relationships, and
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:20.132
It's something we all need.
00:25:20.132 --> 00:25:21.501
Kirk: why is it so hard, do you think, to stay calm when we
00:25:21.501 --> 00:25:24.871
Disagree with people?
00:25:24.871 --> 00:25:26.339
Gavin: that is the big question, and i think there's a
00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:28.574
Lot about human psychology that goes into that, and i studied
00:25:28.574 --> 00:25:31.844
That a little bit to write the book.
00:25:31.844 --> 00:25:33.813
But even the other level is just our culture right now.
00:25:33.813 --> 00:25:37.083
It seems as though all of the pressures are toward if i
00:25:37.083 --> 00:25:40.987
Disagree with you, then i am good and you are evil.
00:25:40.987 --> 00:25:45.258
So the person on the other side of the dispute isn't just wrong,
00:25:45.258 --> 00:25:49.028
But they are evil.
00:25:49.028 --> 00:25:51.264
They're the enemy to be denounced and i actually feel
00:25:51.264 --> 00:25:54.867
That this is a pretty severe problem in our society, and it
00:25:54.867 --> 00:25:57.937
Affects the church, and those of us who follow jesus, we want to
00:25:57.937 --> 00:26:01.340
Show a better way, we want to show what it looks like to be
00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:04.243
Firm in disagreement, to stand against evil in the way jesus
00:26:04.243 --> 00:26:08.247
Himself did.
00:26:08.247 --> 00:26:09.615
Jesus was not a pushover, but to show love and to show that
00:26:09.615 --> 00:26:13.486
There's a better way than simply denouncing and demeaning the
00:26:13.486 --> 00:26:17.456
People we disagree with.
00:26:17.456 --> 00:26:19.091
So very practical short book, as you mentioned, hoping it
00:26:19.091 --> 00:26:21.727
Serves people.
00:26:21.727 --> 00:26:23.095
Kirk: i can relate to what you're saying because as a
00:26:23.095 --> 00:26:25.097
Person in the public square, i'll get asked my opinion on
00:26:25.097 --> 00:26:28.367
Particular issues, political issues, religious issues,
00:26:28.367 --> 00:26:30.570
Cultural issues.
00:26:30.570 --> 00:26:31.904
And if you say something that the other party disagrees with,
00:26:31.904 --> 00:26:35.374
Man, they just want to pounce on you, they're waiting for you to
00:26:35.374 --> 00:26:38.477
Just step in the trap so that they can, you know, they wanna
00:26:38.477 --> 00:26:41.714
Tar and feather you, cancel you publicly.
00:26:41.714 --> 00:26:44.016
And that does translate over into personal relationships
00:26:44.016 --> 00:26:47.386
Where i start doing that with my wife, or i start doing that with
00:26:47.386 --> 00:26:50.022
Business partners, or my own children, rather than doing what
00:26:50.022 --> 00:26:53.426
You're advocating for, which is remaining calm, staying friends,
00:26:53.426 --> 00:26:57.863
Not returning evil for evil, but responding with a gentle answer
00:26:57.863 --> 00:27:02.868
And like bringing the rpms down so that we can have a better
00:27:02.868 --> 00:27:06.472
Understanding, right?
00:27:06.472 --> 00:27:07.807
Gavin: yes, and i think one thing that helps me think about
00:27:07.807 --> 00:27:09.809
This is triaging different disagreements.
00:27:09.809 --> 00:27:13.412
So triage means ranking.
00:27:13.412 --> 00:27:15.514
Some issues are more urgent than others, other things are
00:27:15.514 --> 00:27:18.618
Less important.
00:27:18.618 --> 00:27:19.952
So i want to leave space for some issues to be so severe and
00:27:19.952 --> 00:27:23.189
So important that they call for maybe not a gentle response.
00:27:23.189 --> 00:27:27.159
I mean there are some issues where we really need to be firm
00:27:27.159 --> 00:27:30.162
In standing against evil.
00:27:30.162 --> 00:27:32.198
But the key is wisdom to distinguish those from the
00:27:32.198 --> 00:27:35.735
Garden variety conversations we're having every day.
00:27:35.735 --> 00:27:38.304
I think this is a huge, and my heart on this is i really think
00:27:38.304 --> 00:27:41.907
Christians need shepherding and encouragement in this area where
00:27:41.907 --> 00:27:45.845
We can so often treat every disagreement, as though it's,
00:27:45.845 --> 00:27:49.915
You know, the truth itself is at stake.
00:27:49.915 --> 00:27:52.351
Kirk: that's right.
00:27:52.351 --> 00:27:53.686
Why do you say in your book that disagreement itself is not
00:27:53.686 --> 00:27:57.456
The problem?
00:27:57.456 --> 00:27:58.824
Gavin: yeah, i think, so c.s. lewis
00:27:58.824 --> 00:28:00.292
Was a part of this literary group and j.r.r.
00:28:00.292 --> 00:28:03.295
Tolkien was another person there and there's a great biography
00:28:03.295 --> 00:28:06.866
Of c.s. lewis talking about how they would
00:28:06.866 --> 00:28:08.601
Approach disagreements.
00:28:08.601 --> 00:28:10.403
And honestly, c.s. lewis
00:28:10.403 --> 00:28:12.538
Talked about how he enjoyed them and how they went
00:28:12.538 --> 00:28:15.841
Into the friendships.
00:28:15.841 --> 00:28:17.209
He said if we agreed all the time, we wouldn't have a good
00:28:17.209 --> 00:28:19.912
Time together and we wouldn't have as deep of a friendship.
00:28:19.912 --> 00:28:23.015
Part of the value of this is that we don't see everything the
00:28:23.015 --> 00:28:26.285
Same way.
00:28:26.285 --> 00:28:27.653
That's just a function of our humanity.
00:28:27.653 --> 00:28:29.522
We're all finite, we are all looking from a different
00:28:29.522 --> 00:28:31.724
Standpoint, we're not going to agree on everything, and
00:28:31.724 --> 00:28:33.926
That's normal.
00:28:33.926 --> 00:28:35.294
The problem isn't that we will have a different opinion.
00:28:35.294 --> 00:28:39.098
It's how we approach that, and how we treat that, and what we
00:28:39.098 --> 00:28:42.902
Do in light of that, and where that can escalate to a point
00:28:42.902 --> 00:28:46.706
Where i'm now seeing you as the enemy, or i get heated and we
00:28:46.706 --> 00:28:51.977
Lose our friendship because we can't agree on everything.
00:28:51.977 --> 00:28:54.580
And i think we see this right now happening.
00:28:54.580 --> 00:28:56.615
We've seen so much fragmentation in the church, outside of the
00:28:56.615 --> 00:29:00.019
Church, in political dialogue throughout society.
00:29:00.019 --> 00:29:03.889
It seems as though we're losing our ability to just have a
00:29:03.889 --> 00:29:06.992
Civil disagreement.
00:29:06.992 --> 00:29:09.395
And i want to continue to clarify this, that i'm not
00:29:09.395 --> 00:29:12.231
Saying we should just be nice all the time.
00:29:12.231 --> 00:29:14.467
I hope people experience the book as a kind of freeing sort
00:29:14.467 --> 00:29:17.770
Of how-to book.
00:29:17.770 --> 00:29:19.105
Kinda lean in, and relax, and lean in, and be true to your
00:29:19.105 --> 00:29:23.042
Convictions, and be true to your conscience.
00:29:23.042 --> 00:29:25.511
But also, i think if there's just one simple point to
00:29:25.511 --> 00:29:28.047
Emphasize, it's the power of love in the midst of
00:29:28.047 --> 00:29:30.483
A disagreement.
00:29:30.483 --> 00:29:31.817
For the other person to feel that i care for them, even while
00:29:31.817 --> 00:29:35.187
We don't see something the same way, that they will know i wish
00:29:35.187 --> 00:29:39.291
Well upon them, i want the best for them, and i'm showing the
00:29:39.291 --> 00:29:41.827
Love of christ from my heart to them, and they'll feel that.
00:29:41.827 --> 00:29:44.430
Kirk: man, this is so applicable.
00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:45.865
This is so relatable to all of us.
00:29:45.865 --> 00:29:48.033
I love how also in your book, you talk about how some people
00:29:48.033 --> 00:29:52.037
Respond to disagreements either like hedgehogs or like rhinos.
00:29:52.037 --> 00:29:56.876
Now, neither one of those is a, that's not a good picture of a
00:29:56.876 --> 00:30:01.080
Hedgehog or a rhino.
00:30:01.080 --> 00:30:02.948
Can you unpack that for us?
00:30:02.948 --> 00:30:04.283
Gavin: sure, this is a theory in social psychology that
00:30:04.283 --> 00:30:08.354
Human beings tend to respond differently when we
00:30:08.354 --> 00:30:11.223
Feel threatened.
00:30:11.223 --> 00:30:12.591
And this is one reason why disagreements are so challenging
00:30:12.591 --> 00:30:15.427
To navigate is we often will feel threatened by
00:30:15.427 --> 00:30:18.264
A disagreement.
00:30:18.264 --> 00:30:19.632
Someone is advocating for a different perspective, we can
00:30:19.632 --> 00:30:22.568
Feel a little bit attacked by that, even if they don't intend
00:30:22.568 --> 00:30:26.105
For that.
00:30:26.105 --> 00:30:27.473
Hedgehogs are animals that tend to retreat when they
00:30:27.473 --> 00:30:30.309
Feel threatened.
00:30:30.309 --> 00:30:31.677
Rhinos tend to charge, they are aggressive.
00:30:31.677 --> 00:30:35.381
And this isn't to put everyone in a neat box, not everyone fits
00:30:35.381 --> 00:30:39.485
Neatly on one side or the other.
00:30:39.485 --> 00:30:40.953
But most of us have a temptation, most of us, when we
00:30:40.953 --> 00:30:44.657
Feel threatened, either will charge or we will retreat.
00:30:44.657 --> 00:30:48.527
Kirk: i know some chargers and i know some retreaters.
00:30:48.527 --> 00:30:51.964
Gavin: and both can be deadly.
00:30:51.964 --> 00:30:53.532
I mean, you know, there's a time that's the thing i think the
00:30:53.532 --> 00:30:57.570
Error we most immediately will see is charging, and we realize,
00:30:57.570 --> 00:31:01.407
We've all done this, where we have a disagreement, we get
00:31:01.407 --> 00:31:04.310
Heated, and then the next day we kind of think i should have been
00:31:04.310 --> 00:31:08.080
Calmer in the midst of it.
00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:09.415
But i think also a temptation in the other way is to withdraw and
00:31:09.415 --> 00:31:13.786
Fail to speak up.
00:31:13.786 --> 00:31:15.154
And sometimes christ has put us in a situation so we can lean in
00:31:15.154 --> 00:31:18.791
And with love, and with words of healing, speak up and enter into
00:31:18.791 --> 00:31:23.128
That disagreement.
00:31:23.128 --> 00:31:24.730
Kirk: yeah, you also say that kindness and dialogue is
00:31:24.730 --> 00:31:28.667
Very powerful.
00:31:28.667 --> 00:31:31.403
Why do you think that being kind in an argument, rather than
00:31:31.403 --> 00:31:35.174
Owning the person, is more powerful?
00:31:35.174 --> 00:31:38.811
Gavin: in ancient greek rhetoric, they used to speak
00:31:38.811 --> 00:31:41.714
About different aspects of persuasion.
00:31:41.714 --> 00:31:44.283
And to my surprise, i discovered that the most powerful element
00:31:44.283 --> 00:31:48.320
To persuade another person is trust.
00:31:48.320 --> 00:31:51.223
It's not how good your arguments are and your use of logic, it's
00:31:51.223 --> 00:31:54.994
Not even your use of emotion, though both of those things are
00:31:54.994 --> 00:31:57.897
Components as well.
00:31:57.897 --> 00:31:59.899
The most powerful act to help persuade someone is if they
00:31:59.899 --> 00:32:04.236
Trust you, if they think that you are a good person, you care
00:32:04.236 --> 00:32:08.474
About their well-being, and so forth.
00:32:08.474 --> 00:32:10.442
So kindness is so powerful in the midst of disagreements
00:32:10.442 --> 00:32:13.545
Because it can help build trust.
00:32:13.545 --> 00:32:15.014
And we can't force that, and we don't want to just posture this.
00:32:15.014 --> 00:32:18.584
But if in your heart sincerely, you're wishing well upon the
00:32:18.584 --> 00:32:21.787
Other person, usually they can tell and they can pick up on
00:32:21.787 --> 00:32:25.524
That, especially over time in the process of a relationship.
00:32:25.524 --> 00:32:28.861
And so kindness is one of the most powerful ways to make
00:32:28.861 --> 00:32:31.430
Progress, it builds trust, it lowers the temperature, it
00:32:31.430 --> 00:32:34.466
Brings more light, and less heat.
00:32:34.466 --> 00:32:37.770
I've just discovered this in my own experience.
00:32:37.770 --> 00:32:40.039
I have a ministry on youtube where i'll do dialogues and
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:42.574
Debates, and i try to go into it, i do it very imperfectly,
00:32:42.574 --> 00:32:46.745
But i try to go into it wishing well upon the other party.
00:32:46.745 --> 00:32:50.749
I'll pray for them, even if i disagree with them, i'll desire
00:32:50.749 --> 00:32:55.154
For their good.
00:32:55.154 --> 00:32:56.722
In my heart, i'll try to push them toward heaven and say, you
00:32:56.722 --> 00:32:59.591
Know, lord bless this person, right?
00:32:59.591 --> 00:33:01.860
And i've discovered that when you do that, it doesn't just
00:33:01.860 --> 00:33:03.896
Make it more pleasant, though it also does that.
00:33:03.896 --> 00:33:06.932
It also makes it clearer where the disagreement lies.
00:33:06.932 --> 00:33:11.036
It tends to clear away the smoke and just bring more clarity in
00:33:11.036 --> 00:33:14.239
The midst of the clash.
00:33:14.239 --> 00:33:15.574
And that's just something, you know, it's not formulaic, but
00:33:15.574 --> 00:33:18.377
It's something for us all to consider and it's a disagreement
00:33:18.377 --> 00:33:21.213
We can have, is how can i wish well upon this person and how
00:33:21.213 --> 00:33:26.185
Might that help us make progress even in understanding where the
00:33:26.185 --> 00:33:29.955
Differences lie.
00:33:29.955 --> 00:33:31.557
Kirk: do you think that there is a time and a place for sarcasm
00:33:31.557 --> 00:33:35.828
Or satire in a disagreement, or is that just passive aggressive,
00:33:35.828 --> 00:33:41.734
Snarling at somebody?
00:33:41.734 --> 00:33:43.302
Gavin: okay, this question comes up a lot, and people will
00:33:43.302 --> 00:33:46.138
Always point to elijah in 1 kings 18, when he's mocking the
00:33:46.138 --> 00:33:51.210
Prophets of baal for why baal isn't around.
00:33:51.210 --> 00:33:54.880
And we can also look at harsh language from jesus to the
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.883
Pharisees, from paul to his opponents.
00:33:57.883 --> 00:34:01.053
So i think what i would want to say is there is a place for
00:34:01.053 --> 00:34:04.189
This, but this is not the general mode that christians
00:34:04.189 --> 00:34:09.428
Should engage in.
00:34:09.428 --> 00:34:10.763
When we look at the epistles, where the apostles are giving
00:34:10.763 --> 00:34:13.365
Instruction for how we are to speak, when you think of the
00:34:13.365 --> 00:34:15.768
Sermon on the mount, jesus says, "whoever says you fool is in
00:34:15.768 --> 00:34:19.471
Danger of the fires of hell."
00:34:19.471 --> 00:34:21.507
So our lord is telling us, i mean, how many times do we say
00:34:21.507 --> 00:34:24.643
"you fool" to someone on social media?
00:34:24.643 --> 00:34:26.578
Kirk: yeah.
00:34:26.578 --> 00:34:27.946
Gavin: so there is a place for sarcasm, there is a place
00:34:27.946 --> 00:34:30.215
For strong denunciation, that's why i was trying to speak
00:34:30.215 --> 00:34:33.052
Earlier about triaging issues.
00:34:33.052 --> 00:34:34.787
There's a time, but we need to be so careful because that is
00:34:34.787 --> 00:34:39.091
Not the general way we should talk to each other.
00:34:39.091 --> 00:34:42.628
Kirk: so is there a point in a conversation where disagreement
00:34:42.628 --> 00:34:47.966
Is clear that you know it's time to withdraw from that
00:34:47.966 --> 00:34:52.037
Conversation rather than continue to talk with them?
00:34:52.037 --> 00:34:57.009
Gavin: this is such an important and good question
00:34:57.009 --> 00:34:59.411
Because we'll all have moments where we will need to withdraw
00:34:59.411 --> 00:35:02.981
From a conversation for everyone's benefit because we
00:35:02.981 --> 00:35:06.051
Can tell this is not going anywhere good.
00:35:06.051 --> 00:35:08.320
And this is why all of this is very practical.
00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:11.156
You know, we're trying to be realistic about how life
00:35:11.156 --> 00:35:13.292
Actually works and we want to be authentic, and not just--
00:35:13.292 --> 00:35:17.329
Again, we're not just being nice here, we want to be a genuine
00:35:17.329 --> 00:35:19.598
Human being and show love to someone.
00:35:19.598 --> 00:35:22.101
Sometimes that means, i think, setting a boundary.
00:35:22.101 --> 00:35:24.603
So one thing i want to emphasize is that if the person we're
00:35:24.603 --> 00:35:27.639
Disagreeing with is really actively harming us, that's a
00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:31.276
Different circumstance and it's appropriate for us to take steps
00:35:31.276 --> 00:35:34.379
To protect ourselves.
00:35:34.379 --> 00:35:35.848
And so i don't want people to hear the call to love as though
00:35:35.848 --> 00:35:38.717
That just means making yourself a punching bag.
00:35:38.717 --> 00:35:41.887
But in the general mode of conversation, i think one basic
00:35:41.887 --> 00:35:45.023
Question that helps me is just to ask, is it realistic to make
00:35:45.023 --> 00:35:49.828
Progress at this moment?
00:35:49.828 --> 00:35:51.797
And we've all been in conversations where you realize,
00:35:51.797 --> 00:35:53.632
You know, the answer is no.
00:35:53.632 --> 00:35:55.868
Kirk: yeah, i've reached a point of diminishing returns.
00:35:55.868 --> 00:35:58.470
I should probably stop.
00:35:58.470 --> 00:35:59.972
Gavin: and maybe it's late at night and everyone's grumpy.
00:35:59.972 --> 00:36:02.941
Or maybe it's, you could tell tempers are up and if you just
00:36:02.941 --> 00:36:06.378
Approach it at a different time.
00:36:06.378 --> 00:36:07.713
And unfortunately, there are people who are so combative, and
00:36:07.713 --> 00:36:13.585
I think we need to just be honest and say there are some
00:36:13.585 --> 00:36:15.587
People who are so malicious that it's also okay to have a
00:36:15.587 --> 00:36:18.524
Boundary and not continuing conversation when the only
00:36:18.524 --> 00:36:22.227
Result will be bad because it's just not possible to make
00:36:22.227 --> 00:36:26.798
Progress with a particular person or in a
00:36:26.798 --> 00:36:28.534
Particular context.
00:36:28.534 --> 00:36:29.868
That's part of life.
00:36:29.868 --> 00:36:32.004
Kirk: well, i'm gonna continue to do my best to get into a
00:36:32.004 --> 00:36:34.239
Fight with gavin before the end of this interview.
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:36.542
Is it possible to disagree in a healthy way and still
00:36:36.542 --> 00:36:39.011
Be friends?
00:36:39.011 --> 00:36:40.345
And what do i do to get my point across when i feel like i'm not
00:36:40.345 --> 00:36:42.781
Being heard?
00:36:42.781 --> 00:36:44.149
We're gonna answer these questions and more right after
00:36:44.149 --> 00:36:45.784
The break, so don't go away.
00:36:45.784 --> 00:36:47.419
♪♪♪
00:36:47.419 --> 00:36:52.324
♪♪♪
00:36:52.994 --> 00:36:57.565
Kirk: we're back with gavin ortlund sharing ways that we can
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.336
Remain calm in challenging conversations of disagreement.
00:37:02.336 --> 00:37:07.241
You know, i entirely disagree with your whole thesis of this
00:37:07.241 --> 00:37:10.611
Book, and you know what, we should just arm wrestle
00:37:10.611 --> 00:37:13.247
About it.
00:37:13.247 --> 00:37:14.582
Gavin: hey, let's do it.
00:37:14.582 --> 00:37:15.950
That's actually the way you solve disagreements.
00:37:15.950 --> 00:37:20.287
Kirk: gavin, you say in your book that much conflict and
00:37:20.287 --> 00:37:22.657
Suffering stems from poor listening.
00:37:22.657 --> 00:37:26.894
What are some steps that we can take to become better listeners?
00:37:26.894 --> 00:37:30.631
Gavin: i'm so glad you asked about this because i've become
00:37:30.631 --> 00:37:33.134
Convinced that listening skills are one of the most undervalued
00:37:33.134 --> 00:37:37.638
Skills just throughout society and even in the church.
00:37:37.638 --> 00:37:40.541
The book of proverbs has a lot to say about listening.
00:37:40.541 --> 00:37:43.577
So much conflict boils down to a failure to listen well.
00:37:43.577 --> 00:37:47.615
One basic thing that i have grown to appreciate is really
00:37:47.615 --> 00:37:51.986
Attending to the details of what someone is saying and
00:37:51.986 --> 00:37:55.189
Considering their background experiences and especially pain
00:37:55.189 --> 00:37:58.893
Or anxiety that may be underneath their opinion.
00:37:58.893 --> 00:38:02.630
So i might be experiencing something that's just a strong
00:38:02.630 --> 00:38:04.865
Disagreement and i'm hearing their opinion, i'm seeing the
00:38:04.865 --> 00:38:07.802
Content of what they're saying, and i need to remember, okay,
00:38:07.802 --> 00:38:10.504
What have they been through?
00:38:10.504 --> 00:38:12.173
What have they suffered?
00:38:12.173 --> 00:38:13.507
What are they afraid of?
00:38:13.507 --> 00:38:14.875
What's underneath that?
00:38:14.875 --> 00:38:16.210
And now i'm listening to that as well, and i'm looking for the
00:38:16.210 --> 00:38:19.613
Little clues of what that might be.
00:38:19.613 --> 00:38:21.515
We might still disagree, but i might have a better
00:38:21.515 --> 00:38:24.785
Understanding of where they're coming from and what's really
00:38:24.785 --> 00:38:26.987
Motivating them.
00:38:26.987 --> 00:38:28.355
Maybe there's trauma in their background.
00:38:28.355 --> 00:38:30.424
A lot of people right now, anxiety and depression is
00:38:30.424 --> 00:38:33.327
Pretty high.
00:38:33.327 --> 00:38:34.729
Maybe there is despair, or maybe there's deep fear that's
00:38:34.729 --> 00:38:37.465
Underneath the disagreement.
00:38:37.465 --> 00:38:38.833
I want to listen carefully because that will help me
00:38:38.833 --> 00:38:42.169
Interact with them in a more christlike way, but also it will
00:38:42.169 --> 00:38:45.139
Just help me know how to speak to them and how to understand
00:38:45.139 --> 00:38:48.676
Where they're coming from.
00:38:48.676 --> 00:38:50.277
Kirk: i think that's so valuable, and i know that when
00:38:50.277 --> 00:38:53.914
I'm in a disagreement with somebody, or even when i'm not
00:38:53.914 --> 00:38:56.717
Disagreeing with them, i'm not so much looking for an answer to
00:38:56.717 --> 00:39:01.222
A problem, i'm largely looking to be understood by the person
00:39:01.222 --> 00:39:07.528
I'm talking to, so that i know that my ideas are not crazy, or
00:39:07.528 --> 00:39:13.400
Just that i'm not alone in this thing, and someone who listens,
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:19.840
They become your favorite person to talk to, even if they're not
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:23.210
A genius with solutions to your problems.
00:39:23.210 --> 00:39:27.114
And if they disagree but still value your opinion, they become
00:39:27.114 --> 00:39:31.886
Your friend.
00:39:31.886 --> 00:39:33.220
Gavin: right.
00:39:33.220 --> 00:39:34.555
Oh, and isn't it a happy experience to have a friend and
00:39:34.555 --> 00:39:38.325
You genuinely feel heard, and understood, and seen by
00:39:38.325 --> 00:39:42.062
That person.
00:39:42.062 --> 00:39:43.430
And sadly, in the other direction, it's such a sad thing
00:39:43.430 --> 00:39:46.934
When you have someone and, you know, if you ever had an
00:39:46.934 --> 00:39:50.104
Experience where someone, you can tell they're just
00:39:50.104 --> 00:39:51.505
Not listening.
00:39:51.505 --> 00:39:52.873
And you may be trying to get something across and they're so
00:39:52.873 --> 00:39:55.075
Busy and they're moving on with their day.
00:39:55.075 --> 00:39:57.411
We all experience being listened to as an act of love and as an
00:39:57.411 --> 00:40:00.781
Act of care.
00:40:00.781 --> 00:40:02.116
And so this is one simple way to show the love of christ.
00:40:02.116 --> 00:40:04.185
I actually think with the amount of pain around us in our
00:40:04.185 --> 00:40:07.521
Culture, simply noticing people can open up incredible
00:40:07.521 --> 00:40:11.792
Ministry opportunities.
00:40:11.792 --> 00:40:13.194
And i've had experiences where you just ask a simple
00:40:13.194 --> 00:40:16.030
Follow-up question.
00:40:16.030 --> 00:40:17.364
Sometimes you don't even need that much.
00:40:17.364 --> 00:40:18.732
Just a little bit of, hey, i noticed you said this, i was
00:40:18.732 --> 00:40:21.368
Just wondering if there's any ways i can pray for you.
00:40:21.368 --> 00:40:23.804
And all of a sudden you're into a conversation where you get to
00:40:23.804 --> 00:40:26.574
Direct someone to jesus.
00:40:26.574 --> 00:40:28.275
And it starts with, i noticed this.
00:40:28.275 --> 00:40:30.544
So just, you know, eyes out for the little details.
00:40:30.544 --> 00:40:33.414
Kirk: you also say in your book, questions are far more powerful
00:40:33.414 --> 00:40:37.218
Than statements in advancing the truth in a conversation.
00:40:37.218 --> 00:40:41.455
Can you give some examples?
00:40:41.455 --> 00:40:43.324
Gavin: i find that when i'm in a discussion and it's a
00:40:43.324 --> 00:40:47.461
Disagreement or a debate, i need to be proactive to
00:40:47.461 --> 00:40:50.664
Remember this.
00:40:50.664 --> 00:40:51.999
And i'll even have specific moments where i'll be about to
00:40:51.999 --> 00:40:54.568
Make a statement and then i'll pause and i'll say, could i turn
00:40:54.568 --> 00:40:58.806
This into a question in a way that will feel authentic to what
00:40:58.806 --> 00:41:02.176
I'm actually saying, it's not a formula.
00:41:02.176 --> 00:41:04.144
Again, don't want to be manufactured about it.
00:41:04.144 --> 00:41:06.847
But the other party will often experience a question as less
00:41:06.847 --> 00:41:10.584
Threatening and less confrontative.
00:41:10.584 --> 00:41:12.720
And these simple matters of tact and how we express our
00:41:12.720 --> 00:41:16.290
Convictions, i have a lot of patience for that.
00:41:16.290 --> 00:41:19.460
I know some people think this is overly sensitive or something
00:41:19.460 --> 00:41:22.529
Like that.
00:41:22.529 --> 00:41:23.864
I think the way we communicate to other people is so important
00:41:23.864 --> 00:41:27.434
That even paying attention to the little details like this so
00:41:27.434 --> 00:41:30.337
The question is a way to put the other person on their heels a
00:41:30.337 --> 00:41:35.843
Little bit less, but it's also a way to buy us time to draw out
00:41:35.843 --> 00:41:39.380
Their understanding.
00:41:39.380 --> 00:41:40.714
So i've had this happen where asking a question, the other
00:41:40.714 --> 00:41:44.218
Person comes to agree with what i was going to say.
00:41:44.218 --> 00:41:47.621
But i didn't need to say it, i could just put a question
00:41:47.621 --> 00:41:50.357
Out there.
00:41:50.357 --> 00:41:51.725
Now that doesn't always happen, unfortunately, but it's one way
00:41:51.725 --> 00:41:53.994
To try to make progress, it's just a little bit
00:41:53.994 --> 00:41:55.429
Less confrontational.
00:41:55.429 --> 00:41:56.797
Kirk: yeah, and i see jesus doing that in the scriptures
00:41:56.797 --> 00:41:59.967
Where they would ask him a question and rather than just
00:41:59.967 --> 00:42:03.203
Sometimes he'd quote scripture, but other times he would ask a
00:42:03.203 --> 00:42:05.139
Question back.
00:42:05.139 --> 00:42:06.507
I've got a question for you.
00:42:06.507 --> 00:42:07.841
I'll answer yours after you answer mine.
00:42:07.841 --> 00:42:10.644
What skills have you found have helped you to be a better
00:42:10.644 --> 00:42:14.882
Listener and better understand people with
00:42:14.882 --> 00:42:16.817
Different perspectives?
00:42:16.817 --> 00:42:19.086
Gavin: yeah, one basic, i mean this is gonna sound kind of
00:42:19.086 --> 00:42:22.122
Basic, but it's the first thing that comes to my mind when you
00:42:22.122 --> 00:42:24.325
Ask that, and i do think it bears repeating.
00:42:24.325 --> 00:42:26.493
It's just the value of patience as you're cultivating a
00:42:26.493 --> 00:42:28.996
Friendship to not have a snap judgment upon another person.
00:42:28.996 --> 00:42:32.900
The truth is, everyone is very complicated, everyone has a
00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:36.470
Story, people don't fit into a little cartoon box.
00:42:36.470 --> 00:42:40.541
We're all complicated and we all appreciate it when someone else
00:42:40.541 --> 00:42:44.011
Sees our complexity.
00:42:44.011 --> 00:42:45.479
And so the simple value of being patient in how i might
00:42:45.479 --> 00:42:50.117
Categorize someone, how i might interpret them, not putting them
00:42:50.117 --> 00:42:53.954
Into a box, not saying, well, they hold to this view or they
00:42:53.954 --> 00:42:56.857
Belong to this group and therefore i'm gonna clump them
00:42:56.857 --> 00:42:59.793
In with everything else around them.
00:42:59.793 --> 00:43:01.528
But i'm gonna respect their particularity and the little
00:43:01.528 --> 00:43:03.931
Nuances that go into them, and that takes time to build
00:43:03.931 --> 00:43:07.968
Friendship to try to draw them out.
00:43:07.968 --> 00:43:11.605
A simple thing, but yeah, patience has tremendous value.
00:43:11.605 --> 00:43:16.176
Kirk: yeah, i can think of examples of that, oh, you're
00:43:16.176 --> 00:43:18.078
A democrat.
00:43:18.078 --> 00:43:19.413
Well, you're just like all those people.
00:43:19.413 --> 00:43:20.781
You're a republican, you're like all those people.
00:43:20.781 --> 00:43:22.783
You're a climate change guy, oh my goodness.
00:43:22.783 --> 00:43:25.085
Well, i know everything i need to know about you, you know.
00:43:25.085 --> 00:43:29.323
Or whatever it might be.
00:43:29.323 --> 00:43:30.924
Even within the church, you have this theological view.
00:43:30.924 --> 00:43:33.427
You're from that traditional background.
00:43:33.427 --> 00:43:36.463
And we can write people off or assume that we know everything
00:43:36.463 --> 00:43:39.166
There is to know about them when, as you said, they've got
00:43:39.166 --> 00:43:42.002
A story.
00:43:42.002 --> 00:43:43.370
They came to those positions, or they maybe don't really hold
00:43:43.370 --> 00:43:46.407
Those positions, but they think they do because someone told
00:43:46.407 --> 00:43:49.576
Them that that's the biblical view and you can maybe have a
00:43:49.576 --> 00:43:53.180
Conversation that helps persuade them to come around to seeing it
00:43:53.180 --> 00:43:56.917
A different way.
00:43:56.917 --> 00:43:58.252
Gavin: oh yeah, this is something that is deep in my
00:43:58.252 --> 00:44:01.355
Heart because i've experienced it, i've watched it with others.
00:44:01.355 --> 00:44:04.124
You know, earlier we talked about cancel culture.
00:44:04.124 --> 00:44:06.693
This is something that happens in the church and it happens in
00:44:06.693 --> 00:44:10.064
All different directions on all kinds of different issues where
00:44:10.064 --> 00:44:13.100
If you step out of line on one issue, then you can be sort of
00:44:13.100 --> 00:44:17.404
Branded as the enemy.
00:44:17.404 --> 00:44:18.906
And what happens is a kind of groupthink where people are not
00:44:18.906 --> 00:44:22.342
Allowed to just study things and work through, and we can even
00:44:22.342 --> 00:44:25.779
Get to a point where we don't have any patience for people to
00:44:25.779 --> 00:44:30.217
Just process where they're at and you have to be perfectly
00:44:30.217 --> 00:44:33.587
Safe in all your views.
00:44:33.587 --> 00:44:35.022
So again, without taking off the table that there are some issues
00:44:35.022 --> 00:44:37.958
That are important where we need to kind of have a vigorous
00:44:37.958 --> 00:44:41.228
Approach to them: nonetheless, as the church, let's be a place
00:44:41.228 --> 00:44:45.332
Where we are kind, where we're human, where we're
00:44:45.332 --> 00:44:48.569
Understanding, where we give people grace and love, where we
00:44:48.569 --> 00:44:51.972
Treat people according to their full humanity as god has made
00:44:51.972 --> 00:44:55.943
Them, we listen, all of those things.
00:44:55.943 --> 00:44:57.744
It's basic, but i'm saying it just because i think it's so
00:44:57.744 --> 00:44:59.847
Important right now.
00:44:59.847 --> 00:45:01.281
Kirk: gavin, you also say in your book that the art of
00:45:01.281 --> 00:45:04.318
Persuasion is biblical.
00:45:04.318 --> 00:45:07.387
So how do we understand persuasion over and
00:45:07.387 --> 00:45:11.892
Against manipulation?
00:45:11.892 --> 00:45:13.427
Gavin: okay, persuasion can be done or can be thought of in
00:45:13.427 --> 00:45:16.997
A way as though you're manipulating someone, you're
00:45:16.997 --> 00:45:19.833
Just trying to steer them exactly where you want them.
00:45:19.833 --> 00:45:21.268
Kirk: yeah, you're just kind of doing it without them
00:45:21.268 --> 00:45:22.736
Realizing it.
00:45:22.736 --> 00:45:24.071
Gavin: yeah, and it can be condescending in that sense.
00:45:24.071 --> 00:45:27.474
But you know, while we see that as a danger, i think in the book
00:45:27.474 --> 00:45:33.113
Of proverbs we do have a lot about persuasive speech and the
00:45:33.113 --> 00:45:37.184
Value of this.
00:45:37.184 --> 00:45:38.519
And i think if we all can think of a person like someone that we
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:41.155
Love who's considering a path that is very destructive to
00:45:41.155 --> 00:45:45.325
Themselves or to others, we can also immediately see it's gonna
00:45:45.325 --> 00:45:48.529
Be a good thing to persuade them to steer away from that path.
00:45:48.529 --> 00:45:53.033
Jesus was persuasive, we should desire to be persuasive.
00:45:53.033 --> 00:45:56.770
So i think just a key distinguishing ingredient there
00:45:56.770 --> 00:46:00.440
Between manipulation and persuasion is just the simple
00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:03.877
Fact of love that i'm doing this as an act of care for you and
00:46:03.877 --> 00:46:08.615
Also a sincerity.
00:46:08.615 --> 00:46:10.117
You think of the way paul defends his ministry in 1 and 2
00:46:10.117 --> 00:46:14.354
Thessalonians when he's being accused of being a charlatan,
00:46:14.354 --> 00:46:17.858
Basically, and he's talking about sincerity.
00:46:17.858 --> 00:46:20.427
He's saying, you know, we speak with sincere speech.
00:46:20.427 --> 00:46:23.263
This is how we should approach persuasion as followers
00:46:23.263 --> 00:46:25.832
Of jesus.
00:46:25.832 --> 00:46:27.167
We're firmly and sincerely persuaded of the truth and
00:46:27.167 --> 00:46:31.038
Therefore from that standpoint and from a true heart, we're
00:46:31.038 --> 00:46:34.341
Seeking to speak out and persuade others.
00:46:34.341 --> 00:46:36.643
And when we do that, you know, persuasion is something we
00:46:36.643 --> 00:46:39.246
Should all aim for.
00:46:39.246 --> 00:46:40.614
I think we should all aim to be as persuasive as we can
00:46:40.614 --> 00:46:42.816
Possibly be.
00:46:42.816 --> 00:46:45.052
Kirk: and you're making me think about all the ways that jesus
00:46:45.052 --> 00:46:47.754
Communicated with people and he would be the archetype of
00:46:47.754 --> 00:46:51.658
Great communication.
00:46:51.658 --> 00:46:53.026
And you're right, just even though jesus is gentle, and
00:46:53.026 --> 00:46:57.731
Meek, and mild, and a heart full of compassion, he's love
00:46:57.731 --> 00:47:01.568
Personified, and he spoke with those kind and gracious words,
00:47:01.568 --> 00:47:05.005
He was also the one who saw moments where the time had come
00:47:05.005 --> 00:47:10.143
To flip the tables in the temple.
00:47:10.143 --> 00:47:12.145
The time had come to call them whitewashed tombs, and ravenous
00:47:12.145 --> 00:47:15.849
Wolves, as paul did, and time to speak harshly against evil and
00:47:15.849 --> 00:47:20.754
To stand up for truth.
00:47:20.754 --> 00:47:22.122
And it really does take discernment and wisdom to know
00:47:22.122 --> 00:47:25.259
The difference, because we live in a culture that tells us it's
00:47:25.259 --> 00:47:28.528
Always time to flip over the tables.
00:47:28.528 --> 00:47:30.297
Gavin: right, yes.
00:47:30.297 --> 00:47:31.632
And none of this is formulaic, all of this is as complicated as
00:47:31.632 --> 00:47:35.168
Life itself, the book doesn't solve every issue.
00:47:35.168 --> 00:47:38.538
But even just to see the value of civil disagreement is a step
00:47:38.538 --> 00:47:42.442
In the right direction.
00:47:42.442 --> 00:47:43.810
Kirk: yes.
00:47:43.810 --> 00:47:45.145
Gavin: we're losing that value.
00:47:45.145 --> 00:47:46.513
A lot of people don't even see this as something that you know,
00:47:46.513 --> 00:47:48.348
We should be aiming towards.
00:47:48.348 --> 00:47:50.317
But here's the final thought i'll give is imagine i was
00:47:50.317 --> 00:47:52.953
Reading in preparation for the book about how thanksgiving
00:47:52.953 --> 00:47:55.689
Meals are getting shorter because people just don't want
00:47:55.689 --> 00:47:58.258
To spend as much time and political disagreements are a
00:47:58.258 --> 00:48:01.928
Factor in that.
00:48:01.928 --> 00:48:03.263
How happy is the thought of being around people you disagree
00:48:03.263 --> 00:48:05.966
With, the meal is over, there's real disagreements, but you can
00:48:05.966 --> 00:48:09.336
Kick back the chair and feel safe, feel heard, feel a sense
00:48:09.336 --> 00:48:13.874
Of love, and feel freedom to talk through the disagreement.
00:48:13.874 --> 00:48:18.312
Don't we want to be like that as followers of christ?
00:48:18.312 --> 00:48:21.448
Kirk: yeah, gavin, thanks so much for being on "takeaways."
00:48:21.448 --> 00:48:23.684
Gavin: my pleasure, thanks for having me.
00:48:23.684 --> 00:48:25.285
Kirk: after the break, we'll review today's takeaways.
00:48:25.285 --> 00:48:28.388
♪♪♪
00:48:28.388 --> 00:48:33.460
♪♪♪
00:48:34.194 --> 00:48:38.998
Kirk: our world is desperate for truth: real, lasting,
00:48:41.468 --> 00:48:45.705
God-centered truth.
00:48:45.705 --> 00:48:47.507
In our conversation with sean mcdowell, that reality became
00:48:47.507 --> 00:48:50.410
Even more clear.
00:48:50.410 --> 00:48:51.778
As followers of jesus, we are called to share the good news,
00:48:51.778 --> 00:48:55.682
Which never changes no matter how much the world around
00:48:55.682 --> 00:48:59.285
Us does.
00:48:59.285 --> 00:49:00.720
But the question is how do we do that in today's culture?
00:49:00.720 --> 00:49:03.823
Here are two powerful takeaways from sean.
00:49:03.823 --> 00:49:07.727
Live with love and humility.
00:49:07.727 --> 00:49:10.797
God's truth doesn't need an upgrade.
00:49:10.797 --> 00:49:13.099
Scripture is not something we tweak to fit the latest
00:49:13.099 --> 00:49:15.935
Cultural trends.
00:49:15.935 --> 00:49:17.437
Instead, we're called to stand firm in it and share it with
00:49:17.437 --> 00:49:21.474
Humility and love.
00:49:21.474 --> 00:49:23.743
That doesn't mean diluting the message to make it
00:49:23.743 --> 00:49:26.045
More comfortable.
00:49:26.045 --> 00:49:27.380
It means speaking boldly, but with grace.
00:49:27.380 --> 00:49:31.117
Sean reminded us that truth shared with a harsh tone can
00:49:31.117 --> 00:49:34.521
Push people away, but when we speak with kindness, sincerity
00:49:34.521 --> 00:49:38.124
And humility, people are more likely to listen.
00:49:38.124 --> 00:49:41.928
It opens the door for genuine conversations and
00:49:41.928 --> 00:49:44.931
Softens hearts.
00:49:44.931 --> 00:49:46.399
Our tone matters just as much as our message, and the world is
00:49:46.399 --> 00:49:50.136
Hungry for authentic, compassionate truth-tellers.
00:49:50.136 --> 00:49:55.375
Don't compromise.
00:49:55.375 --> 00:49:56.776
Know what you believe and why.
00:49:56.776 --> 00:49:59.612
In a culture that promotes your truth and my truth, sean
00:49:59.612 --> 00:50:03.049
Emphasized the need to stand firmly on god's truth,
00:50:03.049 --> 00:50:06.853
Unchanging, eternal, and reliable.
00:50:06.853 --> 00:50:10.356
We can't afford to be vague or uncertain about what we believe.
00:50:10.356 --> 00:50:14.594
He also encouraged us not to fear tough questions.
00:50:14.594 --> 00:50:18.164
If our faith is rooted in truth, then questions won't weaken it,
00:50:18.164 --> 00:50:22.969
They'll help deepen it.
00:50:22.969 --> 00:50:25.038
But that also requires knowing scripture, trusting its
00:50:25.038 --> 00:50:28.141
Authority, and remembering that our emotions are not the
00:50:28.141 --> 00:50:32.045
Final decision-maker.
00:50:32.045 --> 00:50:34.080
God's word is.
00:50:34.080 --> 00:50:35.815
We don't shape god to fit our desires, we surrender to him on
00:50:35.815 --> 00:50:40.320
His terms.
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.021
And then gavin ortlund challenged us to rethink what it
00:50:42.021 --> 00:50:45.658
Means to win an argument.
00:50:45.658 --> 00:50:48.461
It's not about overpowering someone, it's about engaging
00:50:48.461 --> 00:50:52.298
With christ-like character.
00:50:52.298 --> 00:50:54.734
Here's two key takeaways from gavin.
00:50:54.734 --> 00:50:57.704
Disagree with kindness.
00:50:57.704 --> 00:51:00.540
In today's cancel culture, disagreement often leads to
00:51:00.540 --> 00:51:04.077
Division, but gavin reminded us that kindness is not weakness,
00:51:04.077 --> 00:51:08.815
It's our greatest strength.
00:51:08.815 --> 00:51:10.783
Disagreement can actually be healthy, even godly, if we
00:51:10.783 --> 00:51:14.220
Handle it well.
00:51:14.220 --> 00:51:15.622
So when we respond with harshness, we lose people's
00:51:15.622 --> 00:51:19.726
Trust, but if we lead with kindness and sincerity, we
00:51:19.726 --> 00:51:24.197
Build connection.
00:51:24.197 --> 00:51:25.832
So this doesn't mean avoiding truth, it actually means
00:51:25.832 --> 00:51:28.868
Delivering it with grace.
00:51:28.868 --> 00:51:31.604
Jesus did this perfectly.
00:51:31.604 --> 00:51:33.673
His truth was powerful because his love was real.
00:51:33.673 --> 00:51:39.278
And that same sincerity should shape how we speak today.
00:51:39.278 --> 00:51:44.717
Listen and lead with love.
00:51:44.717 --> 00:51:47.587
Listening is an act of love, gavin said, and it's most often
00:51:47.587 --> 00:51:51.324
The most powerful thing we can do.
00:51:51.324 --> 00:51:54.327
True listening shows people they matter even if you disagree
00:51:54.327 --> 00:51:58.231
With them.
00:51:58.231 --> 00:51:59.565
Jesus modeled this beautifully.
00:51:59.565 --> 00:52:01.200
Even when he was wrongly accused, he listened, he engaged
00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:05.371
Hearts, not just arguments.
00:52:05.371 --> 00:52:08.341
Listening with care opens doors to real dialogue and
00:52:08.341 --> 00:52:12.278
Deeper trust.
00:52:12.278 --> 00:52:13.946
Real love doesn't avoid conflict, it shows up with
00:52:13.946 --> 00:52:17.984
Humility, courage, and grace.
00:52:17.984 --> 00:52:21.421
As gavin put it, the art of disagreeing rests on the
00:52:21.421 --> 00:52:25.224
Presence of real love.
00:52:25.224 --> 00:52:27.493
So let's pray for wisdom about what to say, about how to say
00:52:27.493 --> 00:52:31.497
It, and when to simply listen.
00:52:31.497 --> 00:52:34.967
As believers, we are called to disagree differently.
00:52:34.967 --> 00:52:40.039
That's all for this episode of "takeaways."
00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:42.075
Thank you for watching and if you've enjoyed the show, don't
00:52:42.075 --> 00:52:45.278
Forget to set your dvr so you never miss an episode.
00:52:45.278 --> 00:52:48.214
And of course you can always catch up on past episodes by
00:52:48.214 --> 00:52:51.384
Searching for takeaways on tbn+ or by visiting the "kirk cameron
00:52:51.384 --> 00:52:56.456
On tbn" youtube channel.
00:52:56.456 --> 00:52:58.925
We hope to see you here next time for more
00:52:58.925 --> 00:53:01.360
Great conversations.
00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:02.762
♪♪♪
00:53:02.762 --> 00:53:07.600
♪♪♪
00:53:09.569 --> 00:53:21.461

Sean McDowell & Gavin Ortlund: Speaking up with More Conviction and Less Conflict | Takeaways with Kirk Cameron

July 7, 2025 | 55:2

Closed captions

Share